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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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silencers on revolvers
I've read here that silencers are not compatible with revolvers.
The question of why that might be so has bugged me since I read it. Why is that so? Does it have something to do with clearance between cylinder (chamber) and barrel? How about rifles that are not gas-actuated semiautos, i.e. bolt, lever or pump actions? Perhaps it's not feasible to effectively suppress the report of a rifle with supersonic muzzle velocity, which (I think) includes most modern centerfire rifles. I certainly have no need or desire for a silencer, but I'm curious. |
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"Don Foreman" wrote in message
... I've read here that silencers are not compatible with revolvers. The question of why that might be so has bugged me since I read it. Why is that so? Does it have something to do with clearance between cylinder (chamber) and barrel? Yup, that's exactly what it has to do with. Remember that all sound is simply pressure waves in an environmental medium (like air). The purpose of a supressor (the correct term for a "silencer") is to take the high-pressure, high-velocity gases at the muzzle (that are created by the buring cartridge propellant), and simultaneiously reduce their pressure and speed in a controlled manner to minimize the creation of sound pressure waves in the air. It cannot do that if the burning gases are escaping to the atmosphere at the cylinder gap. How about rifles that are not gas-actuated semiautos, i.e. bolt, lever or pump actions? Perhaps it's not feasible to effectively suppress the report of a rifle with supersonic muzzle velocity, which (I think) includes most modern centerfire rifles. Any firearm with a completely enclosed chamber and barrel are good candidates for suppressing with regards to minimizing the report from the burning/expanding gases. Any manually actuated firearm will be inherently quieter than an automatic or semi-automatic for two reasons: you minimize the escaping of propellant gases; and you minimize the cycling sound from the action. For example, there are suppressed Ruger 10/22 rifles where the sound of the cycling semi-automatic action is louder than the muzzle report. So, if the action was not semi-automatic, then that rifle would be even quieter. Yes, one does have to consider the sonic "crack" from supersonic velocity bullets. But even if you fire supersonic rounds, the suppressor has value. While won't be shooting silently, the benefits a 1. The supersonic "crack" alone does not sound quite like a normal gun shot, so that might be confusing to some. 2. The supersonic crack is less localized, so it's more difficult to determine the location of the shooter. 3. Sound volume decreases over distance in accordance with the inverse-square law. So any reduction of sound is beneficial when the listener is not nearby. Regards, Michael |
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On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:07:23 GMT, "DeepDiver"
wrote: "Don Foreman" wrote in message .. . I've read here that silencers are not compatible with revolvers. The question of why that might be so has bugged me since I read it. Why is that so? Does it have something to do with clearance between cylinder (chamber) and barrel? Yup, that's exactly what it has to do with. Remember that all sound is simply pressure waves in an environmental medium (like air). The purpose of a supressor (the correct term for a "silencer") is to take the high-pressure, high-velocity gases at the muzzle (that are created by the buring cartridge propellant), and simultaneiously reduce their pressure and speed in a controlled manner to minimize the creation of sound pressure waves in the air. It cannot do that if the burning gases are escaping to the atmosphere at the cylinder gap. How about rifles that are not gas-actuated semiautos, i.e. bolt, lever or pump actions? Perhaps it's not feasible to effectively suppress the report of a rifle with supersonic muzzle velocity, which (I think) includes most modern centerfire rifles. Any firearm with a completely enclosed chamber and barrel are good candidates for suppressing with regards to minimizing the report from the burning/expanding gases. Any manually actuated firearm will be inherently quieter than an automatic or semi-automatic for two reasons: you minimize the escaping of propellant gases; and you minimize the cycling sound from the action. For example, there are suppressed Ruger 10/22 rifles where the sound of the cycling semi-automatic action is louder than the muzzle report. So, if the action was not semi-automatic, then that rifle would be even quieter. Yes, one does have to consider the sonic "crack" from supersonic velocity bullets. But even if you fire supersonic rounds, the suppressor has value. While won't be shooting silently, the benefits a 1. The supersonic "crack" alone does not sound quite like a normal gun shot, so that might be confusing to some. 2. The supersonic crack is less localized, so it's more difficult to determine the location of the shooter. 3. Sound volume decreases over distance in accordance with the inverse-square law. So any reduction of sound is beneficial when the listener is not nearby. Regards, Michael Thanks, Michael. All of what you said makes sense to me. I might quibble that inverse square law doesn't hold if there is significant near-ground temperature gradient resulting in acoustic refraction -- but that's a nit in this context. You certainly answered my question! |
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"D" == DeepDiver writes:
D "Don Foreman" wrote in message D ... I've read here that silencers are not compatible with revolvers. The question of why that might be so has bugged me since I read it. Why is that so? Does it have something to do with clearance between cylinder (chamber) and barrel? D Yup, that's exactly what it has to do with. Remember that all sound is D simply pressure waves in an environmental medium (like air). The purpose of D a supressor (the correct term for a "silencer") is to take the D high-pressure, high-velocity gases at the muzzle (that are created by the D buring cartridge propellant), and simultaneiously reduce their pressure and D speed in a controlled manner to minimize the creation of sound pressure D waves in the air. It cannot do that if the burning gases are escaping to the D atmosphere at the cylinder gap. Yes. One exception (there may be more) is the Nagant, which actually moves the cylinder forward before firing to close this gap, and has been fitted with silencers. -- C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade. |
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DeepDiver wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message ... I've read here that silencers are not compatible with revolvers. The question of why that might be so has bugged me since I read it. Why is that so? Does it have something to do with clearance between cylinder (chamber) and barrel? Yup, that's exactly what it has to do with. Remember that all sound is simply pressure waves in an environmental medium (like air). The purpose of a supressor (the correct term for a "silencer") is to take the high-pressure, high-velocity gases at the muzzle (that are created by the buring cartridge propellant), and simultaneiously reduce their pressure and speed in a controlled manner to minimize the creation of sound pressure waves in the air. It cannot do that if the burning gases are escaping to the atmosphere at the cylinder gap. Could you enclose the cylinder inside some type of shell the forced the gases to go out the barrel? (a custom built gun and not a modification) Would this cause the remaining rounds to cook off if the gases travelled all around the cylinder? Ken (who knows next to nothing about guns) |
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On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:09:18 -0400, Ken Vale wrote:
Could you enclose the cylinder inside some type of shell the forced the gases to go out the barrel? (a custom built gun and not a modification) Would this cause the remaining rounds to cook off if the gases travelled all around the cylinder? It'd be a lot easier to just not use a design that is inherently difficult to silence. Ken (who knows next to nothing about guns) No problem, and actually the Russian Nagant revolver does somewhat what you describe, only by using the cartridge case itself to make the seal. |
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On 26 Sep 2005 19:09:02 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:09:18 -0400, Ken Vale wrote: Could you enclose the cylinder inside some type of shell the forced the gases to go out the barrel? (a custom built gun and not a modification) Would this cause the remaining rounds to cook off if the gases travelled all around the cylinder? It'd be a lot easier to just not use a design that is inherently difficult to silence. Ken (who knows next to nothing about guns) No problem, and actually the Russian Nagant revolver does somewhat what you describe, only by using the cartridge case itself to make the seal. http://www.buymilsurp.com/pictorials...pictorial.html http://guns.connect.fi/rs/linx.html http://users.skynet.be/HL-Editions/index.html "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 01:35:23 -0500, Don Foreman wrote:
I've read here that silencers are not compatible with revolvers. The question of why that might be so has bugged me since I read it. That was probably me. Why is that so? Does it have something to do with clearance between cylinder (chamber) and barrel? Yup, the gap right there lets out a hella-big blast of gas, so even if you muffle the muzzle blast, you've still got an un-silenced blast to hear. Fire a revolver in a dark range and you can see how dramatic it is. Some, of course, are looser and worse than others, but there has to be a several to many thousandths gap or the thing won't turn...especially once it gets a bit dirty... How about rifles that are not gas-actuated semiautos, i.e. bolt, lever or pump actions? No other path for the expanding gas to leave but the muzzle, so no problem. Semi-autos don't open until the bullet has already left, so generally speaking there is very little pressure in the case when the mechanism opens to eject it, so that's also not a problem. Perhaps it's not feasible to effectively suppress the report of a rifle with supersonic muzzle velocity, which (I think) includes most modern centerfire rifles. You can mute the muzzle blast, but the sonic boom is still there. Subsonic loads would be needed, and getting an accurate one that's subsonic is something I've never experimented with (not wanting to shell out 2 bills for a license to buy a silencer). I certainly have no need or desire for a silencer, but I'm curious. Same here. It's one of those toys that seems like more trouble and cost than it's worth, but being a scientific type person I can't help but want to learn about. Dave Hinz |
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Dave Hinz wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 01:35:23 -0500, Don Foreman wrote: I've read here that silencers are not compatible with revolvers. The question of why that might be so has bugged me since I read it. Same here. It's one of those toys that seems like more trouble and cost than it's worth, but being a scientific type person I can't help but want to learn about. Dave Hinz Dave, Should you ever decide to indulge your curiosity start with a CAR-15. You can build a good suppressor cheaply and subsonic rounds are easy to load or just purchase and even if you don't the thing will be very quiet. The sound is also difficult to recognize if you haven't heard it before but it will really get your attention if you have. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
#10
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On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:50:40 GMT, John R. Carroll wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote: Same here. It's one of those toys that seems like more trouble and cost than it's worth, but being a scientific type person I can't help but want to learn about. Should you ever decide to indulge your curiosity start with a CAR-15. (thinks)... Oddly, enough, I don't have one of those. I wonder how that happened? Pretty sure it's because I like a nice walnut stock, and for reasons I don't understand, I haven't seen anyone sell those for the AR. Maybe that's a market? You can build a good suppressor cheaply and subsonic rounds are easy to load or just purchase and even if you don't the thing will be very quiet. The sound is also difficult to recognize if you haven't heard it before but it will really get your attention if you have. I'd have to check with the people in the ATF and my local SO before I'd consider rolling my own silencer. They're not complex, but I'd need to make sure everything is cool before I did anything resembling that. |
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Dave Hinz wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:50:40 GMT, John R. Carroll wrote: Dave Hinz wrote: Should you ever decide to indulge your curiosity start with a CAR-15. (thinks)... Oddly, enough, I don't have one of those. I wonder how that happened? Pretty sure it's because I like a nice walnut stock, and for reasons I don't understand, I haven't seen anyone sell those for the AR. Maybe that's a market? LOL You can build a good suppressor cheaply and subsonic rounds are easy to load or just purchase and even if you don't the thing will be very quiet. The sound is also difficult to recognize if you haven't heard it before but it will really get your attention if you have. I'd have to check with the people in the ATF and my local SO before I'd consider rolling my own silencer. They're not complex, but I'd need to make sure everything is cool before I did anything resembling that. I think you would find the process a little onerous but I could be wrong. I just don't know your tolerance level for whatever bureaucratic falderal is involved to make any pronouncement. I am sure you would have to jump through hoops. I can tell you that in California that you would likely do a stretch if you were caught fooling around like this, especially since 9/11. Even a first offense as an interested hobbiest. I can't remember the law exactly but I think it's ten years at the state level and the Feds would no doubt pile on. Nothing I have any interest in as a civilian and the days when I would fool around with this stuff under arms are long over. YMMV. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
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On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:32:43 GMT, John R. Carroll wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote: (thinks)... Oddly, enough, I don't have one of those. I wonder how that happened? Pretty sure it's because I like a nice walnut stock, and for reasons I don't understand, I haven't seen anyone sell those for the AR. Maybe that's a market? LOL No, I'm serious. Maybe people would buy nice wood for their ARs. I know I would. I'd have to check with the people in the ATF and my local SO before I'd consider rolling my own silencer. They're not complex, but I'd need to make sure everything is cool before I did anything resembling that. I think you would find the process a little onerous but I could be wrong. I just don't know your tolerance level for whatever bureaucratic falderal is involved to make any pronouncement. I am sure you would have to jump through hoops. Far as I know, it's a letter from the local SO stating that you're not a schmuck (no problem there), and pay your tax stamp to the boys in the sunglasses, and you're good to go. I just have better things to do with that 200 dollars, for something that would essentially be a pointless toy. (I have 30 acres in a rural part of Wisconsin, and the neighbors don't mind when I shoot - more than once, they've come over to join in). I can tell you that in California that you would likely do a stretch if you were caught fooling around like this, especially since 9/11. Even a first offense as an interested hobbiest. Well, to be fair, this is _not_ the sort of thing for casual tinkering. You'd be an idiot to dick around with any sort of ATF offense. I can't remember the law exactly but I think it's ten years at the state level and the Feds would no doubt pile on. Dunno, doesn't matter. I can say with complete certainty that everything I have is 100% legal, and I intend to keep it that way. I don't even have the spike bayonet on my late-model Chinese SKS, (it's OK on the Russians, y'see, because it's different somehow?!?!!) because that would put it into an unimportable configuration. That may have changed with the sunset of the 'ugly gun ban' here a few months back, but as I'm not sure, the spike still is hanging next to the SKS rather than installed on it. Nothing I have any interest in as a civilian and the days when I would fool around with this stuff under arms are long over. YMMV. I would have enjoyed being an armorer, I think. Ah well...twiddling bits pays well too... |
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"Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:50:40 GMT, John R. Carroll wrote: Dave Hinz wrote: Same here. It's one of those toys that seems like more trouble and cost than it's worth, but being a scientific type person I can't help but want to learn about. Should you ever decide to indulge your curiosity start with a CAR-15. (thinks)... Oddly, enough, I don't have one of those. I wonder how that happened? Pretty sure it's because I like a nice walnut stock, and for reasons I don't understand, I haven't seen anyone sell those for the AR. Maybe that's a market? You can build a good suppressor cheaply and subsonic rounds are easy to load or just purchase and even if you don't the thing will be very quiet. The sound is also difficult to recognize if you haven't heard it before but it will really get your attention if you have. I'd have to check with the people in the ATF and my local SO before I'd consider rolling my own silencer. They're not complex, but I'd need to make sure everything is cool before I did anything resembling that. One of the underground publications had silencer plans using automotive shock absorber bodies for the cases. Bob Swinney |
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On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:02:50 -0500, Robert Swinney wrote:
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message ... I'd have to check with the people in the ATF and my local SO before I'd consider rolling my own silencer. They're not complex, but I'd need to make sure everything is cool before I did anything resembling that. One of the underground publications had silencer plans using automotive shock absorber bodies for the cases. Bob Swinney For the record, Bob wrote those last two lines, not me. Bob, please take care with your attributions. I have no interest in being associated with comments that could be construed as advocating building unlicensed, controlled devices. Thank you. Dave Hinz |
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On 21 Sep 2005 14:22:37 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:
You can mute the muzzle blast, but the sonic boom is still there. Subsonic loads would be needed, and getting an accurate one that's subsonic is something I've never experimented with (not wanting to shell out 2 bills for a license to buy a silencer). google ".30 whisper" "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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Dave Hinz wrote:
Same here. It's one of those toys that seems like more trouble and cost than it's worth, but being a scientific type person I can't help but want to learn about. I used to have a match grade heavy barrel Remington .22, forget the exact model. I found this thing was almost silent shooting .22 standard velocity shorts. CB caps were even quiter. I have some BB caps (.22 cal ball and primer, no powder) and these are quieter in my Winchester rifle than my .177 caliber pellet rifle. You can shoot quietly at low cost. Finding low velocity shorts, CB and BB caps can be difficult though. The BB caps I have are Flobert-Patronen, made in Germany by Dynamil Nobel. Jon |
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On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:07:48 -0700, Jon Anderson
wrote: Dave Hinz wrote: Same here. It's one of those toys that seems like more trouble and cost than it's worth, but being a scientific type person I can't help but want to learn about. I used to have a match grade heavy barrel Remington .22, forget the exact model. I found this thing was almost silent shooting .22 standard velocity shorts. CB caps were even quiter. I have some BB caps (.22 cal ball and primer, no powder) and these are quieter in my Winchester rifle than my .177 caliber pellet rifle. You can shoot quietly at low cost. Finding low velocity shorts, CB and BB caps can be difficult though. The BB caps I have are Flobert-Patronen, made in Germany by Dynamil Nobel. Jon Cheaper Than Dirt has CB shorts, as well as primer only .22 shells that are very quiet. The box says pistol ammunition but I run these through my old .22 rifles. And Cabela's has .22 CB shorts on sale right now. I think. Anyway, I'm gonna order some from Cabela's because they have the best price I've ever seen on CB shorts. ERS |
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Eric R Snow wrote:
I used to have a match grade heavy barrel Remington .22, forget the exact model. I found this thing was almost silent shooting .22 standard velocity shorts. CB caps were even quiter. I have some BB caps (.22 cal ball and primer, no powder) and these are quieter in my Winchester rifle than my .177 caliber pellet rifle. You can shoot quietly at low cost. Finding low velocity shorts, CB and BB caps can be difficult though. The BB caps I have are Flobert-Patronen, made in Germany by Dynamil Nobel. Jon I bought some of the Aquila CB caps, $1.99/bx at CTD. They snap like a cap gun. Shooting a railroad tie, the bullet stops flush with the surface. I have tried them in 2 .22 automatic pistols, and an auto rifle (Marlin 60). They would not cycle the action in any of them. So I bought a cheap Heritage Arms revolver, and that looks like the ticket for cheap backyard taget shooting. Rex B |
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Eric R Snow wrote:
Anyway, I'm gonna order some from Cabela's because they have the best price I've ever seen on CB shorts. Thanks for that info Eric! I've always bought ammo locally, and stuff like this is hard to find around here. Jon |
#20
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Take a look at the Aquila rimfire ammo. They make a subsonic round
with a 60 grain bullet. Real quiet and packs quite a wallop. They have an amazingly un-user friendly website. http://www.aguilaammo.com is the company, to see the ammo you need to end up at http://shop.sisna.com/centurionordna...Name=R imfire Accuracy through a standard twist barrel is OK. For real performance you need a slower rate of twist, but then you are getting into a pricey rifle. ..22 SSS-Sniper Subsonic/Brick 500rds $40.00 a brick + S/H 60gr Solid Point Lead Bullet. Velocity: 950fps. Energy: 120Ft-lb. |
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"Wally" wrote in message ... Take a look at the Aquila rimfire ammo. They make a subsonic round with a 60 grain bullet. Real quiet and packs quite a wallop. They have an amazingly un-user friendly website. http://www.aguilaammo.com is the company, to see the ammo you need to end up at http://shop.sisna.com/centurionordna...Name=R imfire Accuracy through a standard twist barrel is OK. For real performance you need a slower rate of twist, but then you are getting into a pricey rifle. OK, you lost me there. Why would accuracy improve with a slower twist? The Greenhill formula uses diameter and bullet length as input variables so there should be no difference if the bullet is going 950 fps or 1400 fps. If anything I would think that a 60 grain bullet would be longer than a standard bullet (around 40 gr) and would need a faster twist. Steve. |
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On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:14:22 -0700, Wally
wrote: .22 SSS-Sniper Subsonic/Brick 500rds $40.00 a brick + S/H 60gr Solid Point Lead Bullet. Velocity: 950fps. Energy: 120Ft-lb. Which compared to high speed from kmart or walmart etc for $13 a brick..is pricy indeed. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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In , on 09/21/05
at 02:22 PM, Dave Hinz said: I certainly have no need or desire for a silencer, but I'm curious. Same here. It's one of those toys that seems like more trouble and cost than it's worth, but being a scientific type person I can't help but want to learn about. It's one of those things you don't think you need until you try one! On a bolt action .22 with subsonic ammo, you can actually hear the firing pin hit the rim - that's the loudest noise the rifle makes. It's MUCH quieter than an air gun - even a plinking spring gun. It lets you shout 2 or 3 bunnies without spooking them all after the first shot. I once even got 4 out of 5 ( I was really mad I couldn't kill the fifth, but he was in a tree & the backdrop wasn't safe) carrion crows in my top field. Carrion crows are about as nasty, suspicious, keen eyed animals you can find ( apart perhaps from accountants) ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- |
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"Don Foreman" wrote in message ... I've read here that silencers are not compatible with revolvers. The question of why that might be so has bugged me since I read it. Why is that so? Does it have something to do with clearance between cylinder (chamber) and barrel? How about rifles that are not gas-actuated semiautos, i.e. bolt, lever or pump actions? Perhaps it's not feasible to effectively suppress the report of a rifle with supersonic muzzle velocity, which (I think) includes most modern centerfire rifles. I certainly have no need or desire for a silencer, but I'm curious. All good answers here. The best pistol to suppress is a P-08 Luger because the chamber pressure is near zero by the time the toggle opens...not that I would know for sure. |
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Don,
I think very few people have ever got to play with silencers for obvious reasons, but I have been fortunate in that respect. I have not only played with designing them, I have had the opportuity to shoot professionally built silenced weapons. My experience includes revolvers, semi autos, rifles in both forms and submachine guns in many calibers. First silenced or suppressed weapons are not silent or even quiet. That is a wives tale. They are quieter than without. As an example, on a 25 M range, 20 ft wide and open at the top with concrete side walls, the shooter cannot safely shoot without ear protection. There is an exception to that last statement and that is the new MP7 from HK. This submachine gun CAN be used safely without hearing protection. The sub 5mm round travels in the 900 MPS range. Additionally, the sonic crack, although present, is very, very quiet. I believe this performance is due to the very small round. Another observation that I have made is the longer the silencer, the quieter the weapon is. As far as action noise, yes it is there, but it is low volume and local. Loose actions make more noise that tight ones. Plastic receivers are quieter than all metal. Inverted cone designs are quieter than designs using packing. Steve "Don Foreman" wrote in message ... I've read here that silencers are not compatible with revolvers. The question of why that might be so has bugged me since I read it. Why is that so? Does it have something to do with clearance between cylinder (chamber) and barrel? How about rifles that are not gas-actuated semiautos, i.e. bolt, lever or pump actions? Perhaps it's not feasible to effectively suppress the report of a rifle with supersonic muzzle velocity, which (I think) includes most modern centerfire rifles. I certainly have no need or desire for a silencer, but I'm curious. |
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