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  #1   Report Post  
Steve
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

How is the degree above centerline adjusted on Aloris type quick
change tool holders? Do you just adjust the toolholder and then the
toolbit is say... 5 degress above centerline but is still
perpendicular to the ways?I am asking because I am getting ready to
buy one after everyones suggestions and on the lantern type you set
the 5 degrees above centerline for mild steel by adjusting the tool
holder in the post with the rocker. This puts the tool at an angle to
the ways. Does it make a difference as long it is the proper amount of
degrees above center line for the material being cut whether it is
perpendicular or at an angle? It seems that perpendicular would be
much more beneficial. Thanks for any help. -Steve
  #2   Report Post  
PrecisionMachinisT
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders


"Steve" wrote in message
om...
How is the degree above centerline adjusted on Aloris type quick
change tool holders? Do you just adjust the toolholder and then the
toolbit is say... 5 degress above centerline but is still
perpendicular to the ways?I am asking because I am getting ready to
buy one after everyones suggestions and on the lantern type you set
the 5 degrees above centerline for mild steel by adjusting the tool
holder in the post with the rocker. This puts the tool at an angle to
the ways. Does it make a difference as long it is the proper amount of
degrees above center line for the material being cut whether it is
perpendicular or at an angle? It seems that perpendicular would be
much more beneficial. Thanks for any help. -Steve


Steve,

The most common setup is to simply put the tool tip on center, and if any
top rakes are desired the tool topside of the toolbit is ground to suit.

As to the brazed toolbits, they are just put on center and the top rakes are
zero, unless the tool is designed with built-in rake......

Now with all that said :

========

( BEGIN SELF LESS SALES PLUG )

We had made up quite a few of the BXA 2 style holders in our shop during
slow times to sell on ebay and I got maybe 30 or so left.....I just mainly
got tired of all the hassle of dealing with the paperwork and emails ect.
involved with the ebay sales.......

Very nice tools and CNC machined on critical areas with light surface grind
elsewhere for appearance.......4130 American steel....The finish is hot oil
and they are NOT hardened.....

I think she has em listed for 22 bucks each plus shipping......

We have sold close to a hundred of em over the last couple years and so far
not had a single complaint....

I know at least a couple folks on this board have purchased from us and
likely there are others as well-- Im not gonna get into name
dropping.......let em step up to the plate if they like and give a frank
assessment of the quality on their own accord if they feel so inclined......

Anyways......

If anyone is interested drop me an email if you want more info....

Oh, and heres a hotlink to a ( admittedly not so great ) photo :

http://www.kalamaprecision.com/gallery/Tool%20Post.jpg

Note:

These are the only style we have--but anyone familiar with using the system
knows the straight holder is the one it seems you always wish you had more
of G

--

SVL


  #3   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article , Steve says...

How is the degree above centerline adjusted on Aloris type quick
change tool holders?


The tool holder has a sort of setscrew stop that gives
nearly micrometer accuracy in setting the height of
the tool above the bed.

The angle of the tool is adjusted by loosening the
hold down bolt and turning by hand.

They are independently adjustable.

Typically the cutting edge is set as nearly on center
as you can. The best way to do this is to face off
a piece of stock - when the tip of the tool does
not leave a tit on the end of the stock (too low)
then it's right.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #4   Report Post  
Grant Erwin
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

Look closely at a picture. On top of a toolholder is a vertical threaded
rod. On that rod is a flat round knurled nut held in place with a jam nut.
The toolholder is positioned vertically by the position of the nut.

In practice, if the tool is a mite too low, the main clamping arm
is loosened, and the nut screwed down just a skoach, then the main
clamping arm is tightened again. Once this is set, it stays set. You
can take the toolholder off, set it on the bench, come back next week
and put it back on, and it's right at the height you left it.

Grant

Steve wrote:
How is the degree above centerline adjusted on Aloris type quick
change tool holders? Do you just adjust the toolholder and then the
toolbit is say... 5 degress above centerline but is still
perpendicular to the ways?I am asking because I am getting ready to
buy one after everyones suggestions and on the lantern type you set
the 5 degrees above centerline for mild steel by adjusting the tool
holder in the post with the rocker. This puts the tool at an angle to
the ways. Does it make a difference as long it is the proper amount of
degrees above center line for the material being cut whether it is
perpendicular or at an angle? It seems that perpendicular would be
much more beneficial. Thanks for any help. -Steve


  #5   Report Post  
tomcas
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

Steve wrote:

How is the degree above centerline adjusted on Aloris type quick
change tool holders? Do you just adjust the toolholder and then the
toolbit is say... 5 degress above centerline but is still
perpendicular to the ways?I am asking because I am getting ready to
buy one after everyones suggestions and on the lantern type you set
the 5 degrees above centerline for mild steel by adjusting the tool
holder in the post with the rocker. This puts the tool at an angle to
the ways. Does it make a difference as long it is the proper amount of
degrees above center line for the material being cut whether it is
perpendicular or at an angle? It seems that perpendicular would be
much more beneficial. Thanks for any help. -Steve


If you are facing to the center of a part and you don't want a
protuberance then set the cutting edge exactly on center by adjusting
the knurled height nut while the wedge is unlocked. If you are not
facing to the center then remember- turn below - bore above. The center
line that is. By about 10 thousandths. This will ensure the cutter
always has ample clearance and cuts instead of rubs. I use a depth part
of a dial caliper to measure this setting off the end face of a known
diameter. One word of advice- don't buy the cheap Chinese holders like
Phase One brand. They are absolute crap. Invest in a real Aloris brand
and you will not regret it.

--
**remove NospaM from email address to reply**



  #6   Report Post  
Bob Swinney
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

Tomcas sez:

"One word of advice- don't buy the cheap Chinese holders like Phase One
brand. They are absolute crap. Invest in a real Aloris brand and you will
not regret it."

Hhmmmnnn, I wonder about that there "Phase One brand". Does that mean that
Phase Two brand is twice as crappy?

Bob Swinney

"tomcas" wrote in message
...
Steve wrote:

How is the degree above centerline adjusted on Aloris type quick
change tool holders? Do you just adjust the toolholder and then the
toolbit is say... 5 degress above centerline but is still
perpendicular to the ways?I am asking because I am getting ready to
buy one after everyones suggestions and on the lantern type you set
the 5 degrees above centerline for mild steel by adjusting the tool
holder in the post with the rocker. This puts the tool at an angle to
the ways. Does it make a difference as long it is the proper amount of
degrees above center line for the material being cut whether it is
perpendicular or at an angle? It seems that perpendicular would be
much more beneficial. Thanks for any help. -Steve


If you are facing to the center of a part and you don't want a
protuberance then set the cutting edge exactly on center by adjusting
the knurled height nut while the wedge is unlocked. If you are not
facing to the center then remember- turn below - bore above. The center
line that is. By about 10 thousandths. This will ensure the cutter
always has ample clearance and cuts instead of rubs. I use a depth part
of a dial caliper to measure this setting off the end face of a known
diameter. --
**remove NospaM from email address to reply**



  #7   Report Post  
michael
 
Posts: n/a
Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message
om...
How is the degree above centerline adjusted on Aloris type quick
change tool holders? Do you just adjust the toolholder and then the
toolbit is say... 5 degress above centerline but is still
perpendicular to the ways?I am asking because I am getting ready to
buy one after everyones suggestions and on the lantern type you set
the 5 degrees above centerline for mild steel by adjusting the tool
holder in the post with the rocker. This puts the tool at an angle to
the ways. Does it make a difference as long it is the proper amount of
degrees above center line for the material being cut whether it is
perpendicular or at an angle? It seems that perpendicular would be
much more beneficial. Thanks for any help. -Steve


Steve,

The most common setup is to simply put the tool tip on center, and if any
top rakes are desired the tool topside of the toolbit is ground to suit.

As to the brazed toolbits, they are just put on center and the top rakes are
zero, unless the tool is designed with built-in rake......

Now with all that said :

========

( BEGIN SELF LESS SALES PLUG )

We had made up quite a few of the BXA 2 style holders in our shop during
slow times to sell on ebay and I got maybe 30 or so left.....I just mainly
got tired of all the hassle of dealing with the paperwork and emails ect.
involved with the ebay sales.......

Very nice tools and CNC machined on critical areas with light surface grind
elsewhere for appearance.......4130 American steel....The finish is hot oil
and they are NOT hardened.....

I think she has em listed for 22 bucks each plus shipping......

We have sold close to a hundred of em over the last couple years and so far
not had a single complaint....

I know at least a couple folks on this board have purchased from us and
likely there are others as well-- Im not gonna get into name
dropping.......let em step up to the plate if they like and give a frank
assessment of the quality on their own accord if they feel so inclined......

Anyways......

If anyone is interested drop me an email if you want more info....

Oh, and heres a hotlink to a ( admittedly not so great ) photo :

http://www.kalamaprecision.com/gallery/Tool%20Post.jpg

Note:

These are the only style we have--but anyone familiar with using the system
knows the straight holder is the one it seems you always wish you had more
of G

--

SVL


Only 30 left? Instead of a testimonial, maybe I can get you to send me a couple
more? I'll email addy if you don't still have it.

michael


  #8   Report Post  
\PrecisionMachinisT\
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders


"michael" wrote in message
...
PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message
om...
How is the degree above centerline adjusted on Aloris type quick
change tool holders? Do you just adjust the toolholder and then the
toolbit is say... 5 degress above centerline but is still
perpendicular to the ways?I am asking because I am getting ready to
buy one after everyones suggestions and on the lantern type you set
the 5 degrees above centerline for mild steel by adjusting the tool
holder in the post with the rocker. This puts the tool at an angle to
the ways. Does it make a difference as long it is the proper amount of
degrees above center line for the material being cut whether it is
perpendicular or at an angle? It seems that perpendicular would be
much more beneficial. Thanks for any help. -Steve


Steve,

The most common setup is to simply put the tool tip on center, and if

any
top rakes are desired the tool topside of the toolbit is ground to suit.

As to the brazed toolbits, they are just put on center and the top rakes

are
zero, unless the tool is designed with built-in rake......

Now with all that said :

========

( BEGIN SELF LESS SALES PLUG )

We had made up quite a few of the BXA 2 style holders in our shop during
slow times to sell on ebay and I got maybe 30 or so left.....I just

mainly
got tired of all the hassle of dealing with the paperwork and emails

ect.
involved with the ebay sales.......

Very nice tools and CNC machined on critical areas with light surface

grind
elsewhere for appearance.......4130 American steel....The finish is hot

oil
and they are NOT hardened.....

I think she has em listed for 22 bucks each plus shipping......

We have sold close to a hundred of em over the last couple years and so

far
not had a single complaint....

I know at least a couple folks on this board have purchased from us and
likely there are others as well-- Im not gonna get into name
dropping.......let em step up to the plate if they like and give a frank
assessment of the quality on their own accord if they feel so

inclined......

Anyways......

If anyone is interested drop me an email if you want more info....

Oh, and heres a hotlink to a ( admittedly not so great ) photo :

http://www.kalamaprecision.com/gallery/Tool%20Post.jpg

Note:

These are the only style we have--but anyone familiar with using the

system
knows the straight holder is the one it seems you always wish you had

more
of G

--

SVL


Only 30 left? Instead of a testimonial, maybe I can get you to send me a

couple
more? I'll email addy if you don't still have it.

michael


Thanks, Michael.

I will have her ship em out, she probly has the address on file.

--

SVL




  #9   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article ,
tomcas wrote:

You've already covered the hows of setting center height quite
well, so I've just snipped that part.

[ ... ]

One word of advice- don't buy the cheap Chinese holders like
Phase One brand. They are absolute crap. Invest in a real Aloris brand
and you will not regret it.


Hmm ... I've got a mix of Phase-II and genuine Aloris tool
holders of various styles. You can get more esoteric styles in the
Aloris brand, but for the styles which are in both brands, the Phase-II
work well with one caveat. As soon as you get them, pull the setscrews
which come with the holders and replace them with good USA made
setscrews of the same size. (IIRC, it is 8mm or perhaps 10mm for the
BXA size). The reason for doing this is that the metallurgy of the
screws is probably the worst part (at least of the Phase-II ones which I
have), and you *really* don't want to have the socket split out while it
is clamped onto a tool (and no part of the setscrew is above the
toolholder block, so you are left with drilling it out. :-) Since a box
of 100 of the proper size screws is cheap enough from MSC or one of the
other major vendors, it is cheap insurance.

Also -- I would suggest purchasing a good T-handle Allen key of
the right size for the setscrews so you can put some serious muscle when
you're setting a tool in the holder.

Now -- there are lower-budget versions than the Phase-II, and
these are sometimes sold as Phase-II (at least based on the
advertising), so this may be what you encountered.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
  #10   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:
In article , Steve says...

How is the degree above centerline adjusted on Aloris type quick
change tool holders?


The tool holder has a sort of setscrew stop that gives
nearly micrometer accuracy in setting the height of
the tool above the bed.

The angle of the tool is adjusted by loosening the
hold down bolt and turning by hand.


You're talking about the side-to-side angle. I think that he
was talking about the *top-rake* angle, which with a lantern-style
toolpost is adjustable as he described. And the height and top-rake
interact on the lantern style toolpost -- usually adjusted for a
semi-reasonable compromise by adjusting the stick-out.

Normally, I set the toolpost up to present the tool shanks at a
right (side-to-side) angle to the workpiece, and the other set of
dovetails is then at the right angle for facing or boring instead of
turning.

With insert tooling, the rake angle is part of the machining of
the pocket for the insert (or perhaps, as in the threading inserts,
controlled by a solid carbide anvil which mounts between the insert and
the tool shank.

With HSS -- if you want a rake, you grind it in the tool while
shaping the rest of it.

In either case, with a quick-change toolpost, the bottom of the
tool shank is parallel to the bed and (hopefully) the floor.

They are independently adjustable.


Not the rake angle, but the side-to-side angle certainly is.

Typically the cutting edge is set as nearly on center
as you can. The best way to do this is to face off
a piece of stock - when the tip of the tool does
not leave a tit on the end of the stock (too low)
then it's right.


Indeed so -- and this part of your question has been covered
in greater detail by other responders.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


  #11   Report Post  
\PrecisionMachinisT\
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...


Now -- there are lower-budget versions than the Phase-II, and
these are sometimes sold as Phase-II (at least based on the
advertising), so this may be what you encountered.


I wanted to add that over the years Ive found quality of heat treating to
vary widely on import items...

Sometimes I think they heat em a few at a time and throw them in a bucket of
cold oil....... in the morning......then as the day progresses they might
heat a bunch more till they glow a little then throw em in the bucket of
(now hotter) oil.......

I dunno, import tee nuts, screws washers and such never seem to quite be
what I would expect and are often hardened up the point of extreme
brittleness--

Im kinda curious if anyone has ever had any import aloris style tooling ( or
any other tooling for that matter ) crack and break on them due to this ???

--

SVL





  #12   Report Post  
DeepDiver
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...

As soon as you get them, pull the setscrews which come with
the holders and replace them with good USA made setscrews
of the same size. (IIRC, it is 8mm or perhaps 10mm for the
BXA size).


I'll second that motion! Btw, for a Phase-II BXA, the set screw size is
M10-1.5 x 20mm.


The reason for doing this is that the metallurgy of the screws
is probably the worst part, and you *really* don't want to have
the socket split out while it is clamped onto a tool


It's not just the metallurgy of the screws, but the way they are
manufactured. High-quality fasteners are forged (and have rolled threads);
the hex socket is formed during the forging process and is very strong and
made to close dimensional tolerances. On the other hand, the socket in cheap
socket head set screws are made by broaching a hole (a hex shaped anvil is
pressed into a round hole, cutting out the hex corners and forcing the
displaced metal into the bottom of the socket). This leaves a weak,
poorly-formed, and often sloppy socket. That is why they strip-out so
easily.

I agree with Don regarding the quality of genuine Phase-II tool holders.
They are certainly good enough for a home/small shop. But be sure to get the
wedge style (not the plunger style). There was a thread in this newsgroup
recently about the differences; do a Google groups search. Btw, Enco has the
Phase-II tool holder sets on sale all the time (and they are currently
offering free shipping).


  #13   Report Post  
tomcas
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

Bob Swinney wrote:

Tomcas sez:

"One word of advice- don't buy the cheap Chinese holders like Phase One
brand. They are absolute crap. Invest in a real Aloris brand and you will
not regret it."

Hhmmmnnn, I wonder about that there "Phase One brand". Does that mean that
Phase Two brand is twice as crappy?

Bob Swinney

"tomcas" wrote in message
...

Steve wrote:


How is the degree above centerline adjusted on Aloris type quick
change tool holders? Do you just adjust the toolholder and then the
toolbit is say... 5 degress above centerline but is still
perpendicular to the ways?I am asking because I am getting ready to
buy one after everyones suggestions and on the lantern type you set
the 5 degrees above centerline for mild steel by adjusting the tool
holder in the post with the rocker. This puts the tool at an angle to
the ways. Does it make a difference as long it is the proper amount of
degrees above center line for the material being cut whether it is
perpendicular or at an angle? It seems that perpendicular would be
much more beneficial. Thanks for any help. -Steve


If you are facing to the center of a part and you don't want a
protuberance then set the cutting edge exactly on center by adjusting
the knurled height nut while the wedge is unlocked. If you are not
facing to the center then remember- turn below - bore above. The center
line that is. By about 10 thousandths. This will ensure the cutter
always has ample clearance and cuts instead of rubs. I use a depth part
of a dial caliper to measure this setting off the end face of a known
diameter. --
**remove NospaM from email address to reply**





Oops, I meant Phase 2. I chalk it up to old age or the subconscious
attempt to erase all memory of that brand. Seriously, the difference in
quality is like night and day. Take for instance the combo tool that
hold triangular inserts on each end. When it is used on one side of the
block if faces and when it is installed on the other side of the block
it turns. Unfortunately, the heights of the insert pockets are different
on the Phase 2 you have to re-adjust the tool height (or shim) each
time you change from facing to turning. The Aloris is dead nuts. The
insert clamps on the Phase 2 are cheaply constructed. The Aloris has
insert clamps that are fully adjustable and include integral brazed
carbide chip breakers.
Normally I could understand where a cheaper quality brand would have
it's niche market but in this case the price differential is relatively
low while the quality difference is extremely high.
Just my opinion.
--
**remove NospaM from email address to reply**

  #14   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article , DoN. Nichols says...

You're talking about the side-to-side angle. I think that he
was talking about the *top-rake* angle,


Ah, of course.

With HSS -- if you want a rake, you grind it in the tool while
shaping the rest of it.


This explains my missing the point. I grind my HSS tools
such that there is side rake, but never any back rake,
which is what the tilt of a toolholder (in the rocker
of a lantern toolpost) creates.

I much prefer that the side cutting edge of the tool,
when mounted in an aloris tool holder, be horizontal,
as nearly as possible.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #15   Report Post  
Bob Swinney
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

Jim sez:
" I much prefer that the side cutting edge of the tool, when mounted in an
aloris tool holder, be horizontal, as nearly as possible."

Be careful not to confuse rake with relief.

Bob Swinney


"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , DoN. Nichols says...

You're talking about the side-to-side angle. I think that he
was talking about the *top-rake* angle,


Ah, of course.

With HSS -- if you want a rake, you grind it in the tool while
shaping the rest of it.


This explains my missing the point. I grind my HSS tools
such that there is side rake, but never any back rake,
which is what the tilt of a toolholder (in the rocker
of a lantern toolpost) creates.


Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================





  #16   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article , Bob Swinney
says...

Hhmmmnnn, I wonder about that there "Phase One brand". Does that mean that
Phase Two brand is twice as crappy?


Geeze, I wonder where that leaves me, I'm still using
those old Phase III (.) I IV I V IX brand tool
holders!

Jim (no wonder the romans declined)

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #17   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article Eddkb.586100$cF.255267@rwcrnsc53, Bob Swinney says...

Be careful not to confuse rake with relief.


Indeed. I like to form turning tools from HSS
blanks using three grinds only:

First grind forms front relief and front
cutting angle, and is done on the front of the
blank.

The second grind is done on the side of the
tool, and forms only side relief. This grind
has its axis exactly parallel to the tool
blank's axis, and is done so that the edge of
the grind exactly intersects the side corner
of the tool blank, as nearly as possible.

Stopping at this point turns the tool into
a brass-turning tool: No side rake at all,
it has a flat top, formed by the factory
top surface.

But for turning steel, there's a third grind:
the one that forms the side rake. That grind
is likewise done parallel to the tool's long
axis, and likewise is done so that it terminates
at the very corner of the factory square shape.
(once again, this edge is the corner between
the top surface, and the left surface of the
tool, for a tool that cuts towards the headstock)

If this grind is done with back angle, then the
cutting tool has both side, and back rake as
well. Many folks feel that back rake is essential
to good cutting, I've never found that to be true.

The advantage to grinding lathe tools this way
is easy to understand - the cross section of the
cutting tool does not vary as one moves back from
the working edge. The tool can be sharpened by
simply doing a new front grind, and the geometry
and more importantly, the *height* of the cutting
edge is nearly unchanged. [1]

Honestly this is not as good as using insert cutting
tools, but for the home shop type, it's nice to be
able to do a quick touchup on the tool in the middle
of the project, and have the height and geometery
stay almost exactly the same.

Jim

[1] getting the formed cutting edge to be exactly
coincident with the factory corner of the tool requires
two things: a grinding wheel that is dressed quite
flat, and a steady hand to sneak up on the corner.

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #19   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:01:15 GMT, tomcas wrote:
One word of advice- don't buy the cheap Chinese holders like
Phase One brand. They are absolute crap. Invest in a real Aloris brand
and you will not regret it.


I don't know anything about "Phase One" brand, but I do know about
Phase II brand quickchange toolposts. They're fine. One machine
I own had an Aloris toolpost when I bought it, the other two have
Phase II toolposts. The holders are interchangeable, and I can't
find any operational differences between them. But there certainly
is a *price* difference, with the Aloris stuff selling for about 6 times
as much as the Phase II.

Gary
  #20   Report Post  
Bob Swinney
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

Rozen-guy, you are a man after my own heart! Show me someone who grinds his
own HSS tools and I'll show you a craftsman.

Bob Swinney
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article Eddkb.586100$cF.255267@rwcrnsc53, Bob Swinney says...

Be careful not to confuse rake with relief.


Indeed. I like to form turning tools from HSS
blanks using three grinds only:

First grind forms front relief and front
cutting angle, and is done on the front of the
blank.

The second grind is done on the side of the
tool, and forms only side relief. This grind
has its axis exactly parallel to the tool
blank's axis, and is done so that the edge of
the grind exactly intersects the side corner
of the tool blank, as nearly as possible.

Stopping at this point turns the tool into
a brass-turning tool: No side rake at all,
it has a flat top, formed by the factory
top surface.

But for turning steel, there's a third grind:
the one that forms the side rake. That grind
is likewise done parallel to the tool's long
axis, and likewise is done so that it terminates
at the very corner of the factory square shape.
(once again, this edge is the corner between
the top surface, and the left surface of the
tool, for a tool that cuts towards the headstock)

If this grind is done with back angle, then the
cutting tool has both side, and back rake as
well. Many folks feel that back rake is essential
to good cutting, I've never found that to be true.

The advantage to grinding lathe tools this way
is easy to understand - the cross section of the
cutting tool does not vary as one moves back from
the working edge. The tool can be sharpened by
simply doing a new front grind, and the geometry
and more importantly, the *height* of the cutting
edge is nearly unchanged. [1]

Honestly this is not as good as using insert cutting
tools, but for the home shop type, it's nice to be
able to do a quick touchup on the tool in the middle
of the project, and have the height and geometery
stay almost exactly the same.

Jim

[1] getting the formed cutting edge to be exactly
coincident with the factory corner of the tool requires
two things: a grinding wheel that is dressed quite
flat, and a steady hand to sneak up on the corner.

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  #22   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

On 18 Oct 2003 09:58:03 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:


If this grind is done with back angle, then the
cutting tool has both side, and back rake as
well. Many folks feel that back rake is essential
to good cutting, I've never found that to be true.


If you make a sharp rake angle and keep it very short, it works as a
modereatly decent chip breaker. I often do this and make it deep and
keep the rake area only about 3/16" long at most.

Gunner

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle
behind each blade of grass." --Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
  #23   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article , Gunner says...

On 18 Oct 2003 09:58:03 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:


If this grind is done with back angle, then the
cutting tool has both side, and back rake as
well. Many folks feel that back rake is essential
to good cutting, I've never found that to be true.


If you make a sharp rake angle and keep it very short, it works as a
modereatly decent chip breaker. I often do this and make it deep and
keep the rake area only about 3/16" long at most.


If I want a chip breaker, I take the geometry I mentioned,
and put a narrow groove across the tool, a tiny bit in back
of the edge. No longer easily sharpenable, though.

Jim

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  #24   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:

[ ... ]

If this grind is done with back angle, then the
cutting tool has both side, and back rake as
well. Many folks feel that back rake is essential
to good cutting, I've never found that to be true.


There is one exception -- which is already taken care of in the
quick-change tool holders for Aloris style toolposts. That is the
parting tool, which is mounted in its holder with a built-in rake angle.
Since the parting tool cuts purely on its tip, this makes sense. (And
you can grind a chipbreaker notch just behind the front edge on top, if
you so desire. (And for deep parting cuts, it is a good thing to have,
depending on the workpiece material.)

This is the only Aloris style tool holder that I have used which
introduces rake angles, other than the Aloris 16N, which holds
triangular inserts directly, and introduces a *negative* rake for those
inserts designed to use that rake. The 16P (I believe) introduces *no*
rake, depending on the design of the proper insert to provide the
clearance and rake.

Enjoy,
DoN.
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  #25   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article ,
\"PrecisionMachinisT\" wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...


Now -- there are lower-budget versions than the Phase-II, and
these are sometimes sold as Phase-II (at least based on the
advertising), so this may be what you encountered.


[ ... ]

I dunno, import tee nuts, screws washers and such never seem to quite be
what I would expect and are often hardened up the point of extreme
brittleness--


The screws are particularly bad.

Im kinda curious if anyone has ever had any import aloris style tooling ( or
any other tooling for that matter ) crack and break on them due to this ???


I've never had such a problem with the tool holders (or the
toolpost), but I replaced the setscrews *before* putting the holders
into service, since I had already been warned about them. I actually
replaced them with the imperial screws of very similar size, and had to
use a good HSS tap to clean up the threads to make up for the slight
difference between the metric and imperial ones. One benefit of this is
that the same T-handled Allen hex key works on both the Phase-II and the
genuine Aloris tool holders.

I really crank down on those setscrews, so if the holders were
likely to break, they probably would have by now. And I sometimes put a
significant cutting load on the machine (a Clausing 12x24" machine.)

Enjoy,
DoN.
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  #26   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article ,
tomcas wrote:

[ ... ]

Oops, I meant Phase 2. I chalk it up to old age or the subconscious
attempt to erase all memory of that brand. Seriously, the difference in
quality is like night and day. Take for instance the combo tool that
hold triangular inserts on each end. When it is used on one side of the
block if faces and when it is installed on the other side of the block
it turns. Unfortunately, the heights of the insert pockets are different
on the Phase 2 you have to re-adjust the tool height (or shim) each
time you change from facing to turning. The Aloris is dead nuts. The
insert clamps on the Phase 2 are cheaply constructed. The Aloris has
insert clamps that are fully adjustable and include integral brazed
carbide chip breakers.


O.K. I've never seen the Phase-II version of this, and did not
know that they made that style at all. I have a genuine Aloris for that
style, and a few other special styles as well. I'll agree that a
discrepancy in heights of the pockets on either end is a "show-stopper".

But, for the normal turning and boring style tool holders, I'm
still using the ones which came with my Phase-II (wedge style) toolpost.
The one which I am *not* using from that set (at least, not for its
intended purpose) is the knurling tool, which I consider to be close to
useless. I do use the other end of it from time to time to hold a
facing tool.

I have used a scissors style knurling tool quite a bit in a
standard Aloris tool holder, and later got an Aloris one which has the
two knurling rolls held in two arms on dovetails on a BXA style base.
This works quite well for my needs.

But for most of my knurling, I use a T-headed one designed for
turret use -- as long as I don't need to knurl too far onto the
workpiece.

Enjoy,
DoN.
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jim rozen
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article , DoN. Nichols says...

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:

[ ... ]

If this grind is done with back angle, then the
cutting tool has both side, and back rake as
well. Many folks feel that back rake is essential
to good cutting, I've never found that to be true.


There is one exception -- which is already taken care of in the
quick-change tool holders for Aloris style toolposts. That is the
parting tool, which is mounted in its holder with a built-in rake angle.

....

And yet, even there it's hardly essential.

I have one of those Enco toolposts with a quick change
position. I think somebody even sent me one of the
holders at one time.... but no matter. Anyway,
I wanted to put a cutoff tool into play one day, and
did not have the proper QC holder for it. So I did
a horrible cheat, I put the cutoff blade into a
turning boring holder, the one with the V-notch at the
bottom - the notch typically used to accept a round
shank boring bar.

The square bottom of the cutoff tool lined up with
the notch, but the top - what to do about the top?
One could imagine a small piece to adapt the setcrews
to the top of the blade, a narrow strip with a slot
on its underside.

But I was in a hurry, and I knew that the cutoff blade
is a bit wider on top than on the bottom. So I just
brought each of the four setscrews to bear on the
top of the blade, and carefully tightened them
in turn to keep the blade vertical.

Consider - there's hardly and side force on a cutoff
blade. And it worked so well, I did my other one that
same way. I like to have a square-tip cutoff, and also
and angle-tipped one. Never hand one pop out under cut,
never had any trouble with the crazy setup. So I
keep using it.

And, because the tool holder has a flat bottom, the
blade has exactly zero rake. And they seem to work as
well as the genuine aloris cutoffs I have here at work.

Jim

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DoN. Nichols
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:
In article , DoN. Nichols says...

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:

[ ... ]

If this grind is done with back angle, then the
cutting tool has both side, and back rake as
well. Many folks feel that back rake is essential
to good cutting, I've never found that to be true.


There is one exception -- which is already taken care of in the
quick-change tool holders for Aloris style toolposts. That is the
parting tool, which is mounted in its holder with a built-in rake angle.

...

And yet, even there it's hardly essential.

I have one of those Enco toolposts with a quick change
position. I think somebody even sent me one of the
holders at one time....


That sounds familiar. The Enco toolholders do not fit the Emco
toolpost on my Compact-5/CNC. :-)

but no matter. Anyway,
I wanted to put a cutoff tool into play one day, and
did not have the proper QC holder for it. So I did
a horrible cheat, I put the cutoff blade into a
turning boring holder, the one with the V-notch at the
bottom - the notch typically used to accept a round
shank boring bar.


How tall was the cutoff blade? Mine are too tall to fit in the
1/2" slot for the Emco toolholders, and I don't remember the Enco being
that much taller.

[ ... ]

And, because the tool holder has a flat bottom, the
blade has exactly zero rake. And they seem to work as
well as the genuine aloris cutoffs I have here at work.


IIRC -- the holder for the Emco designed for parting tools has
no rake, either.

One of the disadvantages of the rake on the Aloris style holders
is that if you loosen the blade to extend it for deeper parting cuts,
or pull it in for more rigidity for harder materials (or even just
sharpen it by re-grinding the tip), you have to re-adjust the
height-setting nut.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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jim rozen
 
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Default How do you adjust the cutter bit on Aloris Tool Holders

In article , DoN. Nichols says...

How tall was the cutoff blade? Mine are too tall to fit in the
1/2" slot for the Emco toolholders, and I don't remember the Enco being
that much taller.


Just a half inch tall. But because I used one of my home-made
boring/turning holders, the V-grove in the bottom allows
the blade to drop enough so that the setscrews are dropped
below the top of the 1/2 inch slot before they touch down
on the blade top. I always use the (soft) home made
tool holder blocks because I don't think the factory
made ones, which are hard, would be compliant enough
when the bottom of the HSS blad is forced into the slot.
I'd be worried about cracking the bottom of the blade
in that case.

One of the disadvantages of the rake on the Aloris style holders
is that if you loosen the blade to extend it for deeper parting cuts,
or pull it in for more rigidity for harder materials (or even just
sharpen it by re-grinding the tip), you have to re-adjust the
height-setting nut.


That is a real annoyance, I agree. And my zero rake holders
seem to do every bit as good a job as the aloris ones.
Go figure.

Jim

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