I recently acquired a face mill that has a glossy black oxide surface
finish. The mill is in excellent condition except that the previous owner
allowed it to develop some surface rust (mostly on the upper surfaces;
probably from sitting around uncovered on a shelf). The surface rust is like
freckles, with most very small, but some spots of 2-3mm dia. Naturally, the
black oxide finish on these upper surfaces (between the rust spots) is also
dull.

I was wondering if there is a way to remove the rust (or majority of rust)
without significantly damaging the black oxide. In the past, when I has some
surface rust on some black oxide impact sockets, I tried the following:

1. Green scotchbrite and kerosene.
2. Phosphoric acid.
3. Salt & vinegar bath.

All three methods removed the black oxide as well as the rust.

How about polishing? That will also remove the black oxide, but perhaps not
as much. Or is there an easy (and inexpensive) way to renew the finish?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

- Michael

"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
I recently acquired a face mill that has a glossy black oxide surface
finish. The mill is in excellent condition except that the previous owner
allowed it to develop some surface rust (mostly on the upper surfaces;
probably from sitting around uncovered on a shelf). The surface rust is
like
freckles, with most very small, but some spots of 2-3mm dia. Naturally,
the
black oxide finish on these upper surfaces (between the rust spots) is
also
dull.

I was wondering if there is a way to remove the rust (or majority of rust)
without significantly damaging the black oxide. In the past, when I has
some
surface rust on some black oxide impact sockets, I tried the following:

1. Green scotchbrite and kerosene.
2. Phosphoric acid.
3. Salt & vinegar bath.

All three methods removed the black oxide as well as the rust.

How about polishing? That will also remove the black oxide, but perhaps
not
as much. Or is there an easy (and inexpensive) way to renew the finish?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

- Michael


Michael,

If the rust is quite superficial, try wiping the cutter with an oily rag,
rubbing on the rested spots. If that doesn't work, a wire brush (hand
variety, not powered) will usually knock the rust off, then you can follow
up with an oily rag. Don't expect it to look like it's never
rusted------the damage is done, it's a matter of degree. Still, this
will make it look one hell of a lot better.

Harold

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 02:20:36 GMT, "DeepDiver"
wrote:

I recently acquired a face mill that has a glossy black oxide surface
finish. The mill is in excellent condition except that the previous owner
allowed it to develop some surface rust (mostly on the upper surfaces;
probably from sitting around uncovered on a shelf). The surface rust is like
freckles, with most very small, but some spots of 2-3mm dia. Naturally, the
black oxide finish on these upper surfaces (between the rust spots) is also
dull.

I was wondering if there is a way to remove the rust (or majority of rust)
without significantly damaging the black oxide. In the past, when I has some
surface rust on some black oxide impact sockets, I tried the following:

1. Green scotchbrite and kerosene.
2. Phosphoric acid.
3. Salt & vinegar bath.

All three methods removed the black oxide as well as the rust.

How about polishing? That will also remove the black oxide, but perhaps not
as much. Or is there an easy (and inexpensive) way to renew the finish?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

- Michael


This may sound a bit cold..but..why bother? Its a cutting tool.
Disposable over time. Give it a shot of LPS-3, store it properly and
dont sweat the small stuff.

Anyone remember the Tnut quote about spending all your time making
machines pretty? Something pithy about "**** the paint, use the damned
thing"

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

A product called Evaporust. This is a liquid that looks and feels like
soap. I have soaked rusted tools in it, and they come out clean and black.
It won't restore the shininess, though.

In article , Gunner Asch says...

Anyone remember the Tnut quote about spending all your time making
machines pretty? Something pithy about "**** the paint, use the damned
thing"

Yeah, I think that particular comment really struck home with me.
Up until that time he and I had a somewhat bumpy usent interchange
but when we both realized that we shared that common philosphy
it smoothed out a bit.

Paint was never my strong suit.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Find some Evaporust.
Dissolves the rust, doesn't hurt finishes.
2 hours max.
Good stuff.

- -
Rex Burkheimer
Fort Worth TX

DeepDiver wrote:
I recently acquired a face mill that has a glossy black oxide surface
finish. The mill is in excellent condition except that the previous owner
allowed it to develop some surface rust (mostly on the upper surfaces;
probably from sitting around uncovered on a shelf). The surface rust is like
freckles, with most very small, but some spots of 2-3mm dia. Naturally, the
black oxide finish on these upper surfaces (between the rust spots) is also
dull.

I was wondering if there is a way to remove the rust (or majority of rust)
without significantly damaging the black oxide. In the past, when I has some
surface rust on some black oxide impact sockets, I tried the following:

1. Green scotchbrite and kerosene.
2. Phosphoric acid.
3. Salt & vinegar bath.

All three methods removed the black oxide as well as the rust.

How about polishing? That will also remove the black oxide, but perhaps not
as much. Or is there an easy (and inexpensive) way to renew the finish?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

- Michael

Brass wire wheel brush, not brass plated steel. Brass that a magnet
will not stick to.
In addition the little bit of brass that remains on the tool surface
provides some degree of rust resistance.

4/0 steel wool and light oil is the time tested method for removing rust
from blued(black oxide) guns with minimum blue damage. Ask any gunsmith.

Randy


"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
I recently acquired a face mill that has a glossy black oxide surface
finish. The mill is in excellent condition except that the previous owner
allowed it to develop some surface rust (mostly on the upper surfaces;
probably from sitting around uncovered on a shelf). The surface rust is
like freckles, with most very small, but some spots of 2-3mm dia.
Naturally, the black oxide finish on these upper surfaces (between the rust
spots) is also dull.

I was wondering if there is a way to remove the rust (or majority of rust)
without significantly damaging the black oxide. In the past, when I has
some surface rust on some black oxide impact sockets, I tried the
following:

1. Green scotchbrite and kerosene.
2. Phosphoric acid.
3. Salt & vinegar bath.

All three methods removed the black oxide as well as the rust.

How about polishing? That will also remove the black oxide, but perhaps
not as much. Or is there an easy (and inexpensive) way to renew the
finish?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

- Michael

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...
A product called Evaporust. This is a liquid that looks and feels like
soap. I have soaked rusted tools in it, and they come out clean and black.
It won't restore the shininess, though.

Thanks Leo and Rex for the tips on EvapoRust; it looks like a promising
product for this and many other de-rusting operations I come across. Now if
I can just find a local source for the stuff.

- Michael

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

This may sound a bit cold..but..why bother? Its a cutting tool.
Disposable over time. Give it a shot of LPS-3, store it properly
and dont sweat the small stuff.

Actually, it's a carbide insert mill, so it's not exactly "disposable".

Besides, by your philosophy, one could argue that firearms are disposable
tools and thus we should not worry about their cosmetic condition. But I'd
hate to have a rusty firearm, even if the rust is only on non-working
exterior parts.

- Michael

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Gunner Asch
says...

Anyone remember the Tnut quote about spending all your time making
machines pretty? Something pithy about "**** the paint, use the damned
thing"

Yeah, I think that particular comment really struck home with me.
Up until that time he and I had a somewhat bumpy usent interchange
but when we both realized that we shared that common philosphy
it smoothed out a bit.

Paint was never my strong suit.

Jim

I've noticed, in my few years of following this group, that there are those
that see their machines much as a teenager does (did) his car. I recall
all too well how important it was to keep it washed and vacuumed. White
floor mats and whitewall tires (does that date me, or what?) that were
spotless------and paint that never saw dust.

It's different for the majority of us that have worked in the trade, when it
comes to our machine tools. While, almost to that man, none of us
prefer to have a shop worn looking machine, we also realize that how a
machine looks has little, if anything, to do with how it performs. Thus my
hatred for rust. Precision surfaces can't be rusted without
damage-----but paint can be totally missing, with no ill affects on a
machine.

The paint around the spindle on my Graziano, and other places, is long
gone, right down to the cast iron, a result of running a chemical coolant
that had an affinity for paint. Mind you, I don't wear that as a badge
of honor, but the harsh reality is that the machine was a work tool, and
coolant was a necessity. If paint had to be sacrificed in order to
squeeze the maximum performance from the machine, so be it.

Do I have plans to paint the machine?

No, I do not. I can't get interested in spending that amount of time on
something that makes no difference, particularly when it might discourage me
from using the machine as intended, trying to avoid hurting the new paint
job. I take a realistic approach to my machines. Keep them well wiped
and oiled, and use them as intended. After all, they're machine tools, not
mantle pieces.

Harold

Ignoramus21085 wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:11:57 GMT, DeepDiver wrote:

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

A product called Evaporust. This is a liquid that looks and feels like
soap. I have soaked rusted tools in it, and they come out clean and black.
It won't restore the shininess, though.

Thanks Leo and Rex for the tips on EvapoRust; it looks like a promising
product for this and many other de-rusting operations I come across. Now if
I can just find a local source for the stuff.


I also bought it and found to work as advertised. Unfortunately, it is
expensive.

Yep. about $18/gallon at retail.
But it's reusable until you can't stand to look at it.
Then you can pour it down the drain.

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

I've noticed, in my few years of following this group, that there are
those
that see their machines much as a teenager does (did) his car. I recall
all too well how important it was to keep it washed and vacuumed. White
floor mats and whitewall tires (does that date me, or what?) that were
spotless------and paint that never saw dust.

I don't treat my machines like museum pieces. However, I do care for them as
I do all my tools. A well-maintained machine performs better and keeps its
value longer.

When I first bought my import 9x20 lathe (my first "chip making" machine,
not counting hand tools or bench grinders), I stripped it down to the frame
(short of removing the head from the bed). One thing that concerned me was
the amount of casting sand and dross still stuck to the inside surfaces of
the bed iron. It seemed that sand was constantly sloughing off. I may not
have a lot of machine room experience, but the idea of mixing sand with
precision ways and tooling just didn't sit right with me. So I took my die
grinder and a few carbide and abrasive points, and ground off all the crud
from the rough inside surfaces of the bed. I removed over a cup of casting
sand and other waste. Then I painted the freshly bright surfaces with
POR-15. Yes it was a lot of work, but I feel it was worth it. Mind you, I
don't baby this machine. There are plenty of places where the factory blue
paint has been chipped or scratched, and even a section on the tailstock
where I removed some globbed-on bondo, exposing bare metal. I haven't gotten
around to touching up the paint. When I do use this machine, my cleanup is
mostly just sweeping/vacuuming up the chips and wiping down the bare metal
surfaces with an oily rag. I really don't mind signs of use: stray chips,
oily surfaces, imperfect paint, etc. But rust is something I can't stand.
Not only is it unsightly, but it is damaging. And it is perpetuating if not
stopped.

Now, when it comes to my precision instruments, that's a whole 'nuther
story. Those I keep pristine.

- Michael

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Do I have plans to paint the machine?

No, I do not. I can't get interested in spending that amount of time on
something that makes no difference, particularly when it might discourage me
from using the machine as intended, trying to avoid hurting the new paint
job. I take a realistic approach to my machines. Keep them well wiped
and oiled, and use them as intended. After all, they're machine tools, not
mantle pieces.

I don't mind having mantle pieces. But they're seldom the same as
machine tools.

This having been agreed on, I do confess to the sort of puttering in
my shop that would have somebody fired in a commercial shop. For
example, I've done things like made nicer lockscrews for the micrometer
collars on my 10L, and done them with Brownell's oxpho cold blue
solution to blacken them up.

Also the lock pin for the handlever collet closer - I didn't like the
cheesey one that came with the machine, so I reamed the holes one size
up and made a nicer pin with some fancy knurling on it. Again I
used the Oxpho to tool black it.

I use the machines enough that seeing crummy fittings just grates on
my nerves. My hardinge milling machine has definitely seen better days,
but it works ok. It came without knobs on the switches though.
I took the time to get replacements, with the circular ridge around
the outside like hardinge put on it originally.

But paint? Never really do touch the stuff. g

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

This may sound a bit cold..but..why bother? Its a cutting tool.
Disposable over time. Give it a shot of LPS-3, store it properly
and dont sweat the small stuff.

Actually, it's a carbide insert mill, so it's not exactly "disposable".

As far as I'm concerned, it's still disposable...everything is, long term,
considered "perishable tooling" even the machines. And he did say "over
time"...even insert pockets get worn.

Besides, by your philosophy, one could argue that firearms are disposable
tools and thus we should not worry about their cosmetic condition. But I'd
hate to have a rusty firearm, even if the rust is only on non-working
exterior parts.

- Michael

I suppose you could carry the analogy that far if you wanted to and it would
still be accurate...the only thing that changes is the scale. The fact is
that unless there is rust in the insert pocket(that would be bad for the
insert and all that) or on a mounting face/flange, a little rust isn't gonna
hurt a thing in the world.

Luck

Mike

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:11:58 GMT, "DeepDiver"
wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .

This may sound a bit cold..but..why bother? Its a cutting tool.
Disposable over time. Give it a shot of LPS-3, store it properly
and dont sweat the small stuff.

Actually, it's a carbide insert mill, so it's not exactly "disposable".

Besides, by your philosophy, one could argue that firearms are disposable
tools and thus we should not worry about their cosmetic condition. But I'd
hate to have a rusty firearm, even if the rust is only on non-working
exterior parts.

- Michael

I do have a few rusty firearms. They came that way to me. They will be
cleaned up simply because rust will damage them, and ultimately make
them unusable. Not so with a shell mill. Shrug

Gunner, with quite a number of rust spotted mills of all styles

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Rex B" wrote in message
...

Yep. about $18/gallon at retail.
But it's reusable until you can't stand to look at it.
Then you can pour it down the drain.

Rex, could you tell me where you bought yours retail? I've found online
sources, but would prefer a local source.

"Rex B" wrote in message
...
Find some Evaporust.
Dissolves the rust, doesn't hurt finishes.
2 hours max.
Good stuff.

Interesting that you've found it doesn't hurt finishes. According to the
Orison marketing website:

"EVAPO-RUST [is] perfect for removing weapon finishes such as Bluing,
Parkerizing, Zinc Phosphate, and Browning. Blueing and zinc phosphate
coatings (heavy zinc per MIL-DTL-16232 and light zinc per TT-C-490) can be
removed both at room temperature (@30 minutes) and 118 dergrees Fahrenheit
(@15 minutes)."

According to them, it eats up finishes (and rather quickly at that)! What
types of finishes have you tried that it didn't damage?

- Michael

This is the email they sent me today.
"
Karl,

I apologize for this belated reply to your email, Stephanie is no longer
with the company and her emails have had trouble forwarding. We currently
have no distributors in Hawaii, but have some in California. Please go to
our website, www.evapo-rust.com and click on the distributors tab, look at
California. If you are not able to get satisfaction, please call us direct
at our toll free number, 888-329-9877. Thank you for your interest in our
product!

Best regards,

Howard Crosby"


"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...
A product called Evaporust. This is a liquid that looks and feels like
soap. I have soaked rusted tools in it, and they come out clean and
black. It won't restore the shininess, though.

Thanks Leo and Rex for the tips on EvapoRust; it looks like a promising
product for this and many other de-rusting operations I come across. Now
if I can just find a local source for the stuff.

- Michael

DeepDiver wrote:
"Rex B" wrote in message
...

Yep. about $18/gallon at retail.
But it's reusable until you can't stand to look at it.
Then you can pour it down the drain.


Rex, could you tell me where you bought yours retail? I've found online
sources, but would prefer a local source.

Well, actually the factory gave me some samples. Our company may be
handling it early next year.
I found several places near me that sell it, from the company website.
Have you tried MSC ?

Rex

DeepDiver wrote:
"Rex B" wrote in message
...

Find some Evaporust.
Dissolves the rust, doesn't hurt finishes.
2 hours max.
Good stuff.


Interesting that you've found it doesn't hurt finishes. According to the
Orison marketing website:

"EVAPO-RUST [is] perfect for removing weapon finishes such as Bluing,
Parkerizing, Zinc Phosphate, and Browning. Blueing and zinc phosphate
coatings (heavy zinc per MIL-DTL-16232 and light zinc per TT-C-490) can be
removed both at room temperature (@30 minutes) and 118 dergrees Fahrenheit
(@15 minutes)."

According to them, it eats up finishes (and rather quickly at that)! What
types of finishes have you tried that it didn't damage?

Sorry, I should have said it doesn't hurt good paint. Old paint is
another matter, as it took the paint of a a 1937-ish AA hobby lathe.
As for bluing, since it's basically a form or rust, it makes sense
that it would remove that.
So in this case it might not be what the OP needs.

Does electrolysis remove bluing?


Rex

"Rex B" wrote in message
...
DeepDiver wrote:
"Rex B" wrote in message
...

Find some Evaporust.
Dissolves the rust, doesn't hurt finishes.
2 hours max.
Good stuff.

Interesting that you've found it doesn't hurt finishes. According to the
Orison marketing website:

"EVAPO-RUST [is] perfect for removing weapon finishes such as Bluing,
Parkerizing, Zinc Phosphate, and Browning. Blueing and zinc phosphate
coatings (heavy zinc per MIL-DTL-16232 and light zinc per TT-C-490) can
be
removed both at room temperature (@30 minutes) and 118 dergrees
Fahrenheit
(@15 minutes)."

According to them, it eats up finishes (and rather quickly at that)! What
types of finishes have you tried that it didn't damage?

Sorry, I should have said it doesn't hurt good paint. Old paint is another
matter, as it took the paint of a a 1937-ish AA hobby lathe.
As for bluing, since it's basically a form or rust, it makes sense that
it would remove that.
So in this case it might not be what the OP needs.

Does electrolysis remove bluing?


That OP would be me. I was pretty excited (and amazed) when you first stated
that EvapoRust wouldn't hurt finishes (the implication being that it
wouldn't hurt black oxide, since that was the subject of this thread); I
thought perhaps that the chelating reaction was limited only to pure rust.
Oh well...

So now I'm wondering what makes EvapoRust so much better than a bath of
vinegar and salt (besides perhaps the speed of de-rusting)?

Btw, can anyone tell me what is chemically different between rust and black
oxide. I know that black oxide is a more durable oxidation film than rust,
but what makes it adhere to the surface of the steel better? And what makes
it black/blue?

- Michael

Keywords:
In article , "DeepDiver"
wrote:
snip
That OP would be me. I was pretty excited (and amazed) when you first stated
that EvapoRust wouldn't hurt finishes (the implication being that it
wouldn't hurt black oxide, since that was the subject of this thread); I
thought perhaps that the chelating reaction was limited only to pure rust.
Oh well...

So now I'm wondering what makes EvapoRust so much better than a bath of
vinegar and salt (besides perhaps the speed of de-rusting)?

Btw, can anyone tell me what is chemically different between rust and black
oxide. I know that black oxide is a more durable oxidation film than rust,
but what makes it adhere to the surface of the steel better? And what makes
it black/blue?

One is Fe3O2, and the other is Fe2O3 I believe. I can never remember
which is which. The red stuff is both porous, and expands as it forms,
which is why it continues rusting & eats holes in things. The black
version is non-porous, and seals the metal underneath, sort of like
anodizing on aluminum does. One thing I hadn't realized until a few
years ago is that one way to make the balck version is to boil the red
version. They sell blueing chemicals that form a thin layer of red rust,
and when you boil it, it turns black. Because the original rust doesn't
cover theings completely, you need to repeat this a few times to get a
really good coat of the black oxide, but it works very nicely on smallish
parts.

Doug White

replying to DeepDiver, MarkTop wrote:
How about using ospho .?

--
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