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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Brass or bronze???
This question must be at least 4,000 years old but I must ask it again.
Is there an inexpensive way to determine if a metal is bronze or brass? I have a pile of old pump bodies and impellers that I need to melt down and cast into a seachest. I need to avoid zinc as much as possible. Pump bodies are usually cast in phosphor or aluminum bronze but sometimes they are red brass which contain zinc. The high brasses are easy to spot but red brass and commercial bronze are darned near impossible to tell by looking. I found a chemical test kit for identifying copper alloys but it cost about $500. All I want to do is find the zinc. Is there a chemical that will produce a visable reaction with the zinc? -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
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Brass or bronze???
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#3
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Brass or bronze???
In article kSNpb.960$62.792@lakeread04, Glenn Ashmore says...
Is there a chemical that will produce a visable reaction with the zinc? How about melting a sample bit with a torch, and looking to see if any white zinc oxide comes off and stains the area? Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Brass or bronze???
Ned Simmons wrote:
SNIP One of the most widely used alloys for underwater marine hardware is 85-5-5-5 (Copper-Tin-Lead-Zinc), usually pronounced 85-three-5. The ASM Metals Handbook refers to 85-5-5-5 as a bronze. SNIP I've also seen the same alloy called "Gunmetal" (from British catalogs) supposed to be easy machining (often appears in steam engine kits) JK |
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Brass or bronze???
"John O. Kopf" wrote in message
... Ned Simmons wrote: SNIP One of the most widely used alloys for underwater marine hardware is 85-5-5-5 (Copper-Tin-Lead-Zinc), usually pronounced 85-three-5. The ASM Metals Handbook refers to 85-5-5-5 as a bronze. SNIP I've also seen the same alloy called "Gunmetal" (from British catalogs) supposed to be easy machining (often appears in steam engine kits) JK Among the cast copper alloys, without getting into the numbers, those rated "excellent" against seawater corrosion are tin bronze; leaded tin bronze; high-leaded tin bronze; leaded red brass; and aluminum bronze. Silicon bronze, widely used for boat hardware, is rated "good." 85-5-5-5 is leaded red brass. Also known as "ounce metal." Its Copper Council designation is C83600, and it gets a top rating for seawater corrosion resistance. Without other inhibitors, bronzes/brasses (there is no real engineering distinction between the two) with 15% or less zinc are not strongly subject to dezincification. With additions of tin, manganese, and phosphorus, the zinc content can rise as high as 28% for some seawater-resistant alloys. It's like steel alloys in the sense that some additives sharply affect the behavior of others. All in all, Glen, you've got a real head-scratcher if you're going to use unknown alloys in your mix. Silicon bronze isn't that expensive, BTW, and it's very easy to cast. It could be your best solution. Ed Huntress |
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Brass or bronze???
John O. Kopf wrote: Ned Simmons wrote: SNIP One of the most widely used alloys for underwater marine hardware is 85-5-5-5 (Copper-Tin-Lead-Zinc), usually pronounced 85-three-5. The ASM Metals Handbook refers to 85-5-5-5 as a bronze. SNIP I've also seen the same alloy called "Gunmetal" (from British catalogs) supposed to be easy machining (often appears in steam engine kits) JK You're right. Sounds like leaded gunmetal. Easy to cast and machine. There is something about the addition of tin that prevents the zinc from leaching. I am beginning to see that the line between brass and bronze is so fuzzy that the only real difference seems to be the name. Red brass can be 94% copper and 6% zinc while phosphor bronze can be 11% zinc. Fortunately I do know that about half of my bronze collection is Everdur silicon bronze with almost no zinc. It is government surplus with the alloy number CA655/MIL-T6013A cast into it. The miscellaneous pieces were what I was worried about. It is mostly regular commercial pump castings. OTOH, if a pinch of lead, a smidgen of tin and a dab of zinc will improve the casting quality maybe a lump or two of the less well identified scrap will help. :-) -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
#7
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Brass or bronze???
"jim rozen" wrote in message
... In article kSNpb.960$62.792@lakeread04, Glenn Ashmore says... Is there a chemical that will produce a visable reaction with the zinc? How about melting a sample bit with a torch, and looking to see if any white zinc oxide comes off and stains the area? Jim Thats a good answer. But how much zinc is in the alloy?? And how do you know if the white oxide is zinc? It got me to thinking about the times when I was using a blow torch to look at some ores. I forgot all of it but with a little research you might get what you are looking for in some old assayers manuals. Why not just put a test piece in a boiling hot salt solution for a couple days and see how it looks?? |
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