Anyone know when the steam pressure gauge was invented? Could early
steam engineers see what pressure they had in their boilers?

Don Stauffer wrote:

Anyone know when the steam pressure gauge was invented? Could early
steam engineers see what pressure they had in their boilers?

The Bourdon tube gauge was patented in France in 1849 and Ashcroft in
the
US started manufacture in 1852..

Tom

AFAIK, the earliest ones were mercury columns or water columns. Then pretty
soon Mr. Bourdon camed along with his little invention.

Bob Swinney
"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
...
Anyone know when the steam pressure gauge was invented? Could early steam
engineers see what pressure they had in their boilers?

"Robert Swinney" wrote: AFAIK, the earliest ones were mercury columns or
water columns. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Want to make yourself smile? Picture a water column attached to a steam
boiler at 150 psi.*
________________________
* Water column about 300 ft tall.

In article ,
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

"Robert Swinney" wrote: AFAIK, the earliest ones were mercury columns or
water columns. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Want to make yourself smile? Picture a water column attached to a steam
boiler at 150 psi.*
________________________
* Water column about 300 ft tall.

High-pressure steam only came (in the 1800s) after James Watt, who
abhored high-pressure steam because of the then considerable danger from
boiler explosions. It took a long time for steel quality and boiler
safety systems to mature enough that a 150 psi boiler was practical for
general use.

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

"Robert Swinney" wrote: AFAIK, the earliest ones were mercury columns
or
water columns. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Want to make yourself smile? Picture a water column attached to a steam
boiler at 150 psi.*
________________________
* Water column about 300 ft tall.

High-pressure steam only came (in the 1800s) after James Watt, who
abhored high-pressure steam because of the then considerable danger from
boiler explosions. It took a long time for steel quality and boiler
safety systems to mature enough that a 150 psi boiler was practical for
general use.

Right on Joe! And didja ever wonder about all the tall smokestacks? Musta
been where they hid the gauges.

Bob Swinney
"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

"Robert Swinney" wrote: AFAIK, the earliest ones were mercury columns
or
water columns. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Want to make yourself smile? Picture a water column attached to a steam
boiler at 150 psi.*
________________________
* Water column about 300 ft tall.

High-pressure steam only came (in the 1800s) after James Watt, who
abhored high-pressure steam because of the then considerable danger from
boiler explosions. It took a long time for steel quality and boiler
safety systems to mature enough that a 150 psi boiler was practical for
general use.

Actually, the boiler pressure on those early coal lift systems was more like
10psi. That was why the cyulinders were so large on the engines. Today,
we'd consider such a pressure to be basically worthless but back then, even
that little pressure was a great improvement over using horses to do the
lifting.
They also never thought of superheating the steam to gain additonal work out
of the steam but that is another thing.

--
Why do penguins walk so far to get to their nesting grounds?

If I remember correctly, the mercury gauge on Stephenson's Rocket, was on
the outside of the stack!

Steve R.


"Robert Swinney" wrote in message
...
Right on Joe! And didja ever wonder about all the tall smokestacks?
Musta been where they hid the gauges.

Bob Swinney
"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:

"Robert Swinney" wrote: AFAIK, the earliest ones were mercury columns
or
water columns. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Want to make yourself smile? Picture a water column attached to a steam
boiler at 150 psi.*
________________________
* Water column about 300 ft tall.

High-pressure steam only came (in the 1800s) after James Watt, who
abhored high-pressure steam because of the then considerable danger from
boiler explosions. It took a long time for steel quality and boiler
safety systems to mature enough that a 150 psi boiler was practical for
general use.

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:


"Robert Swinney" wrote: AFAIK, the earliest ones were mercury columns or
water columns. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Want to make yourself smile? Picture a water column attached to a steam
boiler at 150 psi.*
________________________
* Water column about 300 ft tall.


High-pressure steam only came (in the 1800s) after James Watt, who
abhored high-pressure steam because of the then considerable danger from
boiler explosions. It took a long time for steel quality and boiler
safety systems to mature enough that a 150 psi boiler was practical for
general use.


Even though Watt hated high pressure steam, Oliver Evens in US was a
proponent even before 1800, as were others around the world. Thus, from
previous answers, I see that there was a gap of five decades between the
development of high pressure steam and a decent gauge. Maybe that helps
explain the number of boiler explosions :-) What I was just reading
recently indicates pressures in 1820-1830 on western riverboats was
about 30-40 psi, but someone (forgot who) had a 1850 psi system by
around 1850. Sure hope he had a gauge on those! Anyway, that is why my
question, and thanks for the answers, guys. Just what I was looking
for. Now, how early were safety valves. Seems to me I remember reading
that they were ealier, before 1800 by quite a bit. May well depend on
what TYPE of safety valve, however.

Don,

You are getting into "chicken and egg" territory now. Without having done a
Google on it, I would say weight-lift steam pressure gauges came along well
before water column gauges. As an intuitive guess (aren't all guesses
intuitive) I presume a steam boiler with a proper weight-lift safety valve
would be self-regulating to such an extent that a pressure gauge would not
be absolutely necessary.

Bob Swinney
"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
...
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"Leo Lichtman" wrote:


"Robert Swinney" wrote: AFAIK, the earliest ones were mercury columns
or water columns. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Want to make yourself smile? Picture a water column attached to a steam
boiler at 150 psi.*
________________________
* Water column about 300 ft tall.


High-pressure steam only came (in the 1800s) after James Watt, who
abhored high-pressure steam because of the then considerable danger from
boiler explosions. It took a long time for steel quality and boiler
safety systems to mature enough that a 150 psi boiler was practical for
general use.


Even though Watt hated high pressure steam, Oliver Evens in US was a
proponent even before 1800, as were others around the world. Thus, from
previous answers, I see that there was a gap of five decades between the
development of high pressure steam and a decent gauge. Maybe that helps
explain the number of boiler explosions :-) What I was just reading
recently indicates pressures in 1820-1830 on western riverboats was about
30-40 psi, but someone (forgot who) had a 1850 psi system by around 1850.
Sure hope he had a gauge on those! Anyway, that is why my question, and
thanks for the answers, guys. Just what I was looking for. Now, how
early were safety valves. Seems to me I remember reading that they were
ealier, before 1800 by quite a bit. May well depend on what TYPE of
safety valve, however.

You'll find all sorts of references to tying down safety valves in the
old literature on river boats. That was also the pressure gauge,
pre-Bourdon tube. The Smithsonian used to have some of the old stuff
on display, the valve was usually a plunger and lever with an
adjustable weight on the outboard end. The example I saw was pretty
corroded, I imagine, though, that there were markings on the weight
beam for boiler pressure. Life could get pretty exciting for the
boiler room crew if the plunger stuck.

No boiler level water-glass gauges, either, just try-cocks.

Stan

Boiler trivia: It wasn't because of a tied-down safety valve, but the worst
loss of life to a U.S. maritime disaster was the boiler explosion on the
Sultana in 1865. The Sultana, a govt. contract, ex-luxury steamer carried a
vast overload of US prisoners of war, recently freed from Southern prisons.
There wasn't a lot of news coverage of it at the time, certainly no headline
coverage, because it happened the same day Lincoln was assasinated.
Reportedly the boiler blew at the site of a welded patch only a few days
old. The Sultana's boilers may have been over-pressured to accommodate the
overload of human cargo. There's a good chance the safetys may have been
maladjusted.

Bob Swinney
wrote in message
ups.com...
You'll find all sorts of references to tying down safety valves in the
old literature on river boats. That was also the pressure gauge,
pre-Bourdon tube. The Smithsonian used to have some of the old stuff
on display, the valve was usually a plunger and lever with an
adjustable weight on the outboard end. The example I saw was pretty
corroded, I imagine, though, that there were markings on the weight
beam for boiler pressure. Life could get pretty exciting for the
boiler room crew if the plunger stuck.

No boiler level water-glass gauges, either, just try-cocks.

Stan

Robert Swinney wrote:
Don,

You are getting into "chicken and egg" territory now. Without having done a
Google on it, I would say weight-lift steam pressure gauges came along well
before water column gauges. As an intuitive guess (aren't all guesses
intuitive) I presume a steam boiler with a proper weight-lift safety valve
would be self-regulating to such an extent that a pressure gauge would not
be absolutely necessary.

Bob Swinney

But then, when did those safety valves come along?

wrote:
You'll find all sorts of references to tying down safety valves in the
old literature on river boats. That was also the pressure gauge,
pre-Bourdon tube. The Smithsonian used to have some of the old stuff
on display, the valve was usually a plunger and lever with an
adjustable weight on the outboard end. The example I saw was pretty
corroded, I imagine, though, that there were markings on the weight
beam for boiler pressure. Life could get pretty exciting for the
boiler room crew if the plunger stuck.

No boiler level water-glass gauges, either, just try-cocks.

Stan


But when did those style safety valves come along? Much of the racing
and stuff that I heard about was in later eras, Civil war and after.
Don't know if the first western river boats even HAD safety valves. I
think it was well after mid century before feds REQUIRED them-
apparently a lot of steamers didn't have them.

Robert Swinney wrote:
Boiler trivia: It wasn't because of a tied-down safety valve, but the worst
loss of life to a U.S. maritime disaster was the boiler explosion on the
Sultana in 1865. The Sultana, a govt. contract, ex-luxury steamer carried a
vast overload of US prisoners of war, recently freed from Southern prisons.
There wasn't a lot of news coverage of it at the time, certainly no headline
coverage, because it happened the same day Lincoln was assasinated.
Reportedly the boiler blew at the site of a welded patch only a few days
old. The Sultana's boilers may have been over-pressured to accommodate the
overload of human cargo. There's a good chance the safetys may have been
maladjusted.

Bob Swinney
wrote in message

Or the water may have gotten low. On many boiler/safety valve setups,
adding water to an overheated boiler that had gotten too low would
generate steam faster than the safety valve could handle, and boiler
would blow, safety valve or no safety valve.

I watched a video about steam locomotives the other day. The top of the
firebox is normally below the water level, but if the water got low, this
steel plate got uncovered. This would cause it to get red hot, and a boiler
explosion would result. This would not be prevented by a relief valve or a
pressure gauge. The sight glasses were the only protection.

In article , Leo
Lichtman says...

I watched a video about steam locomotives the other day. The top of the
firebox is normally below the water level, but if the water got low, this
steel plate got uncovered. This would cause it to get red hot, and a boiler
explosion would result. This would not be prevented by a relief valve or a
pressure gauge. The sight glasses were the only protection.

This is a crown sheet explosion. The top of the firebox is called
the crown sheet and if this becomes uncovered, or if the crownsheet
stay bolts erode away, bad things happened.

Recently several people were killed at a fair in Ohio because
a poorly maintained steam tractor blew up that way.

Jim


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==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Leo Lichtman wrote:

I watched a video about steam locomotives the other day. The top of the
firebox is normally below the water level, but if the water got low, this
steel plate got uncovered. This would cause it to get red hot, and a boiler
explosion would result. This would not be prevented by a relief valve or a
pressure gauge. The sight glasses were the only protection.

Not just locomotives. Steam tractors have
the same design and issue.

The explosion usually does not occur while
the engine is stationary. Its the lurching
start or stop that splashes a quantity of
water onto the red-hot steel, flashes it to
steam and causes a pressure surge.

Don sez:
". . . Or the water may have gotten low. On many boiler/safety valve
setups,
adding water to an overheated boiler that had gotten too low would
generate steam faster than the safety valve could handle, and boiler would
blow, safety valve or no safety valve. . . ."

That statement, while fundamentally true, only begins to touch on the main
cause of boiler explosions. The most probable cause is insufficient water
level to cover the crown sheet. This was mentioned in several other posts,
following. Water added to an overheated boiler is not liable to cause an
explosion because the boiler feed mechanism is not capable of charging the
boiler fast enough. True enough; water splashed onto red-hot surface will
generate large amounts of steam but safety valves are designed to
accommodate ordinary excesses. Probability has it that a boiler would have
generated enough pressure to "pop" the safety valve long before becoming hot
enough to adversely react to any reasonable amount of new feedwater.

The crown sheet forms the top of the furnace in a typical "enclosed furnace"
type of boiler. As the water level becomes low, the crown sheet is
eventually exposed to the intense heat of the furnace, with no cooling water
above it. The crown sheet is exposed to full heat of the furnace with no
cooling water on the other side until it finally burns through. What's the
big deal? Won't the ruptured crown sheet let the water flood into the
furnace and put out the fire? Here, in a nutshell, is what happens: The
water level is already low in the boiler, probably less than 1/2 volume and
it is boiling furiously, in contact with the flues and hot sides of the
furnace. The water temperature is much hotter than its normal,
unpressurized boiling point. As the crown sheet bursts it releases some of
the boiler pressure but does nothing to release the energy contained in the
boiling water - at that temperature. Now with pressure slightly reduced,
the heat energy contained in the water causes more rapid boiling, more
pressure and in a brief instant, Boom! Flash effect. As the opening in the
crown sheet increases, pressure drops slightly, more and more water flashes
into steam, etc. etc. A boiler doesn't burst in the manner of a balloon
filled with air. A boiler explosion is more like the bursting of a bomb -
all the energy contained in the heated water flashes into steam. Generally,
boiler explosions are the result of a weakened crown sheet.

Bob Swinney






"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
...
Robert Swinney wrote:
Boiler trivia: It wasn't because of a tied-down safety valve, but the
worst loss of life to a U.S. maritime disaster was the boiler explosion
on the Sultana in 1865. The Sultana, a govt. contract, ex-luxury steamer
carried a vast overload of US prisoners of war, recently freed from
Southern prisons. There wasn't a lot of news coverage of it at the time,
certainly no headline coverage, because it happened the same day Lincoln
was assasinated. Reportedly the boiler blew at the site of a welded patch
only a few days old. The Sultana's boilers may have been over-pressured
to accommodate the overload of human cargo. There's a good chance the
safetys may have been maladjusted.

Bob Swinney
wrote in message

In article , Robert Swinney says...

The crown sheet forms the top of the furnace in a typical "enclosed furnace"
type of boiler. As the water level becomes low, the crown sheet is
eventually exposed to the intense heat of the furnace, with no cooling water
above it. The crown sheet is exposed to full heat of the furnace with no
cooling water on the other side until it finally burns through. What's the
big deal? Won't the ruptured crown sheet let the water flood into the
furnace and put out the fire? Here, in a nutshell, is what happens: The
water level is already low in the boiler, probably less than 1/2 volume and
it is boiling furiously, in contact with the flues and hot sides of the
furnace. The water temperature is much hotter than its normal,
unpressurized boiling point. As the crown sheet bursts it releases some of
the boiler pressure but does nothing to release the energy contained in the
boiling water - at that temperature. Now with pressure slightly reduced,
the heat energy contained in the water causes more rapid boiling, more
pressure and in a brief instant, Boom! Flash effect. As the opening in the
crown sheet increases, pressure drops slightly, more and more water flashes
into steam, etc. etc. A boiler doesn't burst in the manner of a balloon
filled with air. A boiler explosion is more like the bursting of a bomb -
all the energy contained in the heated water flashes into steam. Generally,
boiler explosions are the result of a weakened crown sheet.

Good description. The feature I heard about that typically accompanies
crown sheet explosions is that the boiler is invariably found to be
completely empty of water. This is not because it was run dry and then
blew up, quite the opposite. All of the water inside will flash to
vapor when it blows up.

The fatal explosion is ohio had been described with photos, and the
crownsheet stay bolts were so badly eroded it would never have passed
any kind of public safety inspection. I think the bolts were supposed
to be 3/4 inch diameter, they were necked down to less than 1/4 inch
in some spots.

Interestingly at the CAMA fair a few weekends ago the had a steam tractor
undergoing restoration. I noticed the inspection port for the crownsheet
stays was opened up, and could not resist peeking inside.

All of the staybolts seemed to be full size for their entire length,
and in very good condition.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Low pressure steam won't empty a boiler in an explosion as there isn't
enough energy in the heat of the water to do that but higher pressure
boilers do contain enough energy to vaporize all of the water to steam.
One of the things that I have found amazing while dealing with steam stuff
is the number of idiots that are quite cavilier about the explosive
qualities of steam when combined with low water conditions in boilers. I've
shut boilers off (to the irritation of the owner of the boiler) because I
couldn't see any water in the waterglass. Every single one of those idiots
stated that the boiler crown sheet is well below the bottom of the glass and
you can run the boiler even tho there is no water in the glass.
With all of the knowledge of how boiler explosions happen form 200 years of
steam work today and having such an attitude, you can imagine what it was
like back then in the first few years with people that really had no real
idea of why boilers exploded.

--
Why do penguins walk so far to get to their nesting grounds?