"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news6_gf.593982$xm3.67367@attbi_s21...

Lots and lots more drugs, including the crack cocaine
epidemic starting in the late 80s.

Really? Lots more drugs than in the 60's?

Lots more drug CRIMES, as more and more thing were classified as crimes, and
more and more crimes were treated as "serious," not excluding FEDERAL
pressure
on local agencies with not-so-subtle threats behind them.

Watch the Johnny Cash movie, then get back to us about the effectiveness and
desire of regulating persoal behavior.

Dan


--


"History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the
Party is always right."

"... by far the more important reason for the readjustment of the past is
the need to safeguard the infallibility of the Party. It is not merely that
speeches, statistics and records of every kind must be constantly brought up
to date in order to show that the predictions of the Party were in all cases
right. It is also that no change of doctrine or in political alignment can
ever be admitted. For to change one's mind, or even one's policy, is a
confession of weakness."

"It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words."

- George Orwell, "1984"

"The Americans will always do the right thing, after they've exhausted all
the alternatives."

-Winston Churchill

"Throughout history, tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that
murder is justified to serve their grand vision. And they end up alienating
decent people across the globe."

- George W. Bush, introspective

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

The third incident was just an exchange of words, when I walked into my
sophomore year of electricity class. I was known for my big mouth
(gee---what a surprise) and walked into the class shouting something,
likely
not worth hearing, which was usually the case. The teacher immediately
addressed me---politely but firmly informing me that my behavior was not
acceptable. From that day forward I respected him---and went on to have
him for a class all three years of high school, which, for us, began in
10th
grade, not 9th.

The verbal 'slap' then was just as effective as the physical one for
you then - that teacher did what the others did, but without having
to lay a finger on you. He could do it to *any* of the students in
the class at any time without having to run through the class doling
out blows.

Certainly you will say that the verbal rebuke meant somthing to you
because you respected him. This is true, but consider that by this
time if a student does *not* respect a teacher, will he do so after
being struck by them?

Knowing my attitude, yeah, it likely took the slap. I'm quite sure I had
already tested the teacher well enough. I had probably pushed him beyond
reasonable limits with other matters. Frankly, I don't recall what
precipitated the slap, I only know that I deserved it, and sure as hell
didn't want another, not in front of my peers, especially. I think my
point is that you can't use the same tactics with even results on all
children. Some respond well to a few kind words, others perceive the kind
words as a weakness of sorts, so they simply escalate their behavior. It
takes something more than the simple word to discourage them. The key to a
successful resolution is discovering what it takes. In my case, with no
doubt, a public slap was more than adequate. So was the paddle. I can
still feel that damned thing, and it's been more than 50 years.

One thing is sure. My father instilled in me a concept of right and
wrong, which is now very strong.

And hence you were susceptible to the verbal disciplining that the
electronics shop teacher applied. There was probably no reason
for the others to resort to corporal punishment - they were simply
either 'having a bad day' or were otherwise unskilled at keeping
order. A good teacher can tell when a kid can be brought into line
with a talking to, or not. You could, those other teachers were
not skilled enough to realize it.

The teacher made other points clear. He also told the class that if they
chose to sleep through his class every day, he wouldn't give them a failing
grade (although it would be a bad one--D-). He also said that it would be
hard to achieve an *A* ---that the student would have to work hard for one.
In my mind, he was a fair minded person, and I had a burning desire to be on
his good side, for he was also the stage craft teacher, and I was on the
stage crew, where I had a keen interest. Where else could a young kid get
his hands on a large amplifier? My interest in music and sound had already
been formed. I had ulterior motives, so in his case it took very little
for me to respond. I guess it's fair to say my purpose was self serving.


By the way, you sound like you're doing a great job with your daughter,
Jim.

I'm honestly not sure if it's anything we're doing. I think she
just turned out that way by accident. But thank you.

Could be by accident, but I can't help but think that it's no different from
the things I learned from my father, which manifested themselves later in
life. I was a nasty little ******* as a kid (and a few think I still am),
defiant, hard headed, somewhat sticky fingered, didn't comply with
rules-----but I grew up. Your daughter has learned things from you by
observing, consciously or otherwise. I can't help but think that you and
your wife have provided good examples. I think the luck of the draw comes
from the choices kids make. Many have been shown the proper way in life,
but make poor choices. My opinion is it takes maturity for some kids to
make better choices. It was certainly that way for me.


Also the number two string class cut-up often would take the
hint right after this happened....

Public schools cannot 'dis-invite' any students so the problem
kids stay in place.

From what I've learned, at least here in Western Washington, they now have
classes where problem kids are separated from the others and combined in one
class. As you said, they can't be denied their education, although many of
them do their best to not get one.

There's a local concrete contractor that has become an acquaintance (he
poured and finished the floor in my shop). He has a college education, but
chose to work with his hands. His partner in life (a woman---and a damned
good one) is in education, and teaches just such a class. It's been
interesting hearing her stories.

Harold

In article ,
says...

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:YoGgf.350854$084.302303@attbi_s22...
snip----

Good parenting is lots of hard work.

Yep! It is. And the parents should be consistent, and have a back bone.

Often otherwise
loving parents give up when they've had a hard day and they have to get up
from the couch once again to discipline junior for the 5th time that
evening.


5th time because they haven't taught the kid any manners, and the kid hasn't
ever had to pay a price. Interestingly, the day comes when he/she will.
Society, in general, has little tolerance for such people. Imagine the
rude awakening when a kid pulls the usual BS as a young adult and loses a
good job because the boss doesn't have to put up with it.


On the other hand, there might *never* be that "rude
awakening." There are plenty of adults (including
middle-aged and over) going around with a certain
constant bewildered expression on their face. Totally
and chronically confused as to just "WHY" all us mean
nasty people refuse to give the Entitlement Freak
whatever s/he wants. And just "WHY" we refuse to
tolerate his/her obnoxious behaviour.

The Entitlement Freaks are each On A Mission to prove
that they are indeed, the centre of the universe, and
that everybody else "owes" them.

No clue at eighteen, no clue at thirty, no clue at
forty... No clue *ever*.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

The Entitlement Freaks are each On A Mission to prove
that they are indeed, the centre of the universe, and
that everybody else "owes" them.


How many mother-in-laws does it take to screw in a light bulb?






Just one, she holds the bulb and waits for the world to revolve around her.

"Antipodean Bucket Farmer" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:YoGgf.350854$084.302303@attbi_s22...
snip----

Good parenting is lots of hard work.

Yep! It is. And the parents should be consistent, and have a back
bone.

Often otherwise
loving parents give up when they've had a hard day and they have to
get up
from the couch once again to discipline junior for the 5th time that
evening.


5th time because they haven't taught the kid any manners, and the kid
hasn't
ever had to pay a price. Interestingly, the day comes when he/she
will.
Society, in general, has little tolerance for such people. Imagine the
rude awakening when a kid pulls the usual BS as a young adult and loses
a
good job because the boss doesn't have to put up with it.


On the other hand, there might *never* be that "rude
awakening." There are plenty of adults (including
middle-aged and over) going around with a certain
constant bewildered expression on their face. Totally
and chronically confused as to just "WHY" all us mean
nasty people refuse to give the Entitlement Freak
whatever s/he wants. And just "WHY" we refuse to
tolerate his/her obnoxious behaviour.

The Entitlement Freaks are each On A Mission to prove
that they are indeed, the centre of the universe, and
that everybody else "owes" them.

No clue at eighteen, no clue at thirty, no clue at
forty... No clue *ever*.


Pretty hard to improve on that!

Harold