Don Bruder wrote:
Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.

Wrong, steel is easy to solder and to silver solder. For example, shotgun
barrel ribs are sweated on with lead/tin.

You got the rest of it pretty much right though.

Regards, Hoyt McKagen

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Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?

About 25 years ago, I learned a very few basics about soldering
electronics.
One was that you use different solders for plumbing, electronics, and
jewelry. But which kind do you use for art? (Also, it's likely the
technology and materials have changed since then.)

Please respond to the newsgroup and not to my email.

Thank you very much,

Ted Shoemaker

In article ,
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote:

Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?

About 25 years ago, I learned a very few basics about soldering
electronics.
One was that you use different solders for plumbing, electronics, and
jewelry. But which kind do you use for art? (Also, it's likely the
technology and materials have changed since then.)

Please respond to the newsgroup and not to my email.

Thank you very much,

Ted Shoemaker

Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.
You can gob on wads of solder and stick steel or aluminum pieces
together the way you'd stick, for instance, chunks of wood together
using a handful of clay - They'll be joined, yes, but don't count on
*ANYTHING* resembling structural strength, and you'll never get anything
even remotely like a proper solder joint out of the attempt. The metals
just aren't compatible (The solder simply won't "wet" them, so it can't
"grab on" the way you're probaby used to from electronics work) so it's
one of those "ain't gonna happen" things.

Until relatively recently, when lead-bearing solder was either outright
banned, or severely restricted for use in potable water plumbing work,
the main difference between the solders used for plumbing and
electronics work has been the flux - Plumbing uses acid flux,
electronics uses rosin. This is due to the differing ways that plumbing
and electronics tolerate (or fail to tolerate...) the inevitable
corrosion from acid left behind by anything other than an *ABSOLUTELY
PERFECT* cleanup job. Electronic gear doesn't like acid traces on the
board, and generally dies in fairly short order if acid flux is used.
This is partly due to the comparatively thin layers of metal being
worked with, and partly due to electrolytic action that starts happening
when the device is powered up. Plumbing, on the other hand, is heavier
gauge metal, usually homogenous (only joints are copper-copper, with no
possibility of copper-iron, copper-zinc, or similarly heterogenous
joints) and not subject to carrying current, so it's much more forgiving.

Jewelry is *USUALLY* done with silver solder, which, as the name
implies, usually means that the solder has at least some silver content
to it. It's a harder solder (in terms of the comparative placements each
would have on the Moh's hardness scale), and often, if not usually,
requires a higher heat to work with than tin/lead soldering; You can
solder using tin/lead solder with, depending on the exact alloy,
anything from a kitchen match to a propane torch, while silver solder
often requires a MAPP gas torch to get into the heat range needed to
make it flow properly, and for the *REALLY* hard silver-solder alloys,
might even require a small oxy-acetylene rig.

As far as "art" soldering... shrug Never encountered the concept, but
at a guess, I'd say that if it involves steel, it's probably actually
brazing (which is BASICALLY soldering with brass or bronze solder,
rather than tin/lead or tin/silver), and if it involves aluminum, it's
more likely TIG welding.

--
Don Bruder - --- Preferred Email - SpamAssassinated.
Hate SPAM? See http://www.spamassassin.org for some seriously great info.
I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart
Fly trap info pages: http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html

Don Bruder wrote:

In article ,
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote:


Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?

About 25 years ago, I learned a very few basics about soldering
electronics.
One was that you use different solders for plumbing, electronics, and
jewelry. But which kind do you use for art? (Also, it's likely the
technology and materials have changed since then.)

Please respond to the newsgroup and not to my email.

Thank you very much,

Ted Shoemaker


Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.

I've soldered thin stainless many, many times with great
success. You have to clean it and give it a 'tooth' with
sandpaper, tin it with good acid flux then make the joint.
Thin sheet steel should work just as well.

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote:

Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?
snip
Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.
You can gob on wads of solder and stick steel or aluminum pieces
together the way you'd stick, for instance, chunks of wood together
using a handful of clay - They'll be joined, yes, but don't count on
*ANYTHING* resembling structural strength, and you'll never get anything

You can achieve a reasonable solder joint to aluminium.
Very hot iron, sandpapered while oily, solder through the oil.
Not especially easy.

In article ,
says...
In article ,
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote:

Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.


Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.

Solder will work just fine on steel. Cleanliness is
important, and a more active flux than you might use for
copper may be helpful, but regular old No-Korode will work
with careful prep. The limiting factor for typical lead/tin
solder will be the solder itself, not the bond.

It's also possible, but not straighforward, to solder
aluminum with Pb/Sn solder. One trick mentioned often on
this NG is to clean and solder under a film of oil to
inhibit the rapid formation of the oxide layer.

You can gob on wads of solder and stick steel or aluminum pieces
together the way you'd stick, for instance, chunks of wood together
using a handful of clay - They'll be joined, yes, but don't count on
*ANYTHING* resembling structural strength, and you'll never get anything
even remotely like a proper solder joint out of the attempt. The metals
just aren't compatible (The solder simply won't "wet" them, so it can't
"grab on" the way you're probaby used to from electronics work) so it's
one of those "ain't gonna happen" things.

Until relatively recently, when lead-bearing solder was either outright
banned, or severely restricted for use in potable water plumbing work,
the main difference between the solders used for plumbing and
electronics work has been the flux - Plumbing uses acid flux,
electronics uses rosin.

Nokorode, perhaps the most widely used plumber's flux for
at least 50 years is zinc chloride and ammonium chloride in
petrolatum (Vaseline). Not an acid flux, but not something
you'd use on a circuit board either.

For the OP, the silver bearing soft soft solders -e.g., All
State 430, Harris Stay Brite (sp?)- are good for decorative
work. They are substantially stronger than lead/tin and
stay shiny with time. Since they do not flow as well as
lead/tin they do require better heat control to get good
results. Also more expensive.

Choice of flux for these solders is similar to lead/tin.
Nokorode is fine for most uses, but there are acid fluxes
that allow soldering stainless steel and other difficult
materials. The acid fluxes (All State Duzall is one) are
trickier to use as they are prone to burning when
overheated, especially a problem with a torch.

Ned Simmons

From other threads regarding the joining of aluminium with these
special rods you can buy, they are apparently very high in zinc. It
would be interesting to see if you could join aluminium to steel or
galvanised steel with them.

Checkmate wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:36:46 GMT, Don Bruder put forth the notion
that...

In article ,
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote:

Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?

About 25 years ago, I learned a very few basics about soldering
electronics.
One was that you use different solders for plumbing, electronics, and
jewelry. But which kind do you use for art? (Also, it's likely the
technology and materials have changed since then.)

Please respond to the newsgroup and not to my email.

Thank you very much,

Ted Shoemaker

Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.
You can gob on wads of solder and stick steel or aluminum pieces
together the way you'd stick, for instance, chunks of wood together
using a handful of clay - They'll be joined, yes, but don't count on
*ANYTHING* resembling structural strength, and you'll never get anything
even remotely like a proper solder joint out of the attempt. The metals
just aren't compatible (The solder simply won't "wet" them, so it can't
"grab on" the way you're probaby used to from electronics work) so it's
one of those "ain't gonna happen" things.

Until relatively recently, when lead-bearing solder was either outright
banned, or severely restricted for use in potable water plumbing work,
the main difference between the solders used for plumbing and
electronics work has been the flux - Plumbing uses acid flux,
electronics uses rosin. This is due to the differing ways that plumbing
and electronics tolerate (or fail to tolerate...) the inevitable
corrosion from acid left behind by anything other than an *ABSOLUTELY
PERFECT* cleanup job. Electronic gear doesn't like acid traces on the
board, and generally dies in fairly short order if acid flux is used.
This is partly due to the comparatively thin layers of metal being
worked with, and partly due to electrolytic action that starts happening
when the device is powered up. Plumbing, on the other hand, is heavier
gauge metal, usually homogenous (only joints are copper-copper, with no
possibility of copper-iron, copper-zinc, or similarly heterogenous
joints) and not subject to carrying current, so it's much more forgiving.

Jewelry is *USUALLY* done with silver solder, which, as the name
implies, usually means that the solder has at least some silver content
to it. It's a harder solder (in terms of the comparative placements each
would have on the Moh's hardness scale), and often, if not usually,
requires a higher heat to work with than tin/lead soldering; You can
solder using tin/lead solder with, depending on the exact alloy,
anything from a kitchen match to a propane torch, while silver solder
often requires a MAPP gas torch to get into the heat range needed to
make it flow properly, and for the *REALLY* hard silver-solder alloys,
might even require a small oxy-acetylene rig.

As far as "art" soldering... shrug Never encountered the concept, but
at a guess, I'd say that if it involves steel, it's probably actually
brazing (which is BASICALLY soldering with brass or bronze solder,
rather than tin/lead or tin/silver), and if it involves aluminum, it's
more likely TIG welding.


There's a rod for aluminum to aluminum now that works pretty well, but
it won't stick it to any other metal. It's more like brazing than
soldering, but you can do it with propane or MAPP gas.

In article ,
Hoyt McKagen wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:
Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.

Wrong, steel is easy to solder and to silver solder. For example, shotgun
barrel ribs are sweated on with lead/tin.

You got the rest of it pretty much right though.

Hmmm... Apparently, based on the multiple "Hey, dummy, you can too
solder steel!" messages, all my attempts at soldering steel (stainless
or otherwise) have been done wrong, since I've *NEVER*, in dozens of
atempts, had even the slightest success in getting the solder to "wet"
the steel. I can make neat looking little balls of solder that are stuck
to the steel by the remains of whatever flux I've tried using
(everything from rosin to acid to one fellow's suggestion years ago, a
mixture of borax, sugar, and vaseline), and anything else that even
KINDA sounded reasonable and not instantly toxic), but no matter what
I've tried, I can't make a joint that has anything that could be
mistaken for a structural strength above absolutely nil. Most of my
attempts haven't even been able to support their own weight for more
than a second before the joint gives, and close exmination of the joint
always reveals the classic "cold solder" problem quite clearly.

So it would seem I've been going about it wrong. Maybe some day, when I
have another situation that needs something soldered to steel, I'll try
to chase down a "proper" method, but for right now, trying to educate me
on how to do it would be a waste of effort for both of us, since I
haven't the interest to sit down and learn it. (zero practical
motivation for doing so at this time - ask me again next month when I
figure out that soldering would be the best way to deal with some new
project involving steel that's caught my attention! )

--
Don Bruder - --- Preferred Email - SpamAssassinated.
Hate SPAM? See http://www.spamassassin.org for some seriously great info.
I will choose a path that's clear: I will choose Free Will! - N. Peart
Fly trap info pages: http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/Horses/FlyTrap/index.html

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
news
Hmmm... Apparently, based on the multiple "Hey, dummy, you can too
solder steel!" messages, all my attempts at soldering steel (stainless
or otherwise) have been done wrong, since I've *NEVER*, in dozens of
atempts, had even the slightest success in getting the solder to "wet"
the steel.

I can usually get a good joint on galvy with just rosin solder. Sand
off any oxides then tin. Make sure not to overheat the joint as the
zinc layer is dissolved by the tin and leaves a weird gray or black
surface that's impossible to tin.
For bare steel, file or sand down to shiny metal and go for it. Maybe
a bit more heat than usually needed (bright copper being usual) to get
the rosin going good.

I've never got anything to stick to SS, but then I don't have much SS
nor do I have a reasonable acid flux. Heck.. I don't have _any_ acid
flux right now.

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"David Billington" wrote in message
...
From other threads regarding the joining of aluminium with these
special rods you can buy, they are apparently very high in zinc. It
would be interesting to see if you could join aluminium to steel or
galvanised steel with them.

One day I was trying to melt a small soup can of zinc on the stove...
An hour later it was just barely melted and I gave up, poured off what
I could and busted out the rest. Problem is... it was stuck. Had to
peel the can off the zinc block! Basically it soldered itself on.
Any steel-zinc joint will be similarly weak, just like any other soft-
soldered joint.
I've tried said aluminum brazing before, seems to work. I bet if you
tinned the aluminum and steel with the rod, then stuck them together
(with a bit of flux of course) it'd work. The weak point would be the
zinc/steel joint.

From my metal melting experience I don't see why you wouldn't be able to
braze steel with aluminum, only problem is flux.

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Don Bruder wrote:

.. you don't solder steel .. Period.

I have also had terrible luck getting anything to wet steel. However, I
found that a lot of my problem was that I was sanding the steel shiny,
and something about the abrasives was leaving an invisible layer covering
the steel and preventing the flux from working. I had success when I first
scrubbed with steel wool and then washed with acetone, also I had to get
"black flux" which operated at a higher temp. Then I could get it to wet
but it still wasn't easy. Sure wish someone would come teach me.

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote:

Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?

About 25 years ago, I learned a very few basics about soldering
electronics.
One was that you use different solders for plumbing, electronics, and
jewelry. But which kind do you use for art? (Also, it's likely the
technology and materials have changed since then.)

Please respond to the newsgroup and not to my email.

Thank you very much,

Ted Shoemaker

Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.

Don, steel is very easy to solder, and it's done all the time. You probably
aren't using a sufficiently active flux.

Aluminum is a mixed bag. It depends on the alloy. Many aluminum radiators
used to be soldered together; they probably still are. I've been soldering
aluminum for over 30 years and, for the last 25, at least, I've had no
trouble with it. Use 1100 (pure aluminum) or 3003 alloy if you have a
choice. Don't try to solder 2024.

I also have soldered glass. Yes, solder wets glass. It's a process used in
making some scientific apparatus, which is where I learned how to do it.
Don't ask me the details; it's been too long for me to remember.

Anyway, soldering aluminum is not for the beginner, but steel is the first
thing I learned to solder, and the entire tinner's trade was based on it.

I'm sure there's info on each of these processes online.

Ed Huntress

"Checkmate" wrote in message
...


There's a rod for aluminum to aluminum now that works pretty well, but
it won't stick it to any other metal. It's more like brazing than
soldering, but you can do it with propane or MAPP gas.

I have an entire book, published by Alcoa some years ago, about soldering
aluminum. This is ordinary soft solder they were talking about, although
there are some alloys that make it easier.

The idea that you can't use ordinary soft solder on aluminum is a mistake.
It's been done in industry since at least the 1920s.

Ed Huntress

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
news


So it would seem I've been going about it wrong. Maybe some day, when I
have another situation that needs something soldered to steel, I'll try
to chase down a "proper" method, but for right now, trying to educate me
on how to do it would be a waste of effort for both of us, since I
haven't the interest to sit down and learn it. (zero practical
motivation for doing so at this time - ask me again next month when I
figure out that soldering would be the best way to deal with some new
project involving steel that's caught my attention! )

When you get around to it, ask the people at Kester solder. They'll give you
complete details on soldering both plain carbon steels and stainless. It
helps to watch someone do it, because you may be burning the flux off or
trying to do it with insufficient heat.

Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

Anyway, soldering aluminum is not for the beginner, but steel is the first
thing I learned to solder, and the entire tinner's trade was based on it.

Possibly the biggest problem with soldering aluminum, is
that it 'looks' like steel.

So the beginner will attempt to solder it with an iron that would
be sized correctly for steel. Big mistake.

Even with the correct solder and flux, aluminum has such a
high heat conductivity that the entire part must be brought
to temperature before a joint will flow. Don't think steel,
think solid copper. That's how much heat sink there is.

Aside from the commercial fluxes for soldering aluminum,
the oil/scratch technique works, and also it can be done
with an ultrasonic soldering iron, which breaks down the
oxide layer and permits the solder to wet the metal. This
will do niobium, too.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

(Ted Shoemaker) wrote in message . com...
Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?
[...]

My experience is with soldering for electronics, but I think I can
safely tell you that steel cannot be soldered and aluminum is very
difficult to solder. Hopefully you only want to attach these metals to
themselves and not to each other. What you might want to look into is
MIG welding.

The rod is called either alumaloy or alumiweld. They make versions for
steel and cast. I beleive the alumaloy will join aluminum to steel but I
am not positive. Do a search on google for alumaloy or alumiweld and
you can read all about them. One note is that most outlets for these
products are franchised, I think the product was turned over to some
direct marketers at some point and they are marketing it through a
million individuals so check the pricing. I have found different places
selling it for wildly different prices. Some places you can get almost
twice as much for the same price.

Mark

David Billington wrote:
From other threads regarding the joining of aluminium with these
special rods you can buy, they are apparently very high in zinc. It
would be interesting to see if you could join aluminium to steel or
galvanised steel with them.

Checkmate wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:36:46 GMT, Don Bruder put forth the notion that...

In article ,
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote:

Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.
If I want to make a small art project with common metals (steel,
copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?

About 25 years ago, I learned a very few basics about soldering
electronics.
One was that you use different solders for plumbing, electronics, and
jewelry. But which kind do you use for art? (Also, it's likely the
technology and materials have changed since then.)

Please respond to the newsgroup and not to my email.

Thank you very much,

Ted Shoemaker

Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.
You can gob on wads of solder and stick steel or aluminum pieces
together the way you'd stick, for instance, chunks of wood together
using a handful of clay - They'll be joined, yes, but don't count on
*ANYTHING* resembling structural strength, and you'll never get
anything even remotely like a proper solder joint out of the attempt.
The metals just aren't compatible (The solder simply won't "wet"
them, so it can't "grab on" the way you're probaby used to from
electronics work) so it's one of those "ain't gonna happen" things.

Until relatively recently, when lead-bearing solder was either
outright banned, or severely restricted for use in potable water
plumbing work, the main difference between the solders used for
plumbing and electronics work has been the flux - Plumbing uses acid
flux, electronics uses rosin. This is due to the differing ways that
plumbing and electronics tolerate (or fail to tolerate...) the
inevitable corrosion from acid left behind by anything other than an
*ABSOLUTELY PERFECT* cleanup job. Electronic gear doesn't like acid
traces on the board, and generally dies in fairly short order if acid
flux is used. This is partly due to the comparatively thin layers of
metal being worked with, and partly due to electrolytic action that
starts happening when the device is powered up. Plumbing, on the
other hand, is heavier gauge metal, usually homogenous (only joints
are copper-copper, with no possibility of copper-iron, copper-zinc,
or similarly heterogenous joints) and not subject to carrying
current, so it's much more forgiving.

Jewelry is *USUALLY* done with silver solder, which, as the name
implies, usually means that the solder has at least some silver
content to it. It's a harder solder (in terms of the comparative
placements each would have on the Moh's hardness scale), and often,
if not usually, requires a higher heat to work with than tin/lead
soldering; You can solder using tin/lead solder with, depending on
the exact alloy, anything from a kitchen match to a propane torch,
while silver solder often requires a MAPP gas torch to get into the
heat range needed to make it flow properly, and for the *REALLY* hard
silver-solder alloys, might even require a small oxy-acetylene rig.

As far as "art" soldering... shrug Never encountered the concept,
but at a guess, I'd say that if it involves steel, it's probably
actually brazing (which is BASICALLY soldering with brass or bronze
solder, rather than tin/lead or tin/silver), and if it involves
aluminum, it's more likely TIG welding.


There's a rod for aluminum to aluminum now that works pretty well, but
it won't stick it to any other metal. It's more like brazing than
soldering, but you can do it with propane or MAPP gas.

In article , Dave says...

My experience is with soldering for electronics, but I think I can
safely tell you that steel cannot be soldered ...

You may be quite knowledgeable about soldering for
electronics, but the statement about steel being
non-solderable is simply out-and-out wrong.

Honest.

I do this every day.

Plain carbon steel, or stainless steel.

Both can be trivially soft soldered.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Dave" wrote in message
om...
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote in message
. com...
Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?
[...]

My experience is with soldering for electronics, but I think I can
safely tell you that steel cannot be soldered and aluminum is very
difficult to solder. Hopefully you only want to attach these metals to
themselves and not to each other. What you might want to look into is
MIG welding.

After copper and brass, steel is one of the easiest metals to solder, Dave.

Ed Huntress

I never have had any luck soldering stainless with regular lead / tin
solder either. Maybe the tin / 5% silver solders will do some
stainless steels, but I am confident that there are some stainless
steels that either take an exotic solder or can't be done with low
temp solder.

Dan


"Tim Williams" wrote in message


I've never got anything to stick to SS, but then I don't have much SS
nor do I have a reasonable acid flux. Heck.. I don't have _any_ acid
flux right now.

Tim

The older fluxes contained a high amount of metal ions - zinc IIRC.
This plated the metal and the flux that was a chlorine based etched the
metal for the plating process to keep it from oxidizing again.

I think a lot of this has changed through the years with the water based
fluxes and get the lead out solders.

for Stainless steel - HCL 1 part , zinc chloride 1 part.
for cast iron Zinc Chloride 15 parts, sodium chloride 3 parts,
ammonium chloride 2 parts
Al Bronze and Si Bronze - HCL 1 part, zinc chloride 1 part, water 4
parts
Zinc base die casting - not much hope - I suggest electro or flash
plating of copper then solder on that.

Soldering and Brazing by a.r. Turpin - U.K. printing - ISBN 0 85344 098
0 Nice little book.

Naturally the HCL is hydrochloric - you can use swimming pool acid -
Muriatic a lower grade from lab qual.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

I've heard that pure TIN is used on Al - then once it is integrated,
other solders can be added to it.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

I have Electronic chassis in the shop both Al and Steel. The chassis
is the ground (plane :-) ) and there is a common big ugly solder spot
inside.
These were audio and high quality in nature.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.net...
I also have soldered glass. Yes, solder wets glass. It's a process used in
making some scientific apparatus, which is where I learned how to do it.
Don't ask me the details; it's been too long for me to remember.

I wonder if the alloy contained gallium or indium?

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Not sure about soft solder but in th UK you can buy a special silver
solder flux for stainless which is much more agressive the the normal
stuff for steel. My neighbour has used some and I have seen the results
and a sectioned test piece. All worked extremely well.

Don Bruder wrote:

In article ,
Hoyt McKagen wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:

Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.

Wrong, steel is easy to solder and to silver solder. For example, shotgun
barrel ribs are sweated on with lead/tin.

You got the rest of it pretty much right though.


Hmmm... Apparently, based on the multiple "Hey, dummy, you can too
solder steel!" messages, all my attempts at soldering steel (stainless
or otherwise) have been done wrong, since I've *NEVER*, in dozens of
atempts, had even the slightest success in getting the solder to "wet"
the steel. I can make neat looking little balls of solder that are stuck
to the steel by the remains of whatever flux I've tried using
(everything from rosin to acid to one fellow's suggestion years ago, a
mixture of borax, sugar, and vaseline), and anything else that even
KINDA sounded reasonable and not instantly toxic), but no matter what
I've tried, I can't make a joint that has anything that could be
mistaken for a structural strength above absolutely nil. Most of my
attempts haven't even been able to support their own weight for more
than a second before the joint gives, and close exmination of the joint
always reveals the classic "cold solder" problem quite clearly.

So it would seem I've been going about it wrong. Maybe some day, when I
have another situation that needs something soldered to steel, I'll try
to chase down a "proper" method, but for right now, trying to educate me
on how to do it would be a waste of effort for both of us, since I
haven't the interest to sit down and learn it. (zero practical
motivation for doing so at this time - ask me again next month when I
figure out that soldering would be the best way to deal with some new
project involving steel that's caught my attention! )

1 you can solder alumimum if you use the right type of solder in fact you
can solder alumimum to copper ( as used in some car alternators )
you can solder ferrous metals
2 ( they used to use solder as body filler in car bodies before plastic
fillers (bog)
3 you can braze alumimum to zinc
all with perfect results

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.net...


"Dave" wrote in message
om...
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote in message
. com...
Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?
[...]

My experience is with soldering for electronics, but I think I can
safely tell you that steel cannot be soldered and aluminum is very
difficult to solder. Hopefully you only want to attach these metals to
themselves and not to each other. What you might want to look into is
MIG welding.

After copper and brass, steel is one of the easiest metals to solder,
Dave.

Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message v.net...
"Dave" wrote in message
om...
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote in message
. com...
Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?
[...]

My experience is with soldering for electronics, but I think I can
safely tell you that steel cannot be soldered and aluminum is very
difficult to solder. Hopefully you only want to attach these metals to
themselves and not to each other. What you might want to look into is
MIG welding.

After copper and brass, steel is one of the easiest metals to solder, Dave.

Ed Huntress

I'm not convinced. I think you guys may be confusing soldering to zinc
with soldering to steel, but I'll admit I don't know much about it.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:17:56 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:

I've *NEVER*, in dozens of
atempts, had even the slightest success in getting the solder to "wet"
the steel.

So why not ? Sounds like you're using the wrong flux.

Baker's Fluid / killed spirits / zinc hydrochloride (take
hydrochloric acid - dissolve an excess of zinc in it) works fine as a
flux for steel. That and either a gas heated iron. or a large electric
one.

Strip any plating off first too.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

In article , Dan Caster says...

I never have had any luck soldering stainless with regular lead / tin
solder either. Maybe the tin / 5% silver solders will do some
stainless steels, but I am confident that there are some stainless
steels that either take an exotic solder or can't be done with low
temp solder.

While soft soldering stainless is a bit tougher, because of the
extremely low thermal conductivity, it can easily be done with
the correct active flux. I use "Duntons" liquid stainless
flux, which works well except the mist and fumes that come
off are a bit corrosive.

I've found that the key to doing a good stainless joint
is to carefully pre-tin the part. This really takes less
heat than is imagined - the stainless has such low
thermal conductivity that even large thick parts can
be surface tinned with a small iron or gun. The part will
heat locally and the solder will wet the surface nicely.

One common mistake is using too much heat, and overheating
the flux, and burning it off before the solder has a chance
to wet down. Also using rosin cored solder is not the best,
as the rosin for this application is not really a flux, but
a contaminant that the acid flux has to overcome before it
works properly.

Once the stainless part is tinned properly, once, it can
be sweated without the use of stainless flux - ZnCl or
rosin flux can be used to attach a tinned stainless part
to copper brass or steel.

Because the Silver-Tin solder (eutectic 151 is my favorite)
is so much stronger, and does not contain any rosin, and has
a low vapor pressure (no lead) it is my favorite for doing
the odd vacuum system job where stainless parts have to
be soft soldered.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Yes indium will wet glass and is a main or entire constituent of solders
for glass. You also get some other weird thing such as mercury
replacement alloys with indium. One URL is www.indium.com . Would like
to try it as I blow glass and soldering it sounded interesting. Tried to
get some and got a quote of £10/gram and minimum 25 grams. Didn't want
to spend that much. I think its about the same price as 24 carat gold.

Tim Williams wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
v.net...

I also have soldered glass. Yes, solder wets glass. It's a process used in
making some scientific apparatus, which is where I learned how to do it.
Don't ask me the details; it's been too long for me to remember.


I wonder if the alloy contained gallium or indium?

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article , David Billington
says...

Yes indium will wet glass and is a main or entire constituent of solders
for glass.

One of the problems with indium as a solder is
that the oxide is water soluble. So if a joint
is likely to get wet, it will oxidize and the oxide
will wash away, and then the joint will oxidize
more, and eventually the joint will crumble into
dust.

It may be that some of the indium alloy solders
have the alloy components chosen to eliminate that
problem - but it does show up when using indium
as a low temperature solder in electronics work.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.net...
I also have soldered glass. Yes, solder wets glass. It's a process used
in
making some scientific apparatus, which is where I learned how to do it.
Don't ask me the details; it's been too long for me to remember.

I wonder if the alloy contained gallium or indium?

No, it's done with tin/lead solder. It was used to make a lot of electronic
hardware during WWII. You probably could look it up.

Ed Huntress

"Dan Caster" wrote in message
m...
I never have had any luck soldering stainless with regular lead / tin
solder either. Maybe the tin / 5% silver solders will do some
stainless steels, but I am confident that there are some stainless
steels that either take an exotic solder or can't be done with low
temp solder.

I think that most of the people here who have had difficulties soldering one
material or another are looking at it from the wrong angle. It isn't the
solder. It's the surface preparation and fluxing.

Ed Huntress

"jim rozen" wrote in message ...
In article , Dave says...

My experience is with soldering for electronics, but I think I can
safely tell you that steel cannot be soldered ...

You may be quite knowledgeable about soldering for
electronics, but the statement about steel being
non-solderable is simply out-and-out wrong.

Honest.

I do this every day.

Plain carbon steel, or stainless steel.

Both can be trivially soft soldered.

Jim,

I agree whole heartedly. Soft soldering steel and/or stainless steel
is very easy to do. I commonly solder stainless with great results.

I use Harris Stay-Brite 8 Silver Bearing Solder and Harris Stay-
Clean soldering flux for all metals other than aluminum and I use
Harris Stay-Clean Aluminum flux for aluminum soldering. The
solder is the same.

You can check it out on the Harris website:
http://www.jwharris.com - just follow their link for soldering
alloys.

PJ - (not affiliated)

"Dave" wrote in message
om...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
v.net...
"Dave" wrote in message
om...
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote in message
. com...
Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?
[...]

My experience is with soldering for electronics, but I think I can
safely tell you that steel cannot be soldered and aluminum is very
difficult to solder. Hopefully you only want to attach these metals to
themselves and not to each other. What you might want to look into is
MIG welding.

After copper and brass, steel is one of the easiest metals to solder,
Dave.

Ed Huntress

I'm not convinced. I think you guys may be confusing soldering to zinc
with soldering to steel, but I'll admit I don't know much about it.

Here's a quote from Kester's flux pages:

==========================

For soldering aluminum to copper, to aluminum, and to stainless steel. The
chemistry of Kester #2600 Aluminum Flux activates on metal surfaces at
350-550°F. Excellent for aluminum to copper soldering when used with a 91%
tin / 9% zinc alloy, 390°F m.p.
Kester Part # Description Packaging
63-0000-2600 #2600 Aluminum Flux 4 L / 1 Gal Jug
#2600 Aluminum Flux 20 L / 5 Gal Jug
#2600 Aluminum Flux 200 L / 53 Gal Drum

Steel and Stainless Steel Torch Soldering
#715 For soldering copper, nickel, and most mild steel torch soldering
applications such as in plumbing.

#817 For efficient soldering of nickel-chrome and stainless steel with a
soldering torch or iron.

==============================

Tinsmiths have been soldering steel and iron for at least 100 years using
zinc-chloride fluxes. That's what body repairmen used to use (a few still
do) for solder-filling of auto body panels -- plain, low carbon steel. The
"lead" filler used in premium car restoration work actually is a lead/tin
solder that's far from the eutectoid alloy percentages, which makes it pasty
so it can be spread with a paddle. You "tin" the body steel first using the
same solder. It wets beautifully if you have your technique down pat.

Active fluxes such as hydrochloric acid and zinc chloride are not common
items in hardware stores today, and a lot has been forgotten about soldering
among many metalworkers. But the range of metals you can solder covers
almost everything we use, if you know how to do it. The information is still
available. You just have to go looking for it.

BTW, in my first metalshop class, in 6th grade, we had to make our own
zinc-chloride flux and sweat-solder a "tin" cup (plain carbon steel,
although a few lucky guys got to use tinplate -- they ran out before my
project came up, and I had to use plain oiled steel sheet), so that it
didn't leak water. Oh, and we used soldering coppers that you heated in an
oven. No electric soldering irons were allowed. Yes, that was a very long
time ago. g

Ed Huntress

Thanks for the information! - Now I'll have to dig it out of my shop
desk and put it in a vault! I have some made by Ultra-Pure for Doping
silicon in the 'old days'. It was for diodes - a carbide plate drilled
with hundreds of holes - shake over - fill each hole - put into oven run
to a high temp C in a xtal oven..... slice, dice and add leads.

Hum - just in time for a Christmas tree - hum...

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


David Billington wrote:

Yes indium will wet glass and is a main or entire constituent of solders
for glass. You also get some other weird thing such as mercury
replacement alloys with indium. One URL is www.indium.com . Would like
to try it as I blow glass and soldering it sounded interesting. Tried to
get some and got a quote of £10/gram and minimum 25 grams. Didn't want
to spend that much. I think its about the same price as 24 carat gold.

Tim Williams wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
v.net...

I also have soldered glass. Yes, solder wets glass. It's a process used in
making some scientific apparatus, which is where I learned how to do it.
Don't ask me the details; it's been too long for me to remember.


I wonder if the alloy contained gallium or indium?

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:36:46 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.

I do both routinely. Just buy the right solder.

I like Harris Staybrite, a low-temp silver-tin alloy for steel,
stainless, brass, bronze, copper and every other metal I've tried it
on other than aluminum. I don't recall the working temp but it's
under 500F. A soldering gun or iron or propane torch works fine.
It readily wets any of the metals I mentioned and it's quite strong
-- 24,000 PSI IIRC. It would be good for art work because it's
color match with steel and stainless is very good. Flux is ordinary
tinner's fluid.

For aluminum solder that works beautifully, , two sources: Aladdin
and TinManTechnology. ESAB #31 also works well. It's closer to
brazing, but the stuff works like magic on thin aluminum, wets and
flows almost like silversolder does on brass. I've made joints with
thinwall tubing thru thin plate by fluxing the joint, placing a
preform ring of solder at the joint and heating the work until the
solder melted and the joint made itself with a nice fillet. I have
photos if you doubt it.

It must be used with companion #31 flux. Both are available from
W.W. Grainger.

Stainless steel type 304 and 316can be silver soldeereed using a
high-temperature flux, but beware - the silver solders I have used contain
some zinc, which embrittles stainless at red heat, so to make thin
stainless bits join together, I had to work quickly and quench quickly,
before the zinc could work its way in between the steel crystals. Any
interest?

-G.H.Ireland

--
igor
_____________________________________________
Acorn RISC OS4
_____________________________________________

I'd be interested in learning more about this. Wonder what kind of solder?
Lead, silver? Sounds interesting.

--
Bill Browne
Computer for work http://excalibur-dbf.com
Metal & glass for fun http://w.browne.home.att.net

"Daniel A. Mitchell" wrote in message
...
I don't know all the details, but my dad worked in an aircraft
instrument plant during the Korean War, and they soldered glass all the
time. The main thing I can remember about it is that it was done while
submerged in hot oil baths. For one thing, this brought the glass up to
soldering temperature without local thermal shock.

Dan Mitchell
==========

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Ted Shoemaker) wrote:

Hello,

I have some basic questions about soldering.

If I want to make a small art project with common metals
(steel, copper, aluminum, etc.), what do I need to know about
soldering?

About 25 years ago, I learned a very few basics about soldering
electronics.
One was that you use different solders for plumbing, electronics,
and
jewelry. But which kind do you use for art? (Also, it's likely the
technology and materials have changed since then.)

Please respond to the newsgroup and not to my email.

Thank you very much,

Ted Shoemaker

Well, first thing is that you don't solder steel or aluminum. Period.

Don, steel is very easy to solder, and it's done all the time. You
probably
aren't using a sufficiently active flux.

Aluminum is a mixed bag. It depends on the alloy. Many aluminum
radiators
used to be soldered together; they probably still are. I've been
soldering
aluminum for over 30 years and, for the last 25, at least, I've had no
trouble with it. Use 1100 (pure aluminum) or 3003 alloy if you have a
choice. Don't try to solder 2024.

I also have soldered glass. Yes, solder wets glass. It's a process used
in
making some scientific apparatus, which is where I learned how to do it.
Don't ask me the details; it's been too long for me to remember.

Anyway, soldering aluminum is not for the beginner, but steel is the
first
thing I learned to solder, and the entire tinner's trade was based on
it.

I'm sure there's info on each of these processes online.

Ed Huntress

"Bill Browne" wrote in message
...
I'd be interested in learning more about this. Wonder what kind of
solder?
Lead, silver? Sounds interesting.

I think you're going to have to dig into some really old stuff to find
specific answers to this. I've been trying to remember the details, and some
of it has come back, but not all of it.

I did this a few times when our shop was making scientific apparatus for a
local university lab. Instructions came with the job. Roughly, it was this:
Etch the glass lightly with (I think) nitric acid. The acid etch isn't
absolutely necessary but it's generally used on jobs that require a good
hermetic seal, which is what this was.

Then you "tin," or actually metallize, the glass with metal powder and a
borate flux, using a torch flame and heating the glass hot enough to get the
metal to flow. IIRC, the powder we used was either silver or tin.

Once the glass is metallized you can solder it any way you want. The specs
on our job called for ordinary tin/lead solder (this was around 1974). Of
course you have to be careful about heating the glass evenly, but the job
itself was pretty easy. I did a number of them with no previous experience,
and they all passed a pressure test.

Ed Huntress