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knuckle dragging imbecile
 
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When Does Free Speech Become Treason?
The Fifth Column/Barbara Stock

December 14, 2005 - At almost the precise moment that some leftists
were proclaiming Iraq a total loss, a plane carrying the newly printed
ballots and ballot boxes for Iraq's first true, democratic, and free
election were being unloaded in Baghdad.

As the Iraqi Stock Exchange opened with all the chaos and excitement of
the New York Stock Exchange, Rep. Nancy Pelosi was making the statement
that our military had made no gains at all in Iraq and that the troops
should be pulled out immediately.

When Senator John Kerry sought out a microphone to babble nearly
incoherently about benchmarks versus timetables, it was noted that
weddings in war-torn Baghdad are on the rise as young couples find they
now have the hope of a future in a free Iraq.

Congressman Harry Reid claims the fledgling Iraqi military and police
are just using our troops and we should "remove their
training-wheels." Reid believes that if left to the Iraqis, American
troops would be in Iraq forever protecting them because the Iraqi
people are apparently too lazy too protect themselves. Reid simply
ignores the thousands of Iraqis that have died trying to do that very
thing.

Other leftists claim our troops are seen and hated as an "occupying
force" and want us to leave now and never return.

Just a few months ago, the mantra of the leftists was that there were
not enough troops in Iraq to do the job, now they say there are too
many.

The Iraqi people are used to chaos. For them, life goes on. Yes, there
are bombings and kidnappings, murder, mayhem, and death in some areas,
but according to Senator Lieberman most Iraqis seem to believe Iraq is
better now and will be even better next year. One would never know this
by listening to Nancy Pelosi or Congressman John Murtha. For people who
think as these two leftists, winning is not an option. In fact, winning
is impossible.

Congressman Murtha has declared our military broken and living "hand
to mouth." This was news to the US Marine who did a radio interview
after returning from his usual Friday night supper of steak and lobster
at the Halliburton-run mess hall.

The father of a Marine serving in Iraq stated in an e-mail message that
the only piece of equipment his son purchased for himself were his
sunglasses because the ones issued just weren't cool enough for
Marines. Other than that, he apparently had everything he needed.

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean made the statement,
"The idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is
just plain wrong." This statement was made on the very day that Saddam
Hussein's trial began in earnest in Baghdad, presided over by men
possessing unbelievable courage that the pampered Howard Dean could
never understand.

At Saddam's trial, a distraught and crying witness related seeing
babies born in prison only to die and be thrown away like garbage. He
states that he saw the remains of some poor souls who had been put
through a meat grinder and all the while, an American, former Attorney
General Ramsey Clark took over Saddam's legal defense urging
disruption and chaos in the courtroom.

Ramsey Clark is on record from the 1990's as believing that Saddam
was innocent of any the crimes for which he now stands accused. Clark
claimed the charges were "garbage and propaganda." Even now, he claims
that since an attempt was made on Saddam's life, Saddam had every
right seek out the guilty parties. Clark had no comments on the torture
and rapes. Perhaps he feels that was Saddam's right as well.

Senator Kerry accused our soldiers and Marines of carrying out terror
attacks on innocent Iraqi women and children. Old habits die hard.

Another leftist, Senator Charles Schumer of New York, spoke on
television about how the elections in Iraq are "sort of being
imposed" on the Iraqi people. Schumer predicts failure in Iraq.
Forgotten, or ignored, are the pictures of the Iraqi people, one woman
arriving to vote for the first time at the age of 90 in a wheelbarrow.
Gone is the memory of the Iraqi people proudly holding up their purple
fingers in defiance of the Islamic terrorists who threatened to kill
them for voting.

Article III of the United States Constitution declares that treason
against the United States consists of: levying war against them; or in
adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort.

SNIP


If one did not know these statements had come from American men and
women in political office and high visibility, it would seem the
remarks were lifted off the pages of Al Jazeera or an Al Qaeda website.
Of course, each statement has been broadcast by Al Jazeera and repeated
throughout the Arab/Muslim world many times. These leftist politicians
are probably held in high esteem...by the enemy. Democrats have
compared our soldiers and their "tactics" to Nazis and Pol Pot.
Democrats have called our soldiers everything from losers, too weak and
incompetent to win the war in Iraq to being terrorists who use
Nazi-like tactics.

When is the line between legal objections to the war and treasonous
statements crossed? When does "free speech" begin to give aid and
comfort to the enemy? When American troops are on the battlefield, is
it treason to refer to their actions as terrorist acts? Does it give
the enemy hope when powerful people declare that the war is all but
lost and that our troops are criminals? Of course it does!

Many leftists are either oblivious to the aid and comfort they give to
the enemy or they no longer care. Sadly, it seems to be the latter.
Their hatred of Bush overrides all else. No rational mind could believe
leftists any longer when they claim to love their country or support
the troops. How can leftists support troops that they claim torture and
terrorize innocent people? How can leftists support troops that they
claim are losers? How can anyone believe a man who claims that the Iraq
war is as bad as the Holocaust? Is he insinuating that Americans have
murdered 6 million Iraqis? What are the leftists trying to say?

What the leftists are saying to our enemy is this: Islamic
terrorists--here we are. America is weak and broken. You have won the
war. Contact the leaders of the Democratic Party and let us know to
whom we should submit our total surrender. Our only request is that you
allow us to blame our shameful and total defeat on President Bush. If
you allow us that one victory, the country is yours.


================================================== =========================

Anyone has the right to disagree with government policy. The First
Amendment guarantees us that right. One could even plausibly argue that
it is our patriotic duty to display our dissent.

However, one can go to far, and slide from patriotic dissent right into
out and out treason.

People like Kerry, Kennedy, Dean, Pelosi, Schumer, Rangel, et al,
however did not slide from dissent into treason, they actively took it
up, and embraced their treason. Nor have they hidden their treason, but
they claim it's just a disagreement with the president.

John Kerry has practiced his treason since his college days, in a
variety of ways.
Howard Dean is so far out of touch with reality that a great many
people doubt his sanity. Nevertheless, sane or insane, he continues to
practice his treason.
As do the others.

Dissent is often a good thing.
It's when it starts giving aid and comfort to those that want to
destroy us, that treason rears it's evil head.

Kerry, Kennedy, Dean, Pelosi et al, have embraced treason as a
political statement, and stance.
They belong in prison, not the halls of the Capitol.

  #2   Report Post  
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Tom Wait
 
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"knuckle dragging imbecile" wrote in message
oups.com...
When Does Free Speech Become Treason?
The Fifth Column/Barbara Stock

BIIIGG snip.

Amen


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Hawke
 
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"Ignoramus19198" wrote in message
.. .
What you posted does not qualify as meaningful information.

i


True, but it does qualify as decent propaganda. The only thing wrong with it
though is that it failed to use the word "victory" enough. According to the
research Bush is getting from a Midwestern university the word victory has
been shown to be highly impressive to the American public. Keep that in mind
next time you hear from the Bush surrogates. Pay particular attention to how
many times they use the word victory in their statements. It'll be a lot.

Hawke


  #4   Report Post  
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jim rozen
 
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In article , Hawke says...

Pay particular attention to how
many times they use the word victory in their statements.


Ah, so I was correct. The spinmeisters realized that the
US public wants pretty girls being kissed by servicemen in
times square.

VJ day.

VE day.

Now it's gonna be VI day.

Any day now.

Jim


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Too_Many_Tools
 
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We have the right to free speech as we have the right to bear arms.

If you wish to take away one of those rights, then you allow the
government to take away the other.

"Dissent is often a good thing. "

Dissent is ALWAYS a good thing.

"It's when it starts giving aid and comfort to those that want to
destroy us, that treason rears it's evil head. "

This Administration has aided and comforted those who want to destroy
us more than any Administration in the memory of this generation.

Tell me, why does Karl Rove still have his security clearance?

TMT



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Gunner Asch
 
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On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:29:46 GMT, Ignoramus19198
wrote:

What you posted does not qualify as meaningful information.

i


Actually..it does. However..Leftists will go into the full fetal
position, and start sucking their thumbs when they realize that all
the spew they have been emitting, has been Leftists lies from an
organization that cares NOTHING about America, but only its return to
a position of power.

That is..the honest leftists..which is pretty much an oxymoron. If
they were honest..they wouldnt be Leftists.

Shrug


Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
  #7   Report Post  
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Abrasha
 
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knuckle dragging imbecile wrote:
When Does Free Speech Become Treason?
The Fifth Column/Barbara Stock


SNIP

Your chosen handle "knuckle dragging imbecile" is very appropriate.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #8   Report Post  
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jim rozen
 
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In article , Gunner Asch says...

However..Leftists will go into the full fetal
position, and start sucking their thumbs when they realize that all
the spew they have been emitting, has been Leftists lies from an
organization that cares NOTHING about America, but only its return to
a position of power.


Hmm, 'cares nothing about america.'

That maybe sounds like that guy from the Cato Institute, who
was taking money from that guy Abromoff to write spin and call
it research.

They only care about the dollar it seems.

Now what really drives me into the fetal position is knowing
that our president told the NSA that it's just fine and dandy
to wiretap US citizens without getting a warrant before doing
so.

Unfortunatly for him it seems like the powers that be in the
senate aren't too happy about those shenanigans. Some of the
republicans too, oddly enough. So unhappy in fact that they
put the kibosh on that USAPATRIOT act to spank him a bit.

Should we really be securing democtratic freedoms for the
citizens of Iraq at the exact same time we're stripping them
from US citizens?

Jim


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Gunner Asch
 
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On 17 Dec 2005 19:28:40 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner Asch says...

However..Leftists will go into the full fetal
position, and start sucking their thumbs when they realize that all
the spew they have been emitting, has been Leftists lies from an
organization that cares NOTHING about America, but only its return to
a position of power.


Hmm, 'cares nothing about america.'

That maybe sounds like that guy from the Cato Institute, who
was taking money from that guy Abromoff to write spin and call
it research.

They only care about the dollar it seems.

Now what really drives me into the fetal position is knowing
that our president told the NSA that it's just fine and dandy
to wiretap US citizens without getting a warrant before doing
so.


See FISA court. And 72 hours. Then get back to me, ok?


Unfortunatly for him it seems like the powers that be in the
senate aren't too happy about those shenanigans. Some of the
republicans too, oddly enough. So unhappy in fact that they
put the kibosh on that USAPATRIOT act to spank him a bit.

Should we really be securing democtratic freedoms for the
citizens of Iraq at the exact same time we're stripping them
from US citizens?

Jim


They put the kibosh on him, based on fatally flawed (and intentionally
spun) statements by the Anti-Bush bunch.

Please read the PA in its entirety. Also note who signed and voted for
it.

Google FISA, Gorlick Wall, and Carnivore and Echelon.

also "able danger"

Then get back to me.

A helping hint....
http://www.gulfcoastnews.com/GCNgues...competence.htm


Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
  #10   Report Post  
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pyotr filipivich
 
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You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
is what happens: Gunner Asch writes on Sun, 18 Dec
2005 09:56:55 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On 17 Dec 2005 19:28:40 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner Asch says...

However..Leftists will go into the full fetal
position, and start sucking their thumbs when they realize that all
the spew they have been emitting, has been Leftists lies from an
organization that cares NOTHING about America, but only its return to
a position of power.


Hmm, 'cares nothing about america.'

That maybe sounds like that guy from the Cato Institute, who
was taking money from that guy Abromoff to write spin and call
it research.

They only care about the dollar it seems.

Now what really drives me into the fetal position is knowing
that our president told the NSA that it's just fine and dandy
to wiretap US citizens without getting a warrant before doing
so.


See FISA court. And 72 hours. Then get back to me, ok?


What drives me nuts is the arrogance of the Time editorial board to
reveal Government secrets, the revelation of which help no Americans, and
warn America's enemies.

Yet the Press continues to wonder why people don't buy their papers
anymore, or why they can't get any respect from the rubes.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
Most journalists these days couldn't investigate a missing chocolate cake
at a pre-school without a Democrat office holder telling them what to look for,
where, and what significance it all has.


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jim rozen
 
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In article , pyotr filipivich
says...

What drives me nuts is the arrogance of the Time[s] editorial board to
reveal Government secrets,


What, like the fact that the NSA is wiretapping american citizens
without a court order?

Jim


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Too_Many_Tools
 
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" What drives me nuts is the arrogance of the Time editorial board
to
reveal Government secrets, the revelation of which help no Americans,
and
warn America's enemies"

You have to be kidding....the fact that Dear Old George demanded
wiretaps without having bothered to go through the courts for
permission means he broke the law.

This may very well be the beginning of the end for George....remember
how Watergate got started?

The fact that the renewal of the Patriot Act failed tells you that this
is a very serious situation for the Administration.

Meanwhile no one can tell me why Karl Rove who is still under
investigation for turning over a CIA agent still has his security
clearance during wartime....it must be nice to have low friends in high
places.

Damn hypocrites.

Maybe George and Karl will be cellmates....

TMT

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Mike Henry
 
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"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...

The fact that the renewal of the Patriot Act failed tells you that this
is a very serious situation for the Administration.


I think that may have more to do with a election coming up than with any
trouble that GW may be in.


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Ed Huntress
 
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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...

What drives me nuts is the arrogance of the Time editorial board to
reveal Government secrets, the revelation of which help no Americans, and
warn America's enemies.


I'm going to be sorry I said this, but...

1) It was the New York Times editorial board, not Time. 2) It wasn't
government secrets. It was information illegally being kept secret by the
Executive branch. The legislative branch is up in arms about it, and the
courts may yet be hearing criminal charges over it. 3) If you don't
appreciate why violation of your Constitutional rights is a harm to you,
you're living in the wrong country. 4) As for warning America's enemies,
there is nothing the administration has been doing that it didn't have the
legal means to do already -- if they had bothered to follow the law and the
Constitution.


Yet the Press continues to wonder why people don't buy their papers
anymore, or why they can't get any respect from the rubes.


The Times is doing OK for a newspaper in the Internet age. As for the rubes,
they weren't buying it or reading it, anyway.

--
Ed Huntress


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Too_Many_Tools
 
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" The fact that the renewal of the Patriot Act failed tells you that
this
is a very serious situation for the Administration.


I think that may have more to do with a election coming up than with
any trouble that GW may be in."

You are correct in that the GOP is in trouble...of their own making.

And they just keep digging their hole deeper....

They are in damage control mode now. All tax cut legistration has been
shelved, privatizing Social Security is dead, Alaska drilling is likely
dead....as the money issues that would benefit the GOP contributors
die, the chance of the GOP doing well in the 2006 elections die with
them.

Of course we have until 2008 to work on the national debt, national
trade deficit, unemployment, Katrina, probable recession, Delay, the
CIA leak and of course Iraq...never a dull moment when you have George
leading the Sheeple over the cliff.....

TMT



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John R. Carroll
 
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Too_Many_Tools wrote:
" The fact that the renewal of the Patriot Act failed tells you that
this
is a very serious situation for the Administration.


I think that may have more to do with a election coming up than with
any trouble that GW may be in."

You are correct in that the GOP is in trouble...of their own making.

And they just keep digging their hole deeper....

They are in damage control mode now. All tax cut legistration has been
shelved, privatizing Social Security is dead, Alaska drilling is
likely dead....as the money issues that would benefit the GOP
contributors die, the chance of the GOP doing well in the 2006
elections die with them.

Of course we have until 2008 to work on the national debt, national
trade deficit, unemployment, Katrina, probable recession, Delay, the
CIA leak and of course Iraq...never a dull moment when you have George
leading the Sheeple over the cliff.....


The President of the United States has committed , and now admitted, the
commission of multiple felonies.
He has also publicly stated his intention to commit additional illegal acts.
You or I would be in jail had we done the same. He should be as well.....

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com


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jim rozen
 
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In article , Ed Huntress says...

... 3) If you don't
appreciate why violation of your Constitutional rights is a harm to you,
you're living in the wrong country. ...


"America, Love it or Leave It." That's functionaly the same as: "The
American Constitution, Obey it or Go To Jail."

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of lawbreakers.

Jim


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jim rozen
 
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In article .com,
Too_Many_Tools says...


They are in damage control mode now. All tax cut legistration has been
shelved, privatizing Social Security is dead, Alaska drilling is likely
dead....as the money issues that would benefit the GOP contributors
die, the chance of the GOP doing well in the 2006 elections die with
them.

Of course we have until 2008 to work on the national debt, national
trade deficit, unemployment, Katrina, probable recession, Delay, the
CIA leak and of course Iraq...never a dull moment when you have George
leading the Sheeple over the cliff.....


You forgot the candy man, Mr. Abromoff.

He's gonna rat them all out.

Jim


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knuckle dragging imbecile
 
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Abrasha wrote:

Your chosen handle "knuckle dragging imbecile" is very appropriate.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com


Well you know where that handle came from, don't you? One of your
fellow name-callers in this liberal love fest.

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Hawke
 
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"knuckle dragging imbecile" wrote in message
oups.com...

Abrasha wrote:

Your chosen handle "knuckle dragging imbecile" is very appropriate.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com


Well you know where that handle came from, don't you? One of your
fellow name-callers in this liberal love fest.


Everyone knows that you can't beat a right winger when it comes to name
calling. The best you can hope for it to hold your own.

Hawke




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G.W.
 
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Hawke wrote:
"knuckle dragging imbecile" wrote in message
oups.com...

Abrasha wrote:

Your chosen handle "knuckle dragging imbecile" is very appropriate.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com


Well you know where that handle came from, don't you? One of your
fellow name-callers in this liberal love fest.


Everyone knows that you can't beat a right winger when it comes to name
calling. The best you can hope for it to hold your own.

Hawke


In the words of a great American philosopher, "can't we all just get
along?"

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pyotr filipivich
 
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You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
is what happens: jim rozen writes on 18 Dec 2005
14:46:46 -0800 in rec.crafts.metalworking :
In article , pyotr filipivich
says...

What drives me nuts is the arrogance of the Time[s] editorial board to
reveal Government secrets,


What, like the fact that the NSA is wiretapping american citizens
without a court order?


Once again, the Times editorial board (et alia) are wanting to make
sure that Dots are not collected, so that there will be no problem blaming
the Government for not Connecting said uncollected Dots.

I wonder if the editors have groked the difference between wire taps
for collecting evidence, and wire taps for collecting intelligence. Maybe
they can show what sort of crimes the September 11th hijackers had
committed prior to their boarding their flights. While we are at it, what
legalistic reason would there have been to take note of the Oklahoma City
bomber - who managed to only blow himself up.
--
pyotr filipivich
TV NEWS: Yesterday's newspaper read to the illiterate.
  #23   Report Post  
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jim rozen
 
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In article , pyotr filipivich
says...

I wonder if the editors have groked the difference between wire taps
for collecting evidence, and wire taps for collecting intelligence.


Odd, I checked the fourth amendment. Those idiots who wrote the
damn thing didn't understand that difference either.

Jim


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  #24   Report Post  
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G.W.
 
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4th Amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Yep, I see it. It says right there that international phone calls to
Al Qaida-connected people shall not be monitored in time of war (unless
a court has taken the time to approve it, of course).

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Clif Holland
 
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Show me where it says anything about being secure in your speech???

--

Clif

"G.W." wrote in message
oups.com...
4th Amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Yep, I see it. It says right there that international phone calls to
Al Qaida-connected people shall not be monitored in time of war (unless
a court has taken the time to approve it, of course).





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G.W.
 
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Ok, so maybe the 4th Amendment didn't really say that international
phone calls to Al Qaida-connected people shall not be monitored but
I'll bet some judge somewhere will say it did.

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Ed Huntress
 
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"G.W." wrote in message
oups.com...
4th Amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Yep, I see it. It says right there that international phone calls to
Al Qaida-connected people shall not be monitored in time of war (unless
a court has taken the time to approve it, of course).


Sorry, G.W., but "to be secure in your person" means the government can't
invade your privacy without cause -- including your phone calls.

It's a little bit like the way we apply the 2nd Amendment today. The FF's
were talking about muzzle-loading, flintlock muskets only. But most people
here would expand the defininition of "arms," much like we have expanded the
defininition of "secure in your person." New technology requires us to
consider how the *principle* applies to the new conditions.

As for "Al Qaeda-connected people," as a former administration lawyer
explained yesterday, all they know in most cases is that somebody accused of
being Al Qaeda had their phone number on a computer database -- or that
somebody on the database had called them. There can be several degrees of
separation. It could have been their manicurist when they visited the US,
and the person whose phone is being tapped could turn out to be the
manicurist's bookie. g

--
Ed Huntress


  #28   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
G.W.
 
Posts: n/a
Default For Gunner


Ed Huntress wrote:
Sorry, G.W., but "to be secure in your person" means the government can't
invade your privacy without cause -- including your phone calls.

It's a little bit like the way we apply the 2nd Amendment today. The FF's
were talking about muzzle-loading, flintlock muskets only. But most people
here would expand the defininition of "arms," much like we have expanded the
defininition of "secure in your person." New technology requires us to
consider how the *principle* applies to the new conditions.

As for "Al Qaeda-connected people," as a former administration lawyer
explained yesterday, all they know in most cases is that somebody accused of
being Al Qaeda had their phone number on a computer database -- or that
somebody on the database had called them. There can be several degrees of
separation. It could have been their manicurist when they visited the US,
and the person whose phone is being tapped could turn out to be the
manicurist's bookie. g

--
Ed Huntress


I agree, for the most part, but I just hope that when we are "expanding
the definition" of the Constitution that we don't take it too far. For
example, the idea that "free speech" equals pornography. Maybe that
idea was expanded a tiny bit too far.

  #29   Report Post  
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John R. Carroll
 
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G.W. wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
Sorry, G.W., but "to be secure in your person" means the government
can't invade your privacy without cause -- including your phone
calls.

It's a little bit like the way we apply the 2nd Amendment today. The
FF's were talking about muzzle-loading, flintlock muskets only. But
most people here would expand the defininition of "arms," much like
we have expanded the defininition of "secure in your person." New
technology requires us to consider how the *principle* applies to
the new conditions.

As for "Al Qaeda-connected people," as a former administration lawyer
explained yesterday, all they know in most cases is that somebody
accused of being Al Qaeda had their phone number on a computer
database -- or that somebody on the database had called them. There
can be several degrees of separation. It could have been their
manicurist when they visited the US, and the person whose phone is
being tapped could turn out to be the manicurist's bookie. g

--
Ed Huntress


I agree, for the most part, but I just hope that when we are
"expanding the definition" of the Constitution that we don't take it
too far. For example, the idea that "free speech" equals pornography.
Maybe that idea was expanded a tiny bit too far.



G.W.,
You can't legistlate morality.
Be a better parent. What better opportunity is there to teach proper moral
behavior is there?
I do realize that many parents are simply to lazy or irresponsible to be of
much use as parents but that's the only real answer and it's also the whole
problem.
The same is true for abortion and other like issues. Making this illegal
won't appreciably reduce demand. If you want to reduce demand bring kids up
not to "demand" the things in the first place. As long as that demand exists
a supply will be at hand. That may outrage some but the facts remain outrage
or no...

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com


  #30   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default For Gunner

In article .com, G.W. says...

4th Amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Yep, I see it. It says right there that international phone calls to
Al Qaida-connected people shall not be monitored in time of war (unless
a court has taken the time to approve it, of course).


The current adminstration *tried* to ask congress for the ability
to do warrentless wiretapping on citizens in the US. They were
not allowed to this. The answer was "NO."

It also doesn't say "GW's house cannot be searched without a warrant."

So your house can now be entered and searched by the police, at any
time, without them having to obtain a warrant from a judge. Right?

You've just given up your rights under the fourth amendment, and you
didn't even know it.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================


  #31   Report Post  
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G.W.
 
Posts: n/a
Default For Gunner

John R. Carroll wrote:

G.W.,
You can't legistlate morality.
Be a better parent. What better opportunity is there to teach proper moral
behavior is there?
I do realize that many parents are simply to lazy or irresponsible to be of
much use as parents but that's the only real answer and it's also the whole
problem.
The same is true for abortion and other like issues. Making this illegal
won't appreciably reduce demand. If you want to reduce demand bring kids up
not to "demand" the things in the first place. As long as that demand exists
a supply will be at hand. That may outrage some but the facts remain outrage
or no...


Ok, I can go along with that up to a point. Raising moral children is a
good solution. On the other hand, you still don't want to live in a
society that has absolutely no limits. I don't think we need a whore
house on every corner under some bogus idea of "free speech". Sensible
limits should be set by our elected representatives not by some judge
who misinterprets the Constitution.
That's only my opinion.

  #32   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
John R. Carroll
 
Posts: n/a
Default For Gunner

jim rozen wrote:
In article .com,
G.W. says...

The current adminstration *tried* to ask congress for the ability
to do warrentless wiretapping on citizens in the US. They were
not allowed to this. The answer was "NO."



Our entire society ( American ) is based on the premise that we would rather
let the guilty go free in a pinch rather than sacrifice the governments
burden to prove guilt. That is where "beyond a reasonable doubt" comes in.
THIS is what's wrong with things like the Patriot Act and warrantless
searches. The presumption of innocence goes out the window in advance of any
process. The Constitution either means something or it doesn't. It, and our
laws, either applies equally or they don't.
The term "Fighting for Our Freedoms" means Americans are willing to bear the
associated burden, die even. It's worth the price of liberty to do so.

FULL STOP.

Our country is being altered in very fundamental ways and I can't believe
it's going to fly. It probably is, I just can't believe it.


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com


  #33   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
G.W.
 
Posts: n/a
Default For Gunner


jim rozen wrote:

The current adminstration *tried* to ask congress for the ability
to do warrentless wiretapping on citizens in the US. They were
not allowed to this. The answer was "NO."

It also doesn't say "GW's house cannot be searched without a warrant."

So your house can now be entered and searched by the police, at any
time, without them having to obtain a warrant from a judge. Right?

You've just given up your rights under the fourth amendment, and you
didn't even know it.

Jim

Well, of course nobody wants the government "spying" on them but I'd
dare say that if we had another major Al Qaida attack and it was found
that the government was purposely Not monitoring communication of
overseas calls with Al Qaida suspects, there would be another round of
calls for impeachment.
Nobody is talking about breaking into anyone's house without a search
warrant. I could be wrong but I thought it was all about communications
to other countries with people suspected of having something to do with
terrorists. I also thought that the information found could not be used
in court, so if your French bookie called you there would be no worry.
GW

  #34   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
John R. Carroll
 
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G.W. wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:

G.W.,
You can't legistlate morality.
Be a better parent. What better opportunity is there to teach proper
moral behavior is there?
I do realize that many parents are simply to lazy or irresponsible
to be of much use as parents but that's the only real answer and
it's also the whole problem.
The same is true for abortion and other like issues. Making this
illegal won't appreciably reduce demand. If you want to reduce
demand bring kids up not to "demand" the things in the first place.
As long as that demand exists a supply will be at hand. That may
outrage some but the facts remain outrage or no...


Ok, I can go along with that up to a point. Raising moral children is
a good solution. On the other hand, you still don't want to live in a
society that has absolutely no limits. I don't think we need a whore
house on every corner under some bogus idea of "free speech".


Absent significant demand you wouldn't have such. No Bucks - No Buck Rogers
:)

I do, however, agree that clear limits need to be in place. THAT problem is
legistlative.


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com


  #35   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
G.W.
 
Posts: n/a
Default For Gunner


John R. Carroll wrote:
Our entire society ( American ) is based on the premise that we would rather
let the guilty go free in a pinch rather than sacrifice the governments
burden to prove guilt. That is where "beyond a reasonable doubt" comes in.
THIS is what's wrong with things like the Patriot Act and warrantless
searches. The presumption of innocence goes out the window in advance of any
process. The Constitution either means something or it doesn't. It, and our
laws, either applies equally or they don't.
The term "Fighting for Our Freedoms" means Americans are willing to bear the
associated burden, die even. It's worth the price of liberty to do so.


I agree that letting a guilty person go free might be better than
losing our freedom but what the uproar is all about is not that. It's
about possibly missing a chance to stop a major attack which could
result in a potential huge loss of life. Nobody is breaking into
houses. The phone calls monitored are overseas with suspected
terrorists or their friends. Maybe mistakes will be made but to not try
could be worse.
GW



  #36   Report Post  
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John R. Carroll
 
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G.W. wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:

I agree that letting a guilty person go free might be better than
losing our freedom but what the uproar is all about is not that.


It is the trade off that the Founding Fathers and their fellow citizens
knowingly and purposefully chose to make.
It isn't the goal to free the guilty, but to protect the innocent. Even if
those innocent are hateful or disgusting.
Disgusting isn't either illegal or actionable.

It's
about possibly missing a chance to stop a major attack which could
result in a potential huge loss of life.


I guess this is where we part company. I would rather eliminate the root
cause or at least resolve the situation to the point that our enemies either
fear the repercussions or stop wanting to attack violently.

Nobody is breaking into
houses. .


See "Sneak and Peak" and get back to me. My definition of "breaking in" is
unauthorized entry or entry and search absent notification or a warrant,
even if that entry is with a key.


The phone calls monitored are overseas with suspected
terrorists or their friends. Maybe mistakes will be made but to not
try could be worse.


What is in fact happening today is that the government is scooping it all
across a broad spectrum and THEN deciding what to do.
Point of isn't considered at all except that the collection is no longer
limited in any way territorially or nationality wise.


Where we seem to differ is in the "what to try" department.
I'd like to try the things that will remove the threat more permanently.
Treat the disease, if you will, at gunpoint or not. Whatever works.

Your position, if you will think for a moment, is to condone treating the
symptom while ignoring the disease.

I am not sure either of us is "right". In fact, I am not even sure there is
a "right" answer. What I am sure of is that sacrificing what has been won at
such tremendous cost would be, and is, wrong. Standing by our founding
principals is the only thing to do regardless. What's left to defend if we
don't?


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com


  #37   Report Post  
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Ed Huntress
 
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"G.W." wrote in message
oups.com...

Ed Huntress wrote:
Sorry, G.W., but "to be secure in your person" means the government

can't
invade your privacy without cause -- including your phone calls.

It's a little bit like the way we apply the 2nd Amendment today. The

FF's
were talking about muzzle-loading, flintlock muskets only. But most

people
here would expand the defininition of "arms," much like we have expanded

the
defininition of "secure in your person." New technology requires us to
consider how the *principle* applies to the new conditions.

As for "Al Qaeda-connected people," as a former administration lawyer
explained yesterday, all they know in most cases is that somebody

accused of
being Al Qaeda had their phone number on a computer database -- or that
somebody on the database had called them. There can be several degrees

of
separation. It could have been their manicurist when they visited the

US,
and the person whose phone is being tapped could turn out to be the
manicurist's bookie. g

--
Ed Huntress


I agree, for the most part, but I just hope that when we are "expanding
the definition" of the Constitution that we don't take it too far. For
example, the idea that "free speech" equals pornography. Maybe that
idea was expanded a tiny bit too far.


There we can agree as well. Doubtless it was political speech that they
intended to protect.

In general, I'm pleased that the idea has been expanded. There are limits,
but I think long and hard before I decide upon favoring one.

--
Ed Huntress


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Ed Huntress
 
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"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
. com...

G.W.,
You can't legistlate morality.


Feeling contrary today, I'm going to agree with Robert Bork on this one and
say that ALL legislation is legislation of morality. We make laws to
distinguish what we think is right from wrong; morality is the distinction
between right and wrong; all legislation is about morality.

I think what you're referring to here is primarily sexual behavior, maybe
with some social behavior added in. We effectively legislate against many
aspects of those things on which there is a large consensus. On others, the
consensus breaks down, and the laws are largely or partially ignored.

--
Ed Huntress


  #39   Report Post  
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John R. Carroll
 
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Default For Gunner

Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
. com...

G.W.,
You can't legistlate morality.


Feeling contrary today, I'm going to agree with Robert Bork on this
one and say that ALL legislation is legislation of morality. We make
laws to distinguish what we think is right from wrong; morality is
the distinction between right and wrong; all legislation is about
morality.


Borking me are you! That's novel. How many people can say they've been
Borked by Ed Huntress?
LOL
There is truth in that but the law flows from the constitution not the other
way around.
We are, after all, discussing the Federal interest here and not the State's.


I think what you're referring to here is primarily sexual behavior,
maybe with some social behavior added in. We effectively legislate
against many aspects of those things on which there is a large
consensus. On others, the consensus breaks down, and the laws are
largely or partially ignored.


Yes Ed, they are ignored. There is no fundamental principal involved.
This is results in a lack of respect for the law and has lead to the
enormous influence of small but influential groups of advocates of
particular points of view beyond the broader consensus.


--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com


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jim rozen
 
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In article .com, G.W. says...

I agree that letting a guilty person go free might be better than
losing our freedom but what the uproar is all about is not that.


It is EXACTLY about that, sir.

If you eliminate the fourth amendment 'just when they really need to'
then you have eliminated it for everyone, for all time.

You might as well just spool off the other 9 parts of the bill
of rights and light them on fire too.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
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