Hi Group.
I have a 30 x 40 foot metal polebarn which I use for a shop. The back
third, about 30x15, has been internally partitioned and fiberglass
insulated, and I heat it with forced air from a wood boiler and heat
exchanger. It stays quite cozy in the winter (upstate NY), and I use it as
my machine shop. Welding and storage occur in the unheated portion. I would
like to add some insulation to the front portion so I can keep a little heat
on in there. Has anyone got any experience with the radiant barrier types of
insulation systems? I am seeing rolls of the aluminum-foam-aluminum
insulation being quoted with a 14.5 R value. For example, see
http://www.insulation4less.com/
This stuff looks easy to install, being only 1/4 inch thick or so, but does
it really work or are they being optimistic about the numbers? I could go
with a conventional fiberglass system too, it will just be more work to
install it.

Al

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:40:27 GMT, "Alan Raisanen"
wrote:

Hi Group.
I have a 30 x 40 foot metal polebarn which I use for a shop. The back
third, about 30x15, has been internally partitioned and fiberglass
insulated, and I heat it with forced air from a wood boiler and heat
exchanger. It stays quite cozy in the winter (upstate NY), and I use it as
my machine shop. Welding and storage occur in the unheated portion. I would
like to add some insulation to the front portion so I can keep a little heat
on in there. Has anyone got any experience with the radiant barrier types of
insulation systems? I am seeing rolls of the aluminum-foam-aluminum
insulation being quoted with a 14.5 R value. For example, see
http://www.insulation4less.com/
This stuff looks easy to install, being only 1/4 inch thick or so, but does
it really work or are they being optimistic about the numbers? I could go
with a conventional fiberglass system too, it will just be more work to
install it.

Al

I'd test a sample of that foil/foam stuff before I bought much of
it. I'm very skeptical of their R value rating.

They may support those ratings by testing with radiant heaters that
heat objects in the space while air temp stays relatively low. I
strongly doubt that it has R value of 14.5 in terms of thermal
resistivity.

How to test: insulate a small enclosure with the stuff. Tape the
corners and seams to eliminate leaks. Put an electric heating
element, as perhaps a hair dryer element or even just a power
resistor, inside the box, along with a thermometer or thermocouple
probe. Shield the thermometer or probe from radiant heat with a piece
of metal tubing open on both ends.

Feed a measured small amount of power to the heater -- maybe 5 watts.
An approximate but very simple test could be done with a 5-watt
nightlight as a heater, if the thermometer is well-shielded from
radiant heat from the bulb while being open to the air inside the box.

Run it for long enough to reach equilibrium temperature -- might be
several hours. Equilibrium is when the temp inside the box stops
rising.

The R value will be

R = dt * area * 0.293/power where dt is the temperature rise inside
the box above ambient area is the total area of the box's surface and
power is the power (in watts) fed to the heater. Amps * volts.

If the box was 1 foot on each side (6 square feet total) and the
heater was fed 5 watts, dt would be 41 deg F if R is really 14.5.

I've not included the R value of the cardboard here so the rating will
be a bit generous.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:40:27 GMT, "Alan Raisanen"
wrote:


Hi Group.
I have a 30 x 40 foot metal polebarn which I use for a shop. The back
third, about 30x15, has been internally partitioned and fiberglass
insulated, and I heat it with forced air from a wood boiler and heat
exchanger. It stays quite cozy in the winter (upstate NY), and I use it as
my machine shop. Welding and storage occur in the unheated portion. I would
like to add some insulation to the front portion so I can keep a little heat
on in there. Has anyone got any experience with the radiant barrier types of
insulation systems? I am seeing rolls of the aluminum-foam-aluminum
insulation being quoted with a 14.5 R value. For example, see
http://www.insulation4less.com/
This stuff looks easy to install, being only 1/4 inch thick or so, but does
it really work or are they being optimistic about the numbers? I could go
with a conventional fiberglass system too, it will just be more work to
install it.

Al


I'd test a sample of that foil/foam stuff before I bought much of
it. I'm very skeptical of their R value rating.

They may support those ratings by testing with radiant heaters that
heat objects in the space while air temp stays relatively low. I
strongly doubt that it has R value of 14.5 in terms of thermal
resistivity.

How to test: insulate a small enclosure with the stuff. Tape the
corners and seams to eliminate leaks. Put an electric heating
element, as perhaps a hair dryer element or even just a power
resistor, inside the box, along with a thermometer or thermocouple
probe. Shield the thermometer or probe from radiant heat with a piece
of metal tubing open on both ends.

Feed a measured small amount of power to the heater -- maybe 5 watts.
An approximate but very simple test could be done with a 5-watt
nightlight as a heater, if the thermometer is well-shielded from
radiant heat from the bulb while being open to the air inside the box.

Run it for long enough to reach equilibrium temperature -- might be
several hours. Equilibrium is when the temp inside the box stops
rising.

The R value will be

R = dt * area * 0.293/power where dt is the temperature rise inside
the box above ambient area is the total area of the box's surface and
power is the power (in watts) fed to the heater. Amps * volts.

If the box was 1 foot on each side (6 square feet total) and the
heater was fed 5 watts, dt would be 41 deg F if R is really 14.5.

I've not included the R value of the cardboard here so the rating will
be a bit generous.


That would be a *great* science fair project. Too bad
my kid is in college...

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:57:04 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:




That would be a *great* science fair project. Too bad
my kid is in college...

Heck, I'm retired and do stuff like that all the time! In fact, if
Mr. Raisanen wanted to send me a sample of the stuff, I would gladly
do the experiment and report the results.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:57:04 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:



That would be a *great* science fair project. Too bad
my kid is in college...


Heck, I'm retired and do stuff like that all the time! In fact, if
Mr. Raisanen wanted to send me a sample of the stuff, I would gladly
do the experiment and report the results.


fiberglas is still the best dollar per r value. i have a barn insulated
with 1 inch of foil faced iso foam, works well but more money than glas.
Blue foam is good and cheaper

Hi Al,

Radiant barrier doesn't have an R-Value of 14 or anything close. It's
what they call a "comparative" R-Value and is a radiant barrier
industry invention that has no ASTM testing behind it. A Radiant
Barrier is great at what it does; reflect radiant energy. Most
manufacturers claim 98% reflection and I believe it. I also believe
that on a perfect 95F degree day, with a lot of sunshine and you take
two identical structures and insulate one with fiberglass batts and the
other with radiant barrier, you will get an identical internal
temperature reading in both building if you use R-14 insulation batts
in one. The logic being that "comparatively" the same results of R-14
insulation was acheived by radiant barrier and bubble wrap 1/4" thick.

Probably true on that day. Do the same on a 25F degree day and you
would probably have to take all the insulation out of the other
building to match the temperature in the RB building, as the RB would
simply not insulate against conductive cold transfer (and probably aids
it, being a metallic substance) and also reflects away the radiant
energy from the sun that you WANT in the winter. Depends on your
climate...

Anyway, the key to good insulation is the air seal. 2 component
polyurethane foam. A contractor can spray a coat that is closed cell
and practically water proof, will add structural stability to boot, and
is R-7 per inch, but I'm sure has a "comparative" r-value of 30, simply
because no fibrous insulation can seal out air, but who's comparing? I
don't see foam manufacturers or fiberglass manufacturers using
comparative R-values. The whole concept is a marketing effort. I have
called RB manufacturers and the response to my observation has been
that they use "comparative" or "relative" r-value because there is no
R-Value test for a non porous material.

Okay. So you made one up. Commendable and creative, but building code
benchmarks are created by scientists and labs such as ASTM (American
Society for Testing and Materials), UL, BOCA, etc... and if they
haven't developed a test that allows the marketing of bubble wrap and
tin foil sandwich in a "sanctioned" way, there is probably a reason for
that.

But, never offer a problem without a solution is what I live by;
there's also "do-it-yourself foam kits". Just google that search phrase
for lots of options. Just be sure to get E-84 fire rated and 2
component foam, not the "canned" foam like you buy at home depot. This
is 600 board foot kits. Or 620. Anyway, you'll know it when you see it.
Dow makes a Froth Pak, it's called and Tiger Foam is the other 'Big
Name' out there.

Radiant Barriers are decent enough in the deep south or in hot climates
in metal buildings that are sealed well, but if your building leaks air
or if you have winter, I'd go with foam. If you have easy access to a
reasonably priced contractor who will take smaller jobs, more power to
you. The kits are a good option because you can get a couple and do it
in stages, if you are like me and the thought of moving everything out
to let them get in was a move I didn't look forward to. It's more
expensive than radiant barrier, but it works. That's another reason I
liked the kits. I could by one or two a month and tighten up the
building as the leaks and problem areas exposed themselves and then did
the all over coat just before winter hit.

I hope this helps. I mainly answered because of the R-14 claim. I think
the product would sell fine on it's own merit if they just told the
truth. It is good in the summer, bad in the winter. It's like painting
the roof silver..

Stay warm...and keep cool...

abi



Alan Raisanen wrote:
Hi Group.
I have a 30 x 40 foot metal polebarn which I use for a shop. The back
third, about 30x15, has been internally partitioned and fiberglass
insulated, and I heat it with forced air from a wood boiler and heat
exchanger. It stays quite cozy in the winter (upstate NY), and I use it as
my machine shop. Welding and storage occur in the unheated portion. I would
like to add some insulation to the front portion so I can keep a little heat
on in there. Has anyone got any experience with the radiant barrier types of
insulation systems? I am seeing rolls of the aluminum-foam-aluminum
insulation being quoted with a 14.5 R value. For example, see
http://www.insulation4less.com/
This stuff looks easy to install, being only 1/4 inch thick or so, but does
it really work or are they being optimistic about the numbers? I could go
with a conventional fiberglass system too, it will just be more work to
install it.

Al

Excellent post. Thank you!

On 20 Sep 2005 17:59:04 -0700, "abi"
wrote:

Hi Al,

Radiant barrier doesn't have an R-Value of 14 or anything close. It's
what they call a "comparative" R-Value and is a radiant barrier
industry invention that has no ASTM testing behind it. A Radiant
Barrier is great at what it does; reflect radiant energy.
(snip)

Thank you, this is a very helpful post. The lack of any ASTM or other
governing body certifications is what made me uncomfortable about the
radiant barrier insulation in the first place. I imagine the stuff is
helpful in arizona under the hot summer sun, but probably is not going to be
so useful in gloomy cold upstate NY. I'm looking into the foam options from
local suppliers now. Thanks!


"abi" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi Al,

Radiant barrier doesn't have an R-Value of 14 or anything close. It's
what they call a "comparative" R-Value and is a radiant barrier
industry invention that has no ASTM testing behind it. A Radiant
Barrier is great at what it does; reflect radiant energy. Most
manufacturers claim 98% reflection and I believe it. I also believe
that on a perfect 95F degree day, with a lot of sunshine and you take
two identical structures and insulate one with fiberglass batts and the
other with radiant barrier, you will get an identical internal
temperature reading in both building if you use R-14 insulation batts
in one. The logic being that "comparatively" the same results of R-14
insulation was acheived by radiant barrier and bubble wrap 1/4" thick.

Probably true on that day. Do the same on a 25F degree day and you
would probably have to take all the insulation out of the other
building to match the temperature in the RB building, as the RB would
simply not insulate against conductive cold transfer (and probably aids
it, being a metallic substance) and also reflects away the radiant
energy from the sun that you WANT in the winter. Depends on your
climate...

Anyway, the key to good insulation is the air seal. 2 component
polyurethane foam. A contractor can spray a coat that is closed cell
and practically water proof, will add structural stability to boot, and
is R-7 per inch, but I'm sure has a "comparative" r-value of 30, simply
because no fibrous insulation can seal out air, but who's comparing? I
don't see foam manufacturers or fiberglass manufacturers using
comparative R-values. The whole concept is a marketing effort. I have
called RB manufacturers and the response to my observation has been
that they use "comparative" or "relative" r-value because there is no
R-Value test for a non porous material.

Okay. So you made one up. Commendable and creative, but building code
benchmarks are created by scientists and labs such as ASTM (American
Society for Testing and Materials), UL, BOCA, etc... and if they
haven't developed a test that allows the marketing of bubble wrap and
tin foil sandwich in a "sanctioned" way, there is probably a reason for
that.

But, never offer a problem without a solution is what I live by;
there's also "do-it-yourself foam kits". Just google that search phrase
for lots of options. Just be sure to get E-84 fire rated and 2
component foam, not the "canned" foam like you buy at home depot. This
is 600 board foot kits. Or 620. Anyway, you'll know it when you see it.
Dow makes a Froth Pak, it's called and Tiger Foam is the other 'Big
Name' out there.

Radiant Barriers are decent enough in the deep south or in hot climates
in metal buildings that are sealed well, but if your building leaks air
or if you have winter, I'd go with foam. If you have easy access to a
reasonably priced contractor who will take smaller jobs, more power to
you. The kits are a good option because you can get a couple and do it
in stages, if you are like me and the thought of moving everything out
to let them get in was a move I didn't look forward to. It's more
expensive than radiant barrier, but it works. That's another reason I
liked the kits. I could by one or two a month and tighten up the
building as the leaks and problem areas exposed themselves and then did
the all over coat just before winter hit.

I hope this helps. I mainly answered because of the R-14 claim. I think
the product would sell fine on it's own merit if they just told the
truth. It is good in the summer, bad in the winter. It's like painting
the roof silver..

Stay warm...and keep cool...

abi



Alan Raisanen wrote:
Hi Group.
I have a 30 x 40 foot metal polebarn which I use for a shop. The back
third, about 30x15, has been internally partitioned and fiberglass
insulated, and I heat it with forced air from a wood boiler and heat
exchanger. It stays quite cozy in the winter (upstate NY), and I use it
as
my machine shop. Welding and storage occur in the unheated portion. I
would
like to add some insulation to the front portion so I can keep a little
heat
on in there. Has anyone got any experience with the radiant barrier types
of
insulation systems? I am seeing rolls of the aluminum-foam-aluminum
insulation being quoted with a 14.5 R value. For example, see
http://www.insulation4less.com/
This stuff looks easy to install, being only 1/4 inch thick or so, but
does
it really work or are they being optimistic about the numbers? I could go
with a conventional fiberglass system too, it will just be more work to
install it.

Al

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:01:34 GMT, "Alan Raisanen"
wrote:

Thank you, this is a very helpful post. The lack of any ASTM or other
governing body certifications is what made me uncomfortable about the
radiant barrier insulation in the first place. I imagine the stuff is
helpful in arizona under the hot summer sun, but probably is not going to be
so useful in gloomy cold upstate NY. I'm looking into the foam options from
local suppliers now. Thanks!


Some associates of mine who live in Aridzona put up the modern
versions of qounset huts, and had them foamed inside. This works very
very well

Gunner


"abi" wrote in message
roups.com...
Hi Al,

Radiant barrier doesn't have an R-Value of 14 or anything close. It's
what they call a "comparative" R-Value and is a radiant barrier
industry invention that has no ASTM testing behind it. A Radiant
Barrier is great at what it does; reflect radiant energy. Most
manufacturers claim 98% reflection and I believe it. I also believe
that on a perfect 95F degree day, with a lot of sunshine and you take
two identical structures and insulate one with fiberglass batts and the
other with radiant barrier, you will get an identical internal
temperature reading in both building if you use R-14 insulation batts
in one. The logic being that "comparatively" the same results of R-14
insulation was acheived by radiant barrier and bubble wrap 1/4" thick.

Probably true on that day. Do the same on a 25F degree day and you
would probably have to take all the insulation out of the other
building to match the temperature in the RB building, as the RB would
simply not insulate against conductive cold transfer (and probably aids
it, being a metallic substance) and also reflects away the radiant
energy from the sun that you WANT in the winter. Depends on your
climate...

Anyway, the key to good insulation is the air seal. 2 component
polyurethane foam. A contractor can spray a coat that is closed cell
and practically water proof, will add structural stability to boot, and
is R-7 per inch, but I'm sure has a "comparative" r-value of 30, simply
because no fibrous insulation can seal out air, but who's comparing? I
don't see foam manufacturers or fiberglass manufacturers using
comparative R-values. The whole concept is a marketing effort. I have
called RB manufacturers and the response to my observation has been
that they use "comparative" or "relative" r-value because there is no
R-Value test for a non porous material.

Okay. So you made one up. Commendable and creative, but building code
benchmarks are created by scientists and labs such as ASTM (American
Society for Testing and Materials), UL, BOCA, etc... and if they
haven't developed a test that allows the marketing of bubble wrap and
tin foil sandwich in a "sanctioned" way, there is probably a reason for
that.

But, never offer a problem without a solution is what I live by;
there's also "do-it-yourself foam kits". Just google that search phrase
for lots of options. Just be sure to get E-84 fire rated and 2
component foam, not the "canned" foam like you buy at home depot. This
is 600 board foot kits. Or 620. Anyway, you'll know it when you see it.
Dow makes a Froth Pak, it's called and Tiger Foam is the other 'Big
Name' out there.

Radiant Barriers are decent enough in the deep south or in hot climates
in metal buildings that are sealed well, but if your building leaks air
or if you have winter, I'd go with foam. If you have easy access to a
reasonably priced contractor who will take smaller jobs, more power to
you. The kits are a good option because you can get a couple and do it
in stages, if you are like me and the thought of moving everything out
to let them get in was a move I didn't look forward to. It's more
expensive than radiant barrier, but it works. That's another reason I
liked the kits. I could by one or two a month and tighten up the
building as the leaks and problem areas exposed themselves and then did
the all over coat just before winter hit.

I hope this helps. I mainly answered because of the R-14 claim. I think
the product would sell fine on it's own merit if they just told the
truth. It is good in the summer, bad in the winter. It's like painting
the roof silver..

Stay warm...and keep cool...

abi



Alan Raisanen wrote:
Hi Group.
I have a 30 x 40 foot metal polebarn which I use for a shop. The back
third, about 30x15, has been internally partitioned and fiberglass
insulated, and I heat it with forced air from a wood boiler and heat
exchanger. It stays quite cozy in the winter (upstate NY), and I use it
as
my machine shop. Welding and storage occur in the unheated portion. I
would
like to add some insulation to the front portion so I can keep a little
heat
on in there. Has anyone got any experience with the radiant barrier types
of
insulation systems? I am seeing rolls of the aluminum-foam-aluminum
insulation being quoted with a 14.5 R value. For example, see
http://www.insulation4less.com/
This stuff looks easy to install, being only 1/4 inch thick or so, but
does
it really work or are they being optimistic about the numbers? I could go
with a conventional fiberglass system too, it will just be more work to
install it.

Al



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

I have a few publications on insulating that include data on the use
of aluminum foil for insulation. The good and bad is that it depends
on the direction of the heat flow. If the heat flow is down, then
aluminum fail works well. So in Arizona
use aluminum foil in the ceiling to insulate the summer heat. In New
York for the winter use aluminum foil in the floor. The reason is that
if there is no heat flow by convection ( warm air rising ), then
radiant heat flow is the major way the heat moves.


Dan

On 23 Sep 2005 07:17:35 -0700, "
wrote:

I have a few publications on insulating that include data on the use
of aluminum foil for insulation. The good and bad is that it depends
on the direction of the heat flow. If the heat flow is down, then
aluminum fail works well. So in Arizona
use aluminum foil in the ceiling to insulate the summer heat. In New
York for the winter use aluminum foil in the floor. The reason is that
if there is no heat flow by convection ( warm air rising ), then
radiant heat flow is the major way the heat moves.


Dan
I'm thinking of nominating the former owner of this house as Canada's
worst handyman. One of his efforts was to install kraft backed foil on
the lower half of the basement wall between the 1 x 2 strapping and
the sawdust board paneling (nothing up top).
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada