Hello all,

Owner/operator and machine appear to be fine, but I had an incident this
evening, and am curious what (else) I should learn from it.

I must have taken too large of cut, though it didn't seem that way at
first; that will take some more thought.

The weak spot was the rotation axis of my vice; the clamps holding the
base of the vice to the table held. The unintended new position put the
vice in contact with the endmill. Here's where I get blurry: I
recognized the problem and started reaching for the power switch, but I
cannot recall whether the spindle stopped before I cut the power. There
was no damage to the endmill and only a small scratch on the vice. The
part was trashed, but that's no loss. Ironic given our posts just hours
ago!

With the power off and the spindle definitely not turning, I began
looking for gentle ways to get the vice away from the endmill. I
finally loosened the vice from the table and tapped it with a mallet.

After some draw filing on the vice, it appears to be fine. No circuit
breakers tripped. The mill runs properly.

The vice is aligned again. I had an awful time doing it, which I think
was because I didn't have the vice clamps tight enough, so my taps were
causing large translations. After fixing that, I did some test taps and
then did a pass just watching the ball of the DTI pass over the fixed
jaw of the vice, fixed a gross error and then started with the
indicator. Rather than try to spin the scale on the DTI, I moved the
table to offset the DTI and then finally to "zero" it when it was
aligned. Comments and better ideas are welcome.

Bill

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Hello all,

Owner/operator and machine appear to be fine, but I had an incident this
evening, and am curious what (else) I should learn from it.

I must have taken too large of cut, though it didn't seem that way at
first; that will take some more thought.

The weak spot was the rotation axis of my vice; the clamps holding the
base of the vice to the table held. The unintended new position put the
vice in contact with the endmill. Here's where I get blurry: I
recognized the problem and started reaching for the power switch, but I
cannot recall whether the spindle stopped before I cut the power. There
was no damage to the endmill and only a small scratch on the vice. The
part was trashed, but that's no loss. Ironic given our posts just hours
ago!

With the power off and the spindle definitely not turning, I began
looking for gentle ways to get the vice away from the endmill. I
finally loosened the vice from the table and tapped it with a mallet.

After some draw filing on the vice, it appears to be fine. No circuit
breakers tripped. The mill runs properly.

The vice is aligned again. I had an awful time doing it, which I think
was because I didn't have the vice clamps tight enough, so my taps were
causing large translations. After fixing that, I did some test taps and
then did a pass just watching the ball of the DTI pass over the fixed
jaw of the vice, fixed a gross error and then started with the
indicator. Rather than try to spin the scale on the DTI, I moved the
table to offset the DTI and then finally to "zero" it when it was
aligned. Comments and better ideas are welcome.

Bill

Unless you do a considerable amount of work at an angle, it's usually a good
idea to use your vise sans the swivel base. They generally cost you
considerable time in setup, and, as you discovered, tend to be troublesome.
You almost always have doubt as to whether the vise is properly dialed, or
not. The worst part is you lose valuable space unnecessarily.

If, by chance, you happen to have keys for your vise, you can use them to
locate the vise almost perfectly, then do a fine adjustment with your
indicator. Add the swivel base when necessary. I never use one,
preferring to make my setups with a vernier bevel protractor when necessary.

Zeroing the indicator is of no concern, which likely stands to reason to
you. All you want to know is if there is movement of the hand, so
regardless of where it rests on the face, it makes no difference as long as
you know where you got started. Certainly no harm is setting it to zero,
but not necessary.

When you dial in a vise, or anything, for that matter, it's usually
desirable to have one side quite snug, and the other side just slightly less
tight, so when you rap the vise with your soft hammer, it moves only a thou
or so, pivoting around the bolt that is the tightest. As it gets near
perfect, snug them up and repeat if necessary. Dialing in anything that
is too loose is rather difficult because of the unwanted movement.

Setting the indicator by moving the table (or saddle) is perfectly
acceptable, assuming it doesn't affect your setup. It's often much easier
than moving the indicator a small amount to get the hand where you desire
it.

Harold

Harold,

Unless you do a considerable amount of work at an angle, it's usually a good
idea to use your vise sans the swivel base. They generally cost you
considerable time in setup, and, as you discovered, tend to be troublesome.
You almost always have doubt as to whether the vise is properly dialed, or
not. The worst part is you lose valuable space unnecessarily.

The vertical space has not been a problem so far, but it certainly could
be some day. I haven't removed it yet, but I suspect it will make the
vice significantly easier to move.


If, by chance, you happen to have keys for your vise, you can use them to
locate the vise almost perfectly, then do a fine adjustment with your
indicator.

I have keys but they are too small to be of such use. I plan to make
some as soon as I stumble onto some suitable metal.


Add the swivel base when necessary. I never use one,
preferring to make my setups with a vernier bevel protractor when necessary.

Unless I'm crossing up gizmos, that means you use clamps when you work
at an angle??

Re angles, it sounds as though measuring and aligning to them is
acceptable practice. I was wondering by analogy to construction
practices in drafting.


Zeroing the indicator is of no concern, which likely stands to reason to
you. All you want to know is if there is movement of the hand, so
regardless of where it rests on the face, it makes no difference as long as
you know where you got started. Certainly no harm is setting it to zero,
but not necessary.

Understood, but the "go halfway back to where you started" maneuvers are
simpler (and less error prone) if the reading is a nice number or at a
compass point, etc. The real reason to play with the offset is that the
DTI has a very limited range, so when in doubt, I unloaded it and put it
at a known location in its travel. However, I will admit that once I
got the bolt tightnesses about right, it got a lot easier.



When you dial in a vise, or anything, for that matter, it's usually
desirable to have one side quite snug, and the other side just slightly less
tight, so when you rap the vise with your soft hammer, it moves only a thou
or so, pivoting around the bolt that is the tightest.

I'll give it a try.


As it gets near
perfect, snug them up and repeat if necessary.

I understand the need to repeat, or at least check after tightening. Am
I correct in assuming that one would loosen a bolt instead of simply
swinging harder?


Dialing in anything that
is too loose is rather difficult because of the unwanted movement.

As I learned "the hard way" Thanks for confirming my suspicion.



Thanks!

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:


The vice is aligned again. I had an awful time doing it, which I think
was because I didn't have the vice clamps tight enough, so my taps were
causing large translations.


Bill:

Here is the meat of a post I made years ago in the CNC group.

Vise and part indicating.

What I do is clean the bottom of the vise and the machine table,
put
the vise on the table and move it around enough to scrape off any chips
into the t-slot grooves that might have gotten under it when lifting it
on the machine. I put the hold down bolts on and average out the play
forward and back and line it up as good as I can by eye. You're
supposed to clamp a large parallel block in the vise jaws simulating a
part and indicate off of that. I forego that step since Kurt vises are
pretty good about staying indicated whether there is a block in the vise
or not. I snug one bolt and start the indicator on the side of the jaw
closest to that bolt. I move the table and tap the vise while the table
is moving, and by the time the indicator has made one pass across (or
the vise has made one pass across the indicator - depending on your
point of view) it's pretty close. I then snug the OTHER bolt and loosen
the FIRST bolt and run the indicator back across fine tuning the vise as
it's moving. At the end of the travel it's usually indicated to a half
a thousandth. I tighten both bolts (you should have washers under the
nuts or the vise may move when you tighten the nuts. I do a final check
pass and that's it. It usually doesn't take more than two passes and a
final check pass to indicate a vise. DON'T wait to get to the other
end of the vise jaw to tap the vise, that is just a waste of time and
you'll end up having to move the table back and forth too many times
since the pivot point is not precisely at the end of the vise jaw but
beyond it a little.
The same thing with indicating parts, you snug one clamp and
start the
indicator near that clamp, tap your part while moving the table then
clamp the second bolt and loosen the first and tap while traveling back
the other way.
Some shops use key ways or dowel pins under the vises to align
them. I personally don't like that idea since the vise can be out a
thousandth
or two using keys and I hate the sound of a vise when it sometimes falls
into the keyway slot and you can never tell if some foreign material has
found it's way under the vise. If you have to angle the vise the key
ways are in the way. I rarely use those swivel bases that you can buy
with the vises, they're not accurate at all. If you need to angle the
vise I just use an angle block held in the the vise and clamp the vise
to the table as if it was a part you were holding down and indicate the
on the angle block. You can also use a sine bar to indicate on, laying
flat on the vise ways or in a pinch on top of the vise with the jaws
clamped tightly shut.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"Bill Schwab" wrote in message
k.net...
Harold,

Unless you do a considerable amount of work at an angle, it's usually a
good
idea to use your vise sans the swivel base. They generally cost you
considerable time in setup, and, as you discovered, tend to be
troublesome.
You almost always have doubt as to whether the vise is properly dialed,
or
not. The worst part is you lose valuable space unnecessarily.

The vertical space has not been a problem so far, but it certainly could
be some day. I haven't removed it yet, but I suspect it will make the
vice significantly easier to move.

It often is more precise, too. Each time you add a lift to a setup, you
have more chances of introducing error. Could be a problem for difficult
work. Regards handling, if you had a large vise, your point would be
dead on. The large Kurt vises are tough to handle alone---------which I
recognized when I bought my 5" model, now obsolete. For small work, it's
the best of all worlds.


If, by chance, you happen to have keys for your vise, you can use them
to
locate the vise almost perfectly, then do a fine adjustment with your
indicator.

I have keys but they are too small to be of such use. I plan to make
some as soon as I stumble onto some suitable metal.

By banking off one edge of the T slot, you can still use them to get the
vise close, so even they can save some time.

Where I was trained, all the keys were removed from vises and we were not
permitted to use them. They wanted the vise dialed in each time it was set
up, so that forced the issue. I rely on the keys now, but I'm not turning
out critical work (just hobby stuff), but it's a good policy to dial the
fixed jaw each time the vise in installed. Mine will repeat within a thou
using the keys, which is one reason I've become somewhat lax in retirement.



Add the swivel base when necessary. I never use one,
preferring to make my setups with a vernier bevel protractor when
necessary.

Unless I'm crossing up gizmos, that means you use clamps when you work
at an angle??

Yes, even when installing the vise at an angle. The bolt holes don't
always work out otherwise. That offers some nice advantages, like placing
the vise where it is in a better relationship with the spindle if it was
otherwise mounted with the swivel base. Not a big deal normally, but it
opens the door to options that otherwise would not be available. It's
more a personal choice than anything. I don't see a right or wrong in the
issue.


Re angles, it sounds as though measuring and aligning to them is
acceptable practice. I was wondering by analogy to construction
practices in drafting.


Frankly, it's the only way to make a setup. There's no way in hell I'd
trust the marks on a vise and swivel base, no more than I'd trust the index
on a mill or lathe compound. At best, they're a reference point, nothing
more. By using a vernier protractor, you can usually achieve 15 minutes
of angle with little effort. That requires the protractor to be properly
supported so the angle isn't influenced by tilting. When the angle is
critical, it is measured after a cut, then corrected as necessary. On the
other hand, if the angle isn't critical, there's certainly nothing wrong
with trusting marks on the vise or machine, assuming you have a clue as to
their accuracy.


Zeroing the indicator is of no concern, which likely stands to reason to
you. All you want to know is if there is movement of the hand, so
regardless of where it rests on the face, it makes no difference as long
as
you know where you got started. Certainly no harm is setting it to
zero,
but not necessary.

Understood, but the "go halfway back to where you started" maneuvers are
simpler (and less error prone) if the reading is a nice number or at a
compass point, etc.

Agreed. It's particularly important when you sweeping a bore, where you
view the indicator backwards when it's too the rear. My policy is to use
any method that minimizes the chance for me to screw up. When you use an
indicator daily, it becomes routine and you don't give it much thought. Now
that I use mine very infrequently, the fine edge I used to enjoy is gone. I
have to think harder, and often employ methods you suggest.


The real reason to play with the offset is that the
DTI has a very limited range, so when in doubt, I unloaded it and put it
at a known location in its travel. However, I will admit that once I
got the bolt tightnesses about right, it got a lot easier.

Oh, yeah! If you work with loose bolts, it's like a dog chasing its tail
..



When you dial in a vise, or anything, for that matter, it's usually
desirable to have one side quite snug, and the other side just slightly
less
tight, so when you rap the vise with your soft hammer, it moves only a
thou
or so, pivoting around the bolt that is the tightest.

I'll give it a try.


As it gets near
perfect, snug them up and repeat if necessary.

I understand the need to repeat, or at least check after tightening. Am
I correct in assuming that one would loosen a bolt instead of simply
swinging harder?

Depends. If you need a half thou, and you have a decent soft hammer (Nupla
Flex), you can often get the half thou you need with a swift blow. The
snap often permits a miniscule movement, but I never swing like I'm trying
to break things. It really helps to have a firm understanding of what
"tight" means. My years in precision grinding really helped in that
regard. I don't over tighten fasteners, and I also don't have problems
with things moving. Some guys use way too much force on fasteners, in
which case my method wouldn't work.



Dialing in anything that
is too loose is rather difficult because of the unwanted movement.

As I learned "the hard way" Thanks for confirming my suspicion.



Thanks!

Welcome!

Harold

Bill

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:13:03 -0700, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:

Depends. If you need a half thou, and you have a decent soft hammer (Nupla
Flex), you can often get the half thou you need with a swift blow. The
snap often permits a miniscule movement, but I never swing like I'm trying
to break things. It really helps to have a firm understanding of what
"tight" means. My years in precision grinding really helped in that
regard. I don't over tighten fasteners, and I also don't have problems
with things moving. Some guys use way too much force on fasteners, in
which case my method wouldn't work.

Too much tightening often induces a fair amount of stress, bending and
so forth, both on the fixture and on the workpiece. Sigh...nothing
worse then doing what you think is a marvelous job..and when you
loosen the vise jaws...things come aglay. Been there..done
that...looked really stupid.

I use a lot of plain yellow legal pad paper under things, in the shop.
mill vises, quick change tool holders (KDK) on the lathe, etc. Put a
piece of that paper under something you dont want to move..and it
wont, and you dont have to use a cheater pipe to tighten things up
anymore.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

I use a lot of plain yellow legal pad paper under things, in the shop.
mill vises, quick change tool holders (KDK) on the lathe, etc. Put a
piece of that paper under something you dont want to move..and it
wont, and you dont have to use a cheater pipe to tighten things up
anymore.

Interesting. What about water/acid/etc. content?

Bill

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:35:44 GMT, Bill Schwab
wrote:

I use a lot of plain yellow legal pad paper under things, in the shop.
mill vises, quick change tool holders (KDK) on the lathe, etc. Put a
piece of that paper under something you dont want to move..and it
wont, and you dont have to use a cheater pipe to tighten things up
anymore.

Interesting. What about water/acid/etc. content?

Bill

It doesnt seem to bother it much. Try it for yourself.
I rather suspect liquids soak in and swell it up a smidge, making it
hold even tighter. Its long been a practice to put a couple bits of
cardboard under forklift forks to keep Stuff from sliding on them.
Perhaps its the same princible?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Let the record show that Gunner Asch wrote back on
Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:23:21 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:35:44 GMT, Bill Schwab
wrote:

I use a lot of plain yellow legal pad paper under things, in the shop.
mill vises, quick change tool holders (KDK) on the lathe, etc. Put a
piece of that paper under something you dont want to move..and it
wont, and you dont have to use a cheater pipe to tighten things up
anymore.

Interesting. What about water/acid/etc. content?

Bill

It doesnt seem to bother it much. Try it for yourself.
I rather suspect liquids soak in and swell it up a smidge, making it
hold even tighter. Its long been a practice to put a couple bits of
cardboard under forklift forks to keep Stuff from sliding on them.
Perhaps its the same princible?

Sounds interesting. I'm wondering about "production" where I have 500
six inch lengths of T extrusion to mill (two little parts each), and I
don't want to have them come out of the fixture.

I think I stick with making sure I get the vise tight. Two drinks
ought to do it, no?


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:31:10 GMT, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the record show that Gunner Asch wrote back on
Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:23:21 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:35:44 GMT, Bill Schwab
wrote:

I use a lot of plain yellow legal pad paper under things, in the shop.
mill vises, quick change tool holders (KDK) on the lathe, etc. Put a
piece of that paper under something you dont want to move..and it
wont, and you dont have to use a cheater pipe to tighten things up
anymore.

Interesting. What about water/acid/etc. content?

Bill

It doesnt seem to bother it much. Try it for yourself.
I rather suspect liquids soak in and swell it up a smidge, making it
hold even tighter. Its long been a practice to put a couple bits of
cardboard under forklift forks to keep Stuff from sliding on them.
Perhaps its the same princible?

Sounds interesting. I'm wondering about "production" where I have 500
six inch lengths of T extrusion to mill (two little parts each), and I
don't want to have them come out of the fixture.

Ive used paper in vise jaws, particularly when working with tool
steels.

I think I stick with making sure I get the vise tight. Two drinks
ought to do it, no?

Pour a couple shots of Patron in the coolant, kills the biologicals
and removes backlash.

tschus
pyotr

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Bob, absolutely beautiful machine work.
Bill.

wrote:

Bob, absolutely beautiful machine work.


Bill:

I assume you're referring to the stuff on my home page. I appreciate
and thank you for those kind words.


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Let the record show that Gunner Asch wrote back on
Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:51:13 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:31:10 GMT, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Let the record show that Gunner Asch wrote back on
Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:23:21 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:35:44 GMT, Bill Schwab
wrote:

I use a lot of plain yellow legal pad paper under things, in the shop.
mill vises, quick change tool holders (KDK) on the lathe, etc. Put a
piece of that paper under something you dont want to move..and it
wont, and you dont have to use a cheater pipe to tighten things up
anymore.

Interesting. What about water/acid/etc. content?

Bill

It doesnt seem to bother it much. Try it for yourself.
I rather suspect liquids soak in and swell it up a smidge, making it
hold even tighter. Its long been a practice to put a couple bits of
cardboard under forklift forks to keep Stuff from sliding on them.
Perhaps its the same princible?

Sounds interesting. I'm wondering about "production" where I have 500
six inch lengths of T extrusion to mill (two little parts each), and I
don't want to have them come out of the fixture.

Ive used paper in vise jaws, particularly when working with tool
steels.

I'm working with aluminum (arrow space). Last night, the vise had to
be set to 70 foot pounds, so as to not damage the finish. This is a
"cosmetic" fixture, meaning it will be seen by paying passengers.

I think I stick with making sure I get the vise tight. Two drinks
ought to do it, no?
Pour a couple shots of Patron in the coolant, kills the biologicals
and removes backlash.

I've discovered that if you replace the small aperture nozzles with
larger ones, you can keep coolant on the work, _and_ not splatter coolant
everywhere, and wash the chips away, and aerates the coolant to prevent the
funky smell. Gives me something to watch, too.

I'm happy, I'm making stuff, and getting paid too.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."