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Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
Just what is involved with filling a new propane tank. I just bought a
brand new 100# tank. Took it to a gas supplier to get filled, and they want a $25.00 initial fee supposedly to purge it..........what gives. If its empty its empty. Its got the standard type of valve (OPD not required on a 100# cylinder) so it can be opened and any air inside can be vented to the atmosphere. Am I missing something here? Called two others and they also said the tank needs to be purged since its new.........I have bought new 20# and never had to have them purged . I smell a rip off for some reason. Maybe I just need to transfer some gas to give it a used smell into this new cylinder and then act like its been filled before. Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com Opinions expressed are those of my wifes, I had no input whatsoever. Remove "nospam" from email addy. |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
"Roy" wrote in message ... Just what is involved with filling a new propane tank. I just bought a brand new 100# tank. Took it to a gas supplier to get filled, and they want a $25.00 initial fee supposedly to purge it..........what gives. If its empty its empty. Its got the standard type of valve (OPD not required on a 100# cylinder) so it can be opened and any air inside can be vented to the atmosphere. Am I missing something here? Called two others and they also said the tank needs to be purged since its new.........I have bought new 20# and never had to have them purged . I smell a rip off for some reason. Have you considered the explosive potential of mixing propane with the air (oxygen) contained within the tank? Once the tank has been purged, it should be free of oxygen, which is the chief reason for purging them originally. You dodged a bullet if you didn't have other tanks purged. Harold |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
"Roy" wrote in message ... Just what is involved with filling a new propane tank. I just bought a brand new 100# tank. Took it to a gas supplier to get filled, and they want a $25.00 initial fee supposedly to purge it..........what gives. If its empty its empty. Its got the standard type of valve (OPD not required on a 100# cylinder) so it can be opened and any air inside can be vented to the atmosphere. Am I missing something here? Called two others and they also said the tank needs to be purged since its new.........I have bought new 20# and never had to have them purged . I smell a rip off for some reason. Maybe I just need to transfer some gas to give it a used smell into this new cylinder and then act like its been filled before. Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com Opinions expressed are those of my wifes, I had no input whatsoever. Remove "nospam" from email addy. Tis SOP! Will prevent problems down the road. You have to get all the air/oxygen & moisture out, you just want propane vapor/gas. But sounds like $25 is a bit much! How much ya paying per gallon for the propane? The last time I did this, it was like $5 more for the purge. Lane |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
Roy wrote: Just what is involved with filling a new propane tank. I just bought a brand new 100# tank. Took it to a gas supplier to get filled, and they want a $25.00 initial fee supposedly to purge it..........what gives. If its empty its empty. Its got the standard type of valve (OPD not required on a 100# cylinder) so it can be opened and any air inside can be vented to the atmosphere. Am I missing something here? Called two others and they also said the tank needs to be purged since its new.........I have bought new 20# and never had to have them purged . I smell a rip off for some reason. Maybe I just need to transfer some gas to give it a used smell into this new cylinder and then act like its been filled before. Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com Opinions expressed are those of my wifes, I had no input whatsoever. Remove "nospam" from email addy. So, what is considered a "safe and acceptable" standard purging routine for propane containers? Does it involve evacuating the cylinder to some negative pressure (without imploding it of course) and then backfilling it with propane? Or is it some number of cycles of squirting in some amount of propane and letting the air/propane mixture vent out of the container? Jeff -- Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone to blame it on." |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Does it involve evacuating the cylinder to some negative pressure (without imploding it of course) Assuming the tank is built to take significantly more than 2 atm of positive pressure, could you possibly implode it even if it had a perfect vacuum inside? |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
Jeff Wisnia wrote: So, what is considered a "safe and acceptable" standard purging routine for propane containers? snipped Googled this up at several locations...: ************************************************** ****************************************** Have your LP-gas container purged. It only takes a few minutes and your LP-gas dealer is equipped to perform this service (see NPGA bulletin 133-a). To purge a container, the following steps should be taken: 1. Purging of containers should be performed in an approved area (see NFPA #58) 2. Determine if the container pressure is zero. Should the container contain only air pressure, the air may be vented directly to the atmosphere through the service valve. 3. If free water is present in the container, it should be drained. 4. Pressurize the container to approximately 15 PSIG with LP-gas vapor. Never purge with liquid LP-gas; to do so will cause the moisture vapor to chill and remain in the container. 5. Fully open the container service valve and vent safely to the atmosphere. 6. Repeat the fourth and fifth steps for a total of five purgings. ************************************************** ********************************************* Jeff -- Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone to blame it on." |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:56:48 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote: 4. Pressurize the container to approximately 15 PSIG with LP-gas vapor. Never purge with liquid LP-gas; to do so will cause the moisture vapor to chill and remain in the container. 5. Fully open the container service valve and vent safely to the atmosphere. 6. Repeat the fourth and fifth steps for a total of five purgings. And exactly how is doing this making the tank safer than if it were filled without purging? As soon as the tank goes from zero pressure to 15psi the first time, the contents are no longer an explosion hazard. So why pressurize and vent? Is it simply to remove air because the air may contain moisture? Dave |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:56:48 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote: === === ===Jeff Wisnia wrote: === === === === So, what is considered a "safe and acceptable" standard purging routine === for propane containers? === === ===snipped === ===Googled this up at several locations...: === ===******************************************** ************************************************ === ===Have your LP-gas container purged. It only takes a few minutes and your LP-gas ===dealer is equipped to perform this service (see NPGA bulletin 133-a). === ===To purge a container, the following steps should be taken: === ===1. Purging of containers should be performed in an approved area (see NFPA ===#58) === ===2. Determine if the container pressure is zero. Should the container contain ===only air pressure, the air may be vented directly to the atmosphere through ===the service valve. === ===3. If free water is present in the container, it should be drained. === ===4. Pressurize the container to approximately 15 PSIG with LP-gas vapor. Never ===purge with liquid LP-gas; to do so will cause the moisture vapor to chill and ===remain in the container. === ===5. Fully open the container service valve and vent safely to the atmosphere. === ===6. Repeat the fourth and fifth steps for a total of five purgings. === ===******************************************** ************************************************** * === ===Jeff Well I can buy the reasoning behind it, but at 25 a whack is out of line. I'll carry it to the dealer that I usually use to get my fills. These others were on my way home and I stopped by to see about getting it filled. The others I called on the phone, as my regular dealer is closed today after 12 noon. He has been in business for 49 years now, so he should know what the story is and how to handle it. I pay $7.35 for a 20# refill from this fellow. But if there is propane in the tank he will weigh it and only charge you for what he puts in it, unlike the others that you pay a flat fee regardless of how much may be left in it. Thats one reason I was going to get it filled at the other places as my dealer is further away and these were on my way and the tank was empty anyhow. I sure don;t know how folks pay those high prices at places like Lowes and wally world for 20# refills. Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com Opinions expressed are those of my wifes, I had no input whatsoever. Remove "nospam" from email addy. |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
Roy wrote: Just what is involved with filling a new propane tank. I just bought a brand new 100# tank. Took it to a gas supplier to get filled, and they want a $25.00 initial fee supposedly to purge it.......... What a rip off. Far as I knew we purged new tanks for free. Tanks are purges to prevent odorant fade. -- Mark N.E. Ohio Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A. Mark Twain) When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense. (Gaz, r.moto) |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:18:53 GMT, (Roy) wrote:
Just what is involved with filling a new propane tank. snip Here are a couple of links for the how and why: http://www.regoproducts.com/LPpurge02.htm Not mentioned there but something I recall from the past was a recommendation to put a few ounces (in a 20# tank) of either methanol or isopropyl alcohol in the tank and slosh it around and pour it out prior to purging. That will dilute and absorb any moisture present and result in the bulk of the moisture being removed prior to and during the purging process. I think the bottom line on purging is to reduce the potential for explosions. I smell a rip off for some reason. I don't think it is a rip off, but maybe it is not done as often as it should be for the smaller bottles. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purgeneeded
I remember reading about "wet propane"which contains moisture acquired
during its travels to the end user.This was on a gas industry webpage.Keeping it dry poses a special handling procedure. |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
Well I can buy the reasoning behind it, but at 25 a whack is out of
line. I'll carry it to the dealer that I usually use to get my fills. These others were on my way home and I stopped by to see about getting it filled. The others I called on the phone, as my regular dealer is closed today after 12 noon. He has been in business for 49 years now, so he should know what the story is and how to handle it. I pay $7.35 for a 20# refill from this fellow. But if there is propane in the tank he will weigh it and only charge you for what he puts in it, unlike the others that you pay a flat fee regardless of how much may be left in it. Thats one reason I was going to get it filled at the other places as my dealer is further away and these were on my way and the tank was empty anyhow. I sure don;t know how folks pay those high prices at places like Lowes and wally world for 20# refills. Weight it? Flat fee? I've never had either of these done. Every place I've had propane tanks filled had a meter on the filling hose and measured what went in. Lane |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
Tanks are purged to prevent odorant fade. Hum, never heard of that reason, I always heard it was to get oxygen/air and moisture out. Lane |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
lane wrote: Weight it? Flat fee? I've never had either of these done. Every place I've had propane tanks filled had a meter on the filling hose and measured what went in. And that's the exact reason OPD valves were mandated. -- -- Mark N.E. Ohio Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A. Mark Twain) When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense. (Gaz, r.moto) |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
PhysicsGenius wrote: Jeff Wisnia wrote: Does it involve evacuating the cylinder to some negative pressure (without imploding it of course) Assuming the tank is built to take significantly more than 2 atm of positive pressure, could you possibly implode it even if it had a perfect vacuum inside? I dunno for sure, but probably not. Though if you think about it, a fire hose can hold a lot of positive pressure but will easily collapse under vacuum. It's probably a matter of the physical properties of the tank material, and it's shape, isn't it? I only mentioned it to show I'd thought of the possibility, so some smart ass who knew for sure thst it would collapse didn't seize the opportunity to jump all over me about it. (G) Jeff -- Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone to blame it on." |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
"David A. Webb" wrote: On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:56:48 -0500, Jeff Wisnia wrote: 4. Pressurize the container to approximately 15 PSIG with LP-gas vapor. Never purge with liquid LP-gas; to do so will cause the moisture vapor to chill and remain in the container. 5. Fully open the container service valve and vent safely to the atmosphere. 6. Repeat the fourth and fifth steps for a total of five purgings. And exactly how is doing this making the tank safer than if it were filled without purging? As soon as the tank goes from zero pressure to 15psi the first time, the contents are no longer an explosion hazard. So why pressurize and vent? Of course, the possibility of ending up with an air/propane mixture in the explosive range is infinitesimally small if you do put above some minimum amount of propane in. But it can't be guaranteed to be so for every idiotic thing some moron might decide to try, so the reg writers play it safe with that CYA procedure. I refuse to get sucked into this one again dammit! Is it simply to remove air because the air may contain moisture? Couldn't hurt. IIRC water can diminish or remove the odorant which is added to propane so people can smell leaking gas. Happy Holidays, Jeff -- Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone to blame it on." |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:40:24 -0800, "lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote: Well I can buy the reasoning behind it, but at 25 a whack is out of line. I'll carry it to the dealer that I usually use to get my fills. These others were on my way home and I stopped by to see about getting it filled. The others I called on the phone, as my regular dealer is closed today after 12 noon. He has been in business for 49 years now, so he should know what the story is and how to handle it. I pay $7.35 for a 20# refill from this fellow. But if there is propane in the tank he will weigh it and only charge you for what he puts in it, unlike the others that you pay a flat fee regardless of how much may be left in it. Thats one reason I was going to get it filled at the other places as my dealer is further away and these were on my way and the tank was empty anyhow. I sure don;t know how folks pay those high prices at places like Lowes and wally world for 20# refills. Weight it? Flat fee? I've never had either of these done. Every place I've had propane tanks filled had a meter on the filling hose and measured what went in. Lane By LAW a tank without an overfill protection device MUST be filled by weight. It may only be filled to 80% of it's capacity. Now the fuel may be metered, and charged by the standard litre - but MOST places filling BarBQ and recreational tanks charge a flat rate for refills - it's up to $11 Canadian most places here now, and a lot charge more than that. Minimum 3 times what you pay for motor fuel propane. Ripoff. And the purge on a new tank is MANDATORY. Not optional. |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
lane wrote: Tanks are purged to prevent odorant fade. Hum, never heard of that reason, I always heard it was to get oxygen/air and moisture out. After the last propane thread I'm not hot on jumping into this one. It takes very little ethyl mercaptan to make the stink. The ratio is roughly 1:40,000 (1 pound to 10,000 gallons). Ethyl oxidizes easily. When Ethyl oxidizes it looses her stink. Air and moisture both contain oxygen. You are correct, tanks are purged to remove air and moisture so Ethyl keeps her stink. Rust is also a known problem as it contains O2 and can't be removed by purging. Odorant fade can also be caused by absorption or adsorption. Not much can be done about absorption on the walls of a bare steel tank. Just use the tank often enough to have it refilled soon after it's initial filling. Eventually the tank will become seasoned and will have absorbed all of Ethyl it can. Adsorption is what produces Ethyl in the bottom of an older tank. Then there's fading of gas as it passes through the ground/ concrete. That's why it's important to do a leak down test. This article touches on these subjects: http://www.brucegoldfarb.com/propane.htm I don't recall hearing any concerns of explosion during purging in any safety meetings. Even if one stopped putting propane in a tank on it's first purge how the hell would you get a flame/ ignition source inside the tank to light it off? Even if the tank were filled without purging because, once again, how would you get a flame inside the tank? Plus it would be a little too rich of mix to light off. In both these instances you would have to work awful damned hard to hurt yourself. -- Mark N.E. Ohio Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A. Mark Twain) When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense. (Gaz, r.moto) |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
Jack Erbes writes:
I think the bottom line on purging is to reduce the potential for explosions. If that's the case, then why do we use gasoline tanks full of air? Shouldn't they be purged, too? |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
Jeff Wisnia wrote:
... I refuse to get sucked into this one again dammit! TOO LATE! (You just were sucked into it ;-) ) |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
Mark wrote:
... This article touches on these subjects: [odorant fade] http://www.brucegoldfarb.com/propane.htm ... Good article - I never knew that the odor could fade so easily. However, it certainly is in contradiction with my experience, which is that the ethyl mercaptan odor is damn difficult to get rid of. Although my experience is generally with older tanks that probably have had continuous use. Bob |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
Richard J Kinch wrote:
Jack Erbes writes: I think the bottom line on purging is to reduce the potential for explosions. If that's the case, then why do we use gasoline tanks full of air? Shouldn't they be purged, too? They are probably self purging, since the vapor from the tank goes into the evaporative emission control system. I presume that would push out the air too. |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:32:26 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote: Jack Erbes writes: I think the bottom line on purging is to reduce the potential for explosions. If that's the case, then why do we use gasoline tanks full of air? Shouldn't they be purged, too? I'm not an expert on any of this, just speculating. But gas tanks are vented and the gas fumes would probably displace most of the air in the gas tank, no? Also, there may be different magnitudes of potential explosive force between gasoline and propane. I know that if you shake up closed gas can, the pressure inside increases for a while at least. The military is using a newer type of bomb now that disperses a cloud of (I think) liquidized propane and then ignites the vapor. Has a stunning blast effect IIRC. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
Hey Lane,
And here, it's done with the tank sitting right on a special weigh scale. Take care. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:40:24 -0800, "lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote: Well I can buy the reasoning behind it, but at 25 a whack is out of line. I'll carry it to the dealer that I usually use to get my fills. These others were on my way home and I stopped by to see about getting it filled. The others I called on the phone, as my regular dealer is closed today after 12 noon. He has been in business for 49 years now, so he should know what the story is and how to handle it. I pay $7.35 for a 20# refill from this fellow. But if there is propane in the tank he will weigh it and only charge you for what he puts in it, unlike the others that you pay a flat fee regardless of how much may be left in it. Thats one reason I was going to get it filled at the other places as my dealer is further away and these were on my way and the tank was empty anyhow. I sure don;t know how folks pay those high prices at places like Lowes and wally world for 20# refills. Weight it? Flat fee? I've never had either of these done. Every place I've had propane tanks filled had a meter on the filling hose and measured what went in. Lane |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
Hey Clare,
That reminds me of something happened to me last year. I took a 20# in for a refill, and also one of those ones that is used in a horizontal position as fuel for a lift-truck. They are maybe two or three times the size of the 20 pounder, but are aluminum. The service depot charged me less to fill it than the 20 pounder flat fee of $ 12 Cdn, but I just assumed that maybe it wasn't empty. Take care. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ..On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:39:15 GMT, clare @ snyder.on .ca wrote: On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:40:24 -0800, "lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote: Well I can buy the reasoning behind it, but at 25 a whack is out of line. I'll carry it to the dealer that I usually use to get my fills. These others were on my way home and I stopped by to see about getting it filled. The others I called on the phone, as my regular dealer is closed today after 12 noon. He has been in business for 49 years now, so he should know what the story is and how to handle it. I pay $7.35 for a 20# refill from this fellow. But if there is propane in the tank he will weigh it and only charge you for what he puts in it, unlike the others that you pay a flat fee regardless of how much may be left in it. Thats one reason I was going to get it filled at the other places as my dealer is further away and these were on my way and the tank was empty anyhow. I sure don;t know how folks pay those high prices at places like Lowes and wally world for 20# refills. Weight it? Flat fee? I've never had either of these done. Every place I've had propane tanks filled had a meter on the filling hose and measured what went in. Lane By LAW a tank without an overfill protection device MUST be filled by weight. It may only be filled to 80% of it's capacity. Now the fuel may be metered, and charged by the standard litre - but MOST places filling BarBQ and recreational tanks charge a flat rate for refills - it's up to $11 Canadian most places here now, and a lot charge more than that. Minimum 3 times what you pay for motor fuel propane. Ripoff. And the purge on a new tank is MANDATORY. Not optional. |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
Hey Richard,
If by "gas tanks", you mean automobiles, they are. Right on the vehicle assembly line, with special "nozzles" on the filler. Take care. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:32:26 -0600, Richard J Kinch wrote: Jack Erbes writes: I think the bottom line on purging is to reduce the potential for explosions. If that's the case, then why do we use gasoline tanks full of air? Shouldn't they be purged, too? |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
ff writes:
They are probably self purging, since the vapor from the tank goes into the evaporative emission control system. I presume that would push out the air too. No, the canisters just absorb fumes coming out of the tank. Doesn't affect what goes into the headspace. Air is definitely going in. There is even a changeover of the headspace as the ambient temperature causes the gasoline vapor pressure to go up and down and "breathe"; this is why ambient humidity can enter the tank as water vapor and condense when the temperature falls, repeating enough to cause liquid build-up, and the attendant problems in freezing weather, and the need for fuel tank dehydration with the little bottles of ethanol. Besides, cars never had anything but simple fuel caps for many decades in the past, and there are plenty of machines (like lawn mowers, etc.) that have only that now. Fact is, the headspace in a gasoline fuel tank is mostly air. Gasoline vapor has more explosive energy than propane (much heavier molecules), so if anything the explosive risk is higher than propane. All of which leads me to conclude that explosion hazard is not the primary, if any, risk mandating the purging of propane tanks. |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
All of which leads me to conclude that explosion hazard is not the
primary, if any, risk mandating the purging of propane tanks. Moisture plays a big reason for purging. As the propane evaporates into gas it gets colder. Ever see frost on the outside of a tank? Moisture inside causes ice crystals that can plug up regulators, and flame orifices etc. Can cause a big head ache. |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
"David A. Webb" wrote in message ... Is it simply to remove air because the air may contain moisture? I had this done (for free) with two new tanks (20lb) that I purchased. The guy doing stated that if the moisture is not purged from the tank, then the valve may freeze up when in use. This would kill any output from the tank. I filled mine at a Flying J gas plaza. I have also had good luck using smaller mom/pop places like the local feed mill and a small one man used trailer business. I realize that the 100lb probably needs to be filled by a truck coming to you, but what the hey ... |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
(Roy) wrote in message ...
Just what is involved with filling a new propane tank. I just bought a brand new 100# tank. Took it to a gas supplier to get filled, and they want a $25.00 initial fee supposedly to purge it..........what gives. If its empty its empty. Its got the standard type of valve (OPD not required on a 100# cylinder) so it can be opened and any air inside can be vented to the atmosphere. Am I missing something here? Called two others and they also said the tank needs to be purged since its new.........I have bought new 20# and never had to have them purged . I smell a rip off for some reason. Maybe I just need to transfer some gas to give it a used smell into this new cylinder and then act like its been filled before. Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com Opinions expressed are those of my wifes, I had no input whatsoever. Remove "nospam" from email addy. I've bought several new propane tanks, they've all had to be purged. You DO NOT want air mixed with your propane in there. Purging amounted to opening up the bleed screw while propane pumping was going on, screw remained open until propane fogged out of the opening. The tanks were then filled to proper weight. I got to pay for the propane that escaped, there was no extra charge for the filling station guy having to use his screwdriver. You got ripped off. On two of the new tanks there was considerable air pressure in the tank before they were even hooked up. The last one I bled down before hauling it over to the rental place where I get tanks filled, took less time that way. It took about 15 minutes for the 60 lb tank to quit passing air after I opened up the screw, there must have been a lot of pressure in there. I suppose they use it for checking for leaks after assembly, probably roll them through a water tank after pressurizing and look for bubbles at the joints. At least being pressurized that way assured me that it wouldn't leak when filled. You need to find another, more honest, supplier. Stan |
Reason behind a purge was Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
Well my dealer did not charge for a purge. He stated the main reason
they are purged, is, even though the factory makes and pressurizes these tanks before shipping, when they are setting in storage it very common for folks to open valves etc. This allows atmospheric pressure containing moisture to get in the tank. This moisture can freeze and create a stoppage of gas flow during use. Its not to prevent an expolsion etc,. merely to keep the valve and its orifice from freezing up. He stated that other than freeze up potential its relativerly harmless, and its not going to cause any dodgeing of bullets. He also stated they use alcohol that they pour into a tank to help remove any accumulated moisture if need be. He did not charge me to purge the tank. Pretty nice old fellow. He must know what he is talking about as he has been doing it 49 years now. He showed me a tank that had moisture accumulated inside of it, and was allowed to set with the valve open after it was empty, and from what they figure it sat this way in a shed on its side, for many many years. On filling the tank (prior to the OPD valves and enforcement of 12 year certiify check) the tank spit down the side for about 10 inches long, looked just like a sawzall made the cut..... At 100 deg there is approximately 200# psi and at - 44 deg there is 0 pressure. Anyway now I am topped off on all my tanks and ready to make some serious moten metal starting tomorrow. I got an order for a batch of aluminum and bronze sundials and some other decorative cast items from a concrete garden statue manufacturer, have 3 wheels to cast for my bandsaw, as well as a blade guide bracket, and table pivots. Spent most of the afternoon making a few more flasks and raming up molds for tomorrow. Thanks for all the input on my initial question on purging. Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com Opinions expressed are those of my wifes, I had no input whatsoever. Remove "nospam" from email addy. |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
"lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message ...
Well I can buy the reasoning behind it, but at 25 a whack is out of line. I'll carry it to the dealer that I usually use to get my fills. These others were on my way home and I stopped by to see about getting it filled. The others I called on the phone, as my regular dealer is closed today after 12 noon. He has been in business for 49 years now, so he should know what the story is and how to handle it. I pay $7.35 for a 20# refill from this fellow. But if there is propane in the tank he will weigh it and only charge you for what he puts in it, unlike the others that you pay a flat fee regardless of how much may be left in it. Thats one reason I was going to get it filled at the other places as my dealer is further away and these were on my way and the tank was empty anyhow. I sure don;t know how folks pay those high prices at places like Lowes and wally world for 20# refills. Weight it? Flat fee? I've never had either of these done. Every place I've had propane tanks filled had a meter on the filling hose and measured what went in. Lane Where I have filling done, they do both, the tank goes on a scale, the tare weight gets set, the fill weight gets set and pumping commences. When the scale comes up to balance point, the guy quits and I pay for the amount on the pump meter. I won't do business with a guy that doesn't have a scale for propane tanks and I don't do the flat fee bit, not many in this area do except for the tank exchangers like the supermarkets and home improvement joints. Aside from safety considerations(and they're considerable), air won't liquify at propane pressures, so if there's a lot of air in there, you may not get a full bottle, or if you do, it'll be under a lot more pressure than just propane would generate. It will eventually purge out if you just draw vapor, but it is a hazard having mixed air and propane vapor being drawn out. Purging of a new bottle is just so easy to do there's no reason not to and charging for it is just about theft. If somebody tried that on me, I'd head on down the road to a different supplier. Stan |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
In article , Jeff Wisnia wrote:
PhysicsGenius wrote: Jeff Wisnia wrote: Does it involve evacuating the cylinder to some negative pressure (without imploding it of course) Assuming the tank is built to take significantly more than 2 atm of positive pressure, could you possibly implode it even if it had a perfect vacuum inside? I dunno for sure, but probably not. there was a thread in rcm a couple of years back about rail and truck gas transport tanks collapsing, after being serviced or repaired. the tanks were at closed up at 1 atm, (IIRC). --Loren |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
I won't do business with a guy that doesn't have a scale for propane tanks Interesting, the business I go to that uses the meter only is a huge commercial outfit that fills many of the tanks you see at gas stations, rental yards, home heating tanks etc, etc. I'd sure think that they would know what they are doing. And even at the "smaller" places like rental yards that I've gone to in the past uses the hose meter system. I've never had a tank weighed. Any chance there is a state law where you are at requiring weighing. Lane |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
Purging
amounted to opening up the bleed screw while propane pumping was going on, screw remained open until propane fogged out of the opening. The tanks were then filled to proper weight. My understanding is that that is not a proper purging. Per NPGA bulletin 133-a To purge a container, the following steps should be taken: 1. Purging of containers should be performed in an approved area (see NFPA #58) 2. Determine if the container pressure is zero. Should the container contain only air pressure, the air may be vented directly to the atmosphere through the service valve. 3. If free water is present in the container, it should be drained. 4. Pressurize the container to approximately 15 PSIG with LP-gas vapor. Never purge with liquid LP-gas; to do so will cause the moisture vapor to chill and remain in the container. 5. Fully open the container service valve and vent safely to the atmosphere. 6. Repeat the fourth and fifth steps for a total of five purgings. ----------- Lane |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:32:26 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote: Jack Erbes writes: I think the bottom line on purging is to reduce the potential for explosions. If that's the case, then why do we use gasoline tanks full of air? Shouldn't they be purged, too? Gasoline tanks are vented to atmosphere when they are filled - so they purge themselves. |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:50:01 -0800, "lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote: I won't do business with a guy that doesn't have a scale for propane tanks Interesting, the business I go to that uses the meter only is a huge commercial outfit that fills many of the tanks you see at gas stations, rental yards, home heating tanks etc, etc. I'd sure think that they would know what they are doing. And even at the "smaller" places like rental yards that I've gone to in the past uses the hose meter system. I've never had a tank weighed. Any chance there is a state law where you are at requiring weighing. Lane As I stated it is LAW in Canada. We tend to have significantly higher safety standards here in Canada than you have in the states. Americans tend to get their hackles up when laws are passed forcing them to do anything that is "good for them". |
Initial fill of new Propane tank fact or fiction on purge needed
writes:
Gasoline tanks are vented to atmosphere when they are filled - so they purge themselves. Obviously not, if they are open to the atmosphere. |
Initial fill (should have looked before I asked)
In article , Stan Schaefer wrote:
"lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message ... Well I can buy the reasoning behind it, but at 25 a whack is out of line. I'll carry it to the dealer that I usually use to get my fills. .... Weight it? Flat fee? I've never had either of these done. Every place I've had propane tanks filled had a meter on the filling hose and measured what went in. Lane Where I have filling done, they do both, the tank goes on a scale, the tare weight gets set, the fill weight gets set and pumping commences. When the scale comes up to balance point, the guy quits and I pay for the amount on the pump meter. I won't do business with a guy that the one metro propane distributor in N.Dallas used both scale and meter to fill bbq tanks. he never looked at the meter, just took the printout and handed to the customer. although a flat rate, the office wanted that ticket. wrt purging, only in Tejas have i been asked for payment to purge. most dealers automatically purge everytime they fill. as to repeating 5x, well i have never seen it done. maybe you guys that do pay could comment on that? .... pressure than just propane would generate. It will eventually purge out if you just draw vapor, but it is a hazard having mixed air and propane vapor being drawn out. Purging of a new bottle is just so easy to do there's no reason not to and charging for it is just about theft. If somebody tried that on me, I'd head on down the road to a different supplier. agreed, the dealer i asked said that the unpurged tank would have intermittant gas flow for a time, but eventually would function normally. if your bbq or pilot keeps dying on a new tank, that could be the problem. --Loren |
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