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Should I, or it even smart to hook a volume tank to a compressor that
already has one? I have a two horse Husky, brand new. I have the old volume tank off the deceased Sears oil less screamer. Is this helpful in any way, or does it just make the compressor run twice as long filling up two tanks? Steve |
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Steve
This is done as needed. Sometimes one uses check valves to prevent feedback or duplicate routing or whatever. As long as you watch pressures there is usually no problem. About a year ago I bought a 6 tank system that had a sophisticated array of check valves and the like. I kept all the valves etc and sold the tanks on Ebay. Bob AZ |
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You can connect a large series of tanks to one compressor. It provides
a larger volume of air before the pressure drops enough to turn on the compressor. The connecting lines between the tanks should be larger than the outlet pipe. |
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I put my old 50 gallon tank in the boat shed and ran a line to my new 60
gallon compressor in the shop. I was concerned about wearing out the new compressor but the engineer at the local commercial compressor sales company told me that while it does lengthen the run time it reduces the cycle time so you come out about the same. There is a small drop in efficiency with big tanks because with longer run times the cylinder heats up more and the actual volume of ambient temperature air goes down. The advantage for me is that I don't have the big pressure drop from the long run to the shop.. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "Steve B" wrote in message news:vI3qf.5001$_L5.2801@fed1read06... Should I, or it even smart to hook a volume tank to a compressor that already has one? I have a two horse Husky, brand new. I have the old volume tank off the deceased Sears oil less screamer. Is this helpful in any way, or does it just make the compressor run twice as long filling up two tanks? Steve |
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Greetings:
If you have a long compressed gas pipe run, you can use the second tank at the remote end as an "accumulator", or buffer to supply intermittent high volume demand that the pipeworks otherwise couldn't supply. In between the demand, the system catches up as the remote tank refills at whatever flow rate the pipes allow. Regards, Jim Brown |
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I'd say it's a particularly good idea if you intend to use lots of air
in short bursts, then have some time for the tanks to refill. The only downside that I see is that you will have more connections to keep from leaking. Pete Stanaitis -------------------- Steve B wrote: Should I, or it even smart to hook a volume tank to a compressor that already has one? I have a two horse Husky, brand new. I have the old volume tank off the deceased Sears oil less screamer. Is this helpful in any way, or does it just make the compressor run twice as long filling up two tanks? Steve |
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The two hardest things on a motor are starting up and overheating
Most compressor motors are meant to run without overheating (there is a term specifically for the heavy duty that the application that a compressor motor mafes. And its called "compressor duty" Running Longer and starting less should be easier on the motor than the frequent starts Steve B wrote: Should I, or it even smart to hook a volume tank to a compressor that already has one? I have a two horse Husky, brand new. I have the old volume tank off the deceased Sears oil less screamer. Is this helpful in any way, or does it just make the compressor run twice as long filling up two tanks? Steve |
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"Steve B" wrote in message news:vI3qf.5001$_L5.2801@fed1read06... Should I, or it even smart to hook a volume tank to a compressor that already has one? I have a two horse Husky, brand new. I have the old volume tank off the deceased Sears oil less screamer. Is this helpful in any way, or does it just make the compressor run twice as long filling up two tanks? Steve Good idea, increasing storage capacity and allowing the compressor to cycle less. Make sure that the tank is rated for the pressure involved. Some of the larger compressors cycle on @ 150 PSI and off @ 175 PSI, which is often beyond the pressure of smaller compressors. Could be the tank is marginal for the application, if not under rated. It's not uncommon for single stage compressors to cycle off @ 125 PSI. Harold |
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On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:00:22 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote: I put my old 50 gallon tank in the boat shed and ran a line to my new 60 gallon compressor in the shop. I was concerned about wearing out the new compressor but the engineer at the local commercial compressor sales company told me that while it does lengthen the run time it reduces the cycle time so you come out about the same. There is a small drop in efficiency with big tanks because with longer run times the cylinder heats up more and the actual volume of ambient temperature air goes down. The advantage for me is that I don't have the big pressure drop from the long run to the shop.. I put a 60 G tank on my basement air network in anticipation of installing a main compressor out in the garage when it's finished. Currently I fill the system from a little portable electric compressor. Once it brings the system up to full pressure, it runs for no more time than if the "surge tank" was not there, but it does allow for intermittent very high consumption with minimal pressure drop, and it will provide a cushion when the air is (eventually) coming through 200' of 1/2" black iron pipe. (The little compressor has been running during work hours for six years now with nothing but normal maintenance.) -- --Pete "Peter W. Meek" http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/ |
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I have two older (pre-screamer) traditional Craftsman compressors. I have
them connected in tandem so I will have higher volume when I use the sandblaster or other tools that need higher volume at high pressure. I don't use any check valves at all. The compressors each have their own, between the tank and the compressor outlet port. My shop is over 100 feet long, between my machine shop and an automotive work area on the other end. I put a compressor at each end and my air line (pvc pipe) runs the length of the shop with a tees and two QC outlets every 10 ft. There is also a dirt and water trap at each outlet station. I have one compressor set at the max pressure cut off and the second set a few lbs lower so the second seldom starts and if it does, it is not at the same time (both compressors are on the same circuit breaker so I can turn them both off when I leave the shop.) I have been warned by others, that PVC is not a good idea, but since my shop is so long, I needed a cheap method and so far I have not experienced an problems. We will see if there is when the weather gets well below freezing. The only problem area I can see is in the water traps at each QD tee. -- My experience and opinion, FWIW (the other) Steve |
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In article ,
"Steve" wrote: I have been warned by others, that PVC is not a good idea, but since my shop is so long, I needed a cheap method and so far I have not experienced an problems. Typical PVC pipe air installation problem sequence: No Problem, No Problem, No Problem, No Problem, No Problem, No Problem, No Problem, No Problem, No Problem, BANG, shrapnel, problem. If the shrapnel happens to hit you or some other person, a very expensive problem (or it all becomes someone else's problem, as it's no longer a problem for you). -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by |
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Steve B wrote:
Should I, or it even smart to hook a volume tank to a compressor that already has one? I have a two horse Husky, brand new. I have the old volume tank off the deceased Sears oil less screamer. Is this helpful in any way, or does it just make the compressor run twice as long filling up two tanks? Steve I have done exactly this, and it does beat up the compressor if you are using a lot of air. If you use large volumes sporadically, I don't see a problem. If you leave it on all the time and have sloppy air fittings, it will be dead in a year. |
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"yourname" wrote If you leave it on all the time and have sloppy air fittings, it will be dead in a year. next question: I buy those cheap quick connects at Home Depot. They leak a lot, or some do and some don't. What's a good source of quality quick connects without paying an arm and a leg? Steve |
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You local auto parts store. Milton is the name-brand. If you are more
than a casual hobby user, there are industrial-grade variants that last longer and flow more air. But for most people, the M-type (M for Milton) is probably what you are already using. - - Rex Burkheimer WM Automotive Fort Worth TX Steve B wrote: "yourname" wrote If you leave it on all the time and have sloppy air fittings, it will be dead in a year. next question: I buy those cheap quick connects at Home Depot. They leak a lot, or some do and some don't. What's a good source of quality quick connects without paying an arm and a leg? Steve |
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Steve B wrote:
"yourname" wrote If you leave it on all the time and have sloppy air fittings, it will be dead in a year. next question: I buy those cheap quick connects at Home Depot. They leak a lot, or some do and some don't. What's a good source of quality quick connects without paying an arm and a leg? Steve I buy from msc or mcmaster and have no problems, but understand they have a lifespan. a few years in a busy setting, a few weeks in a wet one. |
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yourname wrote: Steve B wrote: I buy those cheap quick connects at Home Depot. They leak a lot, or some do and some don't. What's a good source of quality quick connects without paying an arm and a leg? Steve I buy from msc or mcmaster and have no problems, but understand they have a lifespan. a few years in a busy setting, a few weeks in a wet one. Milton and most other name-brand couplers have replaceable parts. Heavy use will wear the steel balls into the brass body, make the holes oblong. Then you toss 'em. Lincoln makes a steel-body M-style coupler. If you can find those they last a lot longer. Buy a few sets of replacement seals when you buy them. |
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On 20 Dec 2005 20:08:22 -0800, wrote:
You can connect a large series of tanks to one compressor. It provides a larger volume of air before the pressure drops enough to turn on the compressor. The connecting lines between the tanks should be larger than the outlet pipe. Why do you say that? I use extra tanks to AVOID having to run large lines for long distances. It gives me near-full pressure for high-volume uses and lets the compressor and long lines catch up during "rest" periods. I haven't yet, but I have considered making a 25# propane tank into a surge tank to allow me to run a large air wrench at the end of a long, small hose, with the tank and a short length of larger hose at the point of use. Lugging the tank seems like it would be easier than managing (and buying) such a long piece of 1/2" hose. (I'm talking several hundred feet.) -- --Pete "Peter W. Meek" http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/ |
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On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:11:07 -0800, Steve B wrote:
Should I, or it even smart to hook a volume tank to a compressor that already has one? I have a two horse Husky, brand new. I have the old volume tank off the deceased Sears oil less screamer. Is this helpful in any way, or does it just make the compressor run twice as long filling up two tanks? Steve As long as the tank is serviceable, it will only take longer to fill up both of them the first time. What will probably happen is that you'll get a longer on-time and longer off-time. (IOW, you'll have more air use before the compressor kicks in again, and when it does it will take longer to get to the turn-off setpoint.) There's a possibility that the motor is so close to the hairy edge that it could overheat during the run cycle, but if it doesn't, the benefit is longer off-times. PV = TK, you know. :-) Cheers! Rich |
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On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:56:49 -0500, Peter W. Meek wrote:
On 20 Dec 2005 20:08:22 -0800, wrote: You can connect a large series of tanks to one compressor. It provides a larger volume of air before the pressure drops enough to turn on the compressor. The connecting lines between the tanks should be larger than the outlet pipe. Why do you say that? I use extra tanks to AVOID having to run large lines for long distances. It gives me near-full pressure for high-volume uses and lets the compressor and long lines catch up during "rest" periods. I haven't yet, but I have considered making a 25# propane tank into a surge tank to allow me to run a large air wrench at the end of a long, small hose, with the tank and a short length of larger hose at the point of use. Lugging the tank seems like it would be easier than managing (and buying) such a long piece of 1/2" hose. (I'm talking several hundred feet.) Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? Thanks, Rich |
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Rich Grise wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:56:49 -0500, Peter W. Meek wrote: I haven't yet, but I have considered making a 25# propane tank into a surge tank to allow me to run a large air wrench at the end of a long, small hose, with the tank and a short length of larger hose at the point of use. Lugging the tank seems like it would be easier than managing (and buying) such a long piece of 1/2" hose. (I'm talking several hundred feet.) Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? Yeah. Some guy named Darwin wrote it. |
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On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:54:58 GMT, Rich Grise
wrote: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:56:49 -0500, Peter W. Meek wrote: On 20 Dec 2005 20:08:22 -0800, wrote: You can connect a large series of tanks to one compressor. It provides a larger volume of air before the pressure drops enough to turn on the compressor. The connecting lines between the tanks should be larger than the outlet pipe. Why do you say that? I use extra tanks to AVOID having to run large lines for long distances. It gives me near-full pressure for high-volume uses and lets the compressor and long lines catch up during "rest" periods. I haven't yet, but I have considered making a 25# propane tank into a surge tank to allow me to run a large air wrench at the end of a long, small hose, with the tank and a short length of larger hose at the point of use. Lugging the tank seems like it would be easier than managing (and buying) such a long piece of 1/2" hose. (I'm talking several hundred feet.) Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? If there is such a law, then there are a lot of criminals running around loose. Much better a welded propane tank than the old, riveted, galvanized water heater tank I saw in a pawn shop not too long ago. I didn't examine it too closely - I was afraid to get too close in case it fell over on me. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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"Rich Grise" wrote Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? Thanks, Rich In some states, there's a law against marrying your cousin, too. Doesn't stop some people, though. And the correct wedding gift in that situation is a used propane tank. Steve |
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"Steve B" wrote in message news:gD0rf.7894$_L5.2944@fed1read06... "Rich Grise" wrote Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? Thanks, Rich In some states, there's a law against marrying your cousin, too. Doesn't stop some people, though. And the correct wedding gift in that situation is a used propane tank. Steve VBG! Harold |
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On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:54:58 GMT, Rich Grise
wrote: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:56:49 -0500, Peter W. Meek wrote: On 20 Dec 2005 20:08:22 -0800, wrote: You can connect a large series of tanks to one compressor. It provides a larger volume of air before the pressure drops enough to turn on the compressor. The connecting lines between the tanks should be larger than the outlet pipe. Why do you say that? I use extra tanks to AVOID having to run large lines for long distances. It gives me near-full pressure for high-volume uses and lets the compressor and long lines catch up during "rest" periods. I haven't yet, but I have considered making a 25# propane tank into a surge tank to allow me to run a large air wrench at the end of a long, small hose, with the tank and a short length of larger hose at the point of use. Lugging the tank seems like it would be easier than managing (and buying) such a long piece of 1/2" hose. (I'm talking several hundred feet.) Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? Thanks, Rich If there isn't, there certainly should be in interest of the preservation of bureaucracy. Despite the fact that the design working pressure (not proof pressure) of a propane tank is higher than a single-stage shop compressor can produce -- and considerably higher than the release point of the safety valve that every compressor has or should have -- everyone knows that propane is explosive and there'll always be a few atoms of it left in a propane tank. The sparking of the brushes in an air tool would surely blow up many constituents. I mean, lookit the sparks inside an electric drill, right? Think what they must be like inside a powerful air tool that can tighten lugbolts much tighter than an electric drill can! Just because you don't see any sparks doesn't mean they aren't there, right? There oughtta be a law... |
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"Don Foreman" wrote in message ... On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:54:58 GMT, Rich Grise wrote: On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 07:56:49 -0500, Peter W. Meek wrote: On 20 Dec 2005 20:08:22 -0800, wrote: You can connect a large series of tanks to one compressor. It provides a larger volume of air before the pressure drops enough to turn on the compressor. The connecting lines between the tanks should be larger than the outlet pipe. Why do you say that? I use extra tanks to AVOID having to run large lines for long distances. It gives me near-full pressure for high-volume uses and lets the compressor and long lines catch up during "rest" periods. I haven't yet, but I have considered making a 25# propane tank into a surge tank to allow me to run a large air wrench at the end of a long, small hose, with the tank and a short length of larger hose at the point of use. Lugging the tank seems like it would be easier than managing (and buying) such a long piece of 1/2" hose. (I'm talking several hundred feet.) Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? Thanks, Rich If there isn't, there certainly should be in interest of the preservation of bureaucracy. Despite the fact that the design working pressure (not proof pressure) of a propane tank is higher than a single-stage shop compressor can produce -- and considerably higher than the release point of the safety valve that every compressor has or should have -- everyone knows that propane is explosive and there'll always be a few atoms of it left in a propane tank. The sparking of the brushes in an air tool would surely blow up many constituents. I mean, lookit the sparks inside an electric drill, right? Think what they must be like inside a powerful air tool that can tighten lugbolts much tighter than an electric drill can! Just because you don't see any sparks doesn't mean they aren't there, right? There oughtta be a law... GRIN! H |
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In article , Rich Grise says...
Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? As long as a *new*, unused tank is employed this can be done. I've done that myself in my shop - I found a *new* tank at the local store that was never used, but being sold inexpensively. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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On 24 Dec 2005 07:23:20 -0800, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Rich Grise says... Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? As long as a *new*, unused tank is employed this can be done. I've done that myself in my shop - I found a *new* tank at the local store that was never used, but being sold inexpensively. I don't see why you can't reuse an old Propane tank if it is in a non critical application - I have several 20-Lb. propane tanks with the old valves that I can't find anywhere to get them filled. The 30-Lb tank with the "Visible Jr." gauge is the only one they'll fill. It's cheaper to buy a whole new OPD propane tank than to replace the old POL valve with the new OPD version, but I hate to throw out basically useful stuff. And they've got to be a whole lot safer than the kit for reusing a very thin-wall _disposable_ refrigerant cylinder as an air tank. The big problem is purging the methyl mercaptan stink out of them, short of roasting the open tank in a bonfire which would make them unusable for anything pressurized. Any ideas from you chemists out there? -- Bruce -- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
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On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 20:47:29 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote: On 24 Dec 2005 07:23:20 -0800, jim rozen wrote: In article , Rich Grise says... Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? As long as a *new*, unused tank is employed this can be done. I've done that myself in my shop - I found a *new* tank at the local store that was never used, but being sold inexpensively. I don't see why you can't reuse an old Propane tank if it is in a non critical application - I have several 20-Lb. propane tanks with the old valves that I can't find anywhere to get them filled. The 30-Lb tank with the "Visible Jr." gauge is the only one they'll fill. It's cheaper to buy a whole new OPD propane tank than to replace the old POL valve with the new OPD version, but I hate to throw out basically useful stuff. And they've got to be a whole lot safer than the kit for reusing a very thin-wall _disposable_ refrigerant cylinder as an air tank. The big problem is purging the methyl mercaptan stink out of them, short of roasting the open tank in a bonfire which would make them unusable for anything pressurized. Any ideas from you chemists out there? -- Bruce -- About four purges with air will reduce the propane to an undetectable level, then purge once a day with the tank inverted for about a week gets rid of most of the smell. Using these in the inverted position solves the drain problem caused by the single opening. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
... methyl mercaptan stink out of them,... Any ideas from you chemists out there? Not a chemist, but bleach has worked well for me. Bob |
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Bruce L. Bergman wrote in
: I have several 20-Lb. propane tanks with the old valves that I can't find anywhere to get them filled. Use a Magic Marker to write "Cutting Gas" on the upper area of the tanks THEN get them filled. [Use for Cutting/Brazing is a loophole in the OPD requirements.] |
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On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 21:46:09 -0500, Eregon wrote:
Bruce L. Bergman wrote in : I have several 20-Lb. propane tanks with the old valves that I can't find anywhere to get them filled. Use a Magic Marker to write "Cutting Gas" on the upper area of the tanks THEN get them filled. [Use for Cutting/Brazing is a loophole in the OPD requirements.] You know that, I know that, I even tried printing out and showing them that page of the regulations... But even with a nice permanent P-Touch label "For Industrial Use Only" on each bottle (they were properly recertified and stamped a few years ago) and me in my work shirt with the big silkscreen company logo, holding the weed-burner torch that I use for warming up cold-mix patching asphalt in the other hand, and driving a very obvious work truck with a big stack of ladders on top, I got turned down for refills at two separate LPG stations. Dumbth is rampant. I /might/ be able to find someone in Sun Valley or Downtown L.A. to do it, but if I have to drive 30 miles or more out of my way every time I need to refill a few 5 gallon LP cylinders it simply doesn't make sense. I'll buy a few more of the 7.5 or 10-gallon tanks, those they'll fill without a fight. -- Bruce -- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
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In article , Bruce L. Bergman
says... I don't see why you can't reuse an old Propane tank if it is in a non critical application - The only justification against this I could offer, is to point out that new tanks are probably cheaper than the labor it takes to clean out an old one. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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In article ,
Bruce L. Bergman wrote: On 24 Dec 2005 07:23:20 -0800, jim rozen wrote: In article , Rich Grise says... Isn't there some kind of law against using a propane tank for compressed air? As long as a *new*, unused tank is employed this can be done. I've done that myself in my shop - I found a *new* tank at the local store that was never used, but being sold inexpensively. [snip The big problem is purging the methyl mercaptan stink out of them, short of roasting the open tank in a bonfire which would make them unusable for anything pressurized. Any ideas from you chemists out there? The standard way to get the petroleum smell out of a 55-gallon drum is lots of steam, enough that the entire drum gets up to temperature. Bet it'll work here too. Joe Gwinn |
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Hmmm, I know some good old boys that don't think you need to use a
new, never used propane tank for filling tires. In fact they believe that a perfectly good tank for filling tires is one that has propane in it. I personally have never used propane to presurize a tire. W.W. Grainger sells a device to replace the valve in a propane tank so you can use the tank for compressed air. It has a pressure relief valve, schrader valve, 1/4 inch port for a pressure gauge, and a quarter turn valve to cut off the pressure to the port where you connect a hose. The smell of the methyl mercaptan really isn't a problem if you are using the tank for filling tires. Dan |
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On 25 Dec 2005 21:35:30 -0800, "
wrote: Hmmm, I know some good old boys that don't think you need to use a new, never used propane tank for filling tires. In fact they believe that a perfectly good tank for filling tires is one that has propane in it. I personally have never used propane to presurize a tire. W.W. Grainger sells a device to replace the valve in a propane tank so you can use the tank for compressed air. It has a pressure relief valve, schrader valve, 1/4 inch port for a pressure gauge, and a quarter turn valve to cut off the pressure to the port where you connect a hose. The smell of the methyl mercaptan really isn't a problem if you are using the tank for filling tires. Dan I have a manifold with the fitting for the propane valve on one side, on the other side there a pressure gauge, schraeder valve stem, female quick connect, and a ball valve. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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On 25 Dec 2005 21:35:30 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
" wrote: Hmmm, I know some good old boys that don't think you need to use a new, never used propane tank for filling tires. In fact they believe that a perfectly good tank for filling tires is one that has propane in it. I personally have never used propane to presurize a tire. I want to see the video of the blowout caused when the nail goes through the steel belt and propane starts to leak through the sparks at that point. That'd be better than watching an old movie of some fool getting tossed into the ceiling by a non-secured truck split rim. Calling Mr. Darwin! ---------------------------------------------------------------- * Blessed are those who can * Humorous T-shirts Online * laugh at themselves, for they * Comprehensive Website Dev. * shall never cease to be amused * http://www.diversify.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- |
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It could happen, but you are likely to wait a long time before seeing a
video of a blow out caused by propane in a tire. See http://psc.tamu.edu/safety_alert/03_12_99.htm for information on the upper and lower flamability limits of propane and more important for information on tire sealants. Lots of those use propane to inflate the tire. Dan |
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On 27 Dec 2005 16:47:57 -0800, "
wrote: It could happen, but you are likely to wait a long time before seeing a video of a blow out caused by propane in a tire. See http://psc.tamu.edu/safety_alert/03_12_99.htm for information on the upper and lower flamability limits of propane and more important for information on tire sealants. Lots of those use propane to inflate the tire. Dan We did it for many years up in the north woods on truck and logging tires. Never a boom that I know of, even when changing them, but the tire guy were always informed. One should recall that much of the Fix a Flat cans had propane or butane etc as the propellent until recently. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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