On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 00:12:07 GMT, Gary Brady
wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip
You know, Harold, I've always despised paying into Social Security,
because I've long realized what a bad deal it is, ....
snip
except in comparison to most corporate defined benefit pension
plans.... under worst case scenerios SS will have the ability to
pay 70% of what they owe in 50 years, which is a lot better than
nothing.
Uncle George
---------------------
Well, Unc, I've had my own plan since 1987. It's called saving and
investing. If I take my SS statement and extrapolate it at the same
rate that my own plan has grown, I would *own* 3 times as much money as
I have paid in to SS. That's how bad their plan is. Taking care of
yourself beats SS and the pension plans hands down in my book.
================================================== ========
Congratulations on successful financial planning and
implementation. I hope that you have your investments
diversified and in "safe havens."

In many cases, when evaluating social security as an investment
the insurance component is overlooked. Social Security provides
some minimal coverage for your dependents while the typical
savings and investment plans do not. When this feature is
considered, for example by factoring in the premium cost of
compariable insurance, the total return on social Security looks
much better.

An additional problem is the increasing frequency of highly
sophisticated scams. For example, when one of the last big S&L
collapses occurred, many people lost their entire investments
because they had shifted into the S&Ls C.D.s paying 1/2 point
more interest. It was only after the 'ship hit the sand' these
investors learned that what they bought were not 'Certificates of
Deposit' covered by the FDIC, but 'Charlie's Derivatives" named
in honor of the Ray Charles song "Born to lose" with no backing
or guarantee of any kind. [I made the Ray Charles part up.]

I have had my 401k money invested in mutual funds that I thought
were at least honest, although they did have slightly low
returns. It was only much later that I learned these funds were
engaging in "late-trading" with preferred customers, thereby
skimming my profits. When I "cashed out," the plans took an
extended period of time for "signature verification," which cost
me almost a 1,000$ because of a fall in the share values between
the time I started the redemption process and got my money.
While I can't prove it, I am sure that if the market had gone up,
I would have gotten the share prices for the exact second I
started the redemption process. Someone is making money on a
sure thing.

Don't take any wooden nickles.

Uncle George

In article , F. George McDuffee
says...

I have had my 401k money invested in mutual funds that I thought
were at least honest, although they did have slightly low
returns. It was only much later that I learned these funds were
engaging in "late-trading" with preferred customers, thereby
skimming my profits.

Stories like this one make it abundantly clear why a) the financial
world was slather at the mouth to have social security privatized,
and b) why that plan crashed and burned as rapidly as it did,
in spite of all the push by the folks hired to see it implimented.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

F. George McDuffee wrote:

Don't take any wooden nickles.

Uncle George

Heh. One of my dad's sayings, too.


--
Gary Brady
Austin, TX
www.powdercoatoven.4t.com

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 02:29:15 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Eric R Snow wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 21:47:48 GMT, "Emmo" wrote:

We just didn't know what the consequences were going to be...

Back in 1982, when I got out of business school as a newly minted MBA, it
was very clear to me that making textiles and shoes in lower cost countries
was the right thing to do for all kinds of reasons. Now, 23 years later,
having spent all that time in the software industry, I have fallen victim to
the same process.

I have been out of work for nearly two years. The software industry is
virtually dead in this country, unless you work for Microsoft. Just spoke
with a partner in a law firm that has started sending all of their
para-legal work to India as well. Tax returns are being processed there,
and insurance forms. I recently posted what to me is an amazing fact - there
are more English speakers in India than there are in the U.S., and many of
them are quite skilled in coding, tax, and legal work. There is a zero
incremental communications cost, and the time difference actually adds to
efficiencies, as the work is being done while we are sleeping, i.e. a day
faster than it could be done in the U.S., never mind the incredible cost
savings.

I am stuck. I have spent most of my savings from the good years, I am in
the process of selling my house, and I am searching for something else to do
for the next 16 years, (I am 51), until I can collect all that Social
Security that is waiting for me ha!...

I am a smart guy, but I see no way out for myself, nor for the country as a
whole... We are the next England... I certainly don't see any role for the
government in changing any of this, other than making things worse...


Greetings Emmo,
I find you post to be somewhat ironic. I started the machinist trainee
thread. I had to fire the trainee because of poor attendance. But I
still want to train someone, maybe lots of someones, to be
metalworkers. Since you are posting to a metalworking newsgroup why
not use your talent to make something out of metal and sell it?
Really. As a smart guy I'm sure if you look around you will find a
product that is not being made. Could be welding on lawnmower decks.
Or welding statues. Maybe custom iron fences and gates. Never mind
about the custom iron work. That's why I bought that plasma cutter.
The key though is manufacturing. Software is cheap to do anywhere in
the world. Almost no expensive tooling. And practically no shipping
cost. And even though everything is being made in China now it doesn't
make econimic sense for tiny run jobs. Like a set of custom gates with
the silhouette of the owner's poodle cut out of a sheet of steel and
beaten with a hammer so that it looks like wrought iron. Make stuff
that is too expensive to make one off in another area and shipped to
the final user destination.
ERS

Have you looked at the stuff coming from China lately? Relatively low
cost stuff that is also heavy, the kind of thing you would expect would
be cheaper to make here than to ship here from China.

I just bought a home gym setup (Weider 4250) on sale for $299 (regular
$399). Shipping weight is listed as 239# and it ships in three boxes. So
for about $1.25 per pound this thing was cut, welded, painted, packaged,
shipped and then had retail processing and markup. How the hell can a US
manufacturer compete with that?

On a related note, the Weider 4250 is quite a value if you have the room
for it. I know most of these things end up collecting dust in a basement
or garage, but I'm in the unique position of working from home full time
so I get a lot of opportunities to spend a few minutes exercising, which
I need since I'm otherwise sitting in front of a computer all day.

Pete C.
That's why it needs to be something with a small enough demand that
it's not worthwhile to make in China and ship over here. Like custom
gates. I don't know where the point of break-even is for shipping from
China is, but I think it's relatively small. That's why a small local
demand will work only if it is small enough. But I'm sure that a niche
can be found. And catering to those with the money is the way to go. I
make a product that I ship all over the USA. Maybe $5000.00 per year
total sales. All the materials that go into this product are produced
in the USA. But material prices are going up because oil is going up.
And even though the plastic is produced in the USA the oil it's made
from could come from anywhere. I could lower prices if I bought
materials from overseas but I want to keep jobs here. If a cheaper
copy comes out from China I will probably lose some business. But not
much. The people who will buy the cheap Chinese product wouldn't buy
my more expensive product anyway. So I don't try to compete with
China. I just try to make things that China isn't interested in.
ERS

In article , Eric R Snow says...

... So I don't try to compete with
China. I just try to make things that China isn't interested in.

And as a corollary, you make the kind of stuff that, folks
who avoid purchasing chinese goods, make a concious effort
to buy.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 20 Nov 2005 14:37:52 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Eric R Snow says...

... So I don't try to compete with
China. I just try to make things that China isn't interested in.

And as a corollary, you make the kind of stuff that, folks
who avoid purchasing chinese goods, make a concious effort
to buy.

Jim
That's right Jim. It limits your customer base. But it seems to me
that if a person tries hard enough even a relatively small number of
potential customers can provide a decent income. Right now China is
doing things that keep their goods cheaper than they would be if we
really had free trade. Our trade policies, and theirs, prevent this
now. I'm no economist and so can't speak with authority though. At
this time it is very hard to find goods made in countries that pay
their employees well. More and more I find products that were made in
the USA a year or so ago are now being made in China or India. What
can you do then? I try to then to buy a similar product that's not
made in China. Or try to find a used one on ebay. I'm pretty sure that
many of my customers do the same thing.
ERS

jim rozen wrote:

And there seems to be some resonance likewise, about the issue of
short-term ROI by these companies. Seems like the most often-heard
justification for shutting down manufacturing in the US is "but if
we don't do it, then our competitors will, and they'll take all our


Buick is making money in China because the cars sell for a premium price
in China. Marketing, y'know. It costs about 5% more to make a Regal in
China than in Flint.


Kevin Gallimore

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F. George McDuffee wrote:

and herein lies the tale.... For at least the last 50 years the
American public education systems have been geared to producing
an organizational man that will be 'productive' [only] in large
organizations with no effort [and in some cases discouragment] to
suggest self-employment. For people that like order, stability
and continuity [like politicians and educators] the self-employed
are a cramp ITA because they are always trying something new and
ask too many questions, such as 'what's in it for me."

I don't have a solution to this.


I will put in a word for my kid's school. One of the aims of the
founders was to foster an entrepeneural spirit.

http://www.olin.edu/on.asp


Kevin Gallimore






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Emmo wrote On 11/18/05 13:47,:
We just didn't know what the consequences were going to be...

Back in 1982, when I got out of business school as a newly minted MBA, it
was very clear to me that making textiles and shoes in lower cost countries
was the right thing to do for all kinds of reasons. Now, 23 years later,
having spent all that time in the software industry, I have fallen victim to
the same process.

I have been out of work for nearly two years. The software industry is
virtually dead in this country, unless you work for Microsoft. Just spoke
with a partner in a law firm that has started sending all of their
para-legal work to India as well. Tax returns are being processed there,
and insurance forms. I recently posted what to me is an amazing fact - there
are more English speakers in India than there are in the U.S., and many of
them are quite skilled in coding, tax, and legal work. There is a zero
incremental communications cost, and the time difference actually adds to
efficiencies, as the work is being done while we are sleeping, i.e. a day
faster than it could be done in the U.S., never mind the incredible cost
savings.

I am stuck. I have spent most of my savings from the good years, I am in
the process of selling my house, and I am searching for something else to do
for the next 16 years, (I am 51), until I can collect all that Social
Security that is waiting for me ha!...

I am a smart guy, but I see no way out for myself, nor for the country as a
whole... We are the next England... I certainly don't see any role for the
government in changing any of this, other than making things worse..

This was a really whiny diatribe that deserves rebuttal. I'm a software engineer,
and have been for 30 years now. I have never worked for Microsoft. I am not
Indian. I'm not even degreed. I'm only 2 years younger than you. By all of your
criteria I shouldn't have a job.

The reality is that I have never had a significant period of unemployment that
was due to much more than me being picky about my positions and wanting to
take a break between significant jobs. And I consider "significant" to be
6 months. In the past 15 years, I have never been unemployed more than once,
since I went from working at one place to another without a break. Similarly,
I haven't taken a pay cut in the last 15 years, either. Not even in moving
from position to position.

Of course, here in the Silicon Valley, just after 2000 or so, I know several
programmers who were unemployed, and some decided to move away because of that.
In every case I know of there were reasons. Some were managers expecting to
get their old, and very high, salaries. Some were doing little or nothing to
update their skills or shift specialties.

The software industry certainly did suffer from a massive case of "pile on".
During the boom years, the colleges were ****ting programmers, and I interviewed
countless new grads. Most of them couldn't find their ass with two hands, and we
knew it. The competition for even mildly competent programmers was fierce, and
we had to figure on getting someone we could train. To do this, you grade for
interest and enthusiasm. I.e., you look for people who like engineering, and
are going to be good at it. If I saw someone applying for work as an engineer
who had an MBA, that would go to stack "B", since that person clearly had
no interest in engineering other than as a stepping stone to become one of
my many overbearing bosses.

Programmers in the USA want to BITCH mostly. "Oh, Indian engineers are taking
our jobs". Well, now the job market is a bit tighter, and guess what ? A lot
of the Indian engineers left, just as you wanted them to, AND TOOK THEIR JOBS
HOME WITH THEM. You got what you asked for, unless of course you want everything
and a blow job thrown in. Good luck.

What has happened is that the masses of half assed programmers with knowledge
as shallow as a pizza pan, who thought they should get 6 figures for knowing how
to put a perl script together got the boot. Guess what. You can quit whining,
get some real knowledge for a change (hint: if you don't know how a compiler
or an operating system works, forget it), or you can find a new line of work.

The computer business generated fabulous wealth and jobs back in the 90's. And
everyone and their grandma got a job, often only masquerading as a programmer
long enough to climb into management. Now the tree has shaken out, but I'll bet
there is still much greater employment for software professionals than at the
start of the 1990's.

Me ? I'll always have a job if I want one. The only difference is that in
the boom years, I'll get a job with a growing company, and in the down years,
I'll be getting YOUR job.

Scott Moore.

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , John Chase
says...

In essence, you performed "involuntary servitude", as prohibited by
USConst.
Amdt. XIII.

This is the *biggest* line of horse**** propogated here in
recent times.

Unless you are willing to say that paying *any* income tax is likewise
the same involuntary servitude. g

Consider it said.

-jc-

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

I bitched and moaned about SS for years, but now that I'm drawing a little
of it back, the pain has subsided. I can only hope that for those that
have contributed that there will still be something available. None of
us
should get ripped off by a system that was doomed to failure from day one.
To me, it appears to be nothing more than a pyramid scheme.

Precisely!

Another way to look at it is that it's a government-run chain letter.

-jc-