"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

"Bryan" wrote in message
ups.com...
Whilst thinking about another problem, I find myself wondering, "why
is
it that bolts have hex heads rather than octagonal or some other
number?"

Is there some wisdom about the history of this?


First off, ( and most obvious ) if it had anything other than 6 faces,
wouldn't make much sense at all to call it a "hex"......


Eight points tend to strip too easily...

And at some point, needing to tighten fully to 90 degres in order to
be able
to reposition a wrench was apparently too much for design engineers...


I kinda like the NAS style aircraft fasteners, personally.....

--

SVL




Probably because it was the first shape that could be used with existing
tools and tooling. Of course now there are so many different head
designs and sizes used it can be a bother to buy tools to fit. Between
US inch, Metric, Chinese metric, Whitworth, and British Standard that
should be enough. BUT nope we have every type of external and internal
drive thought up as well. Example is the 94 GM Blazer I'm working on. It
has both US inch and Metric sizes, Hex, Internal Hex, Torx and external
torx, Philips, Straight slot, Push nuts, and a few others.




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Steve W. wrote:

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

"Bryan" wrote in message
roups.com...

Whilst thinking about another problem, I find myself wondering, "why

is

it that bolts have hex heads rather than octagonal or some other
number?"

Is there some wisdom about the history of this?


First off, ( and most obvious ) if it had anything other than 6 faces,
wouldn't make much sense at all to call it a "hex"......


Eight points tend to strip too easily...

And at some point, needing to tighten fully to 90 degres in order to

be able

to reposition a wrench was apparently too much for design engineers...


I kinda like the NAS style aircraft fasteners, personally.....

--

SVL





Probably because it was the first shape that could be used with existing
tools and tooling. Of course now there are so many different head
designs and sizes used it can be a bother to buy tools to fit. Between
US inch, Metric, Chinese metric, Whitworth, and British Standard that
should be enough. BUT nope we have every type of external and internal
drive thought up as well. Example is the 94 GM Blazer I'm working on. It
has both US inch and Metric sizes, Hex, Internal Hex, Torx and external
torx, Philips, Straight slot, Push nuts, and a few others.

So is there actually a different standard in China, or by "Chinese
Metric" do you mean Chinese POS equipment that never works right?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

According to jim rozen :
In article , Curly Surmudgeon says...

A hexagon is a natural shape,

Don't see many hexagonal rocks.

I've seen them -- quartz crystals, as well as some other
crystalline materials.

Besides, I know lots of
people with square heads...

There is that. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Curly Surmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:03:44 -0400, Cliff wrote:

On 20 Sep 2005 09:29:47 -0700, "John Martin"
wrote:

Maybe because you can lay out a hexagon on a circle with just a compass
and straightedge?

Doesn't work, you still wind up with an unused (0.14159 * radius)
circumference.

No, that's the chips. Maybe would have been more obvious if the OP had
written "... hexagon IN a circle ...".

-jc-

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message
...
Steve W. wrote:

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in
message
...

"Bryan" wrote in message
roups.com...

Whilst thinking about another problem, I find myself wondering,
"why

is

it that bolts have hex heads rather than octagonal or some other
number?"

Is there some wisdom about the history of this?


First off, ( and most obvious ) if it had anything other than 6
faces,
wouldn't make much sense at all to call it a "hex"......


Eight points tend to strip too easily...

And at some point, needing to tighten fully to 90 degres in order to

be able

to reposition a wrench was apparently too much for design
engineers...


I kinda like the NAS style aircraft fasteners, personally.....

--

SVL





Probably because it was the first shape that could be used with
existing
tools and tooling. Of course now there are so many different head
designs and sizes used it can be a bother to buy tools to fit.
Between
US inch, Metric, Chinese metric, Whitworth, and British Standard
that
should be enough. BUT nope we have every type of external and
internal
drive thought up as well. Example is the 94 GM Blazer I'm working
on. It
has both US inch and Metric sizes, Hex, Internal Hex, Torx and
external
torx, Philips, Straight slot, Push nuts, and a few others.

So is there actually a different standard in China, or by "Chinese
Metric" do you mean Chinese POS equipment that never works right?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

They must have their own version of metric there. Any time I have to
repair Chinese made junk none of the available metric items seem to fit.
Usually end up drilling and tapping to do the repair.



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"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On 20 Sep 2005 10:37:55 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Curly Surmudgeon says...

A hexagon is a natural shape,

Don't see many hexagonal rocks. Besides, I know lots of
people with square heads...

Um, beehives?

Snowflakes....

-jc-

"Will" wrote in message

| On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 18:05:13 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
| wrote:
|
| |
| | "Cliff" wrote: (clip) Will this morph into another bible "wisdom"
| | thread? (clip)
| | "Curly Surmudgeon" wrote" (clip) A hexagon is a natural shape
| | (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
| | Then how come haloes aren't hexagonal?
| |
| Because halos are a corona effect.

Does that mean that you need a lime and some nachos?

moT

A couple of things come to mind why hexagons might be chosen over other
polygons.

Two parallel faces of larger flat dimension than an octagon. You can
slide a wrench straight on from the side unlike twelve point aircraft
stuff. A larger manufacturing tolerance on the head dimension and
matching wrench dimensions because of the larger flats. Can reposition
a wrench in a smaller increment than a square for tight quarters work.

Some blacksmith wanted to stand out in the manufacturing world making
horse buggies. Forging parallel faces is pretty easy compared to
pentagons and septagons.

Interesting question. Thanks

Tom Lipton

wrote in message
oups.com...
| So they fit six and twelve point sockets... Why else ;-)
|
| Think of the expense of everyone having to buy five-sided sockets, or
| some other goofy configuration.

You never looked on top of a fire hydrant did you? They use a five
sided drive there to keep stupid people from opening the valve up.

Reminds me of a funny story... One afternoon I was outside working in
the driveway. There's a fire hydrant half a block from my house, in great
view. A fire truck pulls up to the hydrant (fire station happens to be
about three blocks away from my house, too.) and three firemen hop out, one
with a wrench in hand. They were just wearing blues, so I suspected they
were going to drain the hydrant or something. They were taking it casual
with this assignment, obviously. Idiot number one opens the valve without
taking the cap off, so he closes it again. Idiot number two smacks the cap
to spin it off. Idiot number three was standing about five feet away from
the hydrant when the cap blows off from the pressure, snaps loose from the
lanyard, and slams into the side of idiot number three's knee. While the
first two idiots are thinking this was funny, the idiot number three hits
the ground screaming bloody murder, sounding like he was in some serious
pain. I had to walk back inside to prevent myself from laughing out loud at
the collective stupidity of them all. Shortly after, another fire truck and
an ambulance pulls up, completely blocking the intersection, and carts off
idiot number three.
I still don't think they've fixed that lanyard....

"carl mciver" wrote in message
nk.net...
wrote in message
oups.com...
| So they fit six and twelve point sockets... Why else ;-)
|
| Think of the expense of everyone having to buy five-sided sockets, or
| some other goofy configuration.

You never looked on top of a fire hydrant did you? They use a five
sided drive there to keep stupid people from opening the valve up.

Reminds me of a funny story... One afternoon I was outside working in
the driveway. There's a fire hydrant half a block from my house, in great
view. A fire truck pulls up to the hydrant (fire station happens to be
about three blocks away from my house, too.) and three firemen hop out,
one
with a wrench in hand. They were just wearing blues, so I suspected they
were going to drain the hydrant or something. They were taking it casual
with this assignment, obviously. Idiot number one opens the valve without
taking the cap off, so he closes it again. Idiot number two smacks the
cap
to spin it off. Idiot number three was standing about five feet away from
the hydrant when the cap blows off from the pressure, snaps loose from the
lanyard, and slams into the side of idiot number three's knee. While the
first two idiots are thinking this was funny, the idiot number three hits
the ground screaming bloody murder, sounding like he was in some serious
pain. I had to walk back inside to prevent myself from laughing out loud
at
the collective stupidity of them all. Shortly after, another fire truck
and
an ambulance pulls up, completely blocking the intersection, and carts off
idiot number three.
I still don't think they've fixed that lanyard....


One advantage to the pentagonal fire hydrant valve bolt is that its actual
dimensions don't have to be particualarly precise since the wrench is an
adjustable one.

The wrench has a screw-in handle that pushes against a flat to force the
opposite angle into a "V".

Only 2 pieces and will fit any pentagonal bolt/nut up to 2".

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Curly Surmudgeon says...
A hexagon is a natural shape,

Don't see many hexagonal rocks. Besides, I know lots of
people with square heads...

Try a Google images search for giants causeway

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:44:02 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Example is the 94 GM Blazer I'm working on.

That's not all done with Tinnerman clips?
--
Cliff

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:33:14 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:


They must have their own version of metric there. Any time I have to
repair Chinese made junk none of the available metric items seem to fit.
Usually end up drilling and tapping to do the repair.

DIN Standards ......
--
Cliff

In article , John Chase says...

Don't see many hexagonal rocks.

Snowflakes....

Snowflakes =/= rocks.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 21 Sep 2005 06:04:22 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , John Chase says...

Don't see many hexagonal rocks.

Snowflakes....

Snowflakes =/= rocks.

Someone said "in nature" and didn't limit it to rocks, Jim.

carl mciver wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
| So they fit six and twelve point sockets... Why else ;-)
|
| Think of the expense of everyone having to buy five-sided sockets, or
| some other goofy configuration.

You never looked on top of a fire hydrant did you? They use a five
sided drive there to keep stupid people from opening the valve up.

Reminds me of a funny story... One afternoon I was outside working in
the driveway. There's a fire hydrant half a block from my house, in great
view. A fire truck pulls up to the hydrant (fire station happens to be
about three blocks away from my house, too.) and three firemen hop out, one
with a wrench in hand. They were just wearing blues, so I suspected they
were going to drain the hydrant or something. They were taking it casual
with this assignment, obviously. Idiot number one opens the valve without
taking the cap off, so he closes it again. Idiot number two smacks the cap
to spin it off. Idiot number three was standing about five feet away from
the hydrant when the cap blows off from the pressure, snaps loose from the
lanyard, and slams into the side of idiot number three's knee. While the
first two idiots are thinking this was funny, the idiot number three hits
the ground screaming bloody murder, sounding like he was in some serious
pain. I had to walk back inside to prevent myself from laughing out loud at
the collective stupidity of them all. Shortly after, another fire truck and
an ambulance pulls up, completely blocking the intersection, and carts off
idiot number three.
I still don't think they've fixed that lanyard....



I'm trying to understand how that happened; i.e. where all that energy
was stored, Carl.

The only thing I can come up with is that there must have been a good
sized air pocket above the valve which got compressed by water pressure
when the valve was opened and closed, 'cause I don't think just water or
the hydrant/riser pipe by itself would store enough to do that.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:25:30 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
carl mciver wrote:

Idiot number one opens the valve without
taking the cap off, so he closes it again. Idiot number two smacks the cap
to spin it off. Idiot number three was standing about five feet away from
the hydrant when the cap blows off from the pressure, snaps loose from the
lanyard, and slams into the side of idiot number three's knee.

I'm trying to understand how that happened; i.e. where all that energy
was stored, Carl.

In a big air pocket...

The only thing I can come up with is that there must have been a good
sized air pocket above the valve which got compressed by water pressure
when the valve was opened and closed, 'cause I don't think just water or
the hydrant/riser pipe by itself would store enough to do that.

Exactly. Most hydrants over the last (insert bignum) years have the
shutoff valve on a long temp which goes well underground - prevents
freezing in that sort of climate. So the hydrant is dry for maybe
(thinks) 6 feet of height at a 8" diameter. So, it's compressed to
50PSI (or whatever mains pressure is) once that valve is opened, which
is quite a bit of force on a 6" hose connection.

Dave Hinz

Dave Hinz wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:25:30 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

carl mciver wrote:

Idiot number one opens the valve without
taking the cap off, so he closes it again. Idiot number two smacks the cap
to spin it off. Idiot number three was standing about five feet away from
the hydrant when the cap blows off from the pressure, snaps loose from the
lanyard, and slams into the side of idiot number three's knee.


I'm trying to understand how that happened; i.e. where all that energy
was stored, Carl.


In a big air pocket...


The only thing I can come up with is that there must have been a good
sized air pocket above the valve which got compressed by water pressure
when the valve was opened and closed, 'cause I don't think just water or
the hydrant/riser pipe by itself would store enough to do that.


Exactly. Most hydrants over the last (insert bignum) years have the
shutoff valve on a long temp which goes well underground - prevents
freezing in that sort of climate. So the hydrant is dry for maybe
(thinks) 6 feet of height at a 8" diameter. So, it's compressed to
50PSI (or whatever mains pressure is) once that valve is opened, which
is quite a bit of force on a 6" hose connection.

Dave Hinz


My inquiring mind just had to know...

How does the water drain out and the air get back in when it's time to
close up and go back to the station?

Sure enough, there's a drain valve at the bottom of the hydrant which
opens when the main water valve is closed. I expect they must put some
crushed stone around the bottom to give the water someplace place to go.

This picture shows a hydrant with an automatic drain valve:

http://empire-west.com/iowa_parts_list.htm

That hydrant looks like it uses a toggle action driven by right/left
threads on the valve stem to move the main valve sideways. Clever...

I wonder if they have to leave the cap off until they are sure the water
has drained out to avoid creating an air lock?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:07:18 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

Exactly. Most hydrants over the last (insert bignum) years have the
shutoff valve on a long temp which goes well underground - prevents
freezing in that sort of climate. So the hydrant is dry for maybe
(thinks) 6 feet of height at a 8" diameter. So, it's compressed to
50PSI (or whatever mains pressure is) once that valve is opened, which
is quite a bit of force on a 6" hose connection.

My inquiring mind just had to know...
How does the water drain out and the air get back in when it's time to
close up and go back to the station?

That's a good question. Unfortunately the hydrants I have (long story,
don't ask) are missing that end of the mechanism. I would assume there
is some sort of a drain.

Sure enough, there's a drain valve at the bottom of the hydrant which
opens when the main water valve is closed. I expect they must put some
crushed stone around the bottom to give the water someplace place to go.

Oh good, you saved me a trip to google. Makes sense.

This picture shows a hydrant with an automatic drain valve:

http://empire-west.com/iowa_parts_list.htm

That hydrant looks like it uses a toggle action driven by right/left
threads on the valve stem to move the main valve sideways. Clever...

The ones I have just move the rod up/down, but they're ancient.

I wonder if they have to leave the cap off until they are sure the water
has drained out to avoid creating an air lock?

Dunno. We don't have hydrants in our department's area, our parties
are strictly "BYOW".

Dave Hinz

"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:24:21 -0400, wrote:

polish calipers

Older micrometers?

I've also heard of the "Italian Vernier."

Tape measure...

Regards,

Robin

On 20 Sep 2005 20:01:06 -0700, wrote:

A couple of things come to mind why hexagons might be chosen over other
polygons.

Two parallel faces of larger flat dimension than an octagon. You can
slide a wrench straight on from the side unlike twelve point aircraft
stuff. A larger manufacturing tolerance on the head dimension and
matching wrench dimensions because of the larger flats. Can reposition
a wrench in a smaller increment than a square for tight quarters work.

Some blacksmith wanted to stand out in the manufacturing world making
horse buggies. Forging parallel faces is pretty easy compared to
pentagons and septagons.

Interesting question. Thanks

Tom Lipton


Hex head means 60 degrees between flats.A 15 degree offset open end
wrench has 30 degrees of availability, depending which way you flip
it, so you can turn the nut 15 degrees, flip the wrench, another 15
degrees, etc.as long as you have room for 15 degrees or more of
rotation.

In article , Jeff Wisnia says...

The only thing I can come up with is that there must have been a good
sized air pocket above the valve which got compressed by water pressure
when the valve was opened and closed, 'cause I don't think just water or
the hydrant/riser pipe by itself would store enough to do that.

Hydrants drain down when the valve at the bottom is closed. They're
full of air most of the time - they'de freeze otherwise.

The energy was stored in the air, probably at about 50 psi, in
a volume of pipe 6 feet long and 10 inches in diameter. It's
a good thing he wasn't killed.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:07:18 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:


How does the water drain out and the air get back in when it's time to
close up and go back to the station?

Sure enough, there's a drain valve at the bottom of the hydrant which
opens when the main water valve is closed. I expect they must put some
crushed stone around the bottom to give the water someplace place to go.

This picture shows a hydrant with an automatic drain valve:

http://empire-west.com/iowa_parts_list.htm

That hydrant looks like it uses a toggle action driven by right/left
threads on the valve stem to move the main valve sideways. Clever...

I wonder if they have to leave the cap off until they are sure the water
has drained out to avoid creating an air lock?

Jeff
I've never had the misfortune to see the Hydrant on my lawn in action
but at least twice a year a PUC pickup comes and the driver takes the
cap off and drops a rope in to check for water.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"Robin S." wrote:
I've also heard of the "Italian Vernier."

Tape measure..
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How about a "Polish sausage"?

Polish sausage.

You never looked on top of a fire hydrant did you? They use a five
sided drive there to keep stupid people from opening the valve up.


A regular pipe wrench works fine to open hydrants. At least the ones
I've opened, don't take much force to turn and no damage to the
pentanut. And yes they drain from the bottom, if not open entirely a
lot of water can escape out the bottom, potentially causing problems
(drain closes when valve is fully open).

Eric

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
Snowflakes....

Snowflakes =/= rocks.

Depends on your point of view... a mineralogy book of mine states the most
abundant mineral on earth is ice, covering 1/8 of the crust.

Quartz is mostly hexagonal, among a slew of other minerals. Zinc, magnesium
and titanium, to list a few, are pure metals which crystallize HCP
(hexagonal close-packed).

Tim

--
Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:51:39 -0500, wrote:

"John Martin" wrote:
If the heads were Octagonal, they'd be called Octangonal bolts. Similarly
square heads are called Square head bolts. It follows that hex head bolts have
hexagonal heads.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Best


Square head bolts were a German invention.

Gunner


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"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On 20 Sep 2005 13:04:41 -0700, wrote:

So they fit six and twelve point sockets... Why else ;-)

Think of the expense of everyone having to buy five-sided sockets, or
some other goofy configuration.


Would that be like buying your first metric vehicle?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 02:57:52 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

How about a "Polish sausage"?

Polish sausage.

Why would you want to polish a sausage?

Calling John S. .....
--
Cliff

"Robin S." wrote:

Tape measure...

Nah, a tape measure is a 'yo yo'. Everyone knows that.

W

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 06:40:05 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 20 Sep 2005 13:04:41 -0700, wrote:

So they fit six and twelve point sockets... Why else ;-)

Think of the expense of everyone having to buy five-sided sockets, or
some other goofy configuration.


Would that be like buying your first metric vehicle?
Well, I started out with a '50 Austin A40, bought a cheap set of BSW
open end wrenches and proceeded to drop the pan to block the crank
so's I could get the crank-nut off and replace the seal in the timing
cover - at 17 I didn't know the rope trick.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:07:18 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

Exactly. Most hydrants over the last (insert bignum) years have
the
shutoff valve on a long temp which goes well underground - prevents
freezing in that sort of climate. So the hydrant is dry for maybe
(thinks) 6 feet of height at a 8" diameter. So, it's compressed to
50PSI (or whatever mains pressure is) once that valve is opened,
which
is quite a bit of force on a 6" hose connection.

My inquiring mind just had to know...
How does the water drain out and the air get back in when it's time
to
close up and go back to the station?

That's a good question. Unfortunately the hydrants I have (long
story,
don't ask) are missing that end of the mechanism. I would assume
there
is some sort of a drain.

Sure enough, there's a drain valve at the bottom of the hydrant
which
opens when the main water valve is closed. I expect they must put
some
crushed stone around the bottom to give the water someplace place to
go.

Oh good, you saved me a trip to google. Makes sense.

This picture shows a hydrant with an automatic drain valve:

http://empire-west.com/iowa_parts_list.htm

That hydrant looks like it uses a toggle action driven by right/left
threads on the valve stem to move the main valve sideways. Clever...

The ones I have just move the rod up/down, but they're ancient.

I wonder if they have to leave the cap off until they are sure the
water
has drained out to avoid creating an air lock?

Dunno. We don't have hydrants in our department's area, our parties
are strictly "BYOW".

Dave Hinz


Same thing with us. Do get lucky sometimes and find a pond or pool with
some wet stuff in it. We do have one are that has hydrants BUT those are
ornamental for water flow since they were installed in the mid 40's and
have a HUGE 3" mainline, which with the mineral content in the water has
shrunk to about 1", They are also connected into many private wells and
if you did hook to them you are in for a BIG surprise. We had that
happen back in the 60's when they tried connecting a small pumper to one
as a test. They couldn't get enough water to keep the pump primed.

Steve W.



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On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 06:40:05 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner
quickly quoth:

On 20 Sep 2005 13:04:41 -0700, wrote:

So they fit six and twelve point sockets... Why else ;-)

Think of the expense of everyone having to buy five-sided sockets, or
some other goofy configuration.

Would that be like buying your first metric vehicle?

I have a whole bunch of 5-1/2 sided sockets and wrenches.
They're known as crow's-foot sockets and flare-nut wrenches.


Sorry, they're all SAE, but I do have quite a few 6pt metric sockets,
plus open-end and combo metric wrenches.


----------------------------------------------------------------
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In article ,
jim rozen wrote:

In article , Jeff Wisnia says...

The only thing I can come up with is that there must have been a good
sized air pocket above the valve which got compressed by water pressure
when the valve was opened and closed, 'cause I don't think just water or
the hydrant/riser pipe by itself would store enough to do that.

Hydrants drain down when the valve at the bottom is closed. They're
full of air most of the time - they'de freeze otherwise.

Also prevents a geyser when a car hits 'em. When I was little our
YMCA guy ran over a hydrant on the way from school. I looked down the
hole while we were waiting for the other van to get us and saw the valve
assembly.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
movies.crooksandliars.com/Countdown-Timeline-Katrina.mov

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
SNIP|
| I'm trying to understand how that happened; i.e. where all that energy
| was stored, Carl.
|
| The only thing I can come up with is that there must have been a good
| sized air pocket above the valve which got compressed by water pressure
| when the valve was opened and closed, 'cause I don't think just water or
| the hydrant/riser pipe by itself would store enough to do that.
|
| Jeff

I just learned this evening from a local firefighter that the water
system for this town was built to support a number of paper mills, which are
huge users of water. All but one mill is gone now, but the capacity is
still there, and the system at low points is over 120psi, I'm told, and with
that in mind, I likely have about 75 or so. With a standpipe that long, it
is indeed lucky he got away with a busted up leg. At least it stayed
attached!
I honestly don't recall the exact sequence, but I did see the cap blow
off with a large pop and slam into his knee sideways. He went down like
someone pushing the locked knee of someone standing on one leg. Screaming
bloody murder. I always thought those firemen were real men and would never
scream in pain. Guess I was wrong....

I wouldn't mind asking these folks next time I see them about that
incident, but I'm afraid I'd start laughing when I explain it and someone
might get a little upset....

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 06:42:26 GMT, "carl mciver"
wrote:

I honestly don't recall the exact sequence, but I did see the cap blow
off with a large pop and slam into his knee sideways. He went down like
someone pushing the locked knee of someone standing on one leg. Screaming
bloody murder. I always thought those firemen were real men and would never
scream in pain. Guess I was wrong....

Ever wonder why :kneecapping: someone is considered a really bad
thing?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

It doesn't prevent all of them. Two or three years ago someone ran over one
here and it looked just like on the movies.
Karl

"B.B." u wrote in message
news
In article ,
jim rozen wrote:

In article , Jeff Wisnia says...

The only thing I can come up with is that there must have been a good
sized air pocket above the valve which got compressed by water pressure
when the valve was opened and closed, 'cause I don't think just water or
the hydrant/riser pipe by itself would store enough to do that.

Hydrants drain down when the valve at the bottom is closed. They're
full of air most of the time - they'de freeze otherwise.

Also prevents a geyser when a car hits 'em. When I was little our
YMCA guy ran over a hydrant on the way from school. I looked down the
hole while we were waiting for the other van to get us and saw the valve
assembly.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
movies.crooksandliars.com/Countdown-Timeline-Katrina.mov

"carl mciver" wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
SNIP|
| I'm trying to understand how that happened; i.e. where all that energy
| was stored, Carl.
|
| The only thing I can come up with is that there must have been a good
| sized air pocket above the valve which got compressed by water pressure
| when the valve was opened and closed, 'cause I don't think just water or
| the hydrant/riser pipe by itself would store enough to do that.
|
| Jeff

I just learned this evening from a local firefighter that the water
system for this town was built to support a number of paper mills, which are
huge users of water. All but one mill is gone now, but the capacity is
still there, and the system at low points is over 120psi, I'm told, and with
that in mind, I likely have about 75 or so. With a standpipe that long, it
is indeed lucky he got away with a busted up leg. At least it stayed
attached!
I honestly don't recall the exact sequence, but I did see the cap blow
off with a large pop and slam into his knee sideways. He went down like
someone pushing the locked knee of someone standing on one leg. Screaming
bloody murder. I always thought those firemen were real men and would never
scream in pain. Guess I was wrong....

I wouldn't mind asking these folks next time I see them about that
incident, but I'm afraid I'd start laughing when I explain it and someone
might get a little upset....

The fireman is lucky that all he got was a broken leg. A guy on a
ship was working on a jammed steering gear. They couldn't get a zerk
to take grease. The zerk was being unscrewed when grease pressure
blew out the zerk and killed the unfortunate crewman.
--
Jim

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:42:59 GMT, "Karl Vorwerk"
wrote:

It doesn't prevent all of them. Two or three years ago someone ran over one
here and it looked just like on the movies.
Karl

It all depends on where you live - if the odds of a hard freeze in
your town are at or near zero, the fireplug probably will not have all
that fancy (and very expensive) below-ground valve and self-draining
stuff, the valves are all inside the top of the plug. Shear it off,
and you have an instant municipal fountain.

(At least till they turn off the service valve at the water main.)

They only spend the extra money to rig up freeze-proof fire hydrants
in places where they actually get freezes. And if they don't have the
self-draining hydrants, after they're done testing or using the
hydrant they turn off the bottom valve, siphon out some of the water,
and dump in anti-freeze.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

In article , Karl
Vorwerk says...

It doesn't prevent all of them. Two or three years ago someone ran over one
here and it looked just like on the movies.

Heh. Yep, if you give em a hard enough knock to the side, it seems
to break the valve assembly at the bottom.

This was proved at the corner near my local middle school one
lunchtime. Truck cut the corner too sharp, and the back wheels
clobbered the hydrant which was *right* at the corner.

They had a tough time getting all those kids (me included) back
into the school after lunch recess, the water was shooting about
five feet into the air!

Jim


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