Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #81   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Jon Danniken
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

"jim rozen" wrote:
Jon Danniken says...

... Hence, I do not fixate on what everyone
in the line ahead of me is purchasing;


I often do. Usually the following thoughts occur:

1) how come they're taking so long.

2) why do I have to always be behind the genius who can pick
20 things off the shelf and *one* of them will be missing the
UPC code.

3) he's buying the wrong tool for that job.

4) if you poke me with that thing again you're gonna have to
buy me a drink (this one, about the guy behind me with the
cart full of pipe).

5) no you can't pay for that crap with a third party check
from a Uzbekistan bank. I don't care how often walmart lets
you do that.

6) if you can't figure out how the self-checkout works then
why don't you just stay home.

7) next time I'm gonna pay for this in the tool crib.

etc etc etc.


One of these days I'm going to drop a candy bar into your basket and watch
while you try and figure out where it came from.

Jon

  #82   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Larry Jaques
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On 16 Nov 2005 12:09:15 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, "rigger"
quickly quoth:

I don't consider doing nothing when

a crime is being committed being a better person. We appear to have

different standards, don't we.

Harold

Afew years ago some of the local college students and their friends
started throwing bottles at police who were attempting to control
their activities (setting sofas and dumpsters on fire, etc.). Later
they were unable to positivley identify those directly responsible
despite the fact of many dozens of people being in the immediate
vicinity of the "throwers". During the aftermath many school
orginizations spoke out about "the throwing was done by outside people
and not students, who after all, were all good citizens". This "good
citizen" comment was proven false because no student, of all those
present, ever stepped forward to identify the actual throwers (who
incidently permenently disfigured one policeman).
Social responsibility is a learned value; we're not born with it. Some
never learn ANYTHING; witness the terrible sociopathic types of
activity around us. No one would deny a citizen's right and
responsibility to step in if someone were being PHYSICALLY attacked
(although many documented cases of people NOT doing this exist). Your
actions mark you as someone who realizes your responsibility as a
citizen doesn't stop at your doorstep. I wish you were my neighbor.


Right on, Rig. If you want some horror stories about social behavior,
read pages #128-136 in the chapter "Social Proof" in Robert Cialdini's
book "Influence". It'll give you nightmares. (Great book, BTW.)

"Civilization" is a myth.



--
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  #83   Report Post  
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Gunner
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On 16 Nov 2005 12:09:15 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

I don't consider doing nothing when

a crime is being committed being a better person. We appear to have

different standards, don't we.

Harold

Afew years ago some of the local college students and their friends
started throwing bottles at police who were attempting to control
their activities (setting sofas and dumpsters on fire, etc.). Later
they were unable to positivley identify those directly responsible
despite the fact of many dozens of people being in the immediate
vicinity of the "throwers". During the aftermath many school
orginizations spoke out about "the throwing was done by outside people
and not students, who after all, were all good citizens". This "good
citizen" comment was proven false because no student, of all those
present, ever stepped forward to identify the actual throwers (who
incidently permenently disfigured one policeman).
Social responsibility is a learned value; we're not born with it. Some
never learn ANYTHING; witness the terrible sociopathic types of
activity around us. No one would deny a citizen's right and
responsibility to step in if someone were being PHYSICALLY attacked
(although many documented cases of people NOT doing this exist). Your
actions mark you as someone who realizes your responsibility as a
citizen doesn't stop at your doorstep. I wish you were my neighbor.

dennis
in nca


Kitty Genovese

38 good citizens witnessed her being murdered over the course of a
half hour or more. And no one did dick to help her.

I wonder why this thread brings her to mind?




"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if
nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace
personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed,
the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of
defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see
police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line
of defense." --Walter Williams
  #84   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
jim rozen
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

In article , Gunner says...

Kitty Genovese

38 good citizens witnessed her being murdered over the course of a
half hour or more. And no one did dick to help her.

I wonder why this thread brings her to mind?


I'm suprised you would bring her up. Aren't you supposed
to say "that's what she gets for living in NY?"

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
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==================================================
  #85   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema


"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On 16 Nov 2005 12:09:15 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

I don't consider doing nothing when

a crime is being committed being a better person. We appear to have

different standards, don't we.

Harold

Afew years ago some of the local college students and their friends
started throwing bottles at police who were attempting to control
their activities (setting sofas and dumpsters on fire, etc.). Later
they were unable to positivley identify those directly responsible
despite the fact of many dozens of people being in the immediate
vicinity of the "throwers". During the aftermath many school
orginizations spoke out about "the throwing was done by outside people
and not students, who after all, were all good citizens". This "good
citizen" comment was proven false because no student, of all those
present, ever stepped forward to identify the actual throwers (who
incidently permenently disfigured one policeman).
Social responsibility is a learned value; we're not born with it. Some
never learn ANYTHING; witness the terrible sociopathic types of
activity around us. No one would deny a citizen's right and
responsibility to step in if someone were being PHYSICALLY attacked
(although many documented cases of people NOT doing this exist). Your
actions mark you as someone who realizes your responsibility as a
citizen doesn't stop at your doorstep. I wish you were my neighbor.

dennis
in nca


Kitty Genovese

38 good citizens witnessed her being murdered over the course of a
half hour or more. And no one did dick to help her.

I wonder why this thread brings her to mind?


I rest my case! Thanks, Gunner.

Interestingly, look where the biggest loser, with the most vial of comments
directed towards me, lives-----It's as if living in heavily populated areas
tends to desensitize people---as long as it's not their problem, it isn't
happening. Very strange, for eventually your number comes up. Who do
you turn to? Why would you expect anyone to care when you didn't?

Harold





  #86   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema


"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos

says...

When I've heard
various opinions, I'll describe what I did, and why I did it.


You went back and nailed ten pieces of plywood together
and brought that up to the checkout counter?

:^)

Sorry harold, just couldn't resist!!

Jim


That's OK, Jim. What really ****es me off is I got caught by some guy behind
me. g

Harold


  #87   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
daniel peterman
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

I gotta HD story. So my house burns down and I need to buy some
fixtures. So I go in and it was pretty late and I was tired and I buy a
couple sinks and one faucet .... well I didn't notice they charged me
twice for that faucet
I went back about a week later and explained what happened. these so I
paid double for kitchen faucets. \
Who has more than 1 kitchen in their house?
So they just totally ripped me off
I think HD is owned by some crime syndicate.

  #88   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
 
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"daniel peterman" complained
So they just totally ripped me off
I think HD is owned by some crime syndicate.


Nah, they're owned by "Stupidity" syndicate. Nobody gives a damn about
doing their jobs right, and nobody in the store has the authority to make
any command decisions.

Home centers go through cycles. For a while, HD was the best in our area
(and pretty damned good), but now Lowes has swung "up" and HD has worse
service than WalMart.


LLoyd


  #89   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Larry Jaques
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:44:15 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" quickly quoth:


"Gunner" wrote in message


Kitty Genovese

38 good citizens witnessed her being murdered over the course of a
half hour or more. And no one did dick to help her.

I wonder why this thread brings her to mind?


I rest my case! Thanks, Gunner.


That's the case from the chapter I mentioned in Cialdini's book,
Harold. "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion"


Interestingly, look where the biggest loser, with the most vial of comments
directed towards me, lives-----It's as if living in heavily populated areas
tends to desensitize people---as long as it's not their problem, it isn't
happening. Very strange, for eventually your number comes up. Who do
you turn to? Why would you expect anyone to care when you didn't?


Another of the socialogical quirks we all need to be aware of that
Cialdini mentions is that if you're hurt or need help, don't make a
general plea like "HELP!", do NOT ask "everyone" for help. Look one
person in the eye and ask them or command them to do something you
need done right now. Asking everyone results in everyone waiting for
someone else to move, and nobody does.

Knowing that can save your life.

As for your detractors, their karma is coming. If they live in NYC,
part of it has already arrived. g


--
REBOOT AMERICA!
-----------------------
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  #90   Report Post  
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Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
snip--
That's the case from the chapter I mentioned in Cialdini's book,
Harold. "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion"


Interestingly, look where the biggest loser, with the most vial of

comments
directed towards me, lives-----It's as if living in heavily populated

areas
tends to desensitize people---as long as it's not their problem, it isn't
happening. Very strange, for eventually your number comes up. Who do
you turn to? Why would you expect anyone to care when you didn't?


Another of the socialogical quirks we all need to be aware of that
Cialdini mentions is that if you're hurt or need help, don't make a
general plea like "HELP!", do NOT ask "everyone" for help. Look one
person in the eye and ask them or command them to do something you
need done right now. Asking everyone results in everyone waiting for
someone else to move, and nobody does.

Knowing that can save your life.

As for your detractors, their karma is coming. If they live in NYC,
part of it has already arrived. g


--
REBOOT AMERICA!
-----------------------
http://diversify.com Website Programming


Thanks, Larry. So nice to know that there are rational people out there.

Harold




  #91   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Gunner
 
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On 17 Nov 2005 10:37:12 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Kitty Genovese

38 good citizens witnessed her being murdered over the course of a
half hour or more. And no one did dick to help her.

I wonder why this thread brings her to mind?


I'm suprised you would bring her up. Aren't you supposed
to say "that's what she gets for living in NY?"

Jim


Brain damage is what you get for living in NY.

So Jim..care to address the implied question?

Gunner


"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if
nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace
personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed,
the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of
defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see
police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line
of defense." --Walter Williams
  #92   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
jim rozen
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

In article , Gunner says...

Kitty Genovese


I'm suprised you would bring her up. Aren't you supposed
to say "that's what she gets for living in NY?"


Brain damage is what you get for living in NY.

So Jim..care to address the implied question?


About kitty genovese? There was no question posed about
her at all. But that was a long time ago, maybe things
have changed. On the one hand you have bernie goetze
on the NY subway, doing what he did. Then you have all
the folks who wrestled that colin fergueson guy to the
ground on the LIE.

All the lowlifes get the press, you never hear about the
folks who do the standup thing. This isn't particular
to NYC, or to any city in particular. You can say that
rural areas produce more upstanding citizens - but for
every kitty genovese incident, you have an Ed Gein
incident on the other side.

Jim


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please reply to:
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  #93   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
John Martin
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema


Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

38 good citizens witnessed her being murdered over the course of a
half hour or more. And no one did dick to help her.

I wonder why this thread brings her to mind?


I rest my case! Thanks, Gunner.

Interestingly, look where the biggest loser, with the most vial of comments
directed towards me, lives-----It's as if living in heavily populated areas
tends to desensitize people---as long as it's not their problem, it isn't
happening. Very strange, for eventually your number comes up. Who do
you turn to? Why would you expect anyone to care when you didn't?

Harold


Harold:

I think you're a bit off base in suggesting that where a person lives
is an insight into character, just as you were in suggesting that the
appearance of the cashier may have been important. An jackass is a
jackass, regardless of where they live or what they look like.

I believe, however, that what you did was right. "Mind your own
business" is a lot of crap. Especially after 9/11. I'll never forget
an interview I saw of a federal official after the plane had gone down
that day in Pennsylvania. He said that it appeared that some of the
passengers had taken the law into their own hands, which is of course
true. But his choice of words and the tone in which he spoke them
implied to me that he disapproved somewhat, and he felt that such
things should be left to the proper authorities to handle. I'd be
willing to bet you that there were passengers on the plane who felt the
same way. But attitudes have changed, for the better.

Frankly, I wouldn't get too upset by the comments you've seen. The
vast majority of the people here seem to think you took the high road.
Looking at those who don't, though, you've been called an asshole by:

1. the one whose own screen name refers to his own, and

2. the original ABRASive AssHole himself

Now all we need is for CASShole to return and chime in.

If I'm ever ahead of you in line at Home Depot, you might just see me
with plumbing fittings - or screws and washers and nuts - screwed
together. Don't get upset though - it'll be so I can make sure I'm
buying what I need. If the cashier misses something, I'll tell her.
Twice, if I have to.

Don't let the assholes get you down.

John Martin

  #94   Report Post  
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FaxMeBeer
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

Harold,

I hate to rain on your parade, but in reality, being in any group
greater than three creates a situation in which most people are less
likely to act in the face of a wrong that they witness (cite:
"Influence: application and practice") so, pointing out that someone is
from a heavily populated area and hense has been "desensitized" makes
no sense. Do Missouri meth producers get away with what they do
because they are located in the Ghetto? Well, probably not, because
they are almost all in Rural areas. So, why don't those good country
folk turn in their drug producing neighbors, if the size of the town
determines the morals of the inhabitants? Well, one thing has nothing
to do with the other, of course, and you're simply vomiting words onto
the screeen.

Come up with a reasoned line of argument, or stop sucking up bandwidth
that could be used for processing power to cure cancer.

http://rjcarroll.kicks-ass.net/weblog/index.php

  #95   Report Post  
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Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema


"FaxMeBeer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Harold,

I hate to rain on your parade, but in reality, being in any group
greater than three creates a situation in which most people are less
likely to act in the face of a wrong that they witness (cite:
"Influence: application and practice") so, pointing out that someone is
from a heavily populated area and hense has been "desensitized" makes
no sense. Do Missouri meth producers get away with what they do
because they are located in the Ghetto? Well, probably not, because
they are almost all in Rural areas. So, why don't those good country
folk turn in their drug producing neighbors, if the size of the town
determines the morals of the inhabitants? Well, one thing has nothing
to do with the other, of course, and you're simply vomiting words onto
the screeen.

Come up with a reasoned line of argument, or stop sucking up bandwidth
that could be used for processing power to cure cancer.

http://rjcarroll.kicks-ass.net/weblog/index.php


Perhaps you're right, but I was thinking of the studies some time ago
(sorry, no cites. Just recalling what I saw on TV) where white rats were
kept in heavy concentration. As they became more and more overpopulated,
they became very aggressive towards one another. I certainly didn't
intend for the comment to be negative towards any specific group. Just a
suggestion that those that live in heavy populations may get desensitized to
such things. Sort of a "not my problem" kind of attitude. Dunno.

Have to laugh at your suggestion that the band width in question might be
solving cancer. Anyone smart enough to do that isn't reading the stupid
things I post. :-)

Harold





  #96   Report Post  
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Jon Danniken
 
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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
Perhaps you're right, but I was thinking of the studies some time ago
(sorry, no cites. Just recalling what I saw on TV) where white rats were
kept in heavy concentration. As they became more and more overpopulated,
they became very aggressive towards one another.


Lack of privacy does that to humans, also. Think about that the next time
you're scoping out strangers at the market.

Jon

  #97   Report Post  
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Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
Perhaps you're right, but I was thinking of the studies some time ago
(sorry, no cites. Just recalling what I saw on TV) where white rats were
kept in heavy concentration. As they became more and more

overpopulated,
they became very aggressive towards one another.


Lack of privacy does that to humans, also. Think about that the next time
you're scoping out strangers at the market.

Jon


I can only assume that you're not making reference to the ordeal at HD in
this instance. I was hardly *scoping* anyone---but it wasn't too hard to
see what was going on when you understand the fittings as I do. It all
began very innocently----which is what created the dilemma for me. I know
what's right from wrong, but what should one do in a circumstance such as
this? Stand by as if it didn't happen? I'd be grateful if it was my store
and someone spoke up. That's how I made my decision.

Having said that,

Yeah, I agree. It's amazing how private some people are. We asked some new
neighbors, after "knowing" them for several weeks, how they met. She was
highly insulted. Must have had something to hide. To us, it was a way to
strengthen bonds. Apparently, to her, it was being way too nosy. Sigh.
Another incident later told me that she was trouble, and we simply quit
talking to them. Prior to that, when I'd talked to her husband alone, he
had implied that she was somewhat strange in that regard.

Harold


  #98   Report Post  
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Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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"John Martin" wrote in message
ups.com...

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

snip--

Interestingly, look where the biggest loser, with the most vial of

comments
directed towards me, lives-----It's as if living in heavily populated

areas
tends to desensitize people---as long as it's not their problem, it

isn't
happening. Very strange, for eventually your number comes up. Who

do
you turn to? Why would you expect anyone to care when you didn't?

Harold


Harold:

I think you're a bit off base in suggesting that where a person lives
is an insight into character, just as you were in suggesting that the
appearance of the cashier may have been important. An jackass is a
jackass, regardless of where they live or what they look like.


Cashier: I, perhaps, stated that poorly. I was implying that she didn't
appear to be "on the make", and could have chosen my words better, perhaps.
Of course, no one can judge a book by its cover. My ex was loose and it
shocked everyone when it was disclosed. You'd think I'd have learned by
now! g

Just reflecting on the thing I saw on TV long ago, where rats were forced to
live in congested colonies. They turned quite aggressive towards one
another. I mentioned in a different reply that I meant nothing towards
folks that live in specific areas, although it sure as hell looks like I did
when I read what I posted. Apology extended to anyone that may have been
offended. It wasn't meant to be rude.


I believe, however, that what you did was right. "Mind your own
business" is a lot of crap.


Thanks for your vote of confidence. We apparently share similar feelings.
All it took for me was to turn it around and wonder how I'd feel if I owned
the store. I'd want to know.

Especially after 9/11. I'll never forget
an interview I saw of a federal official after the plane had gone down
that day in Pennsylvania. He said that it appeared that some of the
passengers had taken the law into their own hands, which is of course
true. But his choice of words and the tone in which he spoke them
implied to me that he disapproved somewhat, and he felt that such
things should be left to the proper authorities to handle.


Like New Orleans? g Sort of like a pig on stilts? It's *our* society.
We must be in charge.

I'd be
willing to bet you that there were passengers on the plane who felt the
same way. But attitudes have changed, for the better.

Frankly, I wouldn't get too upset by the comments you've seen. The
vast majority of the people here seem to think you took the high road.
Looking at those who don't, though, you've been called an asshole by:

1. the one whose own screen name refers to his own, and

2. the original ABRASive AssHole himself

Now all we need is for CASShole to return and chime in.


Thanks to this thread, I have now started plonking folks. Interestingly
Cliff isn't on the list. He may be weird, and may talk about things that
don't interest me, but I simply ignore him.

There are, clearly, some people that don't share my philosophy, and their
way of thinking conflicts drastically with mine. I'm not going to suggest
which of us is right, or wrong. I simply have no desire to hear from them,
and certainly don't intend to spend any of my time reading what they have to
say, particularly when they can't do it without vulgarity and profanity.
Hell, I'm no prude. I worked in machine shops all my life except for the
last few years. I can (and do) spout language that would make a sailor
blush, but I have enough decency to know that some people that read here
have manners and don't enjoy such talk. I try to respect them, and their
right to be free from such things. Besides, it's a reflection on me, as a
person, to lower myself to such standards. What was that saying? It's
better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt?


If I'm ever ahead of you in line at Home Depot, you might just see me
with plumbing fittings - or screws and washers and nuts - screwed
together. Don't get upset though - it'll be so I can make sure I'm
buying what I need. If the cashier misses something, I'll tell her.
Twice, if I have to.


A man with honor and high principles, it's obvious. I'd be proud to know
you.

Don't let the assholes get you down.

John Martin

With good folks like you responding, no chance!

Thanks, John.

Harold



  #99   Report Post  
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Jon Danniken
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
Perhaps you're right, but I was thinking of the studies some time ago
(sorry, no cites. Just recalling what I saw on TV) where white rats

were
kept in heavy concentration. As they became more and more

overpopulated,
they became very aggressive towards one another.


Lack of privacy does that to humans, also. Think about that the next

time
you're scoping out strangers at the market.


I can only assume that you're not making reference to the ordeal at HD in
this instance. I was hardly *scoping* anyone---but it wasn't too hard to
see what was going on when you understand the fittings as I do. It all
began very innocently----which is what created the dilemma for me. I know
what's right from wrong, but what should one do in a circumstance such as
this? Stand by as if it didn't happen? I'd be grateful if it was my

store
and someone spoke up. That's how I made my decision.

Having said that,

Yeah, I agree. It's amazing how private some people are. We asked some

new
neighbors, after "knowing" them for several weeks, how they met. She

was
highly insulted. Must have had something to hide.


Defnitely. My guess is they met at a coven during a demonic ritual,
probably while eating the flesh of an unbaptized child. You should burn
down their house, just to be on the safe side (make sure they are in it, of
course, wouldn't want them casting any spells on you).

Jon

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rigger
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

Harold said:
Thanks to this thread, I have now started plonking folks.


Hmmm, I wonder if I'm on the list. I guess I'll go ahead and find out.

There are also other ways to handle online people who have no control
over their actions. I just hate to see anyone forced to retreat (my
definition) from an online confrontation. Easier might be to merely
ignore their posts, which is my approach. I feel a little cleaner this
way. Just a personal thing.

I'm sure suggesting everyone in New York was impaired was never on your
mind and, in fact, your statement didn't read that way at all. Instead
I see you doing the correct thing necessary for survival which was
"profiling". Profiling is in bad repute now but if anyone here has
lived in a large city they realize it's a necessary tool.
Example: "Watch out when traveling in certain areas of Chicago,
especially at night." (Anyone with knowledge of any other large city
can duplicate this statement to match their area of familiarity.) Does
this mean everyone in these areas is a dangerous person?
No!!! Does the answer "No" mean I'd let my guard down in these areas?
HELL no. For those with a very high "PC" rating let them take the
risk; I've got a family and I wouldn't jepordize their future (to say
nothing of my own) by ignoring what I know to be true.

I've lived in large cities and tiny towns and it's easy to state
without reservation: You'd be better off raising your personal
security/observation level when in ANY large city vs. a small town (New
York included). I think most agree this is so obvious as to be beyond
discussion as was your suggestion people (as a group) behave
differently in any large city as opposed to a less crowded invironment
(New York included).

I'd even propose the rediculous inspections of passengers at airports
is the dehumanizing process it is because people are afraid to use
their common sense and are afraid they won't be PC. The police are
often dragged out in public and flayed over profiling when anyone with
a mere smidgen of intelligence realizes this is an essential tool of
their trade.

Stick with what you've been taught and learned through the years to be
true and ignore the ranting of the uneducated. If these people can't
learn from your experience let them learn the hard way.

dennis
in nca



  #101   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 02:43:31 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" quickly quoth:

Thanks to this thread, I have now started plonking folks. Interestingly
Cliff isn't on the list. He may be weird, and may talk about things that
don't interest me, but I simply ignore him.


How can you ignore 30 posts a day from him and 300 replies to him?
It makes one sick, it does.


Don't let the assholes get you down.


Illegitimus Non Carborundum is the way I saw it put.
(Now watch the Latin-speaking college boys jump on the spelling.


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  #102   Report Post  
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John Martin
 
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rigger wrote:

I'd even propose the rediculous inspections of passengers at airports
is the dehumanizing process it is because people are afraid to use
their common sense and are afraid they won't be PC. The police are
often dragged out in public and flayed over profiling when anyone with
a mere smidgen of intelligence realizes this is an essential tool of
their trade.

Stick with what you've been taught and learned through the years to be
true and ignore the ranting of the uneducated. If these people can't
learn from your experience let them learn the hard way.

dennis
in nca


Dennis:

It's not that people are afraid to use their common sense, it's that we
have made it illegal to do so. PC has become not a moral guide, but
the law. If an inspector at the airport were to single out for more
thorough scrutiny everyone his common sense told him might be a threat,
he'd make not only the newspapers but also the court docket. Common
sense has been thrown out like the baby with the bath water.

I wonder if the Israelis worry as much about the evils of profiling at
their airports as we do at ours?

Remember Jesse Jackson's statement that, when he heard footsteps behind
him on a dark street and turned to see who was behind him, he was
relieved if he saw that his follower was white? How many people
branded him as a racist for that remark? Very few. Instead, the
reaction was that it was sad but true, and just common sense. Now,
let's just imagine that it was instead Pat Robertson that said it. Or
someone the press really likes, such as Dick Cheney. Or, maybe, Bill
Bennett. Think he stands a chance now if he should run for political
office?

I choose common sense over political correctness, as I suspect a lot of
the other people on this newsgroup do. At the cost of occasionally
being called an unfeeling dinosaur, or something worse.

On the other hand, common sense being applied by someone who lacks it
can be dangerous indeed.

John Martin

  #103   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema


"rigger" wrote in message
ups.com...
Harold said:
Thanks to this thread, I have now started plonking folks.


Hmmm, I wonder if I'm on the list. I guess I'll go ahead and find out.


Never, *EVER*, for folks with manners. I don't care how much anyone
disagrees with me (why must we all agree on everything?), it can be done
politely. I see no need for anyone to be rude, crude and
insulting----those guys get it instantly. Never to return, unless they post
a message of apology------which is likely to come when pigs fly and sing.


snip---great stuff, though. And I agree, profiling is what smart people
do. When frisk old ladies in wheel chairs when the enemy is known to be a
young male?

Harold


  #104   Report Post  
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Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
Perhaps you're right, but I was thinking of the studies some time

ago
(sorry, no cites. Just recalling what I saw on TV) where white rats

were
kept in heavy concentration. As they became more and more

overpopulated,
they became very aggressive towards one another.

Lack of privacy does that to humans, also. Think about that the next

time
you're scoping out strangers at the market.


I can only assume that you're not making reference to the ordeal at HD

in
this instance. I was hardly *scoping* anyone---but it wasn't too hard

to
see what was going on when you understand the fittings as I do. It all
began very innocently----which is what created the dilemma for me. I

know
what's right from wrong, but what should one do in a circumstance such

as
this? Stand by as if it didn't happen? I'd be grateful if it was my

store
and someone spoke up. That's how I made my decision.

Having said that,

Yeah, I agree. It's amazing how private some people are. We asked some

new
neighbors, after "knowing" them for several weeks, how they met. She

was
highly insulted. Must have had something to hide.


Defnitely. My guess is they met at a coven during a demonic ritual,
probably while eating the flesh of an unbaptized child. You should burn
down their house, just to be on the safe side (make sure they are in it,

of
course, wouldn't want them casting any spells on you).

Jon


Consider it done. Not only is the house burned to the ground, I enjoyed a
feast of the roasted flesh of the wife. Let me tell you, that gal was
tough.g

Harold


  #105   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Jon Danniken
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:

Defnitely. My guess is they met at a coven during a demonic ritual,
probably while eating the flesh of an unbaptized child. You should burn
down their house, just to be on the safe side (make sure they are in it,

of
course, wouldn't want them casting any spells on you).


Consider it done. Not only is the house burned to the ground, I enjoyed a
feast of the roasted flesh of the wife. Let me tell you, that gal was
tough.g


LOL Harold; you're a good sport..

Jon



  #106   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On 19 Nov 2005 09:57:49 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, "John
Martin" quickly quoth:

It's not that people are afraid to use their common sense, it's that we
have made it illegal to do so. PC has become not a moral guide, but


John, it's that too many folks don't -have- any common sense to use
which causes the problems. Granted, a PC society eschews it, too.


Remember Jesse Jackson's statement that, when he heard footsteps behind
him on a dark street and turned to see who was behind him, he was
relieved if he saw that his follower was white? How many people
branded him as a racist for that remark? Very few. Instead, the


Gee, he's racist against blacks, too? Will wonders never cease?

I strongly feel that Jesse Jackson is one of the, if not the, largest
bigot in America today. He's a reverse racist, a black who hates
whites. Louis Farrakhan is another one right up there with Jackson.
The KKK's hatred probably pales in comparison.



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  #107   Report Post  
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Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:54:15 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" quickly quoth:

"rigger" wrote in message
snip---great stuff, though. And I agree, profiling is what smart people
do. When frisk old ladies in wheel chairs when the enemy is known to be a
young male?


Sorry, Harold, but smart people would frisk EVERYONE every time if
there was a chance of one smuggling weapons or bombs aboard aircraft.
Smart people would check all FREIGHT, too.

Does that tell you what the priorities of these goons are?


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  #108   Report Post  
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rigger
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

Larry says:
I strongly feel that Jesse Jackson is one of the, if not the, largest

bigot in America today. He's a reverse racist, a black who hates
whites. Louis Farrakhan is another one right up there with Jackson.
The KKK's hatred probably pales in comparison.

Having lived most of my life in the Chicagoland area I learned a
dislike for JJ early on. He is about the most self serving person you
can imagine. So it's especially hard to defend him but in this case I
guess I will.

His statement about his feeling safer if a white person was walking
behind him instead of a black person was not exclusive. I doubt he
lost any following because of it because the feeling is shared by many
black people. Just look at the statistics concerning who does the
crime in black neighborhoods and, then of course, it's obvious.

There was more to that JJ speech which had a lot to do with his
disappointment with the way blacks treated blacks, which was the point
of his statement. I believe this is one of the few things I can agree
with in his agenda. Not an overt racist like Louis Farrakhan who would
like to destroy all white people, but instead a politician who doesn't
care if his votes are black or white. He's actually pretty careful not
to antagonize most of the time.

dennis
in nca

  #109   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:54:15 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" quickly quoth:

"rigger" wrote in message
snip---great stuff, though. And I agree, profiling is what smart people
do. When frisk old ladies in wheel chairs when the enemy is known to be

a
young male?


Sorry, Harold, but smart people would frisk EVERYONE every time if
there was a chance of one smuggling weapons or bombs aboard aircraft.
Smart people would check all FREIGHT, too.

Does that tell you what the priorities of these goons are?


Oh yeah! I agree. It's not that I'm against proper security, but when a
notice of a particular type individual is posted, and a tired old gal in a
wheel chair is frisked while someone that closely matches the description is
waved through, for fear of "profiling"--something's badly broken in how we
do things. That was my point. If you're looking for an old long gray
haired Greek that wears a beard and has way too much to say, then that's who
you should be paying attention to. Even if it offends him when he's not
the guy.

No, I'm not guilty. I was just using myself as an example. g

Harold


  #110   Report Post  
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Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema


"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Jon Danniken" wrote:

Defnitely. My guess is they met at a coven during a demonic ritual,
probably while eating the flesh of an unbaptized child. You should

burn
down their house, just to be on the safe side (make sure they are in

it,
of
course, wouldn't want them casting any spells on you).


Consider it done. Not only is the house burned to the ground, I enjoyed

a
feast of the roasted flesh of the wife. Let me tell you, that gal was
tough.g


LOL Harold; you're a good sport..

Jon


And you, Sir, have manners. I like that!

Harold




  #111   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Gunner Asch
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 02:16:07 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Yeah, I agree. It's amazing how private some people are. We asked some new
neighbors, after "knowing" them for several weeks, how they met. She was
highly insulted. Must have had something to hide. To us, it was a way to
strengthen bonds. Apparently, to her, it was being way too nosy. Sigh.
Another incident later told me that she was trouble, and we simply quit
talking to them. Prior to that, when I'd talked to her husband alone, he
had implied that she was somewhat strange in that regard.

Harold


Marrying her out of the whore house can do that to a woman..makes her
mighty squeemish about her background

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
  #112   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Gunner Asch
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On 19 Nov 2005 07:26:25 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

Harold said:
Thanks to this thread, I have now started plonking folks.


Hmmm, I wonder if I'm on the list. I guess I'll go ahead and find out.

There are also other ways to handle online people who have no control
over their actions. I just hate to see anyone forced to retreat (my
definition) from an online confrontation. Easier might be to merely
ignore their posts, which is my approach. I feel a little cleaner this
way. Just a personal thing.

I'm sure suggesting everyone in New York was impaired was never on your
mind and, in fact, your statement didn't read that way at all. Instead
I see you doing the correct thing necessary for survival which was
"profiling". Profiling is in bad repute now but if anyone here has
lived in a large city they realize it's a necessary tool.
Example: "Watch out when traveling in certain areas of Chicago,
especially at night." (Anyone with knowledge of any other large city
can duplicate this statement to match their area of familiarity.) Does
this mean everyone in these areas is a dangerous person?
No!!! Does the answer "No" mean I'd let my guard down in these areas?
HELL no. For those with a very high "PC" rating let them take the
risk; I've got a family and I wouldn't jepordize their future (to say
nothing of my own) by ignoring what I know to be true.

I've lived in large cities and tiny towns and it's easy to state
without reservation: You'd be better off raising your personal
security/observation level when in ANY large city vs. a small town (New
York included). I think most agree this is so obvious as to be beyond
discussion as was your suggestion people (as a group) behave
differently in any large city as opposed to a less crowded invironment
(New York included).

I'd even propose the rediculous inspections of passengers at airports
is the dehumanizing process it is because people are afraid to use
their common sense and are afraid they won't be PC. The police are
often dragged out in public and flayed over profiling when anyone with
a mere smidgen of intelligence realizes this is an essential tool of
their trade.

Stick with what you've been taught and learned through the years to be
true and ignore the ranting of the uneducated. If these people can't
learn from your experience let them learn the hard way.

dennis
in nca


http://www.teddytactical.com/Sharpen...0Awareness.htm


Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
  #113   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 07:15:16 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

On 19 Nov 2005 07:26:25 -0800, "rigger" wrote:
I'd even propose the rediculous inspections of passengers at airports
is the dehumanizing process it is because people are afraid to use
their common sense and are afraid they won't be PC. The police are
often dragged out in public and flayed over profiling when anyone with
a mere smidgen of intelligence realizes this is an essential tool of
their trade.


Keenly trained senses of awareness and innate psychic abilities will
be outlawed soon, no doubt, as they're not PC. Feh! big sigh


Stick with what you've been taught and learned through the years to be
true and ignore the ranting of the uneducated. If these people can't
learn from your experience let them learn the hard way.

dennis
in nca


http://www.teddytactical.com/Sharpen...0Awareness.htm


That's an excellent discourse. I hadn't realized how long I'd been
using a system like this until you posted this last time, Gunner.
And I've watched others walk right into things (physically and
situationally) by having their minds somewhere else. tsk tsk tsk

Quickly, everyone. Think back to your last accident in the shop or
around the house. Was your mind where it was supposed to be?
WAG: odds are 100:1 against. DAMHIKT.


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  #114   Report Post  
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rigger
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

Gunner gave us:
http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm


No real metal content here so I think this will be my last post to this
thread but in the meantime:

This is a great interpretation of Jeff Cooper's ideas. I just would
like to debate one item and find out what you think about it as well.

During a "Red" situation I think, for most, it might be preferable to
go a step further. Instead of having your hand "hoovering" over a
weapon and possibly turning this into a contest of who's the fastest
draw (I'd probably lose) what would you think of concealing in such a
way as to make actual contact with the weapon? In a retail situation
this may require several weapons in different under-counter locations.
For an individual this may require a "pocket" pistol, For the older
citizen this may replace the reaction time lost to aging. It requires
more "hoops" and training but, I feel, is required to be as effective
as possible.

Ideas?

dennis
in nca

  #115   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Bob Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

I strongly feel that Jesse Jackson is one of the, if not the, largest
bigot in America today. He's a reverse racist, a black who hates
whites. Louis Farrakhan is another one right up there with Jackson.
The KKK's hatred probably pales in comparison.


I usually no longer reply to OT posts, BUT you have just triggered one
of my pet peeves. There is no such thing as a REVERSE RACIST. A RACIST
IS A RACIST NO MATTER WHAT HIS COLOR TO WHATEVER COLOR, IT IS RACISM.

Rant off, This is just one of the things That causes me to rant.
Now I will fade back into the shadows.

Live long and prosper. Grin


  #116   Report Post  
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Gunner Asch
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On 20 Nov 2005 07:08:12 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

Gunner gave us:
http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm


No real metal content here so I think this will be my last post to this
thread but in the meantime:

This is a great interpretation of Jeff Cooper's ideas. I just would
like to debate one item and find out what you think about it as well.

During a "Red" situation I think, for most, it might be preferable to
go a step further. Instead of having your hand "hoovering" over a
weapon and possibly turning this into a contest of who's the fastest
draw (I'd probably lose) what would you think of concealing in such a
way as to make actual contact with the weapon? In a retail situation
this may require several weapons in different under-counter locations.
For an individual this may require a "pocket" pistol, For the older
citizen this may replace the reaction time lost to aging. It requires
more "hoops" and training but, I feel, is required to be as effective
as possible.

Ideas?

dennis
in nca


I managed a pawn shop (part of a chain of them) for a couple years,
and the owner was very much like the owners listed below. A survivor
of several in-store gunfights.

We had a pistol every 8-10 feet behind every counter, and we all
carried handguns, either exposed or concealed...in some cases..both
Fortunately..no armed bad guys came into my particular store..well...a
couple did..but after scoping the place out...decided to go elsewhere,
thanks be (insert diety of your choice).
Having a weapon on your person, is far far better than having one 12"
out of reach. Trust me on this....Im alive because I believe in
this...

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...27/ai_99130342
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...26/ai_82533205

http://www.thegunzone.com/gunfighting.html


Rules of a Gunfight

Avoid them like the plague
Be aware of what is going on around you by staying in condition
yellow.
Have a plan or two. (If not, a "Last Will & Testament will do.)
Corollary: No plan survives contact with the enemy.
Bring at least one gun (don't bring a knife).
Bring the biggest gun you can handle.
Bring friends (as friendly witnesses or fire support).*
Let close air support or artillery soften-up the target for you. ;-)
Make use of available cover.
Remember the difference between concealment and cover.
Don't get shot (Use cover to your advantage).
Place your shots well.
Pay attention to where your shots fall.
"Speed's fine, but accuracy is final."
Don't miss. (You can't miss fast enough to win.)
Rules of drawing
If you're the bad guy, draw & shoot first.
If you're the good guy, draw second and shoot first.
Never turn your back on an armed bad guy, even if he's down.
Rules of wounds
A "sucking chest wound" is nature's way of telling you to slow down.
If you're bleeding to death, say something witty.
If you're actually dying, say something deep.
Never assume your opponent is out of ammo.
Bring lots of ammo.
In combat, you will be scared. You will have a tendency to shoot high.
Be aware of this and aim low.
Rules of quitting
Don't quit just because you're hit; GET EVEN!
Never quit, period.
There is no prize for second place.
There's no such thing as "unfair advantage."
He who lives to run away will live to run another day (the best
strategy is being somewhere else).
It is better to give than receive (Just like Christmas).
Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are dangerous.
Anything you do can get you shot, including nothing.
If your opponents didn't have the courtesy to "Count Off!" before
beginning, assume that there's one more somewhere.
When the cops pull up, think fast and move slow.
Say nothing afterwards but the Seven Magic Words: "I'd like to speak
with my attorney."
Distribute press releases indicating you target belongs to a cult.*
Drop the one with the shotgun first.
Afterward, alter evidence to favor your position and plan for
perjury.*
Use cutesy green-and-purple colored weapons and ammo so the press
won't show any video of your non-evil-looking equipment. Fuzzy
rifle-wrap works best.
Insist on at least $50K from tabloid TV producers.

[all rules with a * following them apply to Feds and BATF]
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
  #117   Report Post  
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Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:03:54 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

Having a weapon on your person, is far far better than having one 12"
out of reach. Trust me on this....Im alive because I believe in
this...


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...26/ai_82533205


Hmmm, the guy didn't like the Glaser safety rounds. When I was picking
up some 9mm practice ammo at BiMart the other day, I saw Remington's
Self-Defense rounds. It's a jacketed hollow point with a needle in the
center! Ever used/heard of these things? $12.99 for 25 rounds.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm suggests that the
Remington 115 grain 9mm JHPs I found for $8.99 would be fine for
defensive use.


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  #118   Report Post  
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Gunner Asch
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:17:36 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:03:54 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

Having a weapon on your person, is far far better than having one 12"
out of reach. Trust me on this....Im alive because I believe in
this...


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...26/ai_82533205


Hmmm, the guy didn't like the Glaser safety rounds. When I was picking
up some 9mm practice ammo at BiMart the other day, I saw Remington's
Self-Defense rounds. It's a jacketed hollow point with a needle in the
center! Ever used/heard of these things? $12.99 for 25 rounds.


the "needle" indicates its a Hydroshock bullet or similar design. Its
intended to help stablilze the bullet..ie keep it point forwards as
the jacket peels back and the lead core expands. Pretty good round. I
keep my .45 street guns loaded with them.


http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm suggests that the
Remington 115 grain 9mm JHPs I found for $8.99 would be fine for
defensive use.


Not a bad article. Ive some disagreements with some of his
conclusions, based on my own terminal ballistics testing, and viewing
a number of shooting reviews and autopsies..but pretty decent.

One example is his usage of 00 buck, which I dislike tremendously. I
much rather..and do..use #4 buck in the shotguns.

Shrug..but all in all..not bad. Oh..Federal Nyclad hollowpoints are
what I carry in the 38 belly guns, and the .357s, but Federal
discontinued them late last year, so finding them is becoming
problematic. In the .41 Mag. I carry a SWC hollowpoint of my own
design, that seems to be a decent self defense round based on duct
seal, water jug and coyote testing.

I might mention that the few 9s I own..are loaded with 124gr
Hydroshocks, though I concurr with his statements on other good loads
in the Wonder Nine.

Gunner


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"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
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Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default OT----Opinions requested on a moral dillema

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:16:21 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:17:36 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:03:54 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
Asch quickly quoth:

Having a weapon on your person, is far far better than having one 12"
out of reach. Trust me on this....Im alive because I believe in
this...


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...26/ai_82533205


Hmmm, the guy didn't like the Glaser safety rounds. When I was picking
up some 9mm practice ammo at BiMart the other day, I saw Remington's
Self-Defense rounds. It's a jacketed hollow point with a needle in the
center! Ever used/heard of these things? $12.99 for 25 rounds.


the "needle" indicates its a Hydroshock bullet or similar design. Its
intended to help stablilze the bullet..ie keep it point forwards as
the jacket peels back and the lead core expands. Pretty good round. I
keep my .45 street guns loaded with them.


http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm suggests that the
Remington 115 grain 9mm JHPs I found for $8.99 would be fine for
defensive use.


Not a bad article. Ive some disagreements with some of his
conclusions, based on my own terminal ballistics testing, and viewing
a number of shooting reviews and autopsies..but pretty decent.


Such as not liking the Hydroshock ammo at all?


One example is his usage of 00 buck, which I dislike tremendously. I
much rather..and do..use #4 buck in the shotguns.




Shrug..but all in all..not bad. Oh..Federal Nyclad hollowpoints are
what I carry in the 38 belly guns, and the .357s, but Federal
discontinued them late last year, so finding them is becoming
problematic. In the .41 Mag. I carry a SWC hollowpoint of my own
design, that seems to be a decent self defense round based on duct
seal, water jug and coyote testing.


Surely, in CA, there are stray liberals on which to test. bseg
(/Huh? I didn't say that.)

So, what does coyote taste like? You eat your kill, oui?


I might mention that the few 9s I own..are loaded with 124gr
Hydroshocks, though I concurr with his statements on other good loads
in the Wonder Nine.




I'm hoping my P11 will like these Remington JHP rounds. I had a
problem with no-name s&w 59 magazines and had to go to prefired
factory stainless mags at twice the price (plus paying for return and
the $10 CDNN shipping fee, a thing which damnear put me off CDNN for
good, the bastids. They are, however, the only place I've see where I
could get an 8-shot, pump, 12ga shotgun for $139.)


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