Greetings and Salutations

I doubt this will be a problem encountered by most of those who post here,
but still, a word to the wise is sufficient.

Tuesday night the 16th we had a man killed when, the machine he's been
working at for several months caught him and wrapped him round the shaft. Not
a big shaft, mind you but it is part of a big ass Cincinnati vertical boring
type machine, and it made him fit in the eight inch clearance. (This wasn't
the main table, where the workpiece was, this was off to the side. I've never
worked on one of these, so I don't know what things are called.)
originally I understood it to have been a case of slipping on an oily spot
on the floor, but apparently, what happened was he was cleaning up, and at the
base of the shaft (a bit over an inch in diameter), there's a ring, and a
locking pin which protrudes from that ring. Not much, calling it a half inch
would be over doing it, and out about a quarter inch in diameter. Been these
since Hector was a pup. But it apparently caught the rag and pulled him into
the shaft. Which wrapped him around, like I said, and generally broke parts of
him which didn't help. One of the other workers was passing by when it
happened, but by the time he could hit the emergency off and get the machine
stopped, it was all over but the screaming.

You probably have a greater risk of death or maiming on the freeway to
work, than at work, but ... you can get away with risky behaviors (on the
freeway or off) until the last time, and then is when you say "That was dumb."
Like I said - its the little things, the things you see everyday, the
things which haven't been a problem before, the things you know what you are
doing when around them, and not the great big honking dangerous parts, which
can kill you.

Clean it up, put it away, file the extra bit off the shaft retaining ring
lock pin ... do something now, don't wait till someone else is having to get
you out of the machine to "fix" the problem. It had been fifteen years since
the last fatality, but not since the last injury.

You can't be fearful, but OTOH, lets keep four fingers and a thumb.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

In article , pyotr filipivich
says...

... But it apparently caught the rag and pulled him into
the shaft.

Teenut's insistence on 'no gloves, no rags around
moving spindles' comes to mind. The 'glove' thread
went on for months.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

pyotr filipivich wrote:

what happened was he was cleaning up, and at the base of the
shaft (a bit over an inch in diameter), there's a ring, and a
locking pin which protrudes from that ring.
Clean it up, put it away, file the extra bit off the shaft
retaining ring lock pin ...

The real danger is that any rotating smooth shaft even at fairly
low RPM will grab any fabric and wrap it around the shaft.
A shaft with a protruding pin is actually safer as it scares the
hell out of anyone to stay away from it. Exposed rotating shafts
should ideally have a cover over them. Where that is not possible
the smart operator rolls up his sleeves and does not wear loose
garments that can be grabbed by a rotating shaft. HTH
--
SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS
Have 5 nice days! John
******************************
--- ILN 000.000.001 ---

Attitude is everything. Thursday a young fellow who is full of smarts
jumped on my forklift to ride. When I objected he told me the rulle didn't
apply to him.
Near the end of the day that same guy fell off the deck of a high boy
trailer. He had to take Friday off and likely won't be back until next
year.
It only takes a second to reach over and shut the main power off, put on
your faceshield or get a ladder.
I was told several years ago that it costs a hundred dollars a day to
put a roofer up on a roof in Florida. That is the workers compensation
charges before the employer pays any other wages or benefits. Locally where
I am tree fallers run around 28 dollars Canadian per day.
It is cold to talk in dollars but the amounts reflect the risk and lack
of safety measures.
Randy

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
Greetings and Salutations

I doubt this will be a problem encountered by most of those who post here,
but still, a word to the wise is sufficient.

Tuesday night the 16th we had a man killed when, the machine he's been
working at for several months caught him and wrapped him round the shaft.
Not
a big shaft, mind you but it is part of a big ass Cincinnati vertical
boring
type machine, and it made him fit in the eight inch clearance. (This
wasn't
the main table, where the workpiece was, this was off to the side. I've
never
worked on one of these, so I don't know what things are called.)
originally I understood it to have been a case of slipping on an oily spot
on the floor, but apparently, what happened was he was cleaning up, and at
the
base of the shaft (a bit over an inch in diameter), there's a ring, and a
locking pin which protrudes from that ring. Not much, calling it a half
inch
would be over doing it, and out about a quarter inch in diameter. Been
these
since Hector was a pup. But it apparently caught the rag and pulled him
into
the shaft. Which wrapped him around, like I said, and generally broke
parts of
him which didn't help. One of the other workers was passing by when it
happened, but by the time he could hit the emergency off and get the
machine
stopped, it was all over but the screaming.

You probably have a greater risk of death or maiming on the freeway to
work, than at work, but ... you can get away with risky behaviors (on the
freeway or off) until the last time, and then is when you say "That was
dumb."
Like I said - its the little things, the things you see everyday, the
things which haven't been a problem before, the things you know what you
are
doing when around them, and not the great big honking dangerous parts,
which
can kill you.

Clean it up, put it away, file the extra bit off the shaft retaining ring
lock pin ... do something now, don't wait till someone else is having to
get
you out of the machine to "fix" the problem. It had been fifteen years
since
the last fatality, but not since the last injury.

You can't be fearful, but OTOH, lets keep four fingers and a thumb.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

pyotr filipivich wrote:

Greetings and Salutations



snipped


You can't be fearful, but OTOH, lets keep four fingers and a thumb.

I'll never forget the time about forty years aga when a safety guy from our worker's
compensation insurer visited our shop. He had a pack of hot dogs with him and started
sticking them in moving machinery where fingers shouldn't go.

After he mashed most of them in punch press dies and splattered a few of us with the
hot dog juice which squirted, most of us had our hands behinds our backs balled up
into fists.

I've tried to keep my wits about me ever since, and still have all my digits.

Which reminds me of the particularly insensitive shop monkey who came to work drunk
and chopped off his middle finfer in a press brake. He was so far gone didn't notice
it until quitting time when he reied to say goodbye to the boss.

Happy Holidays,

Jeff (Who survived having the sleeve of his shop coat ripped off by a lathe dog in Jr.
High School metalworking shop, while filing something spinning in a lathe.)


Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone to blame it
on."

I thought I was paranoid about any machines other than a manual pencil
sharpener till I saw someone lay a finger open on one of those. I've had
enough close calls and minor bleeds to still make the little hairs stand up
on my neck every time I hit a power button. My favorite is opening the
quick-change tool holder on the lathe and the handle swung into the moving
chuck...sounded like a gun-shot and I found the big part of the handle 6
months later 50 feet away. Could just as easily holed my melon.


"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
Greetings and Salutations

I doubt this will be a problem encountered by most of those who post here,
but still, a word to the wise is sufficient.

Tuesday night the 16th we had a man killed when, the machine he's been
working at for several months caught him and wrapped him round the shaft.
Not
a big shaft, mind you but it is part of a big ass Cincinnati vertical
boring
type machine, and it made him fit in the eight inch clearance. (This
wasn't
the main table, where the workpiece was, this was off to the side. I've
never
worked on one of these, so I don't know what things are called.)
originally I understood it to have been a case of slipping on an oily spot
on the floor, but apparently, what happened was he was cleaning up, and at
the
base of the shaft (a bit over an inch in diameter), there's a ring, and a
locking pin which protrudes from that ring. Not much, calling it a half
inch
would be over doing it, and out about a quarter inch in diameter. Been
these
since Hector was a pup. But it apparently caught the rag and pulled him
into
the shaft. Which wrapped him around, like I said, and generally broke
parts of
him which didn't help. One of the other workers was passing by when it
happened, but by the time he could hit the emergency off and get the
machine
stopped, it was all over but the screaming.

You probably have a greater risk of death or maiming on the freeway to
work, than at work, but ... you can get away with risky behaviors (on the
freeway or off) until the last time, and then is when you say "That was
dumb."
Like I said - its the little things, the things you see everyday, the
things which haven't been a problem before, the things you know what you
are
doing when around them, and not the great big honking dangerous parts,
which
can kill you.

Clean it up, put it away, file the extra bit off the shaft retaining ring
lock pin ... do something now, don't wait till someone else is having to
get
you out of the machine to "fix" the problem. It had been fifteen years
since
the last fatality, but not since the last injury.

You can't be fearful, but OTOH, lets keep four fingers and a thumb.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

A city wide blackout at Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:20:30 GMT did not prevent John
from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
pyotr filipivich wrote:

what happened was he was cleaning up, and at the base of the
shaft (a bit over an inch in diameter), there's a ring, and a
locking pin which protrudes from that ring.
Clean it up, put it away, file the extra bit off the shaft
retaining ring lock pin ...

The real danger is that any rotating smooth shaft even at fairly
low RPM will grab any fabric and wrap it around the shaft.
A shaft with a protruding pin is actually safer as it scares the
hell out of anyone to stay away from it. Exposed rotating shafts
should ideally have a cover over them. Where that is not possible
the smart operator rolls up his sleeves and does not wear loose
garments that can be grabbed by a rotating shaft. HTH

Yep.

Of course, as a friend used to say "Coordination kills." People think they
can do stuff, and they can, and then they try to do something which they only
think they should be able to do.


As for rolling up sleeves - this is a factory built before the war (which
war, I'm not sure). I'm told the heat works wonderfully from July to late
September, and the A/C from late September to about mid June. (At least I'm
not in the melt and forge shops :-) ) So, it gets cold. "See your breath" and
"drink lots of coffee" kind of cold.

But I take your point: there's a lot of "safety precautions" one needs to
take around machines. And it is the little things, rather than the big honking
dangerous looking parts, which will kill you. Or hurt you badly.

How many times have we heard experienced people say "I didn't think that
was going to work" after they tried something which "backfired." (I remember
an electrician knocking himself on his butt while wiring a stepdown transformer
from 220 to 110v, and saying that very thing.)

Sometimes, it doesn't knock you on your ass, it kills your ass.
Mechanically and without emotion.
--
pyotr filipivich
"We don't support "guns" ... the term "gun" gets in the way of
what is really being talked about here - we want choice in
personal security devices." Ann Coulter

A city wide blackout at Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:22:08 -0500 did not prevent Jeff
Wisnia from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the
following:


You can't be fearful, but OTOH, lets keep four fingers and a thumb.

I'll never forget the time about forty years aga when a safety guy from our worker's
compensation insurer visited our shop. He had a pack of hot dogs with him and started
sticking them in moving machinery where fingers shouldn't go.

After he mashed most of them in punch press dies and splattered a few of us with the
hot dog juice which squirted, most of us had our hands behinds our backs balled up
into fists.

LOL. I've said for years, if you see three or four guys, and one is
gesturing and the rest have their hands in their armpits, you can bet that the
conversation is going to include "and took it off slicker than snot.." or
"mashed that sucker flat" or other expressions maiming.

Lets be safe out there.

peter
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

A city wide blackout at Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:24:46 GMT did not prevent "Tom
Gardner" from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the
following:
I thought I was paranoid about any machines other than a manual pencil
sharpener till I saw someone lay a finger open on one of those. I've had
enough close calls and minor bleeds to still make the little hairs stand up
on my neck every time I hit a power button. My favorite is opening the
quick-change tool holder on the lathe and the handle swung into the moving
chuck...sounded like a gun-shot and I found the big part of the handle 6
months later 50 feet away. Could just as easily holed my melon.

At the school I'm attending, in the grinding "alcove" there is a dent in
the wall about five, six feet up. Came from a handle left on a Bridgeport
vertical mill on the other side of the shop, some fifty yards away. Some one
"forgot" it was up their when they applied power. revolve, revolve, zip -
"clang"! "Teacher, can I be excuse to change my shorts?"


peter

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

A city wide blackout at 21 Dec 2003 06:47:58 -0800 did not prevent jim rozen
from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the
following:
In article , pyotr filipivich
says...

... But it apparently caught the rag and pulled him into
the shaft.

Teenut's insistence on 'no gloves, no rags around
moving spindles' comes to mind. The 'glove' thread
went on for months.

Not a bad idea. I wear gloves for setup do handle cold chains, hooks,
wrenches and the like. But for "fussy" or around the rollers, the gloves come
off.

Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:22:08 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

I'll never forget the time about forty years aga when a safety guy from our worker's
compensation insurer visited our shop. He had a pack of hot dogs with him and started
sticking them in moving machinery where fingers shouldn't go.

A friend and I do a fair bit of plasma cutting. Curious as to what the
one-day inevitable accident will look like, we stuck some spare
barbecue sausages into an old welding glove and went at it with the
plasma. An interesting experiment !

(We think it's going to hurt, but not do lasting damage unless you
leave your hand underneath the nozzle)

--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:22:08 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

I'll never forget the time about forty years aga when a safety guy from our worker's
compensation insurer visited our shop. He had a pack of hot dogs with him and started
sticking them in moving machinery where fingers shouldn't go.

A friend and I do a fair bit of plasma cutting. Curious as to what the
one-day inevitable accident will look like, we stuck some spare
barbecue sausages into an old welding glove and went at it with the
plasma. An interesting experiment !

(We think it's going to hurt, but not do lasting damage unless you
leave your hand underneath the nozzle)

--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.
about 6 months ago there was a show on tv that showed a new circular saw
that was being sold that the operator held a hot dog by the blade.. when
the blade hit the hot dog it quit and the electric brake went on and the
hot dog just had a little nick in it... unlike a finger that might have
been cut off with an older saw(one without this new brake)..... i never
did see them hit the market.. like the $35 plastic circular saws of now
would have to cost about $140 or more... $35 for the saw and $110 for
the new brake??????

I got a cotton mill glove caught on the shank of a spade drill my second
year in our shop.

G&L 5"horizontal boring mill.

Chips leaving the hole snagged the glove.
Glove followed the slowly rotating shank.
Eventually, the glove broke, but by that time, part of the spindle snagged
the side of my uniform shirt.
The shirt wrapped me like a tourniquet.
Fortunately, the only other co-worker in the plant at the time came to my
rescue.

3 broken ribs and a month off work.

I was VERY lucky. It could just have well been lost fingers or a lost arm.


Greetings and Salutations

I doubt this will be a problem encountered by most of those who post here,
but still, a word to the wise is sufficient.

Tuesday night the 16th we had a man killed when, the machine he's been
working at for several months caught him and wrapped him round the shaft.

snip

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:10:13 GMT, pyotr filipivich
wrote:


At the school I'm attending, in the grinding "alcove" there is a dent in
the wall about five, six feet up. Came from a handle left on a
Bridgeport
vertical mill on the other side of the shop, some fifty yards away.
Some one
"forgot" it was up their when they applied power. revolve, revolve, zip
-
"clang"! "Teacher, can I be excuse to change my shorts?"


That's better than "revolve, revolve, zip, thunk"

chem



--
- I am not a machinist, just a student in a pre-apprentice machining
course. Any advice, opinions, etc, are taken from my very limited
knowledge base and should be treated accordingly.
- www.xanga.com/chemgurl
- take out the trash to reply by email
- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Greetings and Salutations.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:13:08 GMT, jim wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:
*snip*
about 6 months ago there was a show on tv that showed a new circular saw
that was being sold that the operator held a hot dog by the blade.. when
the blade hit the hot dog it quit and the electric brake went on and the
hot dog just had a little nick in it... unlike a finger that might have
been cut off with an older saw(one without this new brake)..... i never
did see them hit the market.. like the $35 plastic circular saws of now
would have to cost about $140 or more... $35 for the saw and $110 for
the new brake??????
Yea, that system, called "the Saw Stop", has been quite a
point of discussion over on the woodworking newsgroup. Seems that
the manufacturer/inventor did all these demos (about a year or so
ago, actually), and tried to sell it to the manufacturers as a
safety device. However, they could not sell it, because of several
problems - including the fact that it would have added $200 or so to
the cost of the saw. It also has a fairly expensive ($50 or so)
cartridge that needs replacing when the thing triggers. Finally
(at least in my mind) there was the question of long-term reliability.
After all, if one of these things fails and a consumer's body gets
chewed up, the liability lawyers would have a field day.
Alternatively, if age causes it to misfire at random moments,
it will be an expensive add-on for the consumer - not to mention
the annoyance of being half-way through a project on a Saturday
night, and NOT being able to get the saw back up and running.
Another problem is that this is not an "add-on". It has to be
engineered into the saw itself, so is a major re-design.
Well, a few months ago, the creator of the system, in the
spirit of the automobile insurance industry and a number of other
annoying scams, tried to make an end-run around the lack of consumer
support by getting a bill through Congress that would have mandated
the system on all table saws sold in the USA. I believe that, after
a great outcry, the bill was quietly dropped. However, it was
pretty danged annoying as it was such a blatant attempt to force
money out of our pockets for a bit of technology that was
problematical at best.
Oh yea...the lack of consumer appeal was proved by the fact
that although they DO "offer" the saws on their website
(www.sawstop.com), there is no evidence that any of these saws
exist or have been sold, in spite of being "available" for a year
or more.
Regards
Dave Mundt

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:13:08 GMT, jim wrote:

about 6 months ago there was a show on tv that showed a new circular saw
that was being sold that the operator held a hot dog by the blade.. when
the blade hit the hot dog it quit and the electric brake went on and the
hot dog just had a little nick in it...

SawStop - read rec.woodworking for more discussion of it.

Dreadful company. They're trying to play the liability card and hoping
for government intervention to make their frippery gadget mandatory on
all new saws.

However as any woodworker can tell you, blade+finger accidents are
rare. In Europe they're almost unheard of, because we use much better
guarding than is usual in the USA (as in we use any guards - the USA
generally doesn't).

What gets woodworkers is a "kickback" accident, where the blade picks
up the piece of timber and throws it at you. The SawStop does nothing
to avoid such accidents and it encourages a feeling of false security.
There's a simple no-moving-parts device called a "riving knife" that's
again usual practice in Europe and avoids most kickback accidents -
however they're not widely used in the USA.

--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

The guy with the hot dogs probably saved his company millions of
dollars every year, just by putting a little scare into guys who
had gotten too complacent.

I've had a couple of close calls in the shop, like getting a fingernail
broken or an "acid brush" wrapped around an end mill and then thrown
across the room. I now use old toothbrushes for chip clearing and
applying cutting lube. They behave a LOT better than those metal-handle
acid brushes.

But, the worst injuries I've had were with unpowered tools. I dropped
a 30 Lb scraping straightedge on my big toe, and limped around for
months. And, I wrenched my back working a 24 x 36" surface plate out
of the back of my car. That one may never heal, and every time I
overload the bad disc, it flares up again. Damn!

Jon

jim wrote in :

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:22:08 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

I'll never forget the time about forty years aga when a safety guy
from our worker's compensation insurer visited our shop. He had a
pack of hot dogs with him and started sticking them in moving
machinery where fingers shouldn't go.

A friend and I do a fair bit of plasma cutting. Curious as to what
the one-day inevitable accident will look like, we stuck some spare
barbecue sausages into an old welding glove and went at it with the
plasma. An interesting experiment !

(We think it's going to hurt, but not do lasting damage unless you
leave your hand underneath the nozzle)

--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.
about 6 months ago there was a show on tv that showed a new circular
saw that was being sold that the operator held a hot dog by the
blade.. when the blade hit the hot dog it quit and the electric brake
went on and the hot dog just had a little nick in it... unlike a
finger that might have been cut off with an older saw(one without this
new brake)..... i never did see them hit the market.. like the $35
plastic circular saws of now would have to cost about $140 or more...
$35 for the saw and $110 for the new brake??????


http://www.sawstop.com/video.htm

--
Dave W a.a.#1967

Jon Elson wrote:

But, the worst injuries I've had were with unpowered tools. I dropped
a 30 Lb scraping straightedge on my big toe, and limped around for
months. And, I wrenched my back working a 24 x 36" surface plate out
of the back of my car. That one may never heal, and every time I
overload the bad disc, it flares up again. Damn!

I've had to learn the hard way that endmills can
cause a nasty cut even when the spindle is standing
still.

pyotr filipivich wrote:

Greetings and Salutations

I doubt this will be a problem encountered by most of those who post here,
but still, a word to the wise is sufficient.

Tuesday night the 16th we had a man killed when, the machine he's been
working at for several months caught him and wrapped him round the shaft. Not
a big shaft, mind you but it is part of a big ass Cincinnati vertical boring
type machine, and it made him fit in the eight inch clearance. (This wasn't
the main table, where the workpiece was, this was off to the side. I've never
worked on one of these, so I don't know what things are called.)
originally I understood it to have been a case of slipping on an oily spot
on the floor, but apparently, what happened was he was cleaning up, and at the
base of the shaft (a bit over an inch in diameter), there's a ring, and a
locking pin which protrudes from that ring. Not much, calling it a half inch
would be over doing it, and out about a quarter inch in diameter. Been these
since Hector was a pup. But it apparently caught the rag and pulled him into
the shaft. Which wrapped him around, like I said, and generally broke parts of
him which didn't help. One of the other workers was passing by when it
happened, but by the time he could hit the emergency off and get the machine
stopped, it was all over but the screaming.

You probably have a greater risk of death or maiming on the freeway to
work, than at work, but ... you can get away with risky behaviors (on the
freeway or off) until the last time, and then is when you say "That was dumb."
Like I said - its the little things, the things you see everyday, the
things which haven't been a problem before, the things you know what you are
doing when around them, and not the great big honking dangerous parts, which
can kill you.

Clean it up, put it away, file the extra bit off the shaft retaining ring
lock pin ... do something now, don't wait till someone else is having to get
you out of the machine to "fix" the problem. It had been fifteen years since
the last fatality, but not since the last injury.

You can't be fearful, but OTOH, lets keep four fingers and a thumb.

tschus
pyotr

Something for us all to remember. I wonder if sticking a little
metal plaque on every machine that has caused a serrious injury (listing
what, when and maybe who) would make a difference or if that might be to
morbid...
Ken

In article , Dave Mundt wrote:
Greetings and Salutations.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:13:08 GMT, jim wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:
*snip*
about 6 months ago there was a show on tv that showed a new circular saw
that was being sold that the operator held a hot dog by the blade.. when
the blade hit the hot dog it quit and the electric brake went on and the
hot dog just had a little nick in it... unlike a finger that might have
.... Oh yea...the lack of consumer appeal was proved by the fact
that although they DO "offer" the saws on their website
(www.sawstop.com), there is no evidence that any of these saws
exist or have been sold, in spite of being "available" for a year
or more. Regards Dave Mundt

so what _is_ the operative technology? the must be some part of it
that senses moisture, right? --Loren

When I started work with my Bridgeport about 15 years ago, I noticed dents
in the labeled plate on the front of the power switch and wondered how they
got there. A couple of years later, I found out right after I forgot to
remove the box end drawbar wrench from the drawbar hex before firing up. It
felt like someone hit the knuckles on my left hand with a sledgehammer! No
permanent damage, but I sure as hell check for that wrench now.

RJ

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
A city wide blackout at Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:24:46 GMT did not prevent
"Tom
Gardner" from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the
following:
I thought I was paranoid about any machines other than a manual pencil
sharpener till I saw someone lay a finger open on one of those. I've had
enough close calls and minor bleeds to still make the little hairs stand
up
on my neck every time I hit a power button. My favorite is opening the
quick-change tool holder on the lathe and the handle swung into the
moving
chuck...sounded like a gun-shot and I found the big part of the handle 6
months later 50 feet away. Could just as easily holed my melon.

At the school I'm attending, in the grinding "alcove" there is a dent in
the wall about five, six feet up. Came from a handle left on a Bridgeport
vertical mill on the other side of the shop, some fifty yards away. Some
one
"forgot" it was up their when they applied power. revolve, revolve, zip -
"clang"! "Teacher, can I be excuse to change my shorts?"


peter

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 23:35:13 GMT, "Jon Grimm"
brought forth from the murky depths:

I got a cotton mill glove caught on the shank of a spade drill my second
year in our shop.

G&L 5"horizontal boring mill.

Chips leaving the hole snagged the glove.
Glove followed the slowly rotating shank.
Eventually, the glove broke, but by that time, part of the spindle snagged
the side of my uniform shirt.
The shirt wrapped me like a tourniquet.
Fortunately, the only other co-worker in the plant at the time came to my
rescue.

3 broken ribs and a month off work.

I was VERY lucky. It could just have well been lost fingers or a lost arm.

One would think that people who had gone through that would
start shopping at the Chippendale Store for tearaway clothing.



================================================== ========
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming

Andy Dingley wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:13:08 GMT, jim wrote:

about 6 months ago there was a show on tv that showed a new circular saw
that was being sold that the operator held a hot dog by the blade.. when
the blade hit the hot dog it quit and the electric brake went on and the
hot dog just had a little nick in it...

SawStop - read rec.woodworking for more discussion of it.

Dreadful company. They're trying to play the liability card and hoping
for government intervention to make their frippery gadget mandatory on
all new saws.

The company that invented the saw stop is trying to cram it up our ass
via the regulatory route and I hope they fail.


The majority of hand injuries involving the table saw are from
reaching beyond the saw blade and contacting it and being pulled back
in. Somehow little bits of offcut dancing on the table manage to
hypnotize the operator into being stupid for just a second.
The rim speed of your average tablesaw is about 180mph so kickbacks
can get rather interesting as well.

The old Monarch lathe at work is nothing but brute power. I often
thought while using it, if one was to get caught would it even slow it
down or make it grunt. I know things would give, but it would not be
lathe parts.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

Greetings and Salutations.

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 01:24:00 GMT, Loren Coe
wrote:

In article , Dave Mundt wrote:
Greetings and Salutations.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:13:08 GMT, jim wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:
*snip*
about 6 months ago there was a show on tv that showed a new circular saw
that was being sold that the operator held a hot dog by the blade.. when
the blade hit the hot dog it quit and the electric brake went on and the
hot dog just had a little nick in it... unlike a finger that might have
... Oh yea...the lack of consumer appeal was proved by the fact
that although they DO "offer" the saws on their website
(www.sawstop.com), there is no evidence that any of these saws
exist or have been sold, in spite of being "available" for a year
or more. Regards Dave Mundt

so what _is_ the operative technology? the must be some part of it
that senses moisture, right? --Loren


According to the website, it injects an RF frequency into the
sawblade. This signal gets "damped" when skin touches the metal
blade. This dampening effect is sensed by the circuitry, which
then jams a rod into the blade to stop its rotate. I believe that
it also drops the blade below the surface of the saw, too...
It does need to be 'defeated' when cutting metal, of course.
I am unclear as to how the signal is kept off the REST of the saw,
so simply resting one's hand on the saw top would trigger it.
Regards
Dave Mundt

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:13:08 GMT, jim wrote:

about 6 months ago there was a show on tv that showed a new circular
saw that was being sold that the operator held a hot dog by the
blade.. when the blade hit the hot dog it quit and the electric
brake went on and the hot dog just had a little nick in it...

SawStop - read rec.woodworking for more discussion of it.

Dreadful company. They're trying to play the liability card and hoping
for government intervention to make their frippery gadget mandatory on
all new saws.

However as any woodworker can tell you, blade+finger accidents are
rare. In Europe they're almost unheard of, because we use much better
guarding than is usual in the USA (as in we use any guards - the USA
generally doesn't).

What gets woodworkers is a "kickback" accident, where the blade picks
up the piece of timber and throws it at you. The SawStop does nothing
to avoid such accidents and it encourages a feeling of false security.
There's a simple no-moving-parts device called a "riving knife" that's
again usual practice in Europe and avoids most kickback accidents -
however they're not widely used in the USA.

I use one in my Unisaw- it's easily removable, and for most operations it's
virtually unnoticed. I cringe when I see some idiot cross-cutting plywood
against the fence (the same guys are too cool to use a splitter or a guard,
of course)

Ken Vale wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:

Greetings and Salutations

I doubt this will be a problem encountered by most of those who post
here, but still, a word to the wise is sufficient.

Tuesday night the 16th we had a man killed when, the machine he's
been working at for several months caught him and wrapped him round
the shaft. Not a big shaft, mind you but it is part of a big ass
Cincinnati vertical boring type machine, and it made him fit in the
eight inch clearance. (This wasn't the main table, where the
workpiece was, this was off to the side. I've never worked on one
of these, so I don't know what things are called.) originally I
understood it to have been a case of slipping on an oily spot on the
floor, but apparently, what happened was he was cleaning up, and at
the base of the shaft (a bit over an inch in diameter), there's a
ring, and a locking pin which protrudes from that ring. Not much,
calling it a half inch would be over doing it, and out about a
quarter inch in diameter. Been these since Hector was a pup. But
it apparently caught the rag and pulled him into the shaft. Which
wrapped him around, like I said, and generally broke parts of him
which didn't help. One of the other workers was passing by when it
happened, but by the time he could hit the emergency off and get the
machine stopped, it was all over but the screaming.

You probably have a greater risk of death or maiming on the freeway
to work, than at work, but ... you can get away with risky behaviors
(on the freeway or off) until the last time, and then is when you
say "That was dumb." Like I said - its the little things, the things
you see everyday, the things which haven't been a problem before,
the things you know what you are doing when around them, and not the
great big honking dangerous parts, which can kill you.

Clean it up, put it away, file the extra bit off the shaft retaining
ring lock pin ... do something now, don't wait till someone else is
having to get you out of the machine to "fix" the problem. It had
been fifteen years since the last fatality, but not since the last
injury.

You can't be fearful, but OTOH, lets keep four fingers and a thumb.

tschus
pyotr

Something for us all to remember. I wonder if sticking a little
metal plaque on every machine that has caused a serrious injury
(listing what, when and maybe who) would make a difference or if that
might be to morbid...
Ken

like the crosses marking roadside deaths, the power of suggestion might have
the opposite, unintended effect of focussing attention on injuries instead
of safety.

In article ,
(Beecrofter) wrote:

The rim speed of your average tablesaw is about 180mph so kickbacks
can get rather interesting as well.

Ain't that the truth! Once watched a 2x12x16 being ripped down to become
a pair of 2x6x16s. About 2 1/2 or 3 feet into the cut, maybe a little
more, I glanced down at what I was doing, and I guess something jammed,
'cause the next thing I knew, I heard a BANG, and the shop teacher was
cussing so hard there seemed to be a blue cloud forming around his head.
When I looked, the two guys who'd been feeding the board were standing
there with their mouths hanging open, giving each other looks that
positively dripped "What in the name of every demon in hell just
happened???", and the board was on the other side of the room,
splintered and cracked along about 2-3 feet of its length against the
freshly cracked concrete block wall. I never did know for certain what
caused it, but from that day on, you better believe I had (and still
have!) a SERIOUSLY healthy respect for what kind of damage a table saw
can do even if you DON'T get bit by the blade directly!

--
Don Bruder - --- Preferred Email - SpamAssassinated.
Hate SPAM? See http://www.spamassassin.org for some seriously great info.
I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart
Fly trap info pages: http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html

A city wide blackout at Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:36:59 +0000 did not prevent Andy
Dingley from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the
following:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:22:08 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

I'll never forget the time about forty years aga when a safety guy from our worker's
compensation insurer visited our shop. He had a pack of hot dogs with him and started
sticking them in moving machinery where fingers shouldn't go.

A friend and I do a fair bit of plasma cutting. Curious as to what the
one-day inevitable accident will look like, we stuck some spare
barbecue sausages into an old welding glove and went at it with the
plasma. An interesting experiment !

(We think it's going to hurt, but not do lasting damage unless you
leave your hand underneath the nozzle)

Its always going to hurt! Pain is mother nature's way of saying "Don't do
that again you dumb f*cker!"

Some learn by other people's mistakes. Some are other people.

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

A city wide blackout at Mon, 22 Dec 2003 02:34:52 GMT did not prevent
(Roy) from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the
following:
The old Monarch lathe at work is nothing but brute power. I often
thought while using it, if one was to get caught would it even slow it
down or make it grunt. I know things would give, but it would not be
lathe parts.

LOL. As I said describing this accident to non-shoppies: something with
the horsepower to move that much metal isn't going to notice a hundredweight
plus of meat. It will make you fit through the clearance..


Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

In article om,
Tom Gardner wrote:

[ ... ]

on my neck every time I hit a power button. My favorite is opening the
quick-change tool holder on the lathe and the handle swung into the moving
chuck...sounded like a gun-shot and I found the big part of the handle 6
months later 50 feet away. Could just as easily holed my melon.

Just out of curiosity -- was that a piston-style quick-change
toolpost? My Phase-II BXA size (series 200) wedge style won't swing the
handle far enough to contact the chuck. And I'm certainly glad of it.

Glad that it missed you.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 21 Dec 2003 18:26:11 -0800, (Beecrofter) wrote:


Dreadful company. They're trying to play the liability card and hoping
for government intervention to make their frippery gadget mandatory on
all new saws.

The company that invented the saw stop is trying to cram it up our ass
via the regulatory route and I hope they fail.

Sorta like gun control and trigger locks one would assume?

Gunner

'If you own a gun and have a swimming pool in the yard, the swimming
pool is almost 100 times more likely to kill a child than the gun is.'"
Steven Levitt, UOC prof.

Check out this series of articles for your back:
http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/back.php

Karl

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
The guy with the hot dogs probably saved his company millions of
dollars every year, just by putting a little scare into guys who
had gotten too complacent.

I've had a couple of close calls in the shop, like getting a fingernail
broken or an "acid brush" wrapped around an end mill and then thrown
across the room. I now use old toothbrushes for chip clearing and
applying cutting lube. They behave a LOT better than those metal-handle
acid brushes.

But, the worst injuries I've had were with unpowered tools. I dropped
a 30 Lb scraping straightedge on my big toe, and limped around for
months. And, I wrenched my back working a 24 x 36" surface plate out
of the back of my car. That one may never heal, and every time I
overload the bad disc, it flares up again. Damn!

Jon

SNIP

Something for us all to remember. I wonder if sticking a little
metal plaque on every machine that has caused a serrious injury
(listing what, when and maybe who) would make a difference or if that
might be to morbid...
Ken

like the crosses marking roadside deaths, the power of suggestion might have
the opposite, unintended effect of focussing attention on injuries instead
of safety.

There's a truck I see around the Seattle area with these words on the
mud flaps:
"You can't be first but you can be next." and,
"If you can't stop, smile as you go under"
ERS

In article ,

Something for us all to remember. I wonder if sticking a little
metal plaque on every machine that has caused a serrious injury
(listing what, when and maybe who) would make a difference or if that
might be to morbid...

I think it would be more instructive to stick a little metal plaque on
the forehead of every person who gbot himself injured by a machine.
I'll bet some people would be covered by plaques and most people would
have none.

--
free men own guns - slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

In article , Nick Hull says...

I think it would be more instructive to stick a little metal plaque on
the forehead of every person who gbot himself injured by a machine.
I'll bet some people would be covered by plaques and most people would
have none.

Ha ha. That's truly hilarious! Reminds me of the
movie _Gung_Ho_ where one character tells another
one that the ribbons on his jacket are really
pretty, and he replies "THOSE ARE BADGES OF SHAME!"
Folks should be required to wear a placard of their
IQ stapled to their forehead.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:04:56 -0600, Jon Elson wrote:

snip

But, the worst injuries I've had were with unpowered tools. I dropped
a 30 Lb scraping straightedge on my big toe, and limped around for
months. And, I wrenched my back working a 24 x 36" surface plate out
of the back of my car. That one may never heal, and every time I
overload the bad disc, it flares up again. Damn!

Jon

I was explaining to my five year old daughter how dangerous saws were, while
using a 3 foot bow saw to cut up some scrap wood for a bonfire. As I
explained, the saw bounced and ran over my index finger. Ten years later I
still have the scar.

Mark Rand
RTFM

Hi All,

Just wondering if anyone knows what the axial stiffness of a bridgeport
or clone spindle is?

I've seen some 40 taper spindles listed in the 500,000lbs/in for two
bearings at the tool end, ranging up to 900,000 lbs/in for a 3 bearing
(at the tool end) unit. I'm sure big mills go way higher.

My BP clone's manual doesn't specify spindle stiffness and that has made
me curious.

TIA,

Cheers, Peter

In article , Mark Rand says...

I was explaining to my five year old daughter how dangerous saws were, while
using a 3 foot bow saw to cut up some scrap wood for a bonfire. As I
explained, the saw bounced and ran over my index finger. Ten years later I
still have the scar.

Funny how daughters seem to have that effect. Mine
stills says, 'remember that time dad was showing
me how dangerous really sharp knives are...."

Jim

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