I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy the
more expensive it gets

so I thought would it be possible to make my own in a crucible by mixing
scrap stainless, mild steel and a measured amount of powdered graphite to up
the carbon content

anyone got any idea if this could work?

TIA

George

George Watson wrote:
I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy the
more expensive it gets

so I thought would it be possible to make my own in a crucible by mixing
scrap stainless, mild steel and a measured amount of powdered graphite to up
the carbon content

anyone got any idea if this could work?

Sure, once you've got the appropriate crucible, furnace, temperature
controller, exact specs of the alloy you require and your ingredients,
it's almost trivial.

almost trivial.

much like income taxes =)


"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
George Watson wrote:
I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy the
more expensive it gets

so I thought would it be possible to make my own in a crucible by
mixing
scrap stainless, mild steel and a measured amount of powdered graphite
to up
the carbon content

anyone got any idea if this could work?

Sure, once you've got the appropriate crucible, furnace, temperature
controller, exact specs of the alloy you require and your ingredients,
it's almost trivial.

"George Watson" wrote in message
...
I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy the
more expensive it gets

so I thought would it be possible to make my own in a crucible by mixing
scrap stainless, mild steel and a measured amount of powdered graphite to
up
the carbon content

anyone got any idea if this could work?

Yes, and the idea is "no." They don't mix alloy steels that way. There is an
order, and there are fluxes (some constituents are pellets coated like M&M's
with fluxing and intersolute materials). They don't use scrap to make tool
steel. There is a lot of metallurgical control required to make anything
worthwhile.

Without remelt capabilities (electroslag or vacuum-arc remelt; don't even
consider it), the quality you could produce would be so much lower than any
European- or American-made tool steel that it wouldn't be worthwhile. You'd
be competing with China at the junk end of the scale.

Sorry to sound so discouraging, but you're barking up the wrong tree. Why
don't you consider getting a bunch of people together to buy in some
quantity?

Ed Huntress

George Watson wrote:

I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy the
more expensive it gets

I make a lot of tools from old car/truck springs both leaf and coil.
Easy to anneal, machine, grind, forge, harden and temper.

Ted

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news
Without remelt capabilities (electroslag or vacuum-arc remelt; don't even
consider it), the quality you could produce would be so much lower than
any
European- or American-made tool steel that it wouldn't be worthwhile.

But not necessarily not worth trying...
Could do it the way they did in the 1700s - take mild steel bars (they
used wrought iron), chop them up into 1/4" cubes, rods, whatever, bury
in charcoal and heat for a few days to give a good thick case hardening
on the stuff, then melt in a crucible furnace (yes you can melt steel
with coal or charcoal). Hopefully the center will still be soft and
mild, while the outer layer will be near cast iron in carbon content;
when these melt together, you get something inbetween.

Begs the question, why didn't they just take wrought and a little cast
iron, melt the one and pour the other into it. Maybe they couldn't
get it quite hot enough to melt the nearly-pure steel. (What a difference
just 100°F makes!) Or they didn't make the connection.. but this was
still going on during the 19th century when they had the chemistry.
And then Bessemer came along...

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news
Without remelt capabilities (electroslag or vacuum-arc remelt; don't
even
consider it), the quality you could produce would be so much lower than
any
European- or American-made tool steel that it wouldn't be worthwhile.

But not necessarily not worth trying...
Could do it the way they did in the 1700s - take mild steel bars (they
used wrought iron), chop them up into 1/4" cubes, rods, whatever, bury
in charcoal and heat for a few days to give a good thick case hardening
on the stuff, then melt in a crucible furnace (yes you can melt steel
with coal or charcoal). Hopefully the center will still be soft and
mild, while the outer layer will be near cast iron in carbon content;
when these melt together, you get something inbetween.

Begs the question, why didn't they just take wrought and a little cast
iron, melt the one and pour the other into it. Maybe they couldn't
get it quite hot enough to melt the nearly-pure steel. (What a difference
just 100°F makes!) Or they didn't make the connection.. but this was
still going on during the 19th century when they had the chemistry.
And then Bessemer came along...

If the idea is to recreate the processes that produced the tool steels of
the 19th century, then have at it. If the idea is to save money by making
your own tool steel, and if you're comparing it with a modern tool steel,
then it ain't gonna happen.

Those experiments are fun and satisfying. But I got the impression that the
poster was just trying to save money.

Ed Huntress

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
George Watson wrote:

I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy the
more expensive it gets

I make a lot of tools from old car/truck springs both leaf and coil.
Easy to anneal, machine, grind, forge, harden and temper.

Ted

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool steels of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily rely on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have no iron in
their makeup.

Precipitation hardening steels are a good example of steels that don't
exclusively rely on carbon for hardness. Are you familiar with Vasco-Max?
Vasco-Max 350 is capable of tensile strength of 350,000 PSI. Try getting
that out of carbon steel.

I agree with Ed, trying to duplicate super alloy tool steels of today in
order to save a few bucks is insanity. Doing it for fun, on the other
hand, would be an interesting experience, one that would give the
experimenter tremendous respect for those that are making fine quality tool
steels with reliable characteristics using modern technology and
sophisticated equipment. Some things are best left to those with
knowledge and proper tooling, particularly for analysis in process to
control the end result.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Harold

George Watson wrote:

I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy the
more expensive it gets

If you are ordering from the tool supply houses, the price is extremely high.
You can get a better price directly from the tool steel houses, but you need
quantity.
I bought 500lbs of A-2 last week for about 75 cents a pound.
Some of the tool steel houses will sell remnants cheap.
I try to keep at least a 1000lbs of tool steel on hand at all times. I have an
aversion to paying full price and am always on the lookout for deals.
Tough to find a deal on a small quantity.

I remember buying a length of S-7 hollow bar that had a shipping sticker from
from McMaster-Carr on it. From Mc-M it would have cost $140. I paid $20 for it.
You just gotta get out there and dig for the deals.

Les

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:32:34 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
I make a lot of tools from old car/truck springs both leaf and coil.
Easy to anneal, machine, grind, forge, harden and temper.

Ted

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool steels of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily rely on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have no iron in
their makeup.

No iron?

Gary

"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:32:34 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool steels
of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily rely on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have no iron
in
their makeup.

No iron?

Gary

I offer you, for example, Haynes Stellite, which is iron free. It is
comprised of chromium, cobalt and tungsten.

Harold

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:32:34 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool
steels
of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily
rely on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have
no iron
in
their makeup.

No iron?

Gary

I offer you, for example, Haynes Stellite, which is iron free. It
is
comprised of chromium, cobalt and tungsten.

Harold



I would submit then that it is not steel. Very useful material but not
steel. Haynes Internation, the manufacture, never refers to it as
steel on their history page:
http://www.haynesintl.com/Historypage/History.htm

Good reading on this page. I never knew that Hastelloy was an
acronym, that begame a word.

Jeff

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

I offer you, for example, Haynes Stellite, which is iron free. It is
comprised of chromium, cobalt and tungsten.

Are you sure it can be called "steel" if it doesnt have iron and some carbon
in it?

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

I offer you, for example, Haynes Stellite, which is iron free. It is
comprised of chromium, cobalt and tungsten.

Aside from the aforementioned 'mahogany pistons' I think
the comment was more along the lines of, 'steel' is often
defined as having iron as a constitutent. Stellite
might be a perfectly fine cutting tool, but like the
cemented carbides (tungsten, cobalt, carbon) it had no
iron and as such might be excluded from the 'tool steel'
designation on that basis alone.

The cemented carbides are not considered tool steel, so
I would propose that stellite might also not be.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:32:34 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool
steels
of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily rely
on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have no
iron
in
their makeup.

No iron?

Gary

I offer you, for example, Haynes Stellite, which is iron free. It is
comprised of chromium, cobalt and tungsten.

Harold



Ah, terminology, terminology. Stellite isn't steel, Harold. It's a
superalloy.

What's in a name? g Anyway, it needs iron and carbon in it to be steel.
Some superalloys contain iron, but they're mostly alloys of nickel,
chromium, cobalt, etc.

Ed Huntress

"Jeffrey Lindemuth" wrote in message
...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:32:34 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool
steels
of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily
rely on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have
no iron
in
their makeup.

No iron?

Gary

I offer you, for example, Haynes Stellite, which is iron free. It
is
comprised of chromium, cobalt and tungsten.

Harold



I would submit then that it is not steel. Very useful material but not
steel. Haynes Internation, the manufacture, never refers to it as
steel on their history page:
http://www.haynesintl.com/Historypage/History.htm

Good reading on this page. I never knew that Hastelloy was an
acronym, that begame a word.

Jeff

Agreed. Not steel as such, but commonly used as tool steel before tungsten
carbide became so popular. The point is that "tool steel" doesn't
necessarily contain iron, no more than an iron found in a women's list of
household tools does. I suggest that type of iron is made of aluminum.

I think that, for the most part, all of us know and understand that steel is
an alloy of iron and carbon in which the carbon is dissolved in the iron, it
is not found in a free state, such as it is in gray or ductile iron.

Harold

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
t...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:32:34 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool
steels
of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily
rely
on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have no
iron
in
their makeup.

No iron?

Gary

I offer you, for example, Haynes Stellite, which is iron free. It is
comprised of chromium, cobalt and tungsten.

Harold



Ah, terminology, terminology. Stellite isn't steel, Harold. It's a
superalloy.

What's in a name? g Anyway, it needs iron and carbon in it to be steel.
Some superalloys contain iron, but they're mostly alloys of nickel,
chromium, cobalt, etc.

Ed Huntress

Carbon in SOLUTION, to be exact, not just carbon. Yep, I know that, just
as you know that Stellite tool bits are commonly referred to as tool steel.
You know, like aluminum irons. Makes no sense, but we still say it.

:-)
Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Carbon in SOLUTION, to be exact, not just carbon. Yep, I know that, just
as you know that Stellite tool bits are commonly referred to as tool steel.
You know, like aluminum irons. Makes no sense, but we still say it.

So it's OK to call carbide inserts tool steel?

Of course not!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

Ah, terminology, terminology. Stellite isn't steel, Harold. It's a
superalloy.

What's in a name? g Anyway, it needs iron and carbon in it to be
steel.
Some superalloys contain iron, but they're mostly alloys of nickel,
chromium, cobalt, etc.

Ed Huntress

Carbon in SOLUTION, to be exact, not just carbon. Yep, I know that,
just
as you know that Stellite tool bits are commonly referred to as tool
steel.
You know, like aluminum irons. Makes no sense, but we still say it.

In 30 years in the business, I've never heard of Stellite tool bits referred
to as "tool steel." Jargon and terminology vary all over the industry, like
the names of sunfish to fishermen, but that's one that's escaped me.

Usually, they just call it Stellite. In the aerospace industry, it's
recognized as a superalloy.

Ed Huntress

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Carbon in SOLUTION, to be exact, not just carbon. Yep, I know that,
just
as you know that Stellite tool bits are commonly referred to as tool
steel.
You know, like aluminum irons. Makes no sense, but we still say it.

So it's OK to call carbide inserts tool steel?

Of course not!

Jim

I agree, and I've never encountered that, but I still hear the term iron
when used for the device women used to use before women's lib.

Harold

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
t...
"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

Ah, terminology, terminology. Stellite isn't steel, Harold. It's a
superalloy.

What's in a name? g Anyway, it needs iron and carbon in it to be
steel.
Some superalloys contain iron, but they're mostly alloys of nickel,
chromium, cobalt, etc.

Ed Huntress

Carbon in SOLUTION, to be exact, not just carbon. Yep, I know that,
just
as you know that Stellite tool bits are commonly referred to as tool
steel.
You know, like aluminum irons. Makes no sense, but we still say it.

In 30 years in the business, I've never heard of Stellite tool bits
referred
to as "tool steel." Jargon and terminology vary all over the industry,
like
the names of sunfish to fishermen, but that's one that's escaped me.

Most likely because it has disappeared from the scene (in the way of
toolbits, that is), thanks to carbide replacing it.

Usually, they just call it Stellite. In the aerospace industry, it's
recognized as a superalloy.

I have no quarrel with that, Ed, because it is rarely used as a cutting tool
anymore, it makes more sense when you look at it that way. As you said,
"Ah, terminology, terminology". I recognize that it is not steel, that was
my point in posting what I did. Many of our terms are used improperly.
This was an example. The way I see it, any die or cutting material is
commonly referred to as "tool steel", including medium to high carbon steel.

Harold

Wayne Bengtsson wrote:

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

I offer you, for example, Haynes Stellite, which is iron free. It is
comprised of chromium, cobalt and tungsten.

Are you sure it can be called "steel" if it doesnt have iron and some carbon
in it?

What about some industrial diamonds?
Got Iron and Carbon, gotta be steel.

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool steels of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily rely on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have no iron in
their makeup.

So? If I can pick up an old spring (which, incidently, is not just a
simple carbon steel) and make a usefull and serviceable tool from it,
why should I care whether it's a "modern high quality tool steel" by
somebody elses criteria? It all depends on the application.

Precipitation hardening steels are a good example of steels that don't
exclusively rely on carbon for hardness. Are you familiar with Vasco-Max?
Vasco-Max 350 is capable of tensile strength of 350,000 PSI. Try getting
that out of carbon steel.

OK. But so what? See above. I'm not familiar with the steel you
mention but do you know what the max tensile of the steel used in
car/truck springs is? Does it matter for many applications e.g. making
a counter bore to refurbish a brass valve seat?

I agree with Ed, trying to duplicate super alloy tool steels of today in
order to save a few bucks is insanity. Doing it for fun, on the other
hand, would be an interesting experience, one that would give the
experimenter tremendous respect for those that are making fine quality tool
steels with reliable characteristics using modern technology and
sophisticated equipment.

I'm with you there on both counts but I have made a number of tools from
much lesser steels all of which have done their jobs. Why should I care
if some exotic steel could have been run at five times the speed?

Some things are best left to those with
knowledge and proper tooling,

Or those who wish to learn.

Ted

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool steels
of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily rely
on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have no iron
in
their makeup.

So? If I can pick up an old spring (which, incidently, is not just a
simple carbon steel) and make a usefull and serviceable tool from it,
why should I care whether it's a "modern high quality tool steel" by
somebody elses criteria? It all depends on the application.

The steel in car springs is pretty damned good steel, Ted. That IS modern
high-quality steel. There's no way you could come within a country mile of
that quality by cooking up something in a crucible out of scrap, which was
the idea being suggested.



Precipitation hardening steels are a good example of steels that don't
exclusively rely on carbon for hardness. Are you familiar with
Vasco-Max?
Vasco-Max 350 is capable of tensile strength of 350,000 PSI. Try
getting
that out of carbon steel.

OK. But so what? See above. I'm not familiar with the steel you
mention but do you know what the max tensile of the steel used in
car/truck springs is? Does it matter for many applications e.g. making
a counter bore to refurbish a brass valve seat?

I agree with Ed, trying to duplicate super alloy tool steels of today
in
order to save a few bucks is insanity. Doing it for fun, on the other
hand, would be an interesting experience, one that would give the
experimenter tremendous respect for those that are making fine quality
tool
steels with reliable characteristics using modern technology and
sophisticated equipment.

I'm with you there on both counts but I have made a number of tools from
much lesser steels all of which have done their jobs. Why should I care
if some exotic steel could have been run at five times the speed?

Once again, the point was that tool steel is expensive to buy in small
quantities. Tool steel is pretty exotic stuff; even the simple W-series
steels require good metallurgical control to make.

You seem to be making the point that you don't need tool steel to make good
tools. That's certainly true. But the poster was asking about tool steel. If
you just want steel to make tools, then the first question is, what kind of
tools?


Some things are best left to those with
knowledge and proper tooling,

Or those who wish to learn.

There's a lot to that. However, making tool steel in a crucible at home is
something like building your own refrigeration plant from scratch, without
knowing anything about how it works. g It can be done and you can learn it
but learning to make real tool steel, even crappy tool steel, is nothing
like puttering around.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
t...
"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool
steels
of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily rely
on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have no
iron
in
their makeup.

So? If I can pick up an old spring (which, incidently, is not just a
simple carbon steel) and make a usefull and serviceable tool from it,
why should I care whether it's a "modern high quality tool steel" by
somebody elses criteria? It all depends on the application.

Sorta missed the point there, didn't you Ted? How does that relate to
someone making their own steel?

The steel in car springs is pretty damned good steel, Ted. That IS modern
high-quality steel. There's no way you could come within a country mile of
that quality by cooking up something in a crucible out of scrap, which was
the idea being suggested.

Yeah, including starting with scrap stainless if I remember correctly.
Hardly the same thing as using a coil spring from a '51 Buick.

Precipitation hardening steels are a good example of steels that don't
exclusively rely on carbon for hardness. Are you familiar with
Vasco-Max?
Vasco-Max 350 is capable of tensile strength of 350,000 PSI. Try
getting
that out of carbon steel.

OK. But so what?

The "so what" is a point of information for your benefit. If you feel
you'll never have need for such information, which you openly admit to not
knowing, ("I'm not familiar with the steel you mention"), kindly discard
it.

See above. I'm not familiar with the steel you
mention but do you know what the max tensile of the steel used in
car/truck springs is? Does it matter for many applications e.g. making
a counter bore to refurbish a brass valve seat?

Again, how does that relate to making one's own tool steel?

I agree with Ed, trying to duplicate super alloy tool steels of today
in
order to save a few bucks is insanity. Doing it for fun, on the
other
hand, would be an interesting experience, one that would give the
experimenter tremendous respect for those that are making fine quality
tool
steels with reliable characteristics using modern technology and
sophisticated equipment.

I'm with you there on both counts but I have made a number of tools from
much lesser steels all of which have done their jobs. Why should I care
if some exotic steel could have been run at five times the speed?

Would you present the same argument if you had a prolonged run and your
creation from a Chev spring didn't hold up to the task, much the same way a
HSS drill might not hold up the way a cobalt drill would in hardened steel?
I gather your suggestion would be to continue to re-invent the wheel until
you got through the job. That might work in your home shop, but industry
would be DOA if it assumed the same posture. That was the point of my
mention of the idea of making tool steel not a good one, and also why other
materials were mentioned. There are materials out there that have been
created to address particular problems that we face in manufacturing, be it
at home of in industry. Seems to me it's not such a great idea to try to
compete with metallurgists with unlimited equipment and knowledge in an
attempt to save a few bucks on material that is readily available. On
the other hand, if this gent was stranded on an island with Gilligan,
perhaps it might be a great idea.

Once again, the point was that tool steel is expensive to buy in small
quantities. Tool steel is pretty exotic stuff; even the simple W-series
steels require good metallurgical control to make.

You seem to be making the point that you don't need tool steel to make
good
tools. That's certainly true. But the poster was asking about tool steel.
If
you just want steel to make tools, then the first question is, what kind
of
tools?


Some things are best left to those with
knowledge and proper tooling,

Or those who wish to learn.

Learn what? That they failed miserably? The first problem with his
inquiry was the concept of melting in a crucible, as if one could achieve
the necessary temperatures required to melt steel in a home type crucible
furnace. Possible, but certainly not done in industry, and for many good
reasons. The person inquiring could buy one hell of a lot of tool steel
for the cost of a furnace capable of melting the sophisticated materials
without altering their physical properties. There's more to making exotic
alloys than just melting them and pouring then out in a muffin tin. Lots
more. I offer vacuum melting as an example.


There's a lot to that. However, making tool steel in a crucible at home is
something like building your own refrigeration plant from scratch, without
knowing anything about how it works. g It can be done and you can learn
it
but learning to make real tool steel, even crappy tool steel, is nothing
like puttering around.

Thanks, Ed. I rest my case. Melting these metals is not for the feint of
heart, nor is it well suited for home application aside from
experimentation. Even if one were successful in making the material, how
would one go about the rolling processes necessary to convert their billet
to something useful? Again, some things are better left to those with
proper tooling and knowledge.

You want to learn something about melting and pouring metals? Try
aluminum, and copper based alloys. They will occupy you full time for a long
time if you would like to become proficient. When you master that, perhaps
you could then tackle cast iron, which require higher temperatures, but
still a few hundred degrees lower than melting steel.

Harold

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool steels
of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily rely
on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have no iron
in
their makeup.

So? If I can pick up an old spring (which, incidently, is not just a
simple carbon steel) and make a usefull and serviceable tool from it,
why should I care whether it's a "modern high quality tool steel" by
somebody elses criteria? It all depends on the application.

Precipitation hardening steels are a good example of steels that don't
exclusively rely on carbon for hardness. Are you familiar with
Vasco-Max?
Vasco-Max 350 is capable of tensile strength of 350,000 PSI. Try
getting
that out of carbon steel.

OK. But so what? See above. I'm not familiar with the steel you
mention but do you know what the max tensile of the steel used in
car/truck springs is? Does it matter for many applications e.g. making
a counter bore to refurbish a brass valve seat?

The point that you're so conveniently overlooking is that regardless of the
material you have chosen to use for "tool steel", these are variations of
carbon steel, perhaps even state-of-the-art stuff, none of which will retain
their hardness above 700° F, a temperature you can readily achieve while
machining. That's called annealing, at least from where I came.
There's no substituting HSS and super alloys for machining by using carbon
steel, not if you're serious about machining. If that were not the case,
carbon steel cutting tools would be readily available. Think of all the
tools they could make from scrap springs! Aside from cheap taps and dies,
and perhaps cheap twist drills, carbon steel cutting tools have pretty much
disappeared from the scene, for which any of us that have worked in the
trade are thankful. I've used them, and have found that their only place
is in machining aluminum, and they aren't even well suited to that function.
You can machine a cabbage with a carrot, too, but you'd have much better
success with a hardened knife, if you get my drift. For me, machining
isn't getting by the easiest and cheapest way possible, it's applying good
and accepted machining practices to guarantee respectable and reliable
results. I can't speak for your objective.

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

There's no substituting HSS and super alloys for machining by using carbon
steel, not if you're serious about machining.

OK this weekend I took one poster's advice, and made a 5C
arbor for my boring head, to fit my milling machine spindle
directly.

I started with a hardinge 5C center - which is a solid
5C collet item, with a male center sticking out the end.
This is easy, right? Because hardinge wouldn't harden
a dead center like that. Yeah right.

That thing was through and through hard. So the first
item to the rescue was my set of carbide insert tools,
so I could shorten the end of the center. This worked
fine except for the blue steel wool coming off the part.

But then I wanted to thread the thing. Which meant I
wanted an undercut at the end to run the thread out
into, and also a carbide threading tool. Which was
not in my box of tricks.

However I did have one "black alloy" toolbit, and
remembering Harold's advice about stellite - decided
to give it a try. I ground the end into a grooving
tool to make my runout - and the thing got red hot
during the grinding. I resisted the temptation to
dunk it into the quench pot that was catching the
sparks - let it cool by itself.

the amazing part was that was able to make the
groove in a moment with this thing - it ate right
into the stuff that the carbide was complaining
about. Great I though, the threading should be
easy - and reduced the end of the grooving tool
into a threading tool with a couple of touches
on the wheel.

Well the threading operation did not go quite
as well, the end of the tool seemed to dull
rapidly and work hardened the material even
worse. I finally had to re-sharpen it, and
take all 20 thou at one whack to make it cut
rather than simply wear the end off the tool.

The threads were hardly picture perfect in the
end....

But the boring head has a more solid mount now,
and I can't wait to try it out. The black
alloy tools have a real convert here. I bought
it from MSC btw.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Hi Ted,

IIRC the original post was asking if it would be practical to make tool
steels at home for economic reasons, given the high cost of commercial
stock.

My original thought was maybe, but without heat treat ovens that can be
programmed or at least controlled manually to run the correct profiles,
how would you harden and temper it in a way that would give any better
performance than W1 or O1 type steels?

Ted Edwards wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:


Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool steels of
today are not necessarily just carbon steel and don't necessarily rely on
the carbon cycle for hardness. There are tool steels that have no iron in
their makeup.


So? If I can pick up an old spring (which, incidently, is not just a
simple carbon steel) and make a usefull and serviceable tool from it,
why should I care whether it's a "modern high quality tool steel" by
somebody elses criteria? It all depends on the application.

I doubt there are many on this list who haven't made tools from steel on
hand. Sure you can make a tool from 1095. You can use low carbon steel
and case harden it if you like. If you intend to use the tool on a
machine you'll have to run it slower, take lower chip loads, and sharpen
more often. Might or might not matter in your application. I wouldn't
bother making lathe bits from carbon or slightly more complex steels
though, M2 or 10 % cobalt tool bits are inexpensive enough in the
smaller sizes. I don't mind grinding tools, and it often seems the shop
is the hobby, but I don't want to have to regrind every couple of
minutes! HSS has one really big advantage even in the home shop - if it
gets hot it doesn't loose its temper. I've blued a few home made
cutters pushing them too far even though the cut seemed reasonable. Now
you have to reharden, temper, and grind. Maybe I'm just a wimp, but I
buy my endmills.

Precipitation hardening steels are a good example of steels that don't
exclusively rely on carbon for hardness. Are you familiar with Vasco-Max?
Vasco-Max 350 is capable of tensile strength of 350,000 PSI. Try getting
that out of carbon steel.


OK. But so what? See above. I'm not familiar with the steel you
mention but do you know what the max tensile of the steel used in
car/truck springs is? Does it matter for many applications e.g. making
a counter bore to refurbish a brass valve seat?

As above, making one off tools from drill rod, 1095, etc. is perfectly
reasonable provided the material being cut allows it. If I need a quick
and dirty one time use tool for softer materials, I'll grab W1 drill rod
and use it unhardened sometimes. Tools to last I'll make from O1 and
heat treat. I don't have the ability to heat treat HSS with any sort of
predictability or repeatability. Followed the arguments on this list
regarding HSS heat treating at home, wasted some cutter blanks testing
the results, and decided the folks saying you need more than a torch and
bucket of quench were right.

Tools for hand use or low speed applications are usually fine when made
with simpler steels, and are a good place to save a bit of money. Many
specialized hand tools are either low quality or very expensive, but not
difficult to make if you have a lathe and/or mill.

I agree with Ed, trying to duplicate super alloy tool steels of today in
order to save a few bucks is insanity. Doing it for fun, on the other
hand, would be an interesting experience, one that would give the
experimenter tremendous respect for those that are making fine quality tool
steels with reliable characteristics using modern technology and
sophisticated equipment.


I'm with you there on both counts but I have made a number of tools from
much lesser steels all of which have done their jobs. Why should I care
if some exotic steel could have been run at five times the speed?

How often do you want to have to regrind, restore profile and clearance,
and reset the tool? How long do want a simple lathe or mill job to
take? Even as a hobby, there are only so many free hours in a lifetime.
Spending them taking shallow cuts and honing the cutter every few
passes just isn't effective for me.

I love old auto and truck leaf springs, circular saw blade steel, all
the usual suspects for woodworking tools, and old bed rails make pretty
good corner chisels, but for metal cutting tools carbon steels have
limited occasion when they are preferred over more modern materials.
About the only thing that comes to mind is well made carbon steel taps
for gunsmithing such as those sold by Brownells. Sort of nice to be
able to shatter a tap that breaks off with an automatic centerpunch.

Some things are best left to those with
knowledge and proper tooling,


Or those who wish to learn.

If metallurgy and steel making is your hobby that's fine, there's room
for plenty of specialized interests around here :-) If the goal is fun,
and that's what you enjoy, do it up and post the results please. Making
clocks from half hard brass isn't real cost effective either, but it
sure is fun. You can be sure I make my gear cutters from drill rod,
ever priced Thornton cutters for horology? - even takes my breath away
and I'm used to the prices of clock and watch tools. Never have found a
"practical" application for the steam engines I've built either, but
they do make nice eye candy when running well.

Ted

Cheers,
Stan

That is one of the nice things about this use group. Diversity. I am
usually trying to find the easiest and cheapest way. But often that
is by using accepted machining practises to get reliable results.
Regardless of the approach it is all recreation for me.

Dan



"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message

For me, machining
isn't getting by the easiest and cheapest way possible, it's applying good
and accepted machining practices to guarantee respectable and reliable
results. I can't speak for your objective.

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool

So? If I can pick up an old spring (which, incidently, is not just a

Sorta missed the point there, didn't you Ted? How does that relate to
someone making their own steel?

Actually, I didn't. You and Ed did. The OP's objective was to get
lower cost tool steel. Remember?
"
I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy
the more expensive it gets so I thought would it be possible to make
my own in a crucible by ..."

The steel in car springs is pretty damned good steel, Ted. That IS modern
high-quality steel. There's no way you could come within a country mile of
that quality by cooking up something in a crucible out of scrap, which was
the idea being suggested.

Read the above. Consider the OP's objective.

The "so what" is a point of information for your benefit.

It would be if I had a use for it or if the OP did. You have wandered
far from the topic. There are many, many specialized steels of which
you pick one, probably a very expensive one, which completely misses the
point which was a desire to make tools inexpensively.

kindly discard it.

I did.

See above. I'm not familiar with the steel you
mention but do you know what the max tensile of the steel used in
car/truck springs is? Does it matter for many applications e.g. making
a counter bore to refurbish a brass valve seat?

Again, how does that relate to making one's own tool steel?

Read the original post and become informed.

Would you present the same argument if you had a prolonged run and your
creation from a Chev spring didn't hold up to the task, much the same way a
HSS drill might not hold up the way a cobalt drill would in hardened steel?

I am not in production and, from the sound of it, neither is the OP so
your comment is almost certainly irrelevent. Unfortunately some you
folk with vast production experience forget that the HSM is usually
willing to spend time instead of money and typicaly wants to make only a
few parts and will likely never use the tool again. I have a number of
such in a box in case the problem ever comes up again.

I gather your suggestion would be to continue to re-invent the wheel until
you got through the job. That might work in your home shop, but industry
would be DOA if it assumed the same posture.

How many pieces did the OP say he wished to make. Can you quote me a
price for one 6" long, 1" diameter piece of that Vasco steel you
mentioned? Does it come annealled? Can it be turned/milled with
tooling likely to be available in the typical home shop? Can it then be
hardened in my small propane fired 'smithing forge or will I have to
send it out? Where? How much will it cost? Don't forget, there is
only one piece. How long will I have to wait to get it back so I can
make the three pieces I want?

If you can't answer those questions or can't be bothered, perhaps you
should reconsider your position.

Ted

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

The point that you're so conveniently overlooking is that regardless of the
material you have chosen to use for "tool steel", these are variations of
carbon steel, perhaps even state-of-the-art stuff, none of which will retain
their hardness above 700° F, a temperature you can readily achieve while
machining.

Yes they can but "The point that you're so conveniently overlooking is
that" it is not **necessary** to run at high speeds when making one or a
few parts in a home shop. You seem to be incapable of realizing that
not every job in every place is in the "time is money" environment.

For me, machining
isn't getting by the easiest and cheapest way possible, it's applying good
and accepted machining practices to guarantee respectable and reliable
results. I can't speak for your objective.

That's the problem. You can't get your mind out of the production
environment.

Ted

Stan Stocker wrote:

IIRC the original post was asking if it would be practical to make tool
steels at home for economic reasons, given the high cost of commercial
stock.

Exactly. He didn't state what tools he wished to make and for what kind
of a run but, from the sound of it, he want to make a special tool for
something where the cost of having a special tool made or even buying
the special steel to make it would be out of line with his objective. I
offered a suggestion appropriate to an HSM with a need for a special or
unusual tool for limited application. e.g.:

I picked up two Federal dial gages reading tenths surplus for $5ea. I
overhauled them and wound up with two smoothly working units. I wished
to check the calibration and put them into service but they were
designed to go on a dovetail rack and pinion mount which I do not have.
For my purposes, I would be happy to simply have a dovetail to rod
adapter. A half inch cube of aluminum with a dovetail slot, a set screw
and a couple of threaded holes to allow different direction and size of
rod would be nice. I needed a dovetail cutter of apropriate angle to
make these. I'm sure I could order it and wait but I chose to make the
cutter out of "OCS"*. It did just fine and it now sits in the "odd
cutter" collection. Perhaps someday it will get used again. If you
wish, you can see the finished adapter at
http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_1999_retired_files/DGAGE.TXT

I have two taps I made, also from OCS, one to repair the tailstock ram
on my Smithy (threaded bronze bushing) and one to replace a missing
(steel) wing nut from an old oak table. You can see the later at
http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/Making_a_tap.txt
Neither of these were available locally. Both of these could be ordered
from the US but UPS charges a *minimum* brokerage fee of $35 in addition
to the taxes and duty not to mention the wait.

My son-in-law, a mechanic, has broken a few Snap-on "Chrome Vanadium
Tool Steel" cold chisels. Sure, Snap-on will replace them free but he
is without his chisel until the next time the Snap-on truck comes
around. Back around '93 I made him one out of OCS. About six months
ago I asked him how it was doing. He said it would soon need to get its
first sharpening.

I made a set of drifts for making the handle holes in a hammer head.
There are three required, a starter, an enlarger and one to make the
hole egg shaped. The starter is rather slender so heats up quickly. I
made it out of H-13 air hardening steel. The other two, I made out of
OCS. They worked fine then and still do.

I made a wood handled hot chisel and a hardie chisel out of H-13. I'm
sure Harold would be quick to point out that A-5 or D-2 would be better
for these but (big but) both those require rather sophisticated heat
treatment well beyond what I can do in my heat treating facilities.
(These consist of a small propane fired blacksmith's forge and a bucket
each of oil and water.) H-13 is an air hardening steel that can be
hardened by heating to a bright "cherry red" and cooling in air. Both
of these have been sharpened a few times in the 10 or so years I've had
them and are quite satisfactory.

This is kinda long but the point is that a good teacher, be it in the
classroom or on the NG, needsto be able to put themselves in the
"students" position in terms of background, facilities and needs. Some
of our posters are unable to do that. They can only see the problem
from the perspective of a production shop.

My original thought was maybe, but without heat treat ovens that can be
programmed or at least controlled manually to run the correct profiles,
how would you harden and temper it in a way that would give any better
performance than W1 or O1 type steels?

I think Ed and Harold are correct. Making your own high quality tool
steel is probably not on in a home shop. At least, certainly not in
mine. One of these days I want to build an electronically controlled
heat treat oven but primarily for for getting small Al 6061-T6 back to
T6 after welding.

* OCS: "Old Chevy Spring". teenut's term for old car/truck leaf or coil
springs, usually obtainable free. :-)

Ted

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel. The tool

So? If I can pick up an old spring (which, incidently, is not just
a

Sorta missed the point there, didn't you Ted? How does that relate to
someone making their own steel?

Actually, I didn't. You and Ed did. The OP's objective was to get
lower cost tool steel. Remember?

I remember all too well, and his proposed method was to make it by melting
scrap materials. That was the point of his message, and the reply he
received from both Ed and myself was one explaining the difficulty of
achieving his goal. Your introduction of scrap spring steel in no way
addresses the issue of melting scrap for making tool steels, although it is
a compromise on the concept of eliminating the "high cost" of obtaining
"tool steel", which it is not. That you choose to make cutting tools that
please you from springs is a great idea, but try putting one of your trusted
tools to work cutting any material that has an attitude and tell me how well
your cheap trick ways hold up. Making a few chips isn't the same thing as
machining metal, and your method falls way short of that. I'd be keenly
interested in hearing how well your home made cutting tools hold up when
machining something like 17-4 PH stainless, a material I use extensively.
Hell, just try them on some good old 304 stainless. Then lets talk.
"
I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy
the more expensive it gets so I thought would it be possible to make
my own in a crucible by ..."

Shooting yourself in the foot here, Ted. You're quoting that to which I
was making reference. His point was making his own by melting, not using
car springs instead. That was your suggestion as if it's a cure-all recipe
for his problems. It isn't.

The steel in car springs is pretty damned good steel, Ted. That IS
modern
high-quality steel. There's no way you could come within a country
mile of
that quality by cooking up something in a crucible out of scrap, which
was
the idea being suggested.

Read the above. Consider the OP's objective.

His objective was melting, not car springs. What part of that can't you
grasp? He clearly stated he wants to MELT in a CRUCIBLE. He made that
abundantly clear, but never mentioned car springs.

The "so what" is a point of information for your benefit.

It would be if I had a use for it or if the OP did. You have wandered
far from the topic. There are many, many specialized steels of which
you pick one, probably a very expensive one, which completely misses the
point which was a desire to make tools inexpensively.

I wandered far from the topic when responding to why one would not do well
melting scrap materials to make tool steels when that was the point of the
post? I'll try to make sense of that later. That you feel you have no
need for a material that has particular qualities well suited to a given
application is fine with me, but I don't think you're qualified to speak for
anyone else. You certainly can't know that a material offered as an
example of why engineered materials are superior to anything one is likely
to produce at home could, or could not, be of use to most anyone,
especially if they're facing a given problem with material choices. Most
folks seem to appreciate learning something new, and file the information
away for that special day when it applies to them. You seem to think an
old rusty spring from a car is the answer to everything. It isn't .

kindly discard it.

I did.

Doesn't surprise me, not at all, Ted. But try not to speak for everyone in
this case.

See above. I'm not familiar with the steel you
mention but do you know what the max tensile of the steel used in
car/truck springs is? Does it matter for many applications e.g.
making
a counter bore to refurbish a brass valve seat?

Everything in life isn't a brass valve seat, Ted. Some folks face real
problems, problems that can't and won't be solved by carbon steel.

Again, how does that relate to making one's own tool steel?

Read the original post and become informed.

Uh huh! One of us has blinders. I'm not sure which one of us it is,
though, but the finger of suspicion points at you, who is he one that seems
to choose to ignore the fact that the party posting suggested MELTING scrap.

Would you present the same argument if you had a prolonged run and your
creation from a Chev spring didn't hold up to the task, much the same
way a
HSS drill might not hold up the way a cobalt drill would in hardened
steel?

I am not in production and, from the sound of it, neither is the OP so
your comment is almost certainly irrelevent.

And that makes a difference? What if you're trying to machine tough
materials, even one piece? What do you do then, Ted, step back a few years
to an older spring, assuming it knows how to cut tough stuff when the
younger ones don't?


Unfortunately some you
folk with vast production experience forget that the HSM is usually
willing to spend time instead of money and typicaly wants to make only a
few parts and will likely never use the tool again. I have a number of
such in a box in case the problem ever comes up again.

Once again, you're drawing conclusions for everyone. I still offer you the
challenge of applying your tools to tough to machine materials. Nothing
short of that is going to convince you that your one-size-fits-all concepts
are not valid for everyone, nor all the time. Further, where's the economy
in making a tool that takes hours, yet won't do the job? I agree, it's a
great learning experience, but one of the things one learns is to not do it
again.

I gather your suggestion would be to continue to re-invent the wheel
until
you got through the job. That might work in your home shop, but
industry
would be DOA if it assumed the same posture.

How many pieces did the OP say he wished to make. Can you quote me a
price for one 6" long, 1" diameter piece of that Vasco steel you
mentioned? Does it come annealled? Can it be turned/milled with
tooling likely to be available in the typical home shop? Can it then be
hardened in my small propane fired 'smithing forge or will I have to
send it out? Where? How much will it cost? Don't forget, there is
only one piece. How long will I have to wait to get it back so I can
make the three pieces I want?

Is there a point to this? Can't your argument be presented for any
material? Regardless of any of the above, don't you think that jumping
through any of the hoops mentioned above would be worth the effort if you
were struggling with a project that seemed endless? You can pull the
shades down all you want, there are those in the world that appreciate
hearing about something that may better their lives, make a project flow
seamlessly, what ever. If you want to get technical, Vasco-Max is a
precipitation hardening steel, something one can do at home easily. Far
easier than heat treating old car springs, I might add. It's all a matter
of not thinking your so damned clever that a car spring is the answer to
everything. You seem to have lost sight of the fact that high carbon
materials for machining are no longer used, and those that choose to use
them are hampered by premature edge wear and tool failure from heating.
You're not talking to some bumpkin that just fell off the turnip wagon, I've
run machines for gain for almost my entire life, and carbon steel is one
thing that was gladly removed form the shops, especially a shop that wanted
to get the job done at a profit. Even guys at home don't have the rest
of their lives to make every tool from scrap, forge, heat treat, screw
around endlessly, only to repeat the process because the tool won't come
close to performing the way commercial tools made of HSS steel do. Even
home shop guys value their time to a degree. None of us wish to spend the
rest of our lives fighting with a tool that won't hold up. What the hell
good is saving a couple bucks if you spend the rest of your life fighting
one project? How cheap is that? Seems to come at an elevated cost, it's
certainly not a bargain.

If you can't answer those questions or can't be bothered, perhaps you
should reconsider your position.

Get serious. You want me to take a giant step backwards so I can be up to
speed with technology of 80 years ago? How is that teaching me anything?
What part of ancient machining technology is there that you think would
benefit me? How is that helping me achieve any objective? Why don't
you try machining some titanium with one of your home made tools and get
back to me. Should prove interesting. If that doesn't help you understand
how poor carbon steel tools are, nothing will.

Harold

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Stan Stocker wrote:

very big snip----

This is kinda long but the point is that a good teacher, be it in the
classroom or on the NG, needsto be able to put themselves in the
"students" position in terms of background, facilities and needs. Some
of our posters are unable to do that. They can only see the problem
from the perspective of a production shop.

Speaking from your own perspective once again, eh Ted? You are the one
that has the tunnel vision, the one that thinks that car springs solve all
problems. They don't. Speaking as one that has years of experience in
both manufacturing and tooling, you simply are seeing the world from your
own little shop, where saving a nickel, regardless of the expense, is more
important than acknowledging that there are better ways to skin a cat. I
learned a great deal about your person when you built a tool that was
swaging holes instead of punching them cleanly when rebuilding Venetian
blinds. You were handed some outstanding advice that would have yielded
professional results, but chose instead to go with a "die" (for lack of any
other terminology, so I use the term loosely) that was drawing the material
to a razor edge burr that had to be 1/8" in length. If that level of
quality and precision is acceptable to you, we have very little to discuss.
You clearly do not grasp what it is to do good and proper work, and you're
likely never to.

I think Ed and Harold are correct. Making your own high quality tool
steel is probably not on in a home shop. At least, certainly not in
mine. One of these days I want to build an electronically controlled
heat treat oven but primarily for for getting small Al 6061-T6 back to
T6 after welding.

Ted


Finally, on comes the light, eh, Ted? That was my point from the outset. If
you'll go back and read my first post that involved your springs, my only
statement was one of there being far superior materials out there for use as
"tool steel" as compared to home made stuff, and I included springs. I
said "Great idea, but far from modern high quality tool steel". I said
it then, and I'm saying it now. Frankly, the term "tool steel" has been
way over-used in this thread.

The entire point of Ed's and my posts were that making tool steel at home
was likely doomed to failure. You are the one that started selling car
springs. Car springs that in some cases are near failure from repeated
flexing, I might add. Surely you've seen car springs broken from fatigue?
And these will make great tools?

The next time you pass judgment on people that have worked in the machine
shop trade, try to understand that what you do with your 3 in one machine is
far and away different from the same thing as running serious machines.
People that own real machine tools don't run them at three RPM, running
carbon steel cutters. I have not run my machines for gain since '83, and I
still prefer to run them "properly", so your production shop concepts don't
hold water. Maybe what you're really struggling with is a lack of
knowledge and experience, but you seem to refuse to acknowledge the idea.
You're doing your level best to step backwards in technology, but I have no
need to do so. I'm already far enough behind with my lack of CNC
knowledge.

It's not the production concept that drives people like me, it's the concept
of doing things in an acceptable manner, that yield good and reliable
results, and don't require the wheel to be reinvented time and again.
Perhaps you don't mind running a cutter at 20 RPM to avoid burning it, but
you are in the minority. Anyone that is familiar with proper machining
techniques is likely desirous of running their machine at a reasonable
speed. You have immediately eliminated carbon steel, and that's as it
should be.

I wonder, Ted, how you'd react to someone lecturing you endlessly
concerning your particular area of expertise when they are poorly informed
in that arena. I trust you'll be as good at hearing it as you are at
handing it out.

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Speaking from your own perspective once again, eh Ted? You are the one
that has the tunnel vision, the one that thinks that car springs solve all
problems.

Harold, you often give good advice and you often give long diatribes
about how good you are and how experienced but your perspective is
rather narrow. Now you think that I think that "car springs solve all
problems". I guess you never read my dropbox article on my holders for
carbide inserts or the tools I've tipped with Stellite #6. The fact,
which you can't see, due to your tunnel vision, is that W1, O1 and even
old car springs can make perfectly satisfactory tools for some
applications in the home shop.

Example: You spouted off about some exotic steel with 350Ksi tensile.
I noticed that you did not quote yield, hardness or notch toughness.
You may have also forgoten that *all* steels have the same elastic
modulus so your wonder steel will do nothing for rigidity. This thread
is addressing the home shop environment which is something you have
great difficulty dealing with. How many home shops have equipment which
will stress a tool to 350Ksi? Yet that is the only parameter you
quoted.

Speaking as one that has years of experience in
both manufacturing and tooling,

THAT is the problem! Get down of your high horse and try seeing someone
elses perspective.

learned a great deal about your person when you built a tool that was
swaging holes instead of punching them cleanly when rebuilding Venetian
blinds. You were handed some outstanding advice that would have yielded
professional results, but chose instead to go with a "die" (for lack of any
other terminology, so I use the term loosely) that was drawing the material
to a razor edge burr that had to be 1/8" in length. If that level of
quality and precision is acceptable to you, we have very little to discuss.
You clearly do not grasp what it is to do good and proper work, and you're
likely never to.

Interesting rant. The blinds are up, work beautifully and there isn't
even one word of truth in the above paragraph except the statement that
I built the tool. You never saw the results so your supposition(s)
about them are pure fiction. Iw ould send you a picture but I doubt if
you would look at it and your opinion of the result is vastly less
important than my wife's.

The entire point of Ed's and my posts were that making tool steel at home
was likely doomed to failure.

I don't recall anyone disagreeing with that. The disagreement was over
the possibility of making *tools* not *tool steel* for various
applications.

The next time you pass judgment on people that have worked in the machine
shop trade, try to understand that what you do with your 3 in one machine is
far and away different from the same thing as running serious machines.

That statement mahes my point. Although we do see threads here
regarding production problems, the title of this NG is
REC.crafts.metalworking. Do you know what REC stands for?

need to do so. I'm already far enough behind with my lack of CNC
knowledge.

Not to mention Math, Physics and Strength of Materials.

of doing things in an acceptable manner,

Acceptable to you.

I wonder, Ted, how you'd react to someone lecturing you endlessly
concerning your particular area of expertise when they are poorly informed
in that arena.

I have read a number of your rants at myself and others so I guess I'm
pretty tolerant of most of it. :-)

Ted

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

It's not the production concept that drives people like me, it's the concept
of doing things in an acceptable manner, that yield good and reliable
results, and don't require the wheel to be reinvented time and again.

Where does this stop?

Some other person could point out that I'm still living
in the dark ages, using a flat leather belt driven lathe.
And that a modern gear head lathe will grind mine up
for lunch - and he'd be right!

Every home shop has at least one, and probably several
aspects that are behind the times. Sometimes the owners
even enjoy this kind of thing - it is a hobby after
all. Like my open belt cone pulley machines. Or
your avoidence of DROs. That sort of thing. Sure
it's slower and older and doesn't work as well. But
it's cheap and we have it.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Speaking from your own perspective once again, eh Ted? You are the one
that has the tunnel vision, the one that thinks that car springs solve
all
problems.

Harold, you often give good advice and you often give long diatribes
about how good you are and how experienced but your perspective is
rather narrow.

A perfect demonstration of your practice of preaching to those about
something which you are not qualified to judge. My performance record in
industry speaks for itself. As for my perspective being narrow, I've
noticed that you feel that way anytime someone doesn't agree with something
you propose. There are times when my experience (sorry) tells me that one
of your concepts, while functional, may not be in the best interest of
others. That is one of the benefits of having been there, done that,
something that seems to be missing from your concepts of machining.


Now you think that I think that "car springs solve all
problems". I guess you never read my dropbox article on my holders for
carbide inserts or the tools I've tipped with Stellite #6. The fact,
which you can't see, due to your tunnel vision, is that W1, O1 and even
old car springs can make perfectly satisfactory tools for some
applications in the home shop.

As if I've never heard of any of this? Once again, preaching to the owner
of the vineyard? I've not suggested that these things don't work, and,
indeed, in some cases, have used them myself. My main gripe with you is
your concept that these methods solve all problems, that a home shop kind of
guy is more concerned with saving a nickel than achieving good results. It
just may be for the first time that you finally said "perfectly satisfactory
tools for some applications in the home shop", for which I commend you.
There are many times when these suggested procedures work beautifully, and
can be the best choice for a given problem.

I took exception to your post when your one-size-fits-all attitude about car
springs was the answer to someone asking about melting scrap to formulate
tool steel. Your answer was a nice one for getting around the high cost of
tool steel, assuming that was the point of his inquiry, but it wasn't the
point of his inquiry. His point was the concept of making tool steel, with
the benefit of getting around the high cost of buying small quantities.
Which one of us has the tunnel vision?

Example: You spouted off about some exotic steel with 350Ksi tensile.
I noticed that you did not quote yield, hardness or notch toughness.
You may have also forgoten that *all* steels have the same elastic
modulus so your wonder steel will do nothing for rigidity. This thread
is addressing the home shop environment which is something you have
great difficulty dealing with. How many home shops have equipment which
will stress a tool to 350Ksi? Yet that is the only parameter you
quoted.

Notch toughness? How would you feel about a swash plate for a military
helicopter that had taken a round, blowing away a portion, but was still
capable of getting home? Yeah, I know, you're not going to build a
helicopter so it doesn't concern you, but someone out there just may have a
problem and have need for a material such as this. You, on the other
hand, tell me you discarded the information? What then would have been the
benefit of quoting any of the specifics? I have the information available
because I have the brochures from the mill. I have also machined the
product, which is readily machineable, although not likely with a car
spring.

Speaking as one that has years of experience in
both manufacturing and tooling,

THAT is the problem! Get down of your high horse and try seeing someone
elses perspective.

I see your perspective. I just don't agree with it. That's one of the
benefits of having experience. It's also one of the benefits of living in
the free world. I don't have to agree with you, and I don't.

learned a great deal about your person when you built a tool that was
swaging holes instead of punching them cleanly when rebuilding Venetian
blinds. You were handed some outstanding advice that would have
yielded
professional results, but chose instead to go with a "die" (for lack of
any
other terminology, so I use the term loosely) that was drawing the
material
to a razor edge burr that had to be 1/8" in length. If that level of
quality and precision is acceptable to you, we have very little to
discuss.
You clearly do not grasp what it is to do good and proper work, and
you're
likely never to.

Interesting rant. The blinds are up, work beautifully and there isn't
even one word of truth in the above paragraph except the statement that
I built the tool. You never saw the results so your supposition(s)
about them are pure fiction.

Then the photograph I have saved in a file with your name must have been
sent to me by someone else. The picture of the product, along with a
factory slot, clearly shows ragged detail and an irregular configuration,
especially the ends of the slots, which are anything but a radius.

Iw ould send you a picture but I doubt if
you would look at it

As I stated, I already have one, which you sent. I have it, along with your
email, dated May 22, 2002.


and your opinion of the result is vastly less
important than my wife's.

Agreed. We must please those with which we spend our time. I do not
choose to speak for your lovely wife. I may not see things the same way
she does, and I'm quite certain that she doesn't see them as I do, for one
of us has little to no experience in the machine shop, therefore may be
incapable of making critical judgments regards machining.


The entire point of Ed's and my posts were that making tool steel at
home
was likely doomed to failure.

I don't recall anyone disagreeing with that. The disagreement was over
the possibility of making *tools* not *tool steel* for various
applications.


But that was not the point of the post, and the answer, while nice to hear,
was not appropriate for the point at hand. Had you voiced your opinion,
good or bad, about the chance of success in making tool steel, and then
offered your suggestion, perhaps I may have had a better understanding of
your position. I simply did not think your answer was appropriate in and
of itself. I still don't.

The next time you pass judgment on people that have worked in the
machine
shop trade, try to understand that what you do with your 3 in one
machine is
far and away different from the same thing as running serious machines.

That statement mahes my point. Although we do see threads here
regarding production problems, the title of this NG is
REC.crafts.metalworking. Do you know what REC stands for?

Once again, just because one is working at home on a hobby basis doesn't
mean that they choose to take giant steps backwards. How many of these
guys own CNC machines? How do they (CNC owners) lend themselves to the
REC part you seem to think I don't understand? I get the impression that
because we do this for a hobby, that in your opinion we must do things
slowly, using primitive methods and primitive tooling, making sure that we
do it as cheaply as possible. You have made a point of that on more than one
occasion. That someone chooses to run machines for reasons other than
gain is no reason to not run them to the levels which they are capable.
Certainly if that be your choice, so be it, but you shouldn't speak for
others, certainly not for me. I have not run my machines for gain in over
20 years, but I don't have a burning desire to slow them down to a snail's
pace and take scratch cuts off material when I know I can run at acceptable
speeds and feeds and get a given project off the machine in reasonable time.
I do it because I can, and because I know how. Why do you find so much
resentment in your soul for that?

need to do so. I'm already far enough behind with my lack of CNC
knowledge.

Not to mention Math, Physics and Strength of Materials.

I am a retired machinist with a high school education, one that worked in
the trade for many years, including 16 years of running his own shop, with
very good success, I might add. In those years I earned the respect of my
peers, which all seemed to understand and agree with my skills and abilities
as an accomplished machinist and tool maker. While lacking proper
education in the arenas specified above, aside from common math, with which
I do not struggle, none are a requirement for being a highly qualified
machinist. The rest are the realm of an engineer. I have never claimed that
title, and am painfully aware that I am not qualified. That, in no way,
makes me any less qualified as a machinist and tool maker, however. Thanks
for the insult, though.

of doing things in an acceptable manner,

Acceptable to you.

Yeah, me and others that understand machining in a way you may never.

I wonder, Ted, how you'd react to someone lecturing you endlessly
concerning your particular area of expertise when they are poorly
informed
in that arena.

I have read a number of your rants at myself and others so I guess I'm
pretty tolerant of most of it. :-)

Doubtful. You have not been put to the test. I haven't attempted to tell
you anything about your field of expertise, assuming you have one. It
surely isn't machining. I would like to thank you for reading my rants,
however. I would have figured you'd simply set them aside, especially
with your apparent attitude about my inability to see things clearly. I
must be very amusing to you! :-)

Harold

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

It's not the production concept that drives people like me, it's the
concept
of doing things in an acceptable manner, that yield good and reliable
results, and don't require the wheel to be reinvented time and again.

Where does this stop?

Some other person could point out that I'm still living
in the dark ages, using a flat leather belt driven lathe.
And that a modern gear head lathe will grind mine up
for lunch - and he'd be right!

Yep, he would be! :-)

Still, I don't hear you pushing your machines or your concepts on everyone,
either! What I do see is you passing along to readers that which you feel
will be of benefit to them. In spite of some seeing my posts as something
different from that, my intention is the same. Witness my responses to the
question about mill drills versus knee type machines, or table top machines.
I have a definite bias against the round column mills, and for good reason.
My recommendations are to always try to avoid them if possible if they are
to be used primarily as a milling machine. That's good information for a
newbie starting out that has no clue about the virtues of milling machines
and what to expect from them. Some folks take offense, others are grateful
for the tip. Can't please them all, and I no longer try. The tip is
sound, but it may not apply to all, and certainly not in all cases. And so
it is with your flat belt machines. They're not for me, I have different
expectations from machines than they would fulfill, but I'm as happy as I
can be that there are folks like you that love, appreciate, and own them.

Every home shop has at least one, and probably several
aspects that are behind the times. Sometimes the owners
even enjoy this kind of thing - it is a hobby after
all. Like my open belt cone pulley machines. Or
your avoidence of DROs. That sort of thing. Sure
it's slower and older and doesn't work as well. But
it's cheap and we have it.

Jim

Agreed. Certainly not everything I own is the best there is, nor is any of
it current technology. My hone, for example (horrors, a flat belt machine!)
is the old 4 speed model, a 1290-D. Far and away different from the later
16 speed machines such as the 1660 models, but I have it and I'm proud of
it. I know, from previous experience, that it will serve me well, in fact.
Further, I have a complete compliment of mandrels for it, starting at .120"
up through the AN600 for doing large bores. How could I not be thrilled?

Back to the above, however, what you say is true. After all, as you say, I
resist DRO's and even CNC machines (which I couldn't afford, anyway). I'm
truly a dinosaur. The point is we don't attempt to suggest to others that
they should emulate our choices. Mine of not using a DRO is a particularly
good example. Had I not been trained to trust screws, I would likely be
very much in favor of owning them. I am very supportive of those that use
them, for they permit someone with limited exposure to machining to get
around the skill level required to achieve otherwise difficult results.
You don't hear me telling everyone that they are a magic cure-all, though,
and I don't recommend them to everyone buying a machine, even if they have
no clue as to how to run their chosen machine.

If a hobbyist is inclined to run machines, there is no better gift one can
give him(her)self than to learn to run them manually, but that's an
incredible investment of time if one expects speed, precision and
reliability. Sad thing is, most everyone runs machines enough to make
chips, even enough to turn out a project that somewhat resembles their
design. Big difference, as you know, for those that do it day in and day
out, who must work to stringent requirements and hold tight tolerances in
many instances. For those of us that have worked in the trade, it's no
secret that making chips isn't being successful. I've witnessed folks
being fired because they couldn't do the work, but they sure as hell could
make chips. I try to encourage folks to learn the basics and proper
machining techniques, which will always serve them well, no matter the type
of machine being used. Teaching the limitations of such poor compromises
for cutting tools as carbon steel is very much a part of that concept. They
should come to understand the limitations and know when to choose it and
when not to.

My purpose in suggesting alternate materials (much earlier in this thread)
in lieu of car springs was, in part, one that would have particular value
to those
that may be facing a tough job, perhaps some stainless, perhaps some chrome
moly, where a form (custom) tool of sorts might be required, and to point
out that choosing car springs for making all tools may not always be in the
interest of the reader. How nice it would be to spend the time making the
tool from a choice that is suited to the task at hand instead of carbon
steel, which would most likely fail before the job was finished, even a
small one, say a one-off. I can see that happening to someone machining
some 300 series stainless (except for 303, of course) and just getting
started only to have the tool fail. At some point in time all of us must
know and understand the extreme limitations of carbon steel as a cutting
tool, which was my point. I sure as hell didn't expect to have anyone take
it so personally, as if I was attacking a family member. That sucks.

The other reason I mentioned other materials was to draw a comparison for
the fellow that suggested melting scrap and formulating his own tool steel.
The whole idea was to show that there are materials out there that have been
finely engineered to particular specifications, and the hobbyist is likely
to fall way short of coming close to anything similar, or even capable of
performing in a like fashion. Conditions and equipment necessary for
successful blending and melting, and the successive processing, such as
rolling, eliminate those of us that might have aspirations of trying. Sad,
but true.

I trust you understand that none of my statements are directed towards you,
Jim. :-)

Harold

AAAHH!!! don't do that to me! I was eating dinner, and nearly died laughing.

--

Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
George Watson wrote:
I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy the
more expensive it gets

so I thought would it be possible to make my own in a crucible by mixing
scrap stainless, mild steel and a measured amount of powdered graphite to
up
the carbon content

anyone got any idea if this could work?

Sure, once you've got the appropriate crucible, furnace, temperature
controller, exact specs of the alloy you require and your ingredients,
it's almost trivial.

Or my heating bill. Was 188 last month, this month 270. Mercy!

--

Christopher A. Young
Jesus: The Reason for the Season
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Jon Grimm" wrote in message
...
almost trivial.

much like income taxes =)


"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
George Watson wrote:
I have notice when buying tool steel the smaller the quanity you buy the
more expensive it gets

so I thought would it be possible to make my own in a crucible by
mixing
scrap stainless, mild steel and a measured amount of powdered graphite
to up
the carbon content

anyone got any idea if this could work?

Sure, once you've got the appropriate crucible, furnace, temperature
controller, exact specs of the alloy you require and your ingredients,
it's almost trivial.