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Dan October 11th 03 07:45 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
Very modern, very well equipped. Very little "real" detail, but an
interesting read nonetheless.

One of the computer geek pages went to China to tour a case manufacturer:
http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20031006/index.html

Of note: the lack of any safety equipment... OSHA would have an heart
attack!
(Slashdot readers have posted many comments here as well:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=0...d&tid=126&tid=
137 )

-D



DeepDiver October 11th 03 10:13 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"Dan" wrote:
Of note: the lack of any safety equipment... OSHA would have
an heart attack!



OSHA is one of the reasons why that factory is in China and not in America.

I'm not suggesting that worker safety should be ignored, but OSHA has become
one of the many bloated self-serving government bureaucracies that has
contributed to forcing manufacturing overseas. I'm sure many of you are
familiar with the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Did you know that OSHA
even has an MSDS for saline eye wash solution (pure water with a little bit
of salt added)? I came across that little gem when working in the Navy: I
couldn't believe it when I saw it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an
MSDS for distilled water.

Lawyers, bureaucrats, and socialists will be the death of this nation.



Gary Coffman October 11th 03 11:42 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:45:54 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

Very modern, very well equipped. Very little "real" detail, but an
interesting read nonetheless.

One of the computer geek pages went to China to tour a case manufacturer:
http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20031006/index.html

Of note: the lack of any safety equipment... OSHA would have an heart
attack!
(Slashdot readers have posted many comments here as well:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=0...id=126&tid=137 )

-D



Ed Huntress October 12th 03 02:26 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dan" wrote:
Of note: the lack of any safety equipment... OSHA would have
an heart attack!



OSHA is one of the reasons why that factory is in China and not in

America.

I'm not suggesting that worker safety should be ignored, but OSHA has

become
one of the many bloated self-serving government bureaucracies that has
contributed to forcing manufacturing overseas. I'm sure many of you are
familiar with the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Did you know that

OSHA
even has an MSDS for saline eye wash solution (pure water with a little

bit
of salt added)? I came across that little gem when working in the Navy: I
couldn't believe it when I saw it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an
MSDS for distilled water.


OSHA and EPA regulations combined amount to around 8% of manufacturing cost
in the US. The wage differential between high-quality workers in China and
high-quality workers in the US runs around 96%.

So you have an 8% solution here to a 96% problem.



Lawyers, bureaucrats, and socialists will be the death of this nation.


If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be doctrinaire,
conservative free-trade economics.

Ed Huntress



Glenn Ashmore October 12th 03 02:33 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 


Ed Huntress wrote:

If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be doctrinaire,
conservative free-trade economics.


Fair trade and free trade seem to be completely different things.

Strangely those same people who promote "free trade" are deathly afraid
of China.

If we ever do have to fight China we will have to do it with what ever
is on hand because all our production facilities will have moved over
there. That war will not be about oil so much as about computer chips
and machine tools.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com


Mike Henry October 12th 03 02:58 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
Not to defend all of the OSHA idiocy, but I'd rather be able to read an MSDS
and determine that there is nothing hazardous in it than have to guess.

"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dan" wrote:
Of note: the lack of any safety equipment... OSHA would have
an heart attack!



OSHA is one of the reasons why that factory is in China and not in

America.

I'm not suggesting that worker safety should be ignored, but OSHA has

become
one of the many bloated self-serving government bureaucracies that has
contributed to forcing manufacturing overseas. I'm sure many of you are
familiar with the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Did you know that

OSHA
even has an MSDS for saline eye wash solution (pure water with a little

bit
of salt added)? I came across that little gem when working in the Navy: I
couldn't believe it when I saw it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an
MSDS for distilled water.

Lawyers, bureaucrats, and socialists will be the death of this nation.





Ed Huntress October 12th 03 03:10 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:Wo1ib.74196$sp2.43574@lakeread04...


Ed Huntress wrote:

If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be doctrinaire,
conservative free-trade economics.


Fair trade and free trade seem to be completely different things.


Yeah, for starters, free trade is a myth. Fair trade is in the eye of the
beholder. Making trade with France and Germany "fairer" would be good for
everyone. Making trade with China "fairer" would do absolutely nothing at
all.


Strangely those same people who promote "free trade" are deathly afraid
of China.


They know their policies are a crock of baloney; they just haven't faced up
to the implications of it yet. This is not speculation on my part. This is
the result of the research I did for my two articles on China trade earlier
this year.


If we ever do have to fight China we will have to do it with what ever
is on hand because all our production facilities will have moved over
there. That war will not be about oil so much as about computer chips
and machine tools.


You may want to see an article I just wrote about that. It's 5500 words --
make sure you have some spare time. g

It's in the September issue of Machining. I suspect it will be up on the
website within a couple of weeks, if not already.

Ed Huntress




Lennie the Lurker October 12th 03 03:16 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
To reply to Deep Diver who has munged things so badly that google
posting can't find his posting, Bull**** in large quantities with a
conservative syrup on it. The reason those factories are there is
that the people that use them, importers and other middlemen, have
only greed on their minds. Profits are good, unemployment is good, or
that's what the GWeeB and his pack of morons are trying to tell us.

As far as OSHA, I suppose you'd rather see working people torn apart
by open belts, machines without guards on moving parts, or fork trucks
with bad brakes, it goes right along with your small mental ability.
Doesn't interfere with someone's right to kill for profit. (May you
be the next victim)

BTW, Hows come when business asswipes join together, you're all for
it, but when working stiffs do the same thing, you call us socialist?
Permanent malfunction of the brain? Or permanent lack of one?

Glenn Ashmore October 12th 03 04:03 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 


Ed Huntress wrote:



You may want to see an article I just wrote about that. It's 5500
words -- make sure you have some spare time. g

It's in the September issue of Machining. I suspect it will be up on
the website within a couple of weeks, if not already.

Ed Huntress


I saw the April article. Was the June one yours too? I didn't see any
atribution so I thought it was a staff editorial.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com


Glenn Ashmore October 12th 03 04:07 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 


Mike Henry wrote:

Not to defend all of the OSHA idiocy, but I'd rather be able to read an MSDS
and determine that there is nothing hazardous in it than have to guess.


I don't know about that. I got an MSDS with a box of carbide inserts
the other day. It didn't say anything about mangling your fingers or
putting your eyes out. ;-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com


jim rozen October 12th 03 04:29 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
In article eN2ib.74217$sp2.50198@lakeread04, Glenn Ashmore says...

I don't know about that. I got an MSDS with a box of carbide inserts
the other day. It didn't say anything about mangling your fingers or
putting your eyes out. ;-)


Hmm. Last week I had to look up tri-methyl silane.

It was kind of nice to know that OSHA required my
employer to keep all the MSDS sheets on site so
I can find out what the researchers are using.

All the complaints about OSHA are getting a bit
silly. Pretty soon they're gonna be down to
a broom closet for a headquarters, and two
guys working there.

Basically you have to machine-gun your workers
before OSHA shows up to investigate.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================


Ed Huntress October 12th 03 05:34 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:JJ2ib.74215$sp2.38359@lakeread04...


Ed Huntress wrote:



You may want to see an article I just wrote about that. It's 5500
words -- make sure you have some spare time. g

It's in the September issue of Machining. I suspect it will be up on
the website within a couple of weeks, if not already.

Ed Huntress


I saw the April article. Was the June one yours too? I didn't see any
atribution so I thought it was a staff editorial.


Yes, I wrote that one too, but it was signed by "the editors" so we decided
not to run it with a byline.

Ed Huntress



DoN. Nichols October 12th 03 06:16 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
In article ,
DeepDiver wrote:

[ ... ]

familiar with the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Did you know that OSHA
even has an MSDS for saline eye wash solution (pure water with a little bit
of salt added)? I came across that little gem when working in the Navy: I
couldn't believe it when I saw it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an
MSDS for distilled water.


FWIW -- in a hospital emergency room (when my wife had a
gallstone), I saw several sealed bottles labeled:

"Distilled Water"
"Federal Law prohibits dispensing with a prescription"

And I believe that there *are* MSDS sheets for distilled water --
simply to comply with the requirements that every chemical used have one
on file.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

AL October 12th 03 07:51 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
No one is wearing safety glasses.

"Dan" wrote in message
...
Very modern, very well equipped. Very little "real" detail, but an
interesting read nonetheless.

One of the computer geek pages went to China to tour a case manufacturer:
http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20031006/index.html

Of note: the lack of any safety equipment... OSHA would have an heart
attack!
(Slashdot readers have posted many comments here as well:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=0...d&tid=126&tid=
137 )

-D





jim rozen October 12th 03 08:05 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
In article , DoN. Nichols says...

And I believe that there *are* MSDS sheets for distilled water --
simply to comply with the requirements that every chemical used have one
on file.


Well, yeah.

Rumor has it those have the funny bits in them, like
"in case of accidental injestion, dilute with.... water."
"in case of fire, put out fire with... water."
"in case of accidental spill, dilute with... water."

The MSDS for chemi-sorb say that in case of accidental
spill, sprinkle chemi-sorb on the spill.

That sort of thing.

I have the shipping hazard lable for water on my door
at work. You know, the one with the three catagories,
flammability, reactivity, toxicitiy.

zero, zero, zero....

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================


Old Nick October 12th 03 09:21 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:13:26 GMT, "DeepDiver"
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

"Dan" wrote:
Of note: the lack of any safety equipment... OSHA would have
an heart attack!



OSHA is one of the reasons why that factory is in China and not in America.

I'm not suggesting that worker safety should be ignored, but OSHA has become
one of the many bloated self-serving government bureaucracies that has
contributed to forcing manufacturing overseas.


OSHA is probably bloated and self-serving, and filled with many
get-a-life bureaucrats, whose only purpose is to make themselves feel
tough. But it would not be necessary to have such entities as OSHA if
most employers were not greedy users and abusers of fellow humans in
order to maximise profits.

I'm sure many of you are
familiar with the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Did you know that OSHA
even has an MSDS for saline eye wash solution (pure water with a little bit
of salt added)? I came across that little gem when working in the Navy: I
couldn't believe it when I saw it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an
MSDS for distilled water.


And nobody would jump up and down if OSHA did _not_ have that stupid
MSDS, and something went wrong?

\


Lawyers, bureaucrats, and socialists will be the death of this nation.


************************************************** ****************************************
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
The rest sit around and make snide comments.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email
!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

Gunner October 12th 03 11:11 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:21:30 +0800, Old Nick
wrote:


OSHA is one of the reasons why that factory is in China and not in America.

I'm not suggesting that worker safety should be ignored, but OSHA has become
one of the many bloated self-serving government bureaucracies that has
contributed to forcing manufacturing overseas.


OSHA is probably bloated and self-serving, and filled with many
get-a-life bureaucrats, whose only purpose is to make themselves feel
tough. But it would not be necessary to have such entities as OSHA if
most employers were not greedy users and abusers of fellow humans in
order to maximise profits.

I'm sure many of you are
familiar with the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Did you know that OSHA
even has an MSDS for saline eye wash solution (pure water with a little bit
of salt added)? I came across that little gem when working in the Navy: I
couldn't believe it when I saw it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an
MSDS for distilled water.


And nobody would jump up and down if OSHA did _not_ have that stupid
MSDS, and something went wrong?

\


Like an engine or heavy machine..there is generally lots of room for
improvement or tuning it up for better and more efficient performance.

Most governmental organizations are like a clunky overweight 13
cylinder engine, with **** poor fuel consumption and greatly
overweight for the task at hand.

Gunner

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle
behind each blade of grass." --Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

Tom Quackenbush October 12th 03 01:30 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:13:26 GMT, "DeepDiver"
wrote:


I'm not suggesting that worker safety should be ignored, but OSHA has become
one of the many bloated self-serving government bureaucracies that has
contributed to forcing manufacturing overseas. I'm sure many of you are
familiar with the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Did you know that OSHA
even has an MSDS for saline eye wash solution (pure water with a little bit
of salt added)? I came across that little gem when working in the Navy: I
couldn't believe it when I saw it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an
MSDS for distilled water.

SNIP

Here's some:
http://hazard.com/msds2/f/bmz/bmzdd.html
http://msds.ogden.disa.mil/msds/owa/..._list?istart=W
(scroll down to "Water")

I always got a kick out of the MSDS for talcum powder. Our planned
maintenance procedures required us to dust the inside of our rubber
gloves (the big, black, electrical safety type) after each use and
also at some fixed periodicity. They PM also required us to review all
pertinent MSDS. The MSDS first aid procedures for skin contact were
to wash with soap and water.

Every time I performed that particular PM I'd get a mental picture
of some poor (literal-minded) slob entering into an infinite loop -
putting the gloves on, yanking them off to wash his hands, putting the
gloves on, . . ..

Note - talc _can_ be hazardous, particularly when inhaled (talcosis)
or ingested.

R,
Tom Q



Glenn Ashmore October 12th 03 01:46 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 


Tom Quackenbush wrote:


I always got a kick out of the MSDS for talcum powder. Our planned
maintenance procedures required us to dust the inside of our rubber
gloves (the big, black, electrical safety type) after each use and
also at some fixed periodicity. They PM also required us to review all
pertinent MSDS. The MSDS first aid procedures for skin contact were
to wash with soap and water.


But what does the MSDS for the soap say?

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com


dann mann October 12th 03 02:22 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
I work with this hypochondriac guy who wears a respirator most of the
time. We are a trophy shop and use very small amounts of some oxidizing
chemicals. Maybe about 4 ounces lasts 3 months.
He will not use this product because he says he can feel it in his
bloodstream.
I asked him how it was possible for him to put gas in his car, drive to
work on the freeway, and still be worried about a chemical with the
toxicity of vinegar.
The guy is clearly crazy with fear of everything and will only eat
mostly rotten fruit and drinks distilled water and hydrogen peroxide. Oh
yeah, he draws his blood everynite and looks at it under a microscope.
He also installed tachyon particle focusing discs on the ceiling of his
work area.
I need an MSDS just to be around this guy.





Mike H October 12th 03 02:28 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 

"AL" wrote in message
. net...
No one is wearing safety glasses.

"Dan" wrote in message
...
Very modern, very well equipped. Very little "real" detail, but an
interesting read nonetheless.

One of the computer geek pages went to China to tour a case

manufacturer:


If you read into the article a little deeper the writer points out that
safety equipment is made available and is mandatory for the workers,
however, they were allowed to remove them while he was taking pictures.

Mike H.



Carl Byrns October 12th 03 03:25 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 


OSHA and EPA regulations combined amount to around 8% of manufacturing cost
in the US. The wage differential between high-quality workers in China and
high-quality workers in the US runs around 96%.

So you have an 8% solution here to a 96% problem.



Lawyers, bureaucrats, and socialists will be the death of this nation.


If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be doctrinaire,
conservative free-trade economics.


I disagree. If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be
union workers pricing themselves out of the market. Locally, we had a
very established business where the rank and file struck for higher
wages, despite knowing the employer was already fighting off a
diminshing market and offshore competition. You already know the
results- the business folded and the tooling went to- China.

Just last week, a large factory announced that it was closing- idling
1200 workers. The jobs are going not to China, but to Singapore.
It's hard to feel sorry for these workers- they were getting big bucks
and bennies for assembly line work and they wouldn't consider even a
small pay cut to stay employed.

GM is setting up car factories in China. GM says they are building for
the Chinese market only, but I wonder...

-Carl

Robin S. October 12th 03 03:28 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...

As far as OSHA, I suppose you'd rather see working people torn apart
by open belts, machines without guards on moving parts, or fork trucks
with bad brakes, it goes right along with your small mental ability.
Doesn't interfere with someone's right to kill for profit. (May you
be the next victim)


Excellent post. I work for a company that produces heavy stamping dies (60
ton max, roughly). You should hear the stories...

"His wife and children were brought in to say goodbye. Then they opened the
die."

Regards,

Robin



Ed Huntress October 12th 03 04:08 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
...


OSHA and EPA regulations combined amount to around 8% of manufacturing

cost
in the US. The wage differential between high-quality workers in China

and
high-quality workers in the US runs around 96%.

So you have an 8% solution here to a 96% problem.



Lawyers, bureaucrats, and socialists will be the death of this nation.


If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be doctrinaire,
conservative free-trade economics.


I disagree. If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be
union workers pricing themselves out of the market. Locally, we had a
very established business where the rank and file struck for higher
wages, despite knowing the employer was already fighting off a
diminshing market and offshore competition. You already know the
results- the business folded and the tooling went to- China.


With a good Chinese worker making $0.80/hr., and with productivity in their
better export-oriented plants and shops running perhaps 2/3 of ours, there
was no other possible outcome, Carl. The business would have chiseled them
down as far as they could, pocketed whatever they could, and then gone to
China anyway in a few years. That's happened in several industries over the
last 5-10 years. The forces that would make it necessary to go to China
because you're paying $20/hr. wages are the same forces that would make it
necessary if you were paying $10/hr. wages.

You have to ask yourself why this is happening. If NAFTA and China trade are
supposed to leave the high-end jobs in the US (they're even supposed to
*increase* the number of high-end manufacturing jobs in the US, according to
their supporters), why have average manufacturing wages, adjusted for
inflation, declined by 7.6% in the US over the last 25 years or so? There's
a pattern, and there are numbers, and they fly right in the face of the
free-trade doctrine.


Just last week, a large factory announced that it was closing- idling
1200 workers. The jobs are going not to China, but to Singapore.
It's hard to feel sorry for these workers- they were getting big bucks
and bennies for assembly line work and they wouldn't consider even a
small pay cut to stay employed.


How much would the next "small pay cut" be? Where is this headed? China and
Singapore are improving their productivity at a scorching rate. We ship
entire factories over there now, along with managers and trainers, and they
often wind up duplicating the productivity of the former US operations, or
nearly so, in less than a year. So, how far down are you willing to let
wages go to compete with them? Maybe $2.50/hr?


GM is setting up car factories in China. GM says they are building for
the Chinese market only, but I wonder...


There's no need to wonder. Shanghai-GM's CEO said explicitly a few months
ago that they plan to be competing on the world market (read, "exporting
cars to the US") within five years. Right now it costs more to build a
complete car in China than in the US or even in Japan. But not for much
longer.

Go down to your Chevy dealer in a couple of months and take a look at the
engine in the new Equinox SUV. It's made in China, complete. They're
starting to ship them to Canada this month, to be installed in the SUV's and
shipped to the US.

Are you ready for that? Do you have any experience as a hospital orderly? It
looks like a good job for the coming years. g

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)



jim rozen October 12th 03 05:31 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
In article , Ed Huntress
says...

You have to ask yourself why this is happening. If NAFTA and China trade are
supposed to leave the high-end jobs in the US (they're even supposed to
*increase* the number of high-end manufacturing jobs in the US, according to
their supporters), why have average manufacturing wages, adjusted for
inflation, declined by 7.6% in the US over the last 25 years or so? There's
a pattern, and there are numbers, and they fly right in the face of the
free-trade doctrine.


Ah, but it's more than the 'low end' jobs that are begin outsourced.

Great article in the NY Times last week that says there's a bunch
of investment houses that are beginning to open branches in India
and hiring analysts from those counties. Of course right now
they say 'we're only sending the scut work overseas' but I think
this is the same thing that GM was doing when they said 'we're
opening that engine factory so we can sell the cars in, um,
China.'

If I were running a software company or an investment house,
and I could hire software engineers or MBAs and PhDs at
half the cost to run my operations, I'd be stupid not to
take advantage of that.

It's interesting to hear all the handwaving and backpedaling
when the company speakers explain why they're not just moving
most of their operations overseas.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================


SMuel10363 October 12th 03 07:57 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
I don't know about that. I got an MSDS with a box of carbide inserts
the other day. It didn't say anything about mangling your fingers or
putting your eyes out. ;-)


Yea-but Ibet you it told you don"t eat em Ray Mueller

Spehro Pefhany October 12th 03 08:41 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"Robin S." wrote in message news:4Gcib.221

Excellent post. I work for a company that produces heavy stamping dies (60
ton max, roughly). You should hear the stories...

"His wife and children were brought in to say goodbye. Then they opened the
die."


Mm.. same thing happens with people that get trapped and twisted
between
a subway train and the platform. Their mangled and twisted body stays
alive until it's time to get the trains running again and they have to
jack the train back...

Yes, some Chinese production facilities are very well equipped- with
huge volumes they can afford to use imported machinery from Japan,
Taiwan, Europe and the US, both for productivity and to meet quality
standards. A cash-starved Western enterprise making a fraction of the
number of units might be forced into using worse (maybe imported HF)
machinery. I visited a Chinese factory not long ago with a captive
mold shop and asked them why they used Hitachi EDMs rather than the
domestic product that was half the price. Quality and productivity-
buying the best in the world made sense to them, despite what seems
like rock-bottom pricing to their customers. Compared to a similar
US enterprise, they have very cheap wages, more flexible if not less
regulation, higher taxes, similar energy costs, possibly higher land
costs. Raising capital is probably much easier in the US.

It's interesting that "free(er) trade" seems to directly benefit none
of
the workers in the developed countries (when two developed countries
such
as Canada and the US do it, workers (but not companies and investors)
both lose), when one country is developed and the other isn't the
undeveloped country gains low wage jobs.. and pollution and energy
consumption and requirements for infrastructure). And the developed
country gains profits for corporations.

Current projections for 2040 are that China will have the world's
largest
economy (it's only recently surpassed that of Canada, one of the
smallest
G7 members, but still the US largest trading partner). Followed by the
US economy and (closely) by India. Of course projecting
that far out in advance is sure to be way off, but it indicates the
trends.
Americans will still be richer than Chinese, but by maybe 2:1 rather
than 30:1 or more. Obviously, if that more economically egalitarian
world,
if it comes to pass, will be quite different from today's. The same
projections showed Russia to be relatively insignificant economically.

And, for the paranoid, militarily, an ascendant China will not
acquiesce
to having another nation able to rain death down upon them from space
without possibility of retribution. They are definitely looking 50
years+
into the future. As the march towards a US missile shield and the
militarization of space seem inevitable, we can expect that they will
do at least the minimum required to maintain a credible deterrent.
For the moment, not much is required of them, some modifications to
the reentry vehicles of ICBMs, but longer term, denial of the use of
space for potential foes, and space-based weapons are probably a
necessary security issue for them. Of course the current lurch
towards unilateralism, PNAC and the rest serves to crystalize
the matter.

Which (along with national pride) is probably part of the reason
behind
their ambitious space program, probably resulting in them being only
the
third nation to launch a human being into space, by the end of next
week.
They have announced plans to send a man to the moon, and eventually to
Mars. Although the technology they are using now is old-ish (Apollo
era/
Soyuz for the spacecraft), this is non-trivial. I wonder what the
effect
would be on the West of seeing a Chinese astronaut plant that red flag
with yellow stars on the surface of our one moon, let alone Mars. If
the
initial flight is successful I do plan to toast their accomplishment,
but
we have to think about this tit-for-tat stuff in the military area.
Eventually it will all come home to roost, and announcing plans for
absolute military dominance over a potential foe as a long-
term objective shows some real lack of understanding of human nature.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Spehro Pefhany October 12th 03 08:48 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"Robin S." wrote in message news:4Gcib.221

Excellent post. I work for a company that produces heavy stamping dies (60
ton max, roughly). You should hear the stories...

"His wife and children were brought in to say goodbye. Then they opened the
die."


Mm.. same thing happens with people that get trapped and twisted
between
a subway train and the platform. Their mangled and twisted body stays
alive until it's time to get the trains running again and they have to
jack the train back...

Yes, some Chinese production facilities are very well equipped- with
huge volumes they can afford to use imported machinery from Japan,
Taiwan, Europe and the US, both for productivity and to meet quality
standards. A cash-starved Western enterprise making a fraction of the
number of units might be forced into using worse (maybe imported HF)
machinery. I visited a Chinese factory not long ago with a captive
mold shop and asked them why they used Hitachi EDMs rather than the
domestic product that was half the price. Quality and productivity-
buying the best in the world made sense to them, despite what seems
like rock-bottom pricing to their customers. Compared to a similar
US enterprise, they have very cheap wages, more flexible if not less
regulation, higher taxes, similar energy costs, possibly higher land
costs. Raising capital is probably much easier in the US.

It's interesting that "free(er) trade" seems to directly benefit none
of
the workers in the developed countries (when two developed countries
such
as Canada and the US do it, workers (but not companies and investors)
both lose), when one country is developed and the other isn't the
undeveloped country gains low wage jobs.. and pollution and energy
consumption and requirements for infrastructure). And the developed
country gains profits for corporations.

Current projections for 2040 are that China will have the world's
largest
economy (it's only recently surpassed that of Canada, one of the
smallest
G7 members, but still the US largest trading partner). Followed by the
US economy and (closely) by India. Of course projecting
that far out in advance is sure to be way off, but it indicates the
trends.
Americans will still be richer than Chinese, but by maybe 2:1 rather
than 30:1 or more. Obviously, if that more economically egalitarian
world,
if it comes to pass, will be quite different from today's. The same
projections showed Russia to be relatively insignificant economically.

And, for the paranoid, militarily, an ascendant China will not
acquiesce
to having another nation able to rain death down upon them from space
without possibility of retribution. They are definitely looking 50
years+
into the future. As the march towards a US missile shield and the
militarization of space seem inevitable, we can expect that they will
do at least the minimum required to maintain a credible deterrent.
For the moment, not much is required of them, some modifications to
the reentry vehicles of ICBMs, but longer term, denial of the use of
space for potential foes, and space-based weapons are probably a
necessary security issue for them. Of course the current lurch
towards unilateralism, PNAC and the rest serves to crystalize
the matter.

Which (along with national pride) is probably part of the reason
behind
their ambitious space program, probably resulting in them being only
the
third nation to launch a human being into space, by the end of next
week.
They have announced plans to send a man to the moon, and eventually to
Mars. Although the technology they are using now is old-ish (Apollo
era/
Soyuz for the spacecraft), this is non-trivial. I wonder what the
effect
would be on the West of seeing a Chinese astronaut plant that red flag
with yellow stars on the surface of our one moon, let alone Mars. If
the
initial flight is successful I do plan to toast their accomplishment,
but
we have to think about this tit-for-tat stuff in the military area.
Eventually it will all come home to roost, and announcing plans for
absolute military dominance over a potential foe as a long-
term objective shows some real lack of understanding of human nature.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Carl Byrns October 12th 03 09:09 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:08:22 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
.. .


I disagree. If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be
union workers pricing themselves out of the market. Locally, we had a
very established business where the rank and file struck for higher
wages, despite knowing the employer was already fighting off a
diminshing market and offshore competition. You already know the
results- the business folded and the tooling went to- China.


With a good Chinese worker making $0.80/hr., and with productivity in their
better export-oriented plants and shops running perhaps 2/3 of ours, there
was no other possible outcome, Carl. The business would have chiseled them
down as far as they could, pocketed whatever they could, and then gone to
China anyway in a few years. That's happened in several industries over the
last 5-10 years. The forces that would make it necessary to go to China
because you're paying $20/hr. wages are the same forces that would make it
necessary if you were paying $10/hr. wages.

Not so. The business in question made railroad oil lamps and their
number one customer _was_ China. Oops.

You have to ask yourself why this is happening. If NAFTA and China trade are
supposed to leave the high-end jobs in the US (they're even supposed to
*increase* the number of high-end manufacturing jobs in the US, according to
their supporters), why have average manufacturing wages, adjusted for
inflation, declined by 7.6% in the US over the last 25 years or so? There's
a pattern, and there are numbers, and they fly right in the face of the
free-trade doctrine.


Wages have declined because they were too high!
Ed, I worked in an all-union car parts factory for 18 months. The
waste of time and talent was incredible- a janitor makes as much as a
skilled machinist, despite the fact the janitor contributes absolutely
f*cking nothing to the output of the factory.
Only a $50 dollar an hour electrician can screw in a light bulb- if
anyone else does, the union will file a grievance, may stop work in
the plant for a day.
I saw guys guzzle a couple of quarts of Bud for lunch and then go back
to work assembling transmissions. You want to be the lucky new car
owner that winds up with that gearbox? The factory couldn't get rid of
these guys- the union didn't see a problem.
There was one guy who, thanks to a change in job description, was
making 60 grand a year washing cars between coffee breaks and nap
time.

One of the in-house newspapers it was noted that $400 of every car the
company sold went directly to paying retirees. Four hundred bucks of
the customer's money buys the customer nothing at all!

Did you know that UAW workers get paid during a layoff?

The US car companies can't compete with Korea, and, as you say, China
with such cost burdens.

Hyundai is building a world-class car for far less than anyone else
because the company doesn't answer to any organized labor and has no
hidden costs to pass on to the buyer.
In case you haven't noticed, their sales are way up.

Just last week, a large factory announced that it was closing- idling
1200 workers. The jobs are going not to China, but to Singapore.
It's hard to feel sorry for these workers- they were getting big bucks
and bennies for assembly line work and they wouldn't consider even a
small pay cut to stay employed.


How much would the next "small pay cut" be? Where is this headed? China and
Singapore are improving their productivity at a scorching rate. We ship
entire factories over there now, along with managers and trainers, and they
often wind up duplicating the productivity of the former US operations, or
nearly so, in less than a year.
So, how far down are you willing to let
wages go to compete with them? Maybe $2.50/hr?


Which is worse? A reasonable pay cut now, or unemployment in the
future? So far, the unions seem to find some kind of nobility in
striking themselves out of work and then feeding off unemployment or
welfare.
Maybe you find it amusing to watch these guys go fishing with their
bass boats while you go to work. I don't.

Go down to your Chevy dealer in a couple of months and take a look at the
engine in the new Equinox SUV. It's made in China, complete. They're
starting to ship them to Canada this month, to be installed in the SUV's and
shipped to the US.

Are you ready for that? Do you have any experience as a hospital orderly? It
looks like a good job for the coming years. g


And when GM starts closing US plants and those poor, underpaid, UAW
workers start sucking at the welfare tit- are you ready for your taxes
to go up again?

-Carl

Gary Coffman October 12th 03 10:06 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 00:26:02 GMT, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
OSHA and EPA regulations combined amount to around 8% of manufacturing cost
in the US. The wage differential between high-quality workers in China and
high-quality workers in the US runs around 96%.

So you have an 8% solution here to a 96% problem.


What percentage of manufacturing cost is labor?
You're not telling the whole story here.

Lawyers, bureaucrats, and socialists will be the death of this nation.


If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be doctrinaire,
conservative free-trade economics.


If we believe your figures, what's killing US manufacturing
is excessively high wages. Though if you ask the customers,
they're more likely to say it is excessively high prices.

The customers don't much care why prices are higher. It
could be taxes, regulations, raw materials cost, labor costs,
etc. To the consumer that's all irrelevant. What they care
about is what they have to pay.

The great post-WWII boom in US manufacturing occurred
when US products sold for prices comparable to the prices
for Chinese products today. I don't think that's a coincidence.

In other words,US manufacturing has priced itself out of the
market. We can argue about why that has happened, but that's
the bottom line, and US manufacturing won't come back unless
it finds a way to turn that around.

At this point, I'll bring out my theory of hamburger economics.
For many years, the price per pound of a US made auto very
closely tracked the price per pound for ground chuck. People
who could afford food could afford a car. Example, in 1967
when ground chuck was just under $1 a pound, a fully loaded
new Chevy Impala was $3400. I bought one.

But today a new fully loaded Chevy Caprice is $38,000 while
ground chuck is just under $2 a pound. My hamburger budget
can no longer afford a new US made car. If I were to buy new,
I'd have to settle for a stripped KIA. I'm not alone in this situation.
Many US made products are now simply far too expensive for
most US workers to afford without going ridiculously deep into
debt.

Auto workers are among the highest paid US manufacturing
workers, and they get a deep discount from their companies
for buying US made cars. But when I drive by the GM and
Ford assembly plants here, I don't see many new GM or
Ford automobiles in the employee parking lots. The workers
simply can't afford the cars that they are building.

If cheaper imports (and used cars) weren't available, they'd
have to take the bus to work. Your proposals to penalize US
consumers with trade barriers would put more US workers on
the bus, but it would be unlikely to generate more employment
in US factories unless the price of US made goods goes down.
And by providing a protectionist monopoly, lowered prices is
the last thing consumers can expect to see.

Gary

Ed Huntress October 12th 03 10:14 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 14:08:22 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
.. .


I disagree. If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be
union workers pricing themselves out of the market. Locally, we had a
very established business where the rank and file struck for higher
wages, despite knowing the employer was already fighting off a
diminshing market and offshore competition. You already know the
results- the business folded and the tooling went to- China.


With a good Chinese worker making $0.80/hr., and with productivity in

their
better export-oriented plants and shops running perhaps 2/3 of ours,

there
was no other possible outcome, Carl. The business would have chiseled

them
down as far as they could, pocketed whatever they could, and then gone to
China anyway in a few years. That's happened in several industries over

the
last 5-10 years. The forces that would make it necessary to go to China
because you're paying $20/hr. wages are the same forces that would make

it
necessary if you were paying $10/hr. wages.

Not so. The business in question made railroad oil lamps and their
number one customer _was_ China. Oops.


So what? How long do you think they'll be making them for *anyone*, if they
have to chisel wages just to keep afloat?

That's a one-way road, Carl. The Chinese are going to beat them all to hell,
no matter what they do. One they're in a wage race to the bottom, competing
with a low-wage country, there's no stopping, until they go overseas
themselves or go bankrupt. Witness Motorola plants in the Midwest;
Swingline; 70% of the textile manufacturers in the US; a growing number of
automotive parts producers; and on and on, in a list that now comprises over
1,000 US companies (as of late last year; the number probably is higher
now).

The US currently is the most productive manufacturing country in the world,
according to the World Bank. We have a tremendous growth rate in
productivity. There's no room there to open the gap, because the Chinese are
becoming more productive at a rate even faster than ours. And they're paying
their workers peanuts.

Anecdote by anecdote, the picture looks confusing. Overall, it's as clear as
a bell.


You have to ask yourself why this is happening. If NAFTA and China trade

are
supposed to leave the high-end jobs in the US (they're even supposed to
*increase* the number of high-end manufacturing jobs in the US, according

to
their supporters), why have average manufacturing wages, adjusted for
inflation, declined by 7.6% in the US over the last 25 years or so?

There's
a pattern, and there are numbers, and they fly right in the face of the
free-trade doctrine.


Wages have declined because they were too high!


Says who? By what standard? The Chinese standard? Yes, they're high by the
Chinese standard. How far down are you willing to see wages go?


Ed, I worked in an all-union car parts factory for 18 months. The
waste of time and talent was incredible- a janitor makes as much as a
skilled machinist, despite the fact the janitor contributes absolutely
f*cking nothing to the output of the factory.
Only a $50 dollar an hour electrician can screw in a light bulb- if
anyone else does, the union will file a grievance, may stop work in
the plant for a day.
I saw guys guzzle a couple of quarts of Bud for lunch and then go back
to work assembling transmissions. You want to be the lucky new car
owner that winds up with that gearbox? The factory couldn't get rid of
these guys- the union didn't see a problem.
There was one guy who, thanks to a change in job description, was
making 60 grand a year washing cars between coffee breaks and nap
time.


I've been in two unions, and I know the stories, Carl. You won't find the
answer there to competing with $0.80/hour wage rates.


One of the in-house newspapers it was noted that $400 of every car the
company sold went directly to paying retirees. Four hundred bucks of
the customer's money buys the customer nothing at all!


It's actually a lot more than $400. They call it "pensions" and "retiree
healthcare plans." They'll be a thing of the past before long. It will do
wonders for US consumption, with half the retirees living on welfare and the
other half sick in state-supported nursing homes.



Did you know that UAW workers get paid during a layoff?


Yup.


The US car companies can't compete with Korea, and, as you say, China
with such cost burdens.


You're focusing on the wrong things, Carl. The answer is in the $0.80/hour
wage rate. (Korea's wage rates run around 34% of ours, too, although the car
industry is almost on a par with us now, see below.) Everything else you're
talking about, added together, constitutes only a small fraction of that
difference. And remember, they're right behind you on productivity, and
closing fast.



Hyundai is building a world-class car for far less than anyone else
because the company doesn't answer to any organized labor and has no
hidden costs to pass on to the buyer.
In case you haven't noticed, their sales are way up.


Hold on to your seat. From Automotive News, Sept. 21, 2003: "This month,
South Korea's largest car maker, Hyundai Motor, agreed to hike wages 8.6
percent, more than twice the inflation rate, after nearly seven weeks of
strikes cost the nation's largest carmaker $1.2 billion in lost output.

"This pushed Hyundai wage rates to more than $20 an hour, closer to U.S.
rates of $25.63 an hour."

Their unions in Korea are ready to strike at the drop of a hat. They've
struck them all, and they're far more demanding that our unions are.
Hyundai's free ride on cheap labor is about to come to a screeching halt.
They're absolutely terrified of China, as is Japan. Just as Koreans were
starting to achieve a developed-world standard of living, along comes this
monster-sized country that's made up 50% of peasants who will work for
almost *any* wage, ready to knock the legs out from under them.


Just last week, a large factory announced that it was closing- idling
1200 workers. The jobs are going not to China, but to Singapore.
It's hard to feel sorry for these workers- they were getting big bucks
and bennies for assembly line work and they wouldn't consider even a
small pay cut to stay employed.


Yeah, the sons of bitches just won't knuckle under and live like the
Singaporese.


How much would the next "small pay cut" be? Where is this headed? China

and
Singapore are improving their productivity at a scorching rate. We ship
entire factories over there now, along with managers and trainers, and

they
often wind up duplicating the productivity of the former US operations,

or
nearly so, in less than a year.
So, how far down are you willing to let
wages go to compete with them? Maybe $2.50/hr?


Which is worse? A reasonable pay cut now, or unemployment in the
future? So far, the unions seem to find some kind of nobility in
striking themselves out of work and then feeding off unemployment or
welfare.


The unions are trying to provoke a political crises in order to get the
government off its insane globalization kick. I don't like their attitudes
or their methods much, but on the trade issue, I'm right behind them. Even
Forbes magazine, that bastion of free-marketeering, says that a better name
for globalization is "the world-wide hunt for lower wages."

We're caught up in a game that's been justified and pushed through the
political process by multinational corporations who want nothing to stand in
the way of their profitability. As several of them have said, they have no
national loyalties and no interest in anything except finding the cheapest
source of production they can, anywhere in the world. They'll carry their
technology anywhere they can get the lowest wage rates.

They don't expect the US to remain the engine of growth for long, because
they're the very ones who are trying to undermine it as fast as they can.

Maybe you find it amusing to watch these guys go fishing with their
bass boats while you go to work. I don't.


More power to them. The US economy since WWII has been built on an
underworked, overpaid middle class. May they rise again.


Go down to your Chevy dealer in a couple of months and take a look at the
engine in the new Equinox SUV. It's made in China, complete. They're
starting to ship them to Canada this month, to be installed in the SUV's

and
shipped to the US.

Are you ready for that? Do you have any experience as a hospital orderly?

It
looks like a good job for the coming years. g


And when GM starts closing US plants and those poor, underpaid, UAW
workers start sucking at the welfare tit- are you ready for your taxes
to go up again?


Who will be left to pay them? Whose rates are you going to raise?

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)



dann mann October 12th 03 10:21 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
Face it. There are no more jobs like this in the USA. Find some way to
make something new that they might want to buy from us.
Other option: we have a beautiful country. Explore. Innovate, enjoy.
Teach your kids about our uniqueness in the world. This simple ideal is
why most of the inhabitants of our planet find the US attractive. We
love our stuff and the comfort. Ride a bike. Go skiing. Have fun.





Gary Coffman October 12th 03 10:28 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:28:36 GMT, "Mike H" mikehg1@removethis foraccess-4-free.com wrote:
"AL" wrote in message
.net...
No one is wearing safety glasses.


If you read into the article a little deeper the writer points out that
safety equipment is made available and is mandatory for the workers,
however, they were allowed to remove them while he was taking pictures.


Yeah, that's what the article says. But if you look in the far background
of a lot of those pictures, the workers back there aren't wearing safety
glasses either. Oddly enough, though, only 2 people in all the pictures
are wearing any sort of glasses. I can't believe all the workers have
perfect vision, so there may be something to the idea that they removed
their glasses to look better in the photos.

That said, the plant looks a lot cleaner, neater, and better lit than many
US fabrication plants I've seen. The workers also look cleaner, better
dressed, and better groomed than what is typical for US workers. You
get the impression that the workers take a lot of pride in what they are
doing.

Gary

Ed Huntress October 12th 03 10:38 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 00:26:02 GMT, "Ed Huntress"

wrote:
OSHA and EPA regulations combined amount to around 8% of manufacturing

cost
in the US. The wage differential between high-quality workers in China

and
high-quality workers in the US runs around 96%.

So you have an 8% solution here to a 96% problem.


What percentage of manufacturing cost is labor?
You're not telling the whole story here.


Nearly 100%. If you've bought into the "10 - 12% direct labor" figure and
don't understand why I say nearly 100%, we can discuss.



Lawyers, bureaucrats, and socialists will be the death of this nation.


If anything kills manufacturing in the US, it will be doctrinaire,
conservative free-trade economics.


If we believe your figures, what's killing US manufacturing
is excessively high wages. Though if you ask the customers,
they're more likely to say it is excessively high prices.


Excessively high wages compared to what? Did we have excessively high wages
30 years ago? Manufacturing wages then were higher, adjusted for inflation,
than they are now. Were they too high?


The great post-WWII boom in US manufacturing occurred
when US products sold for prices comparable to the prices
for Chinese products today. I don't think that's a coincidence.


I think that's the silliest parallel I've ever heard.


In other words,US manufacturing has priced itself out of the
market. We can argue about why that has happened, but that's
the bottom line, and US manufacturing won't come back unless
it finds a way to turn that around.


I don't know where you do your research, Gary, but it's in need of some
brushing up. It sounds like it all comes off the top of your head.

What you're talking about is engaging in a race to the bottom, in which the
lowest-wage country sets the standards for everyone else's wages. That's
possible today, even inevitable if you do nothing about it, because
manufacturing technology itself is a freely traded commodity. If you combine
that fact with a free-trade ideology, you've just doomed yourself.

Read Alan Tonelson's book, "The Race To The Bottom." You'll see where your
ideas are headed.

Ed Huntress



Lennie the Lurker October 12th 03 10:41 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"Robin S." wrote in message .. .
"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...

As far as OSHA, I suppose you'd rather see working people torn apart
by open belts, machines without guards on moving parts, or fork trucks
with bad brakes, it goes right along with your small mental ability.
Doesn't interfere with someone's right to kill for profit. (May you
be the next victim)


Excellent post. I work for a company that produces heavy stamping dies (60
ton max, roughly). You should hear the stories...

Fortunately, I was not there the day the fork truck park brake
disengaged and allowed it to roll down the ramp into the block wall at
the bottom. Unfortunately, Mitch was between the truck and the block
wall, with no where else to go. Killed him instantly. The next day
the plant manager spent most of his time bitching about OSHA wanting
to see the records for all of the trucks. Strange how the managers
put more value in the time spent down because they had to get out the
records than they do in peoples lives. "Modern" business practice,
seems to be a little behind the late 1800 practices. However, we can
always say that execs and managers have negative value, better they
get killed than a dog.

George October 12th 03 11:27 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
there IS a MSDS sheet for distilled water...I found it last year and printed
it out for my child's middle school science teacher who didn't know what a
MSDS sheet was (scary)...it was the first example I found on the Internet

"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dan" wrote:
Of note: the lack of any safety equipment... OSHA would have
an heart attack!



OSHA is one of the reasons why that factory is in China and not in

America.

I'm not suggesting that worker safety should be ignored, but OSHA has

become
one of the many bloated self-serving government bureaucracies that has
contributed to forcing manufacturing overseas. I'm sure many of you are
familiar with the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Did you know that

OSHA
even has an MSDS for saline eye wash solution (pure water with a little

bit
of salt added)? I came across that little gem when working in the Navy: I
couldn't believe it when I saw it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an
MSDS for distilled water.

Lawyers, bureaucrats, and socialists will be the death of this nation.





Carl Byrns October 12th 03 11:30 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:14:25 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

The US currently is the most productive manufacturing country in the world,
according to the World Bank. We have a tremendous growth rate in
productivity. There's no room there to open the gap, because the Chinese are
becoming more productive at a rate even faster than ours. And they're paying
their workers peanuts.


You're contradicting yourself- how can the US be the most productive
manufacturing country in the world if the Chinese are becoming more
productive at a rate even faster than ours?
Does that mean China will become more productive than the US, despite
having a 80 cent an hour peasant work force?
If so, why _are_ we paying US factory workers $25.63 an hour? It's
pretty obvious US manufacturing is not getting it's money worth.

You have to ask yourself why this is happening. If NAFTA and China trade

are
supposed to leave the high-end jobs in the US (they're even supposed to
*increase* the number of high-end manufacturing jobs in the US, according

to
their supporters), why have average manufacturing wages, adjusted for
inflation, declined by 7.6% in the US over the last 25 years or so?

There's
a pattern, and there are numbers, and they fly right in the face of the
free-trade doctrine.


Wages have declined because they were too high!


Says who? By what standard? The Chinese standard? Yes, they're high by the
Chinese standard. How far down are you willing to see wages go?


Ed, look at your own numbers. 80 cents an hour vs. $25.63 an hour for
what have to be similar jobs. How much value added does $24.83 buy?
I mean if a former rice farmer can work on assembly line screwing
together V8 engines for 80 cents an hour, what qualities does an
illiterate drunk US worker possess that makes him worth that extra
$24.83? Not to mention other bennies that push his true wages closer
to $50. How can you justify a $48.20 labor gap?

And when GM starts closing US plants and those poor, underpaid, UAW
workers start sucking at the welfare tit- are you ready for your taxes
to go up again?


Who will be left to pay them? Whose rates are you going to raise?


Yours, Ed. You'll still have a job writing editorials on how US unions
took the high road and didn't back down in front of those godless
commies.

-Carl

George October 12th 03 11:34 PM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
Today's Detroit News/Free Press puts much of the blame on undervalued
Chinese currency (government controls the value and it hasn't changed since
1994). Since you've done some research on the problem, I'd like to hear
your opinion...

TIA

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. net...
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:JJ2ib.74215$sp2.38359@lakeread04...


Ed Huntress wrote:



You may want to see an article I just wrote about that. It's 5500
words -- make sure you have some spare time. g

It's in the September issue of Machining. I suspect it will be up on
the website within a couple of weeks, if not already.

Ed Huntress


I saw the April article. Was the June one yours too? I didn't see any
atribution so I thought it was a staff editorial.


Yes, I wrote that one too, but it was signed by "the editors" so we

decided
not to run it with a byline.

Ed Huntress





Gary Coffman October 13th 03 12:01 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:14:25 GMT, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
The US economy since WWII has been built on an
underworked, overpaid middle class. May they rise again.


The reason for that was that at the end of WWII the US was the only
major industrialized nation left with an intact infrastructure. The rest of
the world was either smashed flat, or was made up of remnants of a
colonial infrastructure which held them to peasant level. So the US
could allocate resources profligately without enduring any negative
consequences.

But that day is over, and it won't come back barring a WWIII that
again smashes the world while leaving the US largely intact (unlikely).
Like it or not, the rest of the world either rebuilt, or is building up for
the first time. The US is no longer in such a privileged economic position
that it can dictate that the world's economy must be shaped solely for
the benefit of its fat lazy overpaid and underworked middle class.

In other words, the peculiar circumstances of Eisenhower America
that you dream about have come and gone. They won't be back. There
are six billion people working very hard to see that they won't be back.
We have to adapt to that reality.

Short of an imperialism that any civilized person would decry, 300 million
people consuming 30% of the world's resources cannot be sustained in
the face of 6 billion others who want to live and raise families too.

Gary

Ed Huntress October 13th 03 12:04 AM

Every wanted to see a Chinese production facility?
 
"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:14:25 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

The US currently is the most productive manufacturing country in the

world,
according to the World Bank. We have a tremendous growth rate in
productivity. There's no room there to open the gap, because the Chinese

are
becoming more productive at a rate even faster than ours. And they're

paying
their workers peanuts.


You're contradicting yourself- how can the US be the most productive
manufacturing country in the world if the Chinese are becoming more
productive at a rate even faster than ours?


Because they have a lot of catching up to do. Overall, according to the IMF,
the Chinese productivity is 6% that of the US. But that's a bogus figure,
because it includes swarms of peasants tilling soil with sticks, etc.

Their manufacturing productivity in *export* industries is probably half of
ours overall, with some categories, especially those in which exporting
companies are foreign-owned, coming quite close to our productivity levels.


Does that mean China will become more productive than the US, despite
having a 80 cent an hour peasant work force?


Probably not. Expect their export industries to challenge ours, however, in
one category after another. The car industry is now running at about 50% of
our productivity, but with much larger improvements each year than our rate
(just under 4% for the car industry).


If so, why _are_ we paying US factory workers $25.63 an hour? It's
pretty obvious US manufacturing is not getting it's money worth.


On what basis? Compared to what? Chinese workers? Most factory workers in
the developed world are being paid something like what our workers make.
When you add in benefits, most of Europe is paying more.

If you want to compare our workers with those in low-wage countries, you can
say that we aren't getting as much for our dollar as we would if we employed
people who have no plumbing and no cars. Is that what you're comparing us
with?

Wages have declined because they were too high!


Says who? By what standard? The Chinese standard? Yes, they're high by

the
Chinese standard. How far down are you willing to see wages go?


Ed, look at your own numbers. 80 cents an hour vs. $25.63 an hour for
what have to be similar jobs. How much value added does $24.83 buy?
I mean if a former rice farmer can work on assembly line screwing
together V8 engines for 80 cents an hour, what qualities does an
illiterate drunk US worker possess that makes him worth that extra
$24.83? Not to mention other bennies that push his true wages closer
to $50. How can you justify a $48.20 labor gap?


How can you justify what *you* make? What makes you think you're worth, say,
$5/hour?

If you read my first article on China, you saw an example of a Hong Kong
moldmaking/molding company that moved to mainland China because their
design- and manufacturing engineers were making too much in Hong Kong. They
were up to almost $5/hour. Selfish *******s, those Hong Kong engineers...

It's all relative, Carl. Which way do you want the US to head? Toward two
rice balls per day, with all of us commuting to work on bicycles?


And when GM starts closing US plants and those poor, underpaid, UAW
workers start sucking at the welfare tit- are you ready for your taxes
to go up again?


Who will be left to pay them? Whose rates are you going to raise?


Yours, Ed. You'll still have a job writing editorials on how US unions
took the high road and didn't back down in front of those godless
commies.


Not likely. US manufacturing magazines depend on a healthy base of US
manufacturing. Without that, I don't have a job, you don't have a job, and
we all wind up shining each other's shoes.

Ed Huntress




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