OT Ford truck problem Redux...
 

For starters, My apologies, Jwho, it never occured to me that I was
*bragging* by saying that I got 2 responses from the ford group.
Never looked much there before, but now that I have, I guess I WAS
bragging!


OK, here's the story...

Last night the suspense was killing me, so I went out and worked on
my truck between passing bands of rain. The OBD codes indicated that I
had trouble with either the throttle position sensor, or the EGR valve
position sensor, or both. Changing or testing the TP sensor requires
removing the throttle body, so I took it off. Pretty easy maybe a 20
minute job. I also took off the EGR position sensor, snapping off one
of the 8-32 screws that hold it on. Blah. Soft, cheesey screw, drilled
out and cleaned up the threads pretty easily (metalworking content, no
longer OT. Heh). Brought both into shop where it was not raining and I
had light.

The idle air valve came off with the throttle body, so I took it off.
It looked pretty clean inside, resistance tested OK, and the plunger
opened when I jazzed it with 12V. I deemed it vindicated.

The EGR sensor test outlined in the manual called for some voltage
tests in the vehicle, key on, engine off. It was raining out again,
and I was sick of getting wet. I did an ohmmeter test. It appears to
be a simple 3 wire pot, whose wiper is actuated by a plunger thing
that rests on the EGR valve diaphram. It "looked like" it was working
OK, but that was not the offical test, and I did not know what the
correct resistance should be.

I tested the TP sensor according to the info from the Autozone site,
a basic resistance test of what also appears to be a pot. It tested OK
too.

But I was still suspicous. I fix electrical/electronic stuff for a
living, and have seen lots of pots measure OK but still fail in use
due to "dead spots" in their range of motion. Particularly with these
sort of position feedback pots that tend to spend much of their lives
moving through only a small percentage of their range. Those can be
difficult to find with an ohmmeter. So I called the local autozone
place, they checked and said the had both parts, so I ran down there.
As it turned out, they didn't *really* have the TP sensor, just the
EGR one. So I plunked down my 28 bucks, and headed to the next parts
place. Got the TP sensor there ($45) came home and when there was a
break in the rain, ran out and installed all of my cool new stuff.

The bottom line is that the truck started up, ran fine and even
idled! In gear, out of gear, a/c running, it still idled. Way cool. I
drove it to work and just around a bit today, and it looks like I got
it.

So I still do not know which of the 2 parts was the culprit. Could
still have been both. I am not really inclined to put one of the old
ones back just for the sake of an experiment. At this point, I am just
glad it runs. But as the TP sensor is harder to change, and it is
ALWAYS the more difficult to get at part that is bad, Larry gets to
say "I told ya so..."

Go ahead, I can take it.

And, Larry, as to weather Gunner qualifies as "famous" or "infamous"
is a bit of semantics that I REFUSE to get in the middle of!!

Thanks again to all who responded. I appreciate your all taking the
time. like I said, you guys are awesome.

Watch your mailbox for the check for $37.50. That's right, you just
keep watching...


Al A.

OT Ford truck problem Redux...
 

Congratulations on getting it fixed!

I was just messin' with ya on saying you were bragging. I have had
extremely little success with the two main ford truck forums.


"Al A." wrote in message
...
For starters, My apologies, Jwho, it never occured to me that I was
*bragging* by saying that I got 2 responses from the ford group.
Never looked much there before, but now that I have, I guess I WAS
bragging!


OK, here's the story...

Last night the suspense was killing me, so I went out and worked on
my truck between passing bands of rain. The OBD codes indicated that I
had trouble with either the throttle position sensor, or the EGR valve
position sensor, or both. Changing or testing the TP sensor requires
removing the throttle body, so I took it off. Pretty easy maybe a 20
minute job. I also took off the EGR position sensor, snapping off one
of the 8-32 screws that hold it on. Blah. Soft, cheesey screw, drilled
out and cleaned up the threads pretty easily (metalworking content, no
longer OT. Heh). Brought both into shop where it was not raining and I
had light.

The idle air valve came off with the throttle body, so I took it off.
It looked pretty clean inside, resistance tested OK, and the plunger
opened when I jazzed it with 12V. I deemed it vindicated.

The EGR sensor test outlined in the manual called for some voltage
tests in the vehicle, key on, engine off. It was raining out again,
and I was sick of getting wet. I did an ohmmeter test. It appears to
be a simple 3 wire pot, whose wiper is actuated by a plunger thing
that rests on the EGR valve diaphram. It "looked like" it was working
OK, but that was not the offical test, and I did not know what the
correct resistance should be.

I tested the TP sensor according to the info from the Autozone site,
a basic resistance test of what also appears to be a pot. It tested OK
too.

But I was still suspicous. I fix electrical/electronic stuff for a
living, and have seen lots of pots measure OK but still fail in use
due to "dead spots" in their range of motion. Particularly with these
sort of position feedback pots that tend to spend much of their lives
moving through only a small percentage of their range. Those can be
difficult to find with an ohmmeter. So I called the local autozone
place, they checked and said the had both parts, so I ran down there.
As it turned out, they didn't *really* have the TP sensor, just the
EGR one. So I plunked down my 28 bucks, and headed to the next parts
place. Got the TP sensor there ($45) came home and when there was a
break in the rain, ran out and installed all of my cool new stuff.

The bottom line is that the truck started up, ran fine and even
idled! In gear, out of gear, a/c running, it still idled. Way cool. I
drove it to work and just around a bit today, and it looks like I got
it.

So I still do not know which of the 2 parts was the culprit. Could
still have been both. I am not really inclined to put one of the old
ones back just for the sake of an experiment. At this point, I am just
glad it runs. But as the TP sensor is harder to change, and it is
ALWAYS the more difficult to get at part that is bad, Larry gets to
say "I told ya so..."

Go ahead, I can take it.

And, Larry, as to weather Gunner qualifies as "famous" or "infamous"
is a bit of semantics that I REFUSE to get in the middle of!!

Thanks again to all who responded. I appreciate your all taking the
time. like I said, you guys are awesome.

Watch your mailbox for the check for $37.50. That's right, you just
keep watching...


Al A.

OT Ford truck problem Redux...
 

JWho wrote:
Congratulations on getting it fixed!

I was just messin' with ya on saying you were bragging. I have had
extremely little success with the two main ford truck forums.

That's too bad. I've had real good luck with TheDieselStop.com.
There's a wealth of info there on the Superduty line, very active
membership. I solved the only problem I ever had (bad vehicle speed
sensor) in about 20 minutes on that site.


--
Gary Brady
Austin, TX
www.powdercoatoven.4t.com

OT Ford truck problem Redux...
 

But I was still suspicous. I fix electrical/electronic stuff for a
living, and have seen lots of pots measure OK but still fail in use
due to "dead spots" in their range of motion. Particularly with these
sort of position feedback pots that tend to spend much of their lives
moving through only a small percentage of their range.

You probably know this but I'll point it out just in case.... if you're
using a digital meter you'll most likely miss a noisy or burned pot because
a digital meter updates periodically rather than continuously.

An analog meter checks continuously and you'll see the needle jump all over
the place if the pot is noisy and you'll see it jump at burned or dead spots
too.

Best Regards,
Keith Marshall


"I'm not grown up enough to be so old!"


"Al A." wrote in message
...
For starters, My apologies, Jwho, it never occured to me that I was
*bragging* by saying that I got 2 responses from the ford group.
Never looked much there before, but now that I have, I guess I WAS
bragging!


OK, here's the story...

Last night the suspense was killing me, so I went out and worked on
my truck between passing bands of rain. The OBD codes indicated that I
had trouble with either the throttle position sensor, or the EGR valve
position sensor, or both. Changing or testing the TP sensor requires
removing the throttle body, so I took it off. Pretty easy maybe a 20
minute job. I also took off the EGR position sensor, snapping off one
of the 8-32 screws that hold it on. Blah. Soft, cheesey screw, drilled
out and cleaned up the threads pretty easily (metalworking content, no
longer OT. Heh). Brought both into shop where it was not raining and I
had light.

The idle air valve came off with the throttle body, so I took it off.
It looked pretty clean inside, resistance tested OK, and the plunger
opened when I jazzed it with 12V. I deemed it vindicated.

The EGR sensor test outlined in the manual called for some voltage
tests in the vehicle, key on, engine off. It was raining out again,
and I was sick of getting wet. I did an ohmmeter test. It appears to
be a simple 3 wire pot, whose wiper is actuated by a plunger thing
that rests on the EGR valve diaphram. It "looked like" it was working
OK, but that was not the offical test, and I did not know what the
correct resistance should be.

I tested the TP sensor according to the info from the Autozone site,
a basic resistance test of what also appears to be a pot. It tested OK
too.

But I was still suspicous. I fix electrical/electronic stuff for a
living, and have seen lots of pots measure OK but still fail in use
due to "dead spots" in their range of motion. Particularly with these
sort of position feedback pots that tend to spend much of their lives
moving through only a small percentage of their range. Those can be
difficult to find with an ohmmeter. So I called the local autozone
place, they checked and said the had both parts, so I ran down there.
As it turned out, they didn't *really* have the TP sensor, just the
EGR one. So I plunked down my 28 bucks, and headed to the next parts
place. Got the TP sensor there ($45) came home and when there was a
break in the rain, ran out and installed all of my cool new stuff.

The bottom line is that the truck started up, ran fine and even
idled! In gear, out of gear, a/c running, it still idled. Way cool. I
drove it to work and just around a bit today, and it looks like I got
it.

So I still do not know which of the 2 parts was the culprit. Could
still have been both. I am not really inclined to put one of the old
ones back just for the sake of an experiment. At this point, I am just
glad it runs. But as the TP sensor is harder to change, and it is
ALWAYS the more difficult to get at part that is bad, Larry gets to
say "I told ya so..."

Go ahead, I can take it.

And, Larry, as to weather Gunner qualifies as "famous" or "infamous"
is a bit of semantics that I REFUSE to get in the middle of!!

Thanks again to all who responded. I appreciate your all taking the
time. like I said, you guys are awesome.

Watch your mailbox for the check for $37.50. That's right, you just
keep watching...


Al A.

OT Ford truck problem Redux...
 

"Keith Marshall" wrote in message
om...
| But I was still suspicous. I fix electrical/electronic stuff for a
| living, and have seen lots of pots measure OK but still fail in use
| due to "dead spots" in their range of motion. Particularly with these
| sort of position feedback pots that tend to spend much of their lives
| moving through only a small percentage of their range.
|
| You probably know this but I'll point it out just in case.... if you're
| using a digital meter you'll most likely miss a noisy or burned pot
because
| a digital meter updates periodically rather than continuously.
|
| An analog meter checks continuously and you'll see the needle jump all
over
| the place if the pot is noisy and you'll see it jump at burned or dead
spots
| too.
|
| Best Regards,
| Keith Marshall
|

A 9V or less battery across the end terminals and a scope on the wiper
will turn up _everything_ that you can imagine. You have to sorta turn down
your standards for pots that have seen some use, because you're essentially
pushing some carbon dust around, so if you have it on AC mode you'll see the
noise clearly.

OT Ford truck problem Redux...
 

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 03:42:21 GMT, "Keith Marshall"
wrote:

But I was still suspicous. I fix electrical/electronic stuff for a
living, and have seen lots of pots measure OK but still fail in use
due to "dead spots" in their range of motion. Particularly with these
sort of position feedback pots that tend to spend much of their lives
moving through only a small percentage of their range.

You probably know this but I'll point it out just in case.... if you're
using a digital meter you'll most likely miss a noisy or burned pot because
a digital meter updates periodically rather than continuously.

An analog meter checks continuously and you'll see the needle jump all over
the place if the pot is noisy and you'll see it jump at burned or dead spots
too.

Ive just about stopped using most DVMs, and have gone back to the old
Simpson 260s for this reason. Gate time on most DVMs is simply too
slow for a lot of this sort of trouble shooting. One of mine has an
analog bar graph along the bottom of the display..which is faster than
the digital display..but its still pretty slow to catch some
intermitants and so forth, and having to carry a meter and a logic
probe is sometimes a pain in the ass.

Gunner


Best Regards,
Keith Marshall


"I'm not grown up enough to be so old!"


"Al A." wrote in message
.. .
For starters, My apologies, Jwho, it never occured to me that I was
*bragging* by saying that I got 2 responses from the ford group.
Never looked much there before, but now that I have, I guess I WAS
bragging!


OK, here's the story...

Last night the suspense was killing me, so I went out and worked on
my truck between passing bands of rain. The OBD codes indicated that I
had trouble with either the throttle position sensor, or the EGR valve
position sensor, or both. Changing or testing the TP sensor requires
removing the throttle body, so I took it off. Pretty easy maybe a 20
minute job. I also took off the EGR position sensor, snapping off one
of the 8-32 screws that hold it on. Blah. Soft, cheesey screw, drilled
out and cleaned up the threads pretty easily (metalworking content, no
longer OT. Heh). Brought both into shop where it was not raining and I
had light.

The idle air valve came off with the throttle body, so I took it off.
It looked pretty clean inside, resistance tested OK, and the plunger
opened when I jazzed it with 12V. I deemed it vindicated.

The EGR sensor test outlined in the manual called for some voltage
tests in the vehicle, key on, engine off. It was raining out again,
and I was sick of getting wet. I did an ohmmeter test. It appears to
be a simple 3 wire pot, whose wiper is actuated by a plunger thing
that rests on the EGR valve diaphram. It "looked like" it was working
OK, but that was not the offical test, and I did not know what the
correct resistance should be.

I tested the TP sensor according to the info from the Autozone site,
a basic resistance test of what also appears to be a pot. It tested OK
too.

But I was still suspicous. I fix electrical/electronic stuff for a
living, and have seen lots of pots measure OK but still fail in use
due to "dead spots" in their range of motion. Particularly with these
sort of position feedback pots that tend to spend much of their lives
moving through only a small percentage of their range. Those can be
difficult to find with an ohmmeter. So I called the local autozone
place, they checked and said the had both parts, so I ran down there.
As it turned out, they didn't *really* have the TP sensor, just the
EGR one. So I plunked down my 28 bucks, and headed to the next parts
place. Got the TP sensor there ($45) came home and when there was a
break in the rain, ran out and installed all of my cool new stuff.

The bottom line is that the truck started up, ran fine and even
idled! In gear, out of gear, a/c running, it still idled. Way cool. I
drove it to work and just around a bit today, and it looks like I got
it.

So I still do not know which of the 2 parts was the culprit. Could
still have been both. I am not really inclined to put one of the old
ones back just for the sake of an experiment. At this point, I am just
glad it runs. But as the TP sensor is harder to change, and it is
ALWAYS the more difficult to get at part that is bad, Larry gets to
say "I told ya so..."

Go ahead, I can take it.

And, Larry, as to weather Gunner qualifies as "famous" or "infamous"
is a bit of semantics that I REFUSE to get in the middle of!!

Thanks again to all who responded. I appreciate your all taking the
time. like I said, you guys are awesome.

Watch your mailbox for the check for $37.50. That's right, you just
keep watching...


Al A.


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

OT Ford truck problem Redux...
 

"Al A." wrote in message
...
For starters, My apologies, Jwho, it never occured to me that I was
*bragging* by saying that I got 2 responses from the ford group.
Never looked much there before, but now that I have, I guess I WAS
bragging!


OK, here's the story...

Last night the suspense was killing me, so I went out and worked on
my truck between passing bands of rain. The OBD codes indicated that I
had trouble with either the throttle position sensor, or the EGR valve
position sensor, or both. Changing or testing the TP sensor requires
removing the throttle body, so I took it off. Pretty easy maybe a 20
minute job. I also took off the EGR position sensor, snapping off one
of the 8-32 screws that hold it on. Blah. Soft, cheesey screw, drilled
out and cleaned up the threads pretty easily (metalworking content, no
longer OT. Heh). Brought both into shop where it was not raining and I
had light.

The idle air valve came off with the throttle body, so I took it off.
It looked pretty clean inside, resistance tested OK, and the plunger
opened when I jazzed it with 12V. I deemed it vindicated.

The EGR sensor test outlined in the manual called for some voltage
tests in the vehicle, key on, engine off. It was raining out again,
and I was sick of getting wet. I did an ohmmeter test. It appears to
be a simple 3 wire pot, whose wiper is actuated by a plunger thing
that rests on the EGR valve diaphram. It "looked like" it was working
OK, but that was not the offical test, and I did not know what the
correct resistance should be.

I tested the TP sensor according to the info from the Autozone site,
a basic resistance test of what also appears to be a pot. It tested OK
too.

But I was still suspicous. I fix electrical/electronic stuff for a
living, and have seen lots of pots measure OK but still fail in use
due to "dead spots" in their range of motion. Particularly with these
sort of position feedback pots that tend to spend much of their lives
moving through only a small percentage of their range. Those can be
difficult to find with an ohmmeter. So I called the local autozone
place, they checked and said the had both parts, so I ran down there.
As it turned out, they didn't *really* have the TP sensor, just the
EGR one. So I plunked down my 28 bucks, and headed to the next parts
place. Got the TP sensor there ($45) came home and when there was a
break in the rain, ran out and installed all of my cool new stuff.

The bottom line is that the truck started up, ran fine and even
idled! In gear, out of gear, a/c running, it still idled. Way cool. I
drove it to work and just around a bit today, and it looks like I got
it.

So I still do not know which of the 2 parts was the culprit. Could
still have been both. I am not really inclined to put one of the old
ones back just for the sake of an experiment. At this point, I am just
glad it runs. But as the TP sensor is harder to change, and it is
ALWAYS the more difficult to get at part that is bad, Larry gets to
say "I told ya so..."

Go ahead, I can take it.

And, Larry, as to weather Gunner qualifies as "famous" or "infamous"
is a bit of semantics that I REFUSE to get in the middle of!!

Thanks again to all who responded. I appreciate your all taking the
time. like I said, you guys are awesome.

Watch your mailbox for the check for $37.50. That's right, you just
keep watching...


Al A.


It's because of people like you that 8 out of 10 Ford trucks are still on
the road! Hats off for fixing that thing.

BTW, the other 2 Fords actually made it home. :)

DVM vs. analog (was, "OT Ford truck problem Redux...")
 

Gunner wrote:

Ive just about stopped using most DVMs, and have gone back to the old
Simpson 260s for this reason. Gate time on most DVMs is simply too
slow for a lot of this sort of trouble shooting. One of mine has an
analog bar graph along the bottom of the display..which is faster than
the digital display..but its still pretty slow to catch some
intermitants and so forth, and having to carry a meter and a logic
probe is sometimes a pain in the ass.

Gunner

That's why I keep an inexpensive analog meter in my shop along with my digital.

GWE

OT Ford truck problem Redux...
 

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:23:45 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Al
A. quickly quoth:

For starters, My apologies, Jwho, it never occured to me that I was
*bragging* by saying that I got 2 responses from the ford group.
Never looked much there before, but now that I have, I guess I WAS
bragging!


OK, here's the story...
--snip--
But I was still suspicous. I fix electrical/electronic stuff for a
living, and have seen lots of pots measure OK but still fail in use
due to "dead spots" in their range of motion. Particularly with these
sort of position feedback pots that tend to spend much of their lives
moving through only a small percentage of their range. Those can be
difficult to find with an ohmmeter. So I called the local autozone
place, they checked and said the had both parts, so I ran down there.
As it turned out, they didn't *really* have the TP sensor, just the
EGR one. So I plunked down my 28 bucks, and headed to the next parts
place. Got the TP sensor there ($45) came home and when there was a
break in the rain, ran out and installed all of my cool new stuff.

The bottom line is that the truck started up, ran fine and even
idled! In gear, out of gear, a/c running, it still idled. Way cool. I
drove it to work and just around a bit today, and it looks like I got
it.

Mine did, too, after the diag. shop guys checked it out. 3 days
later it screwed up again so I hit the wrecking yard. Fixed!


So I still do not know which of the 2 parts was the culprit. Could
still have been both. I am not really inclined to put one of the old
ones back just for the sake of an experiment. At this point, I am just
glad it runs. But as the TP sensor is harder to change, and it is
ALWAYS the more difficult to get at part that is bad, Larry gets to
say "I told ya so..."

Excellent! g


And, Larry, as to weather Gunner qualifies as "famous" or "infamous"
is a bit of semantics that I REFUSE to get in the middle of!!

Aw, yer just a wuss who splits his infinitives, Al. ;)


Thanks again to all who responded. I appreciate your all taking the
time. like I said, you guys are awesome.

Watch your mailbox for the check for $37.50. That's right, you just
keep watching...

I will, with baited breath. (Something smells fishy about that.)


================================================== ============
Like peace and quiet? Buy a phoneless cord.
http://www/diversify.com/stees.html Hilarious T-shirts online
================================================== ============

OT Ford truck problem Redux...
 

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:32:50 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:



I am aware of the limitations of DVMs. I, too, use a simpson 260 and
an old Triplett to backup my Fluke DVM's. I cut my teeth on a 260,
there is still something oddly satasfying about using it.

I sometimes use the scope&battery test at work. I was just too lazy
to get out the scope (located in a different part of the house, our
bedroom!) for this occasion. I was just aggrivated enough over having
a dead truck to decide to just buy the darn part and be done with it.

I was not even aware that I had infinitives to split, Larry. But if
you say so...

thanks again, All!

-AL A.