In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:07:55 GMT, Name wrote:
In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Whenever you burn a hydrocarbon, you'll get H2O and CO2.

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:
In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.

Mike Berger wrote:
Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:
In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.


Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca

Perhaps take a moment to read the following:

Kerosene heater safety guidelines
Follow these recommendations when buying and using a portable kerosene
heater.
Use only listed heaters

Only heaters that have been tested and listed in accordance with
Underwriters' Laboratories (UL) Standard 647 should be purchased and
used. This listing should be shown on the name plate of the heater.

Use the correct fuel

The National Kerosene Heater Association, the American Petroleum
Institute, the Consumer Product Safety Commission and others recommend
only 1-K kerosene be used in these heaters. According to American
Society of Testing and Materials Standard D-3699, "Standard
specifications for kerosene," there are two types of kerosene fuels,
1-K and 2-K. The primary difference is sulfur content. Type 1-K
contains 0.04 percent sulfur by weight and 2-K contains 0.30 percent
sulfur by weight. The higher sulfur content of 2-K fuel tends to
adversely affect proper fuel wicking and increases sulfur dioxide
emissions. The use of 2-K kerosene creates the need for frequent wick
cleaning and maintenance that, if not carried out properly, may produce
a fire or explosion hazard.

The distinction between 1-K and 2-K kerosene fuels cannot be made
through visual examination. The terms "water clear" or "clear white"
are often used to describe the type of kerosene that can be used in the
unvented heater. Although water clear or clear white kerosene may be
1-K in most cases, color should not be used as a sole indicator. The
type of crude from which the kerosene is refined, temperature, aging
and contamination can all cause kerosene to yellow and become darker.
So if the retail dealer does not specifically market the kerosene as
the 1-K type of fuel, you should assume the product is not 1-K
kerosene. Find a dealer who can certify you are buying 1-K grade
kerosene.

In addition, never use diesel, jet "A" fuel, No. 1 fuel oil, No. 2 fuel
oil or gasoline in your heater. The use of any of these fuels could
result in a fire or explosion that could cause death or injury.

Proper clearances from combustible material

The heater should be kept a minimum distance of 36 inches from all
combustible materials such as curtains or furniture unless otherwise
specified by the manufacturer. If fewer than 36 inches are acceptable,
the manufacturer will specify on the name plate. Do not use flammable
solvents, aerosol sprays or lacquers near the heater. Do not operate
the heater in the same room where other flammable liquids such as
gasoline are stored. Don't operate in dusty environments. The surface
temperature of some units can exceed 500 degrees F, which can ignite
flammable liquids, combustible liquids, flammable vapors or grain dusts
and result in a fire or explosion.

Provide required maintenance and upkeep

Consult your operator's manual for instructions or recommended
maintenance and upkeep to ensure the heater's proper operation.
Required maintenance should include periodically cleaning the unit,
trimming the wick, cleaning off soot and carbon, inspecting for fuel
leaks and other maintenance procedures recommended by the manufacturer.
If you suspect the heater is not working properly, extinguish it
immediately and allow it to cool. Then perform the necessary
maintenance or take it to a qualified service center for repair.

Don't take a chance

An improperly operating heater can result in a fire or can generate an
excessive amount of the byproducts of combustion: soot, carbon monoxide
and sulfur dioxide.

Provide adequate ventilation

Adequate ventilation is necessary for safe operation of the kerosene
heater. Burning kerosene consumes oxygen and produces carbon dioxide,
sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, carbon monoxide and other gases.
Ventilation must be provided to replace oxygen as well as to remove
gases in order to prevent asphyxiation or respiratory problems. The
manufacturer's recommendations should be followed to provide adequate
oxygen for combustion; in many instances, this may require opening a
window or a door leading to another room. If no specifications are
listed in the manufacturer's literature, one rule of thumb is to
provide 1 square inch of window opening for each 1,000 Btus of the
heater rating. An example -- a 10,000 Btu heater may require opening an
outside window 10 square inches to provide the necessary air intake. In
an energy efficient home, additional air intake may be necessary.

Use only as supplemental heat

The heater should never be used as the only heat source, except in an
emergency situation. Don't operate it while you are asleep because
heater malfunction could cause asphyxiation. Do not leave a heater
unattended.

Keep the heater out of the traffic flow

Place it in areas where there is little chance someone will bump into
it. UL Standard 647 requires that in the tipped over position, the
burner "flame shall not continue to burn longer than 30 seconds." The
standard also requires "that kerosene discharged from the reservoir or
the burner shall not be ignited" as a result of the heater tip-over.
Although equipment must meet a strenuous test before it is "listed" by
nationally recognized testing organizations such as UL, the equipment
could fail or malfunction. So take care to prevent the potential for
heater tip-overs.

Allow heater to cool before refueling

The heater should be allowed to cool for a minimum of 15 minutes before
refueling. The surface temperature of many of the heaters can be as
high as 500 degrees F. Kerosene has a flash point (lowest temperature
at which a liquid gives off enough vapors to form an ignitable mixture)
of approximately 110 degrees F and an ignition temperature of 410
degrees F. If kerosene is spilled on a hot heater, it could ignite and
cause a fire.

Refuel heater and store kerosene outdoors

Always refuel the cool heater outside in a well-ventilated area away
from other ignition sources. Refueling should also be done in an area
where small spills can be cleaned up quickly. Fuel should be stored
outdoors in an approved blue safety can. "Kerosene" should be lettered
on the safety can in a readily visible location. Never store kerosene
in a red container that could easily be mistaken as a gasoline storage
container.

Never overfill heater

When refueling the heater, leave sufficient space for fuel expansion.
Follow manufacturer's refueling directions found in the owner's manual
or on the name plate.

Do not let children operate or refuel the heater

Only an adult familiar with the operating and refueling procedures of
the heater should be allowed to operate or refuel it.

Prevent burns

Warn children of the dangers of the hot surface temperature on the
portable kerosene heater. Remember, the surface temperature of some
heaters may be as high as 500 degrees Fahrenheit.

Develop a pre-fire plan

Every family should take time to develop and practice a pre-fire plan.
In your plan:

Install and maintain a smoke detector system. Install one smoke
detector per living level in accordance with National Fire Protection
Association Standard No. 74, Standard for household fire warning
equipment.
Install and maintain a fire extinguisher. Install an approved
multi-purpose dry chemical fire extinguisher in a visible and easily
accessible location.
Develop an evacuation plan. An evacuation plan should be developed and
practiced by all occupants to ensure safe escape from the building in
the event of a fire. Remember the plan is only good if everyone knows
about it and has practiced it to make sure it works.

dennis
in nca

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:07:55 GMT, Name wrote:
In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store
bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Whenever you burn a hydrocarbon, you'll get H2O and CO2.


OK, that makes sense, as it sounds like the tailpipe on a car.

Thanks.

"Mike Berger" wrote in message
...
Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:
In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store
bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



I think I am going to use the heater and go from there. I think the
dehumidifers I was looking at were around 600 watts.

I'll be venting the garage, as to not die from the oxygen delpletion, carbon
monoxide, etc.

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Berger wrote:
Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:
In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that
a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store
bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.


Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca


I am going to just use the heater for a little while, evaluate and go from
there. Thanks for the advice.

I think the kerosene combines with the oxygen in the air to some ratio, and
that is where it gets some of the water creation during burning. Either
way, I need to see just how much moisture is going to be produce before and
if I decide to get a dehumidifier.

Thanks.

Name wrote:

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Berger wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that

a

kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store

bought)

de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca



I am going to just use the heater for a little while, evaluate and go from
there. Thanks for the advice.

I think the kerosene combines with the oxygen in the air to some ratio, and
that is where it gets some of the water creation during burning. Either
way, I need to see just how much moisture is going to be produce before and
if I decide to get a dehumidifier.

Thanks.



Go ahead, just remember, you were warned. If you open a window or do something
else to introduce oxygen, you will not experience oxygen depletion. That's fine
for normal people, but you have a shop full of ferrous objects. When you burn
any hydrocarbon, the basic reaction is that the byproduct is water vapor. In a
shop, you HAVE to vent the kerosene exhaust completely or your machines will
rust quickly.

You have been given some marginal advice. The guy who dumped the MSDS didn't
realize that your concern isn't only safety for humans, it's also preventing
rust to your machines. Water vapor in say a bedroom is a good thing. Often in
winter the air is very dry and adding some humidity makes it feel warmer. That's
why you see those cast iron kettles on wood stoves, just to add steam to the
air. Yes, it's safe to use a clean well adjusted kerosene heater inside, but IT
WILL RUST YOUR MACHINES.

I would never ever trust a dehumidifier. Not for one millisecond. Trust a chimney.

GWE

According to Dave Hinz :
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:07:55 GMT, Name wrote:
In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Whenever you burn a hydrocarbon, you'll get H2O and CO2.

And, since your machines will be at least as cold as the air
when you start, and the air will heat up more quickly than any metal you
have, this means that most of that moisture will condense on the metal
of the machines -- thus leading to very probable rust.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Whats is the big deal, I have used both propane and kerosene heaters for the
shop from time to time. The propane puts ALOT of water into the air. The
kerosene heater puts almost none, in the winter I could run the dehumidifier
for a month with the kero heater running and NEVER fill the tank. I will say
that the kero heater ONCE running makes far less fumes than the propane
heater I have. ( the propane is 2 years old the kero is about 15 years old
with a wick from way back when) I don't even use the new heater, and to top
it off propane costs more per BTU. You need to be very careful with any
space heater, but if used correctly they are safe.
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Name wrote:

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Berger wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that

a

kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store

bought)

de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca



I am going to just use the heater for a little while, evaluate and go
from
there. Thanks for the advice.

I think the kerosene combines with the oxygen in the air to some ratio,
and
that is where it gets some of the water creation during burning. Either
way, I need to see just how much moisture is going to be produce before
and
if I decide to get a dehumidifier.

Thanks.



Go ahead, just remember, you were warned. If you open a window or do
something else to introduce oxygen, you will not experience oxygen
depletion. That's fine for normal people, but you have a shop full of
ferrous objects. When you burn any hydrocarbon, the basic reaction is that
the byproduct is water vapor. In a shop, you HAVE to vent the kerosene
exhaust completely or your machines will rust quickly.

You have been given some marginal advice. The guy who dumped the MSDS
didn't realize that your concern isn't only safety for humans, it's also
preventing rust to your machines. Water vapor in say a bedroom is a good
thing. Often in winter the air is very dry and adding some humidity makes
it feel warmer. That's why you see those cast iron kettles on wood stoves,
just to add steam to the air. Yes, it's safe to use a clean well adjusted
kerosene heater inside, but IT WILL RUST YOUR MACHINES.

I would never ever trust a dehumidifier. Not for one millisecond. Trust a
chimney.

GWE

To do a proper comparison you'll need some data, such as the heating value
and chemical formulas for the two fuels. Propane is easy (C3H8) but
kerosene is a mixture and its composition probably varies depending on the
grade and source.

The combustion of propane is as follows, assuming 100% conversion:

C3H8 + 5 O2 = 4 H2O +3 CO2

The molecular weight of propane is 44 and water is 18, so you'll get around
1.6 lbs of water generated for each lb of propane burned.

According to this link, kerosene has the approximate formula C8H18:

http://www.core.org.cn/CN_NR/rdonlyr.../09_part2c.pdf

then,

C8H18 + 12.5 O2 = 9 H2O + 8 CO2

or about 1.4 lbs of water per lb of kerosene burned.

Propane has a heating value of 21,500 BTU/lb and kerosene is 18,540 BTU/lb.

On a per million BTU basis, propane will produce 74.1 lbs of water and
kerosene will produce 75.5 lbs of water.

Bottom line is that for all practical puposes, there is no difference in the
amount of water vapor that either produces for the same heating duty. That
assumes no errors on my part so feel free to do your own research g.

Mike

"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
Whats is the big deal, I have used both propane and kerosene heaters for
the shop from time to time. The propane puts ALOT of water into the air.
The kerosene heater puts almost none, in the winter I could run the
dehumidifier for a month with the kero heater running and NEVER fill the
tank. I will say that the kero heater ONCE running makes far less fumes
than the propane heater I have. ( the propane is 2 years old the kero is
about 15 years old with a wick from way back when) I don't even use the
new heater, and to top it off propane costs more per BTU. You need to be
very careful with any space heater, but if used correctly they are safe.
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Name wrote:

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Berger wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that

a

kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store

bought)

de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca



I am going to just use the heater for a little while, evaluate and go
from
there. Thanks for the advice.

I think the kerosene combines with the oxygen in the air to some ratio,
and
that is where it gets some of the water creation during burning. Either
way, I need to see just how much moisture is going to be produce before
and
if I decide to get a dehumidifier.

Thanks.



Go ahead, just remember, you were warned. If you open a window or do
something else to introduce oxygen, you will not experience oxygen
depletion. That's fine for normal people, but you have a shop full of
ferrous objects. When you burn any hydrocarbon, the basic reaction is
that the byproduct is water vapor. In a shop, you HAVE to vent the
kerosene exhaust completely or your machines will rust quickly.

You have been given some marginal advice. The guy who dumped the MSDS
didn't realize that your concern isn't only safety for humans, it's also
preventing rust to your machines. Water vapor in say a bedroom is a good
thing. Often in winter the air is very dry and adding some humidity makes
it feel warmer. That's why you see those cast iron kettles on wood
stoves, just to add steam to the air. Yes, it's safe to use a clean well
adjusted kerosene heater inside, but IT WILL RUST YOUR MACHINES.

I would never ever trust a dehumidifier. Not for one millisecond. Trust a
chimney.

GWE

Speaking of burning hydrocarbons...
Today here in San Diego a huge fire erupted right front of Qualcomm
stadium when a 4000 gallon fuel tanker flipped over.
Burned for about 3 hours. They didn't try to extinguish because the fuel
would have run into the river.
Huge column of black smoke went straight up maybe 2500 feet.

Thats fine but I have used both and have had no moisture problems from
burning kerosene I have seen it from the propane heater I bought.
"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...
To do a proper comparison you'll need some data, such as the heating value
and chemical formulas for the two fuels. Propane is easy (C3H8) but
kerosene is a mixture and its composition probably varies depending on the
grade and source.

The combustion of propane is as follows, assuming 100% conversion:

C3H8 + 5 O2 = 4 H2O +3 CO2

The molecular weight of propane is 44 and water is 18, so you'll get
around 1.6 lbs of water generated for each lb of propane burned.

According to this link, kerosene has the approximate formula C8H18:

http://www.core.org.cn/CN_NR/rdonlyr.../09_part2c.pdf

then,

C8H18 + 12.5 O2 = 9 H2O + 8 CO2

or about 1.4 lbs of water per lb of kerosene burned.

Propane has a heating value of 21,500 BTU/lb and kerosene is 18,540
BTU/lb.

On a per million BTU basis, propane will produce 74.1 lbs of water and
kerosene will produce 75.5 lbs of water.

Bottom line is that for all practical puposes, there is no difference in
the amount of water vapor that either produces for the same heating duty.
That assumes no errors on my part so feel free to do your own research
g.

Mike

"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
Whats is the big deal, I have used both propane and kerosene heaters for
the shop from time to time. The propane puts ALOT of water into the air.
The kerosene heater puts almost none, in the winter I could run the
dehumidifier for a month with the kero heater running and NEVER fill the
tank. I will say that the kero heater ONCE running makes far less fumes
than the propane heater I have. ( the propane is 2 years old the kero is
about 15 years old with a wick from way back when) I don't even use the
new heater, and to top it off propane costs more per BTU. You need to be
very careful with any space heater, but if used correctly they are safe.
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Name wrote:

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Berger wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned
that

a

kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How
much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store

bought)

de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca



I am going to just use the heater for a little while, evaluate and go
from
there. Thanks for the advice.

I think the kerosene combines with the oxygen in the air to some ratio,
and
that is where it gets some of the water creation during burning.
Either
way, I need to see just how much moisture is going to be produce before
and
if I decide to get a dehumidifier.

Thanks.



Go ahead, just remember, you were warned. If you open a window or do
something else to introduce oxygen, you will not experience oxygen
depletion. That's fine for normal people, but you have a shop full of
ferrous objects. When you burn any hydrocarbon, the basic reaction is
that the byproduct is water vapor. In a shop, you HAVE to vent the
kerosene exhaust completely or your machines will rust quickly.

You have been given some marginal advice. The guy who dumped the MSDS
didn't realize that your concern isn't only safety for humans, it's also
preventing rust to your machines. Water vapor in say a bedroom is a good
thing. Often in winter the air is very dry and adding some humidity
makes it feel warmer. That's why you see those cast iron kettles on wood
stoves, just to add steam to the air. Yes, it's safe to use a clean well
adjusted kerosene heater inside, but IT WILL RUST YOUR MACHINES.

I would never ever trust a dehumidifier. Not for one millisecond. Trust
a chimney.

GWE

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:22:33 -0600, Mike Berger
wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Such drama. Kero heaters all come with instructions for how many
square inches of vent opening should be used.

The humidity really can be a problem, though. I ran a kero torpedo
for a few years in my garage.

A vented system is much better in a cold climate, and it'll cost
less than the electricity to run a dehumidifier for a couple of
seasons.

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Name wrote:

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Berger wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that

a

kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store

bought)

de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca



I am going to just use the heater for a little while, evaluate and go
from
there. Thanks for the advice.

I think the kerosene combines with the oxygen in the air to some ratio,
and
that is where it gets some of the water creation during burning. Either
way, I need to see just how much moisture is going to be produce before
and
if I decide to get a dehumidifier.

Thanks.



Go ahead, just remember, you were warned. If you open a window or do
something
else to introduce oxygen, you will not experience oxygen depletion. That's
fine
for normal people, but you have a shop full of ferrous objects. When you
burn
any hydrocarbon, the basic reaction is that the byproduct is water vapor.
In a
shop, you HAVE to vent the kerosene exhaust completely or your machines
will
rust quickly.

You have been given some marginal advice. The guy who dumped the MSDS
didn't
realize that your concern isn't only safety for humans, it's also
preventing
rust to your machines. Water vapor in say a bedroom is a good thing. Often
in
winter the air is very dry and adding some humidity makes it feel warmer.
That's
why you see those cast iron kettles on wood stoves, just to add steam to
the
air. Yes, it's safe to use a clean well adjusted kerosene heater inside,
but IT
WILL RUST YOUR MACHINES.

I would never ever trust a dehumidifier. Not for one millisecond. Trust a
chimney.

GWE

Actually, the largest machine currently in my garage is a 6" bench grinder.
I usually keep it in a drawer when I am not using it.

I bought a carbon monoxide detector with a level gauge and a
thermometer/hygrometer (humidity level). I am going to check various
situations and see what works best.

Thank you for the suggestions.

"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
Whats is the big deal, I have used both propane and kerosene heaters for
the
shop from time to time. The propane puts ALOT of water into the air. The
kerosene heater puts almost none, in the winter I could run the
dehumidifier
for a month with the kero heater running and NEVER fill the tank. I will
say
that the kero heater ONCE running makes far less fumes than the propane
heater I have. ( the propane is 2 years old the kero is about 15 years old
with a wick from way back when) I don't even use the new heater, and to
top
it off propane costs more per BTU. You need to be very careful with any
space heater, but if used correctly they are safe.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.





"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Name wrote:

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Berger wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned
that

a

kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How
much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store

bought)

de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca



I am going to just use the heater for a little while, evaluate and go
from
there. Thanks for the advice.

I think the kerosene combines with the oxygen in the air to some ratio,
and
that is where it gets some of the water creation during burning.
Either
way, I need to see just how much moisture is going to be produce before
and
if I decide to get a dehumidifier.

Thanks.



Go ahead, just remember, you were warned. If you open a window or do
something else to introduce oxygen, you will not experience oxygen
depletion. That's fine for normal people, but you have a shop full of
ferrous objects. When you burn any hydrocarbon, the basic reaction is
that
the byproduct is water vapor. In a shop, you HAVE to vent the kerosene
exhaust completely or your machines will rust quickly.

You have been given some marginal advice. The guy who dumped the MSDS
didn't realize that your concern isn't only safety for humans, it's also
preventing rust to your machines. Water vapor in say a bedroom is a good
thing. Often in winter the air is very dry and adding some humidity
makes
it feel warmer. That's why you see those cast iron kettles on wood
stoves,
just to add steam to the air. Yes, it's safe to use a clean well
adjusted
kerosene heater inside, but IT WILL RUST YOUR MACHINES.

I would never ever trust a dehumidifier. Not for one millisecond. Trust
a
chimney.

GWE

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...
To do a proper comparison you'll need some data, such as the heating value
and chemical formulas for the two fuels. Propane is easy (C3H8) but
kerosene is a mixture and its composition probably varies depending on the
grade and source.

The combustion of propane is as follows, assuming 100% conversion:

C3H8 + 5 O2 = 4 H2O +3 CO2

The molecular weight of propane is 44 and water is 18, so you'll get
around
1.6 lbs of water generated for each lb of propane burned.

According to this link, kerosene has the approximate formula C8H18:


http://www.core.org.cn/CN_NR/rdonlyr.../09_part2c.pdf

then,

C8H18 + 12.5 O2 = 9 H2O + 8 CO2

or about 1.4 lbs of water per lb of kerosene burned.

Propane has a heating value of 21,500 BTU/lb and kerosene is 18,540
BTU/lb.

On a per million BTU basis, propane will produce 74.1 lbs of water and
kerosene will produce 75.5 lbs of water.

Bottom line is that for all practical puposes, there is no difference in
the
amount of water vapor that either produces for the same heating duty.
That
assumes no errors on my part so feel free to do your own research g.

Mike

WOW!! Thank you for passing that along!






"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
Whats is the big deal, I have used both propane and kerosene heaters for
the shop from time to time. The propane puts ALOT of water into the air.
The kerosene heater puts almost none, in the winter I could run the
dehumidifier for a month with the kero heater running and NEVER fill the
tank. I will say that the kero heater ONCE running makes far less fumes
than the propane heater I have. ( the propane is 2 years old the kero is
about 15 years old with a wick from way back when) I don't even use the
new heater, and to top it off propane costs more per BTU. You need to be
very careful with any space heater, but if used correctly they are safe.
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Name wrote:

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Berger wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned
that

a

kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How
much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store

bought)

de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and
maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand
and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca



I am going to just use the heater for a little while, evaluate and go
from
there. Thanks for the advice.

I think the kerosene combines with the oxygen in the air to some
ratio,
and
that is where it gets some of the water creation during burning.
Either
way, I need to see just how much moisture is going to be produce
before
and
if I decide to get a dehumidifier.

Thanks.



Go ahead, just remember, you were warned. If you open a window or do
something else to introduce oxygen, you will not experience oxygen
depletion. That's fine for normal people, but you have a shop full of
ferrous objects. When you burn any hydrocarbon, the basic reaction is
that the byproduct is water vapor. In a shop, you HAVE to vent the
kerosene exhaust completely or your machines will rust quickly.

You have been given some marginal advice. The guy who dumped the MSDS
didn't realize that your concern isn't only safety for humans, it's
also
preventing rust to your machines. Water vapor in say a bedroom is a
good
thing. Often in winter the air is very dry and adding some humidity
makes
it feel warmer. That's why you see those cast iron kettles on wood
stoves, just to add steam to the air. Yes, it's safe to use a clean
well
adjusted kerosene heater inside, but IT WILL RUST YOUR MACHINES.

I would never ever trust a dehumidifier. Not for one millisecond. Trust
a
chimney.

GWE

"Ignoramus8325" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:13:08 GMT, Name wrote:

"Mike Berger" wrote in message
...
Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:
In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned
that a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How
much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store
bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



I think I am going to use the heater and go from there. I think the
dehumidifers I was looking at were around 600 watts.

I'll be venting the garage, as to not die from the oxygen delpletion,
carbon
monoxide, etc.



Make sure that you can return this heater, and actually try it within
the return period. They are worthless and unusable. By the time they
warm up the area, they use up too much oxygen and produce too much
pollutants. Ventilating the area does not help much, as that defeats
the purpose of heating. It is impossible to work with so much crap in
the air and less oxygen.

I had to return mine to Home Depot, I am glad that they took it
back. It would give me bad headaches.

I tried one last year when I was working on my Onan DJE generator.

If you think about moisture, then you would see that cold machines
would attract condensation. The fact that dehumidifier would remove
some moisture is not very consoling, since condensation would still
remain on the machines for a while.

i


Thank you for sharing your experiences.

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:32:15 GMT, Ignoramus8325
wrote:


Make sure that you can return this heater, and actually try it within
the return period. They are worthless and unusable. By the time they
warm up the area, they use up too much oxygen and produce too much
pollutants. Ventilating the area does not help much, as that defeats
the purpose of heating. It is impossible to work with so much crap in
the air and less oxygen.

Horsefeathers. The U.S. Army used salamanders and Herman Nelson
heaters in MASH hospitals and 3d echelon maintenance tents.

I had to return mine to Home Depot, I am glad that they took it
back. It would give me bad headaches.

They can do that if they're not running right.

I tried one last year when I was working on my Onan DJE generator.

If you think about moisture, then you would see that cold machines
would attract condensation. The fact that dehumidifier would remove
some moisture is not very consoling, since condensation would still
remain on the machines for a while.

Ya keep the machines covered until they're above the dewpoint. Duh!
Oil is also useful. Beyond that, the OP made no mention of having
machine tools in the two-stall garage.

Ignoramus8325 wrote:

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:13:08 GMT, Name wrote:

"Mike Berger" wrote in message
...
Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:
In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that
a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store
bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



I think I am going to use the heater and go from there. I think the
dehumidifers I was looking at were around 600 watts.

I'll be venting the garage, as to not die from the oxygen delpletion,
carbon monoxide, etc.



Make sure that you can return this heater, and actually try it within
the return period. They are worthless and unusable. By the time they
warm up the area, they use up too much oxygen and produce too much
pollutants. Ventilating the area does not help much, as that defeats
the purpose of heating. It is impossible to work with so much crap in
the air and less oxygen.

Personally I've never found this to be the case.

Most of the problems with kerosene heaters are in modern houses in which
careful attention has been paid to eliminating infiltration losses so as to
reduce heating costs. With no outside air to speak of coming in combustion
products can build to a significant level. This is not usually a problem
in a workshop.

It is quite possible to provide adequate ventilation without "defeating the
purpose"--you don't have to have all the windows and doors open, just a
couple cracked a little so you have some crossflow.

I had to return mine to Home Depot, I am glad that they took it
back. It would give me bad headaches.

I tried one last year when I was working on my Onan DJE generator.

If you think about moisture, then you would see that cold machines
would attract condensation. The fact that dehumidifier would remove
some moisture is not very consoling, since condensation would still
remain on the machines for a while.

i

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:07:55 GMT, "Name" wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.

I use both a kero-torpedo heater and a propane space
heater to boost the woodstove that is the primiary source
of heat in my shop. Generally in very cold temps and just
to get everything warmed up till the woodstove is fully
fired.

Haven't seen any rust on my tools, I suspect that
the woodstove drys things out. I don't even open a window
when running either. I use high grade kero, up from $3 a gal
last year to almost $5 this year.

DE

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:32:15 GMT, Ignoramus8325
wrote:


Make sure that you can return this heater, and actually try it within
the return period. They are worthless and unusable. By the time they
warm up the area, they use up too much oxygen and produce too much
pollutants. Ventilating the area does not help much, as that defeats
the purpose of heating. It is impossible to work with so much crap in
the air and less oxygen.

Horsefeathers. The U.S. Army used salamanders and Herman Nelson
heaters in MASH hospitals and 3d echelon maintenance tents.

I had to return mine to Home Depot, I am glad that they took it
back. It would give me bad headaches.

They can do that if they're not running right.

I tried one last year when I was working on my Onan DJE generator.

If you think about moisture, then you would see that cold machines
would attract condensation. The fact that dehumidifier would remove
some moisture is not very consoling, since condensation would still
remain on the machines for a while.

Ya keep the machines covered until they're above the dewpoint. Duh!
Oil is also useful. Beyond that, the OP made no mention of having
machine tools in the two-stall garage.

Well, this IS rcm!
--
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:22:33 -0600, Mike Berger
wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Such drama. Kero heaters all come with instructions for how many
square inches of vent opening should be used.

The humidity really can be a problem, though. I ran a kero torpedo
for a few years in my garage.

A vented system is much better in a cold climate, and it'll cost
less than the electricity to run a dehumidifier for a couple of
seasons.

That's an interesting assertion--but you'd have to run the numbers to bear
it out.
Where's Mike Henry when you need him?

Last year I discovered "ventless" natural gas radiant heaters. Thought I had
died and gone to Thermodynamic Heaven!
'Til I started to use them....

First, I can only imagine what an unvented *kerosene* heater does to air
quality--on "high", my ventless natural gas heater *absolutely affects* air
quality--and I proly have more drafts in my shop than a fireplace!
Second, the moisture can indeed be quite a problem--my manual lists the
water output as a substantial number of *ounces* of water per 1,000
BTU's--quite in keeping w/ Mike's calcs.

OTOH, on very dry days, this is not a bad thing, to remove static
electricity, esp. around 'pyooters, CNC, etc. Esp. if yer prone to nose
bleeds, dry skin, etc.

I too have a dehumidifier. I recommend them highly, and have mounted mine
*above* my gas heater, to hopefully catch the vapor before it fully
diffuses..

My strategy:

Radiant heaters I think are preferable to "regular"
Natural gas burns cleaner than kero, *almost by definition*.
I put mine on High upon opening shop, then keep it on low, if on at all.
Altho the comments on machine-condensation give me pause about even this....

Hopefully the dehumidifier helps here, altho I must say that on dry days,
even w/ the gas heater going, it does not turn on!!

I use 220 V baseboard electric heating, but run on 120V--"softer", more
uniform heat. You can switch it to 220, for 4x the heat--and 4x the electric
bill!!
Dehumidifiers (really just a window A/C brought inside!) put out their full
wattage rating as heat! Factor that in!
Electric heat, altho more expensive per kw-hr, can be more economical
because of it's ability to provide very localized heat--ultimate zoning, if
you will.

Your lighting load is heat! Use more lights! Bring the wife's plants inside
yer shop.
In the summertime, I machine by flashlight...
Use fans mounted up high to bring down the warmer air--can really make a
difference, esp. w/ high ceilings. Ceiling fans are nice, but any fan will
do.
*Get rid of drafts.*
I agree w/ those who rec. venting gas/kero heaters, if using them full time,
even tho it physically pains me to envision all that heat going up the
proverbial chimney. You pay, one way or the other.

Thermal underwear? I think they make battery-operated underwear--for sure
they make battery operated socks and gloves. The socks are to die
for--really great, fwih.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:07:55 GMT, "Name" wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned that a
kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store bought)
de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Depends on th' amount of fuel burned per hr and th' rate at which your
dehumidifier can collect water. I'd read that a rough guestimate is
that you can get one gallon of water per gallon of fuel burned.

I'm not sure if that's correct, but I do know my shop (PNW) was
dripping wet after 2-3 hours of being heated by a propane jet engine
style heater. Likewise with a kerosene heater I tried after that. I
never tried using a dehumidifier in conjunction with th' heaters.

I'm convinced that if one chooses to use propane, kerosene or oil
burning heat sources, they should be direct vented (exhaust) outside.

Snarl

Well, I don't claim to be a combustion engineer but the approach to the
"problem" and numbers used seem reasonable to me. What do you suppose
happens to all that hydrogen in your kerosene?

Mike

"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
Thats fine but I have used both and have had no moisture problems from
burning kerosene I have seen it from the propane heater I bought.
"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...
To do a proper comparison you'll need some data, such as the heating
value and chemical formulas for the two fuels. Propane is easy (C3H8)
but kerosene is a mixture and its composition probably varies depending
on the grade and source.

The combustion of propane is as follows, assuming 100% conversion:

C3H8 + 5 O2 = 4 H2O +3 CO2

The molecular weight of propane is 44 and water is 18, so you'll get
around 1.6 lbs of water generated for each lb of propane burned.

According to this link, kerosene has the approximate formula C8H18:

http://www.core.org.cn/CN_NR/rdonlyr.../09_part2c.pdf

then,

C8H18 + 12.5 O2 = 9 H2O + 8 CO2

or about 1.4 lbs of water per lb of kerosene burned.

Propane has a heating value of 21,500 BTU/lb and kerosene is 18,540
BTU/lb.

On a per million BTU basis, propane will produce 74.1 lbs of water and
kerosene will produce 75.5 lbs of water.

Bottom line is that for all practical puposes, there is no difference in
the amount of water vapor that either produces for the same heating duty.
That assumes no errors on my part so feel free to do your own research
g.

Mike

"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
Whats is the big deal, I have used both propane and kerosene heaters for
the shop from time to time. The propane puts ALOT of water into the air.
The kerosene heater puts almost none, in the winter I could run the
dehumidifier for a month with the kero heater running and NEVER fill the
tank. I will say that the kero heater ONCE running makes far less fumes
than the propane heater I have. ( the propane is 2 years old the kero is
about 15 years old with a wick from way back when) I don't even use the
new heater, and to top it off propane costs more per BTU. You need to be
very careful with any space heater, but if used correctly they are safe.
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Name wrote:

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Berger wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned
that

a

kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How
much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store

bought)

de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and
maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand
and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca



I am going to just use the heater for a little while, evaluate and go
from
there. Thanks for the advice.

I think the kerosene combines with the oxygen in the air to some
ratio, and
that is where it gets some of the water creation during burning.
Either
way, I need to see just how much moisture is going to be produce
before and
if I decide to get a dehumidifier.

Thanks.



Go ahead, just remember, you were warned. If you open a window or do
something else to introduce oxygen, you will not experience oxygen
depletion. That's fine for normal people, but you have a shop full of
ferrous objects. When you burn any hydrocarbon, the basic reaction is
that the byproduct is water vapor. In a shop, you HAVE to vent the
kerosene exhaust completely or your machines will rust quickly.

You have been given some marginal advice. The guy who dumped the MSDS
didn't realize that your concern isn't only safety for humans, it's
also preventing rust to your machines. Water vapor in say a bedroom is
a good thing. Often in winter the air is very dry and adding some
humidity makes it feel warmer. That's why you see those cast iron
kettles on wood stoves, just to add steam to the air. Yes, it's safe to
use a clean well adjusted kerosene heater inside, but IT WILL RUST YOUR
MACHINES.

I would never ever trust a dehumidifier. Not for one millisecond. Trust
a chimney.

GWE

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 14:13:08 GMT, Ignoramus4775
wrote:



Ya keep the machines covered until they're above the dewpoint.
Duh!

how convenient...

May not be convenient, but it's necessary in space heated with kero or
popane without venting. It works.

Per Snarl"

Depends on th' amount of fuel burned per hr and th' rate at which your
dehumidifier can collect water. I'd read that a rough guestimate is
that you can get one gallon of water per gallon of fuel burned.

Makes sense. But look at this:

At a site examining living in a sealed environment, they stated the
average person exhales and perspires approx. 4 1/2 gallons of water per
day. If you spend long hours in your shop or have others working with
you do you notice an increase in rust??? In the average (if it's not
well sealed, like mine) shop I doubt you can tell the difference in an
extra gallon or two of moisture.

dennis
in nca

At a site examining living in a sealed environment, they stated the
average person exhales and perspires approx. 4 1/2 gallons of water per
day.

I don't think so. That would mean that you have to drive 4.5 gallons
per day. Even in the desert, I only drink 1 gallon per day at the
very most. I believe the 4.5, but the units have got to be wrong.

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:34:18 GMT, Ignoramus17480
wrote:

On 9 Dec 2005 21:04:10 GMT, Chuck Sherwood wrote:
At a site examining living in a sealed environment, they stated the
average person exhales and perspires approx. 4 1/2 gallons of water per
day.

I don't think so. That would mean that you have to drive 4.5 gallons

I wonder what you were thinking when you mistyped "drink" as
"drive".

i
who does not drink and drive
That's too bad. Just think of the fun. Drive out to the desert, open
the beers, and stomp on the gas. Only steer enough to prevent
rollover. Go fast enough that the tires stay out of the dips. At the
right time of the year you get to see how many jack rabbits you can
mow down. Don't slowdown unless ya gotta pee. If'n ya do it right you
can pee at the same time as you drive. Don't spill the beer. Don't
drive your own car either.
ERS

per day. Even in the desert, I only drink 1 gallon per day at the
very most. I believe the 4.5, but the units have got to be wrong.

Why not just heat the shop with the car parked in the next stall? run a
hose for exhaust out some port, start 'er up, let idle turn on the
heater open the car windows.
It'l be so warm in there you'll have machine naked

On 9 Dec 2005 11:25:15 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

Per Snarl"

Depends on th' amount of fuel burned per hr and th' rate at which your
dehumidifier can collect water. I'd read that a rough guestimate is
that you can get one gallon of water per gallon of fuel burned.

Makes sense. But look at this:

At a site examining living in a sealed environment, they stated the
average person exhales and perspires approx. 4 1/2 gallons of water per
day.

Might want to recheck that number Dennis, that's 576 oz's of fluid
intake per day. Heh, that's 48 (two cases) 12oz curls in 24 hours, or
24 oz's per hour! Must've been for th' collective group?

If you spend long hours in your shop or have others working with
you do you notice an increase in rust???

Depends on how many girls I have in m' tent g. Actually, we do camp
quite a bit, well did anyway, and with my wife n' I there'd always be
some moisture inside. More or less depending on dew point. Never
anything close to a gallon tho.

In the average (if it's not
well sealed, like mine) shop I doubt you can tell the difference in an
extra gallon or two of moisture.

Well, I sure could. After only three hours of that non-vented,
propane heater, my shop was literally dripping wet. No girls inside
either.

Snarl

Snarl (and others) rightfully correct Dennis:

Might want to recheck that number Dennis, that's 576 oz's of fluid
intake per day. Heh, that's 48 (two cases) 12oz curls in 24 hours, or
24 oz's per hour! Must've been for th' collective group?

I think I had my collective head up my collective butt.

If you go to http://tinyurl.com/7b6nu and go down to: "Surviving in a
closed environment: Life beyond Earth" and go down the page to the
chart you'll see where I got the numbers I mismanipulated.

The numbers there for respiration and prespiration a 2.28 kg per
person per day. The correct number is just over 5 POUNDS of water per
day so make that around 5 PINTS of water per day. In weather that's
making you sweat it's probably a lot more than that.

Environment is going to be the controling factor here. It doesn't take
much imagination to intuit blowing warm moist air on a cold machine
will produce condensation. So then the questions a how cold a
machine; how wet and warm the air. Looks like your mileage may vary.

As far as the noxious effect: Does anyone have a canary I could
borrow?

dennis
in nca

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:10:35 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .


A vented system is much better in a cold climate, and it'll cost
less than the electricity to run a dehumidifier for a couple of
seasons.

That's an interesting assertion--but you'd have to run the numbers to bear
it out.
Where's Mike Henry when you need him?

I did run the numbers using $/KWH rate effective at the time -- about
5 sents then, it's more now. A dehumidifier can spin the meter
briskly. A vented natural gas unit heater has worked well for
me. Additional appeal: it's overhead, takes zero floor space. YMMV.

"Name" wrote in message
news:tgRlf.610017$_o.304484@attbi_s71...

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Name wrote:

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Berger wrote:

Maybe, but then you'll be using a lot more energy overall to heat
the place, and stand the chance of dying from the combustion fumes
and lack of oxygen as well.

Name wrote:

In the "how to heat a two stall garage" thread, someone mentioned
that

a

kerosene heater would cause a lot of moisture in the garage. How
much
moisture will there be? Could I just use a low-cost (normal store

bought)

de-humidifier to make it normal humidity?

Thanks.



Like any heating device if a kerosene heater is operated and
maintained
properly there is no problem using it inside for long periods of time.
A dehumidifier would certainly add cost but, depending on the brand
and
etc., could be effective.

Just guessing but I imagine the amount of water to be removed won't be
more than the amount of kerosene supplied (recombining the hydrogen in
the kerosene with oxygen??). Maybe someone who understands the
chemistry involved can tell us for sure.

dennis
in nca



I am going to just use the heater for a little while, evaluate and go
from
there. Thanks for the advice.

I think the kerosene combines with the oxygen in the air to some
ratio,
and
that is where it gets some of the water creation during burning.
Either
way, I need to see just how much moisture is going to be produce
before
and
if I decide to get a dehumidifier.

Thanks.



Go ahead, just remember, you were warned. If you open a window or do
something
else to introduce oxygen, you will not experience oxygen depletion.
That's
fine
for normal people, but you have a shop full of ferrous objects. When you
burn
any hydrocarbon, the basic reaction is that the byproduct is water
vapor.
In a
shop, you HAVE to vent the kerosene exhaust completely or your machines
will
rust quickly.

You have been given some marginal advice. The guy who dumped the MSDS
didn't
realize that your concern isn't only safety for humans, it's also
preventing
rust to your machines. Water vapor in say a bedroom is a good thing.
Often
in
winter the air is very dry and adding some humidity makes it feel
warmer.
That's
why you see those cast iron kettles on wood stoves, just to add steam to
the
air. Yes, it's safe to use a clean well adjusted kerosene heater inside,
but IT
WILL RUST YOUR MACHINES.

I would never ever trust a dehumidifier. Not for one millisecond. Trust
a
chimney.

GWE

Actually, the largest machine currently in my garage is a 6" bench
grinder.
I usually keep it in a drawer when I am not using it.

I bought a carbon monoxide detector with a level gauge and a
thermometer/hygrometer (humidity level). I am going to check various
situations and see what works best.

Thank you for the suggestions.


Here is a follow up. I found a combination I am happy with. Keeping the
attic's fold - up ladder/door open allows the garage to get "warm enough"
(60 degrees) with apparently enough ventialtion. It was 30 degrees outside.
It's only a little stinky and a lot warmer. Humidity is greater, but maybe
by 10% or so. I think the cold, dry air form outside rushing in causes
this. When the heater is run when it is rainging outside, humidity from
outside coming in is far worse than what is caused by the heater. The CO
detector has a "highest level recorded" memory setting. It is still on
zero.

Just for testing purposes, I ran the heater with no ventialation for a while
and it gave me a headache. When I ran it with the attic door open, I got no
headache.

I suggest getting a hygrometer if moisture is a concern.

Thanks.

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:04:07 -0800, (daniel
peterman) wrote:

Why not just heat the shop with the car parked in the next stall? run a
hose for exhaust out some port, start 'er up, let idle turn on the
heater open the car windows.
It'l be so warm in there you'll have machine naked


Not a bad thought, probabally quiter that the space heaters.
I heard that a v8 produces enough excess heat for an days requirement
of heat for an average sized house in an hour of operation.

Naked machining---now thats a novel concept. Except when I
have to go out for more wood esp like last week when the high temp was
-10F
Or when the lathe is throwing off little blue swarf...
Seriously the space heaters jus speed up things..

DE

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According to Name :

[ ... ]

this. When the heater is run when it is rainging outside, humidity from
outside coming in is far worse than what is caused by the heater. The CO
detector has a "highest level recorded" memory setting. It is still on
zero.

Just for testing purposes, I ran the heater with no ventialation for a while
and it gave me a headache. When I ran it with the attic door open, I got no
headache.

That headache suggests to me that the CO detector is not working
properly -- assuming that it still reads zero after the test with no
ventilation.

You probably should test that detector before depending on it.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
vers.com...
According to Name :

[ ... ]

this. When the heater is run when it is rainging outside, humidity from
outside coming in is far worse than what is caused by the heater. The
CO
detector has a "highest level recorded" memory setting. It is still on
zero.

Just for testing purposes, I ran the heater with no ventialation for a
while
and it gave me a headache. When I ran it with the attic door open, I
got no
headache.

That headache suggests to me that the CO detector is not working
properly -- assuming that it still reads zero after the test with no
ventilation.

You probably should test that detector before depending on it.

Good Luck,
DoN.

I think I will set it near the heater and try again.

Thanks.

According to Name :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

[ ... ]

That headache suggests to me that the CO detector is not working
properly -- assuming that it still reads zero after the test with no
ventilation.

You probably should test that detector before depending on it.

[ ... ]

I think I will set it near the heater and try again.

Check the manual. Some of them are deactivated by being too
near some burning objects. They should list the proper way to test your
unit.

Good luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
ervers.com...
According to Name :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

[ ... ]

That headache suggests to me that the CO detector is not working
properly -- assuming that it still reads zero after the test with no
ventilation.

You probably should test that detector before depending on it.

[ ... ]

I think I will set it near the heater and try again.

Check the manual. Some of them are deactivated by being too
near some burning objects. They should list the proper way to test your
unit.

Good luck,
DoN.

OK, I will check the manual.

Thanks.