The recent thread on machinery skates had me browsing McMaster Carr's web
page. I'm familiar with the normal kind of machinery skates (they look like
a tiny army tank), and my local tool rental place has them for rent for $13
per day each. The problem is they are about 4-5" high and I can't lift that
much with a pinch bar.

McMaster Carr has inexpensive "roller ball miniature positioning plates"
which are about 1/2" high and appear to be ball bearings contained in a
steel plate. Go to mcmaster.com and put 5764K31 in the search field. Has
anyone tried to move machinery on a smooth level floor using these?

It looks good at first but consider this:
Most machines don't have flat bottoms so to prevent the casting edges,
from going between and binding-up the balls, you'll have to add a 2X4
(the width of the ball plate) under the machine to roll on the plates;
a pretty good lift with a pinch bar.

If you want to lift higher with a pinch bar you lift the machine as
much as you can first and, while holding the machine up, slip a block
under the machine, across the full width of the machine (easier with a
helper). Then reposition your pinch bar on a block the same thickness
you've put under the machine and lift the machine again. You've just
lifted twice as far as you could previously.

If you intend to lift the machine more than say 2 inches (for example
to use thicker roller skates) you should go to the opposite end of the
machine and, if you've set the first end of the machine solidly on
2X4s, raise this other end up to the level of 2-2X4s and blok it; then
you move back to the original side and raise that up to 3-2X4s, etc.
etc. until you get to the height you need to go. It's fast and easy,
just have lots of short pieces of 2X4 and maybe a helper. And watch
where everyone's fingers are, and let everyone know that pinch bars CAN
and DO slip.

That said, to use those plates you should have three to a side to keep
the machine perfectly stable (some machines you could get away with
four) and my handy calculator pen tells me that comes to $93.12 plus
shipping (and maybe tax ?). Why not just use 1/2" rollers ( get three)
a few inches wider than your machine (you want them wider so you can
slide the machine sidways on the rollers when you turn or position.
You can put 1xs or plywood down to protect the floor. A lot faster and
cheaper than any other way to move machines short distances as you
discribe (many times I would have killed for a level floor...Mr.
Lucky). Just watch the fingers.

dennis
in nca

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:09:04 -0500, "AL" wrote:

The recent thread on machinery skates had me browsing McMaster Carr's web
page. I'm familiar with the normal kind of machinery skates (they look like
a tiny army tank), and my local tool rental place has them for rent for $13
per day each. The problem is they are about 4-5" high and I can't lift that
much with a pinch bar.

You have machine tools, but dont have a Simplex jack yet?????? For
shame!!!

McMaster Carr has inexpensive "roller ball miniature positioning plates"
which are about 1/2" high and appear to be ball bearings contained in a
steel plate. Go to mcmaster.com and put 5764K31 in the search field. Has
anyone tried to move machinery on a smooth level floor using these?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

I had thought that the balls were only on one side of the plate, and the
other side was flat. So I would put the balls facing the ground, with the
casting resting on the flat side. Was I mistaken?

I tried 1/4" rollers with a 6000 pound mill and couldn't get it to budge.
Next time I'll try 1/2" rollers.

I'm too scared to lift any machine more than an inch without using my
forklift. Why not just use the forklift? Ideally I would like some of my
machines in a tight space where the machine plus the forklift wouldn't fit.



"rigger" wrote in message
ups.com...
It looks good at first but consider this:
Most machines don't have flat bottoms so to prevent the casting edges,
from going between and binding-up the balls, you'll have to add a 2X4
(the width of the ball plate) under the machine to roll on the plates;
a pretty good lift with a pinch bar.

If you want to lift higher with a pinch bar you lift the machine as
much as you can first and, while holding the machine up, slip a block
under the machine, across the full width of the machine (easier with a
helper). Then reposition your pinch bar on a block the same thickness
you've put under the machine and lift the machine again. You've just
lifted twice as far as you could previously.

If you intend to lift the machine more than say 2 inches (for example
to use thicker roller skates) you should go to the opposite end of the
machine and, if you've set the first end of the machine solidly on
2X4s, raise this other end up to the level of 2-2X4s and blok it; then
you move back to the original side and raise that up to 3-2X4s, etc.
etc. until you get to the height you need to go. It's fast and easy,
just have lots of short pieces of 2X4 and maybe a helper. And watch
where everyone's fingers are, and let everyone know that pinch bars CAN
and DO slip.

That said, to use those plates you should have three to a side to keep
the machine perfectly stable (some machines you could get away with
four) and my handy calculator pen tells me that comes to $93.12 plus
shipping (and maybe tax ?). Why not just use 1/2" rollers ( get three)
a few inches wider than your machine (you want them wider so you can
slide the machine sidways on the rollers when you turn or position.
You can put 1xs or plywood down to protect the floor. A lot faster and
cheaper than any other way to move machines short distances as you
discribe (many times I would have killed for a level floor...Mr.
Lucky). Just watch the fingers.

dennis
in nca

Is a Simplex jack a toe jack? I could see it working on something that is
wider than it is tall (eg. lathe, horizontal mill, shaper, etc.), but
wouldn't it tip over something like a Bridgeport?

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:09:04 -0500, "AL" wrote:

The recent thread on machinery skates had me browsing McMaster Carr's web
page. I'm familiar with the normal kind of machinery skates (they look
like
a tiny army tank), and my local tool rental place has them for rent for
$13
per day each. The problem is they are about 4-5" high and I can't lift
that
much with a pinch bar.

You have machine tools, but dont have a Simplex jack yet?????? For
shame!!!

McMaster Carr has inexpensive "roller ball miniature positioning plates"
which are about 1/2" high and appear to be ball bearings contained in a
steel plate. Go to mcmaster.com and put 5764K31 in the search field. Has
anyone tried to move machinery on a smooth level floor using these?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:52:20 -0500, "AL" wrote:

Is a Simplex jack a toe jack? I could see it working on something that is
wider than it is tall (eg. lathe, horizontal mill, shaper, etc.), but
wouldn't it tip over something like a Bridgeport?


http://cgi.ebay.com/SIMPLEX-NO-85A-HOUSE-RAILROAD-JACK-5-TON_W0QQitemZ7548112752QQcategoryZ61574QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:09:04 -0500, "AL" wrote:

The recent thread on machinery skates had me browsing McMaster Carr's web
page. I'm familiar with the normal kind of machinery skates (they look
like
a tiny army tank), and my local tool rental place has them for rent for
$13
per day each. The problem is they are about 4-5" high and I can't lift
that
much with a pinch bar.

You have machine tools, but dont have a Simplex jack yet?????? For
shame!!!

McMaster Carr has inexpensive "roller ball miniature positioning plates"
which are about 1/2" high and appear to be ball bearings contained in a
steel plate. Go to mcmaster.com and put 5764K31 in the search field. Has
anyone tried to move machinery on a smooth level floor using these?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

The positioning balls are a little lightweight for heavy machinery.
Pipe rollers are still the best and cheapest method for this type of
activity.
Bugs

Looks like the balls protrude on both sides of the plate; at least
that's the way I would design it (if I was smart enough to design
things like that). Lifting one end with a pinch bar, in my opinion, is
the safest way to lift. Fork trucks are great when the weight is high
but not for something like a Bridgeport (which I thought you were
moving; sorry). When you go to 4000# and up you should increase the
thickness of your rollers. On a decently level floor you can roll
15,000# without too much difficulty on 1" rollers. If you move up to
2" rollers you can, subject to the floor condition, roll around items
50,000# and higher (of course your rollers will be solid) as long as
you keep the floor swept in front of the rollers.

Using a 5 ton Simplex style jack means you need to get the machine up
(using a pinch bar or fork lift) about 1 1/2" to just get the jack
underneath it; more than enough to slide rollers under it. Use the bar
(or jack) on the short end of the machine opposite the knee, definitly
not on the long end, which would be a very unstable lifting method.

Just watch those fingers.

dennis
in nca

p.s. The type of pinch bar used is important. The type we used the
most when picking up the end of a 6000#, or under, machine was the type
with a flattened end bent at around 60 degrees. You could usually get
the sharp end of the bar started under almost anything. The other type
of bar you see a lot is the type with the thicker end with a bevel on
it. Those are especially good when you can use a 2X4 under them with
the bevel down (not so easy to get a machine started up with these
unless there is a notch, or something similar to get started with).

I looked again and I think you're right about the balls being on both sides.
When lifting a Bridgeport, I put the forks under the dovetails and then lift
it up an inch or so. It might slip off the forks, but I don't think it
would tip over at that height. The problem with the forklift is that it
plus the machine won't always fit where I want.

I have a pinch bar with a bevel on the thick end. Could you have a look at
page 2693 (just put 2693 in the search field on the left side of
mcmaster.com) and tell me which is the 60 degree one? I think I'll get one
of those.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

"rigger" wrote in message
oups.com...
Looks like the balls protrude on both sides of the plate; at least
that's the way I would design it (if I was smart enough to design
things like that). Lifting one end with a pinch bar, in my opinion, is
the safest way to lift. Fork trucks are great when the weight is high
but not for something like a Bridgeport (which I thought you were
moving; sorry). When you go to 4000# and up you should increase the
thickness of your rollers. On a decently level floor you can roll
15,000# without too much difficulty on 1" rollers. If you move up to
2" rollers you can, subject to the floor condition, roll around items
50,000# and higher (of course your rollers will be solid) as long as
you keep the floor swept in front of the rollers.

Using a 5 ton Simplex style jack means you need to get the machine up
(using a pinch bar or fork lift) about 1 1/2" to just get the jack
underneath it; more than enough to slide rollers under it. Use the bar
(or jack) on the short end of the machine opposite the knee, definitly
not on the long end, which would be a very unstable lifting method.

Just watch those fingers.

dennis
in nca

p.s. The type of pinch bar used is important. The type we used the
most when picking up the end of a 6000#, or under, machine was the type
with a flattened end bent at around 60 degrees. You could usually get
the sharp end of the bar started under almost anything. The other type
of bar you see a lot is the type with the thicker end with a bevel on
it. Those are especially good when you can use a 2X4 under them with
the bevel down (not so easy to get a machine started up with these
unless there is a notch, or something similar to get started with).

On 21 Sep 2005 15:42:17 -0700, "rigger" wrote:

Looks like the balls protrude on both sides of the plate; at least
that's the way I would design it (if I was smart enough to design
things like that). Lifting one end with a pinch bar, in my opinion, is
the safest way to lift. Fork trucks are great when the weight is high
but not for something like a Bridgeport (which I thought you were
moving; sorry). When you go to 4000# and up you should increase the
thickness of your rollers. On a decently level floor you can roll
15,000# without too much difficulty on 1" rollers. If you move up to
2" rollers you can, subject to the floor condition, roll around items
50,000# and higher (of course your rollers will be solid) as long as
you keep the floor swept in front of the rollers.

Using a 5 ton Simplex style jack means you need to get the machine up
(using a pinch bar or fork lift) about 1 1/2" to just get the jack
underneath it; more than enough to slide rollers under it. Use the bar
(or jack) on the short end of the machine opposite the knee, definitly
not on the long end, which would be a very unstable lifting method.

Just watch those fingers.

dennis
in nca

p.s. The type of pinch bar used is important. The type we used the
most when picking up the end of a 6000#, or under, machine was the type
with a flattened end bent at around 60 degrees. You could usually get
the sharp end of the bar started under almost anything. The other type
of bar you see a lot is the type with the thicker end with a bevel on
it. Those are especially good when you can use a 2X4 under them with
the bevel down (not so easy to get a machine started up with these
unless there is a notch, or something similar to get started with).


Several riggers around here use a gizmo that slips over the tounge on
Simplex jacks and allows you to go under the edge of a machine and get
it up far enough to stick a 2x4 or another Simplex jack under it.

Ill make one of those up one of these days.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:08:14 -0500, "AL" wrote:

I looked again and I think you're right about the balls being on both sides.
When lifting a Bridgeport, I put the forks under the dovetails and then lift
it up an inch or so. It might slip off the forks, but I don't think it
would tip over at that height. The problem with the forklift is that it
plus the machine won't always fit where I want.

When picking up a BP with a forklift, always put a small piece of thin
plywood or even carpet on the forks before lifting, and I assume you
know to put a small piece of 2x4 under the ram above the table?

I keep various pieces of 1/4" ply in my rigging box. Even a bit of
corrugated cardboard on the forks will keep even the slipperiest
machine from sliding on the forks.

I have a pinch bar with a bevel on the thick end. Could you have a look at
page 2693 (just put 2693 in the search field on the left side of
mcmaster.com) and tell me which is the 60 degree one? I think I'll get one
of those.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

"rigger" wrote in message
roups.com...
Looks like the balls protrude on both sides of the plate; at least
that's the way I would design it (if I was smart enough to design
things like that). Lifting one end with a pinch bar, in my opinion, is
the safest way to lift. Fork trucks are great when the weight is high
but not for something like a Bridgeport (which I thought you were
moving; sorry). When you go to 4000# and up you should increase the
thickness of your rollers. On a decently level floor you can roll
15,000# without too much difficulty on 1" rollers. If you move up to
2" rollers you can, subject to the floor condition, roll around items
50,000# and higher (of course your rollers will be solid) as long as
you keep the floor swept in front of the rollers.

Using a 5 ton Simplex style jack means you need to get the machine up
(using a pinch bar or fork lift) about 1 1/2" to just get the jack
underneath it; more than enough to slide rollers under it. Use the bar
(or jack) on the short end of the machine opposite the knee, definitly
not on the long end, which would be a very unstable lifting method.

Just watch those fingers.

dennis
in nca

p.s. The type of pinch bar used is important. The type we used the
most when picking up the end of a 6000#, or under, machine was the type
with a flattened end bent at around 60 degrees. You could usually get
the sharp end of the bar started under almost anything. The other type
of bar you see a lot is the type with the thicker end with a bevel on
it. Those are especially good when you can use a 2X4 under them with
the bevel down (not so easy to get a machine started up with these
unless there is a notch, or something similar to get started with).



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Could you have a look at
page 2693 (just put 2693 in the search field on the left side of
mcmaster.com) and tell me which is the 60 degree one? I think I'll get one
of those.

The type we most commonly used was similar to "H". but "J" looks like
it will work well. Nothing under around 4' is effective as you'll be
down on your knees to use it. 4' is also a good length if you're
working by yourself; you can still keep a good, controlled, grip on the
bar and nudge your rollers or blocks underneath with your boot. A 6'
bar would put most people too far away. If you need a little more
"umph" you can add a pipe to lengthen it (if you bend your bar on a
really heavy machine I didn't tell you this).

Just watch those fingers.

dennis
in nca

Gunner noticed:
Several riggers around here use a gizmo that slips over the tounge on
Simplex jacks and allows you to go under the edge of a machine and get
it up far enough to stick a 2x4 or another Simplex jack under it.

Clever idea, I've not seen one of those. If this gizmo extends and
lowers the reach of the jack do they block between the jack and the
machine to keep the jack from tipping forward or have they figured out
something better? Seems like this extension gizmo might be a good
add-on product for a jack. Bet McMasters and others would be
interested.

dennis
in nca

Gunner suggests:
When picking up a BP with a forklift, always put a small piece of thin
plywood or even carpet on the forks before lifting, and I assume you
know to put a small piece of 2x4 under the ram above the table?

I keep various pieces of 1/4" ply in my rigging box. Even a bit of
corrugated cardboard on the forks will keep even the slipperiest
machine from sliding on the forks.

Carpet or cardboard work pretty well but won't give protection to the
edges like a 1x or 2x will give (especially cardboard). When using
thinner forks, lifting a Bridgeport, we would use a 2x under the ram
above the knee and a 1x under the fork at the rear of the machine.
This keeps the machine level.
Make sure your wood is clean as imbedded chips or turnings can really
tear-up finished surfaces.

Just watch those fingers.

dennis
in nca