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  #121   Report Post  
 
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BottleBob wrote:
Lew Hartswick wrote:

BottleBob wrote
The Japanese built "Kansai International Airport" on a man-made
island
5 kilometers out to sea.

http://www.takenaka.co.jp/takenaka_e...ix/kiindex.htm
I'm sure we could use similar, or even improved, construction
methods
to rebuild New Orleans above sea level.



Yes! AND it's sinking. It started even before it was finished.


Lew:

The sinking of Kansai Airport seems to have slowed down. The reasons
for the sinking should be thoroughly investigated before using similar
construction methods elsewhere.

They
even tried to make provision for the sinking in some of the surfaces.
All in all "not a good idea" to build any large structures on fill.


It may not be a good idea to build on fill, but New Orleans is in all
probability going to be rebuilt since its such an important port city.
IF it's rebuilt at it's current under sea-level height, that IMO would
just be another tragedy waiting to happen. I'm not a geologist or a
construction engineer but if bedrock under New Orleans (supposedly 80
feet down), could be reached with pile drivings any sinking problem
might be helped.


BB,
Piles don't have to reach "bedrock" to work. Friction can hold them
in place.
Just spotted something.

Both New Orleans & Lake Pontchartrain are on the Mississippi delta,
with Lake Pontchartrain being on the North side of New Orleans.
Sediment under Lake Pontchartrain is reportedly 20,000 feet
deep .... the bedrock is under that, as the oil drillers know.
I don't recall any mountain-building processes in the area that
would have created a 20,000 foot tall mountain under the site of
New Orleans.
So I'd guess that your 80 foot number just applies to how deep
pilings are driven for some purposes and has nothing to do with
your assumed bedrock depth.

This being the case, my recall of things would not have been
far off at all ..... nor my qualified statement much in error,
if at all. Unlike your lint, assumptions & hasty conclusions G.

HTH
--
Cliff

  #122   Report Post  
Tim May
 
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In article . com,
wrote:


Piles don't have to reach "bedrock" to work. Friction can hold them
in place.
Just spotted something.

Both New Orleans & Lake Pontchartrain are on the Mississippi delta,
with Lake Pontchartrain being on the North side of New Orleans.
Sediment under Lake Pontchartrain is reportedly 20,000 feet
deep .... the bedrock is under that, as the oil drillers know.
I don't recall any mountain-building processes in the area that
would have created a 20,000 foot tall mountain under the site of
New Orleans.
So I'd guess that your 80 foot number just applies to how deep
pilings are driven for some purposes and has nothing to do with
your assumed bedrock depth.



You need an education, boy.

Building foundations need only be sunk to the point where a building is
floating.


--Tim May
  #123   Report Post  
John Scheldroup
 
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"Tim May" wrote in message ...
In article . com,
wrote:


Piles don't have to reach "bedrock" to work. Friction can hold them
in place.
Just spotted something.

Both New Orleans & Lake Pontchartrain are on the Mississippi delta,
with Lake Pontchartrain being on the North side of New Orleans.
Sediment under Lake Pontchartrain is reportedly 20,000 feet
deep .... the bedrock is under that, as the oil drillers know.
I don't recall any mountain-building processes in the area that
would have created a 20,000 foot tall mountain under the site of
New Orleans.
So I'd guess that your 80 foot number just applies to how deep
pilings are driven for some purposes and has nothing to do with
your assumed bedrock depth.



You need an education, boy.

Building foundations need only be sunk to the point where a building is
floating.


--Tim May


http://www.southbear.com/New_Orleans/Geography.html
[
When the French arrived at the end of the 17th century, they were greeted by
this swampy land that they called Le Flottant (the Floating Land). Their description
was not far from the truth. The land is naturally very wet, even spongy. A person
must dig through twenty feet of land through a hole that would quickly drown him
as it filled up with water before he reached what can be loosely termed "solid ground".

He'd have to dig another 80 feet before he reached bedrock consisting of compacted
clay, and silty sand. For this reason all structures of any significance must be built
on pilings hammered deep into the ground. Skyscrapers are a new feature to the
city's landscape, as these require pilings of thick concrete set more than a hundred feet
into the ground. Such is the nature of a low-lying alluvial plain such as the Mississippi
River delta.

Surrounding this Floating Land on all sides is water, lots and lots of water. The French
saw the land as an island, which they named the Isle d'Orleans (Isle of Orleans). The
Isle d'Orleans soon became a political and regional entity with geographic boundaries.

These boundaries (outlined in yellow on the photo-map at left) were identified by the
French as the Mississippi River on the west and south, Lake Pontchartrain and Lake
Maurepas on the north, Breton Sound (part of the Gulf of Mexico) on the east, and
what the French named the Iberville River (that connected the Mississippi at Baton Rouge
to Lakes Maurepas and Pontchartrain) to the northwest. This area is on the east bank
of the Mississippi River. However, throughout Louisiana's history - after the territory
was divided along the river itself, and only that part of the original territory west of
the river was known as Louisiana - the Isle of Orleans remained a part of the Lousiana Territory.
]


  #124   Report Post  
Glenn Ashmore
 
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wrote
BB,
Piles don't have to reach "bedrock" to work. Friction can hold them
in place.
Just spotted something.

Both New Orleans & Lake Pontchartrain are on the Mississippi delta,
with Lake Pontchartrain being on the North side of New Orleans.
Sediment under Lake Pontchartrain is reportedly 20,000 feet
deep .... the bedrock is under that, as the oil drillers know.
I don't recall any mountain-building processes in the area that
would have created a 20,000 foot tall mountain under the site of
New Orleans.
So I'd guess that your 80 foot number just applies to how deep
pilings are driven for some purposes and has nothing to do with
your assumed bedrock depth.

This being the case, my recall of things would not have been
far off at all ..... nor my qualified statement much in error,
if at all. Unlike your lint, assumptions & hasty conclusions G.


I think there is a misunderstanding of the term "bedrock". Bedrock is any
consolidated material underlying a loose or poorly consolidated surface
material. It does not have to be some massive igneous or metamorphic layer.
Mudstone, claystone and sandstone can all be bedrock as long as the strata
has not been broken up and intruded into by looser material. Given enough
time and pressure alluvial soil(silt, clay and sand) will aggregate into a
solid mass. It is entirely probable that at about the80 to 100' level the
alluvial material has compacted enough to be called "bedrock". New Orleans
would not be like a city built on an upland or piedmont geology.where there
is a definite boundary between soil and bedrock. It is a more gradual
change so pilings would have to be driven well into the "bed rock" to
support the tall buildings on Canal Street.

This is also a major reason for the land sinking. As the organics decompose
and the finer materials fill voids between the larger ones the volume
decreases. Unless flooding is allowed to add more material on top the
delta will sink.



--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com


  #125   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 22:38:12 -0700, Tim May
wrote:

In article . com,
wrote:


Piles don't have to reach "bedrock" to work. Friction can hold them
in place.
Just spotted something.

Both New Orleans & Lake Pontchartrain are on the Mississippi delta,
with Lake Pontchartrain being on the North side of New Orleans.
Sediment under Lake Pontchartrain is reportedly 20,000 feet
deep .... the bedrock is under that, as the oil drillers know.
I don't recall any mountain-building processes in the area that
would have created a 20,000 foot tall mountain under the site of
New Orleans.
So I'd guess that your 80 foot number just applies to how deep
pilings are driven for some purposes and has nothing to do with
your assumed bedrock depth.



You need an education, boy.

Building foundations need only be sunk to the point where a building is
floating.


As the piles can be of denser material than the soil you
seem to be lacking an education.
Add the building's weight on top of that and it would all
sink per your "theory".

And then you went and claimed "foundations" when "piles" was the
local subject ...

Two out of three?
--
Cliff


  #126   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:37:38 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:

He'd have to dig another 80 feet before he reached bedrock consisting of compacted
clay, and silty sand.


Clay & sand would not be bedrock.
That 20,000 feet gets you to sandstone IIRC.

BTW, New Orleans is sinking at an average of about
one foot every 30 years.
--
Cliff
  #127   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:37:38 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:

Surrounding this Floating Land


Used to be the first spot of high ground ..... New
Orleans was once about 100 miles inland (or inswamp)
from the Gulf.
--
Cliff
  #128   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 07:02:26 GMT, Strabo
wrote:

Corps of Engineer reports have referred to bedrock at 70 feet
at the lake front. Perhaps they mean the sand compaction depth
used by the Pontchatrain roadway support columns.


Could be. It was a report on the roadway's construction
that I saw.

Consider that delta ... how deep is it to the continental
shelf on either side of it? Millions of years of sediments ..
look how much of the midwest US has been deposited
there ..... you can see what's missing, right G?
--
Cliff
  #129   Report Post  
BottleBob
 
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wrote:

BottleBob wrote:


It may not be a good idea to build on fill, but New Orleans is in all
probability going to be rebuilt since its such an important port city.
IF it's rebuilt at it's current under sea-level height, that IMO would
just be another tragedy waiting to happen. I'm not a geologist or a
construction engineer but if bedrock under New Orleans (supposedly 80
feet down), could be reached with pile drivings any sinking problem
might be helped.


BB,
Piles don't have to reach "bedrock" to work. Friction can hold them
in place.
Just spotted something.

Both New Orleans & Lake Pontchartrain are on the Mississippi delta,
with Lake Pontchartrain being on the North side of New Orleans.
Sediment under Lake Pontchartrain is reportedly 20,000 feet
deep .... the bedrock is under that, as the oil drillers know.


Cliff:

I think your definition of "bedrock" needs a tuneup. See what Glenn
Ashmore had to say. Further, reading a geologically related definition
from Wikipedia Encyclopedia might be informative:

================================================== ==============
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedrock

Bedrock is the native consolidated rock underlying the Earth's surface.
Above the bedrock is usually an area of broken and weathered
unconsolidated rock in the basal subsoil. The term implies that the rock
lies in beds, or strata. Under any given location on the surface of the
planet, rock will be found.
The term bedrock may be somewhat misleading, since in many locations,
the bedrock may change over a short distance, or the technical bedrock
may be a thin stratum overlying quite different rock.
================================================== ===============


I don't recall any mountain-building processes in the area that
would have created a 20,000 foot tall mountain under the site of
New Orleans.
So I'd guess that your 80 foot number just applies to how deep
pilings are driven for some purposes and has nothing to do with
your assumed bedrock depth.



An excerpt from a history of New Orleans might clarify some things.
================================================== ================
http://ccspub.objectwareinc.com/do/t...Dof ?id=37577

History of New Orleans:

The bedrock itself is not really "rock," but instead is a varied mix of
semi-compacted clay, silt and silty sand. This Pleistocene bedrock lies
seventy to one hundred feet beneath New Orleans (explaining why, until
recently, it was a chancy and expensive business to build skyscrapers;
requiring pilings to be driven down to at least seventy feet), runs
below Lake Pontchartrain, and crops out on the north side of the lake,
where it forms a low bluff that gives way to low hills covered with
spindly pines.
Much of modern New Orleans is built on muck, with no solid bedrock
until a depth of seventy feet is reached below the surface.
================================================== ================


This being the case, my recall of things would not have been
far off at all ..... nor my qualified statement much in error,
if at all. Unlike your lint, assumptions & hasty conclusions G.


Well, your recall of your prior statements seems to be a bit cloudy.
At first you made this comment: "BTW, It's all built on sediment from
that river. Perhaps miles deep." THEN you corrected that WAG by saying
that bedrock was: "70 to 100 feet by one source." NOW you're saying
it's miles deep again? Make up your mind. Or better yet, just go
troll someone else.


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
  #130   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
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I find it very hard to believe that the sediment is 20,000 feet deep.
I believe there is limestone, sandstone and lots of other stuff in the
strata below. If you use mapquest and search for New Oleans you will see
that 1. the Green square that if a channel was there - it would have dumped
the lake to the Gulf, 2. Why, is there a dike or other obstruction won't it
run under HWY 11 - did the highway form a dike - the Gulf.

I still don't understand why they waited to start pumping. Pump while
the water poured into the city. It might be just 80 or 50% of the net flow.
Every bit counted. It looks like the current pumps are makeshift. I bet
that the pumps are good weather pumps - e.g. it is dry with a little water
ok to pump. A flood puts pumps out of work ? Poor design.

Should be bunk houses with underground power sources and a local oil fired
unit. Then the pump is controlled from a roof entrance or via radio/land line.

The whole lake thing is odd - the eco's wanted water from the lake to go
through the town down the big delta flow. Not across (natural route of a fake lake)
US 11 .

I hope the Corps have a better hand at this and not be controlled by someone
that has a mission of their own.

Mountains - 500 miles west of there are volcano's - gosh - less than than that,
there are some near here. 1000 miles north of them are old mountains that are
diving to the deeps.

The region near the coast is the earliest 'land' time, and is defined as come and go.
Houston is in that area also. Quaternary IIRC.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



wrote:
BottleBob wrote:

Lew Hartswick wrote:

BottleBob wrote

The Japanese built "Kansai International Airport" on a man-made
island
5 kilometers out to sea.

http://www.takenaka.co.jp/takenaka_e...ix/kiindex.htm
I'm sure we could use similar, or even improved, construction
methods
to rebuild New Orleans above sea level.


Yes! AND it's sinking. It started even before it was finished.


Lew:

The sinking of Kansai Airport seems to have slowed down. The reasons
for the sinking should be thoroughly investigated before using similar
construction methods elsewhere.


They
even tried to make provision for the sinking in some of the surfaces.
All in all "not a good idea" to build any large structures on fill.


It may not be a good idea to build on fill, but New Orleans is in all
probability going to be rebuilt since its such an important port city.
IF it's rebuilt at it's current under sea-level height, that IMO would
just be another tragedy waiting to happen. I'm not a geologist or a
construction engineer but if bedrock under New Orleans (supposedly 80
feet down), could be reached with pile drivings any sinking problem
might be helped.



BB,
Piles don't have to reach "bedrock" to work. Friction can hold them
in place.
Just spotted something.

Both New Orleans & Lake Pontchartrain are on the Mississippi delta,
with Lake Pontchartrain being on the North side of New Orleans.
Sediment under Lake Pontchartrain is reportedly 20,000 feet
deep .... the bedrock is under that, as the oil drillers know.
I don't recall any mountain-building processes in the area that
would have created a 20,000 foot tall mountain under the site of
New Orleans.
So I'd guess that your 80 foot number just applies to how deep
pilings are driven for some purposes and has nothing to do with
your assumed bedrock depth.

This being the case, my recall of things would not have been
far off at all ..... nor my qualified statement much in error,
if at all. Unlike your lint, assumptions & hasty conclusions G.

HTH


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  #131   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
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I would guess it is 2,000 feet myself. I can't find my Gulf States Stratigraphic
class book with the secret notes within. (Secret because oil, gas and water drillers
would kill for some of it at the time).

You don't have to be in sand stone to have rock. Limestone is hard rock deep under.
I want to say it is at 400' deep in Houston and San Antonio - so it would be much
the same in the delta. I did once know the strata layers from the gulf to the panhandle
and likewise up from the coast in Mississippi....

It was inland oceans time and time again.
Retreating and depositing.

A trench 20,000 deep filled in with muck from the Mississippi would be strange indeed.
Nothing that tall or that deep ever was in North America or on the Plate. IBY


Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:37:38 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:


He'd have to dig another 80 feet before he reached bedrock consisting of compacted
clay, and silty sand.



Clay & sand would not be bedrock.
That 20,000 feet gets you to sandstone IIRC.

BTW, New Orleans is sinking at an average of about
one foot every 30 years.


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  #132   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
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http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...vee-System.gif
I think this speaks a 1000 words.
Should be a large graphic in the middle of the web page.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Strabo wrote:
In OT - NRA would argue, "Government policies don't kill
people,hurricanes kill people." on Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:38:43
-0400, by Cliff, we read:


On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:37:38 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:


He'd have to dig another 80 feet before he reached bedrock consisting of compacted
clay, and silty sand.


Clay & sand would not be bedrock.
That 20,000 feet gets you to sandstone IIRC.



Its bedrock for the purposes of construction.



BTW, New Orleans is sinking at an average of about
one foot every 30 years.



If that were true people would have been living under water
many years before the levees were constructed.

There are two major factors that led to the basin in which
New Orleans sits. It was not settled underwater.

People settled there to begin with because it was the
highest ground before reaching the inlet to the gulf
near the lake.

There was no significant change in the New Orleans area
until the Mississippi River was constrained upriver by levees
beginning in the 1930s.

In addition the Corps of Engineers rerouted tributaries
and dredged selectively.

When the Mississippi was prevented from meandering, it
altered the way silt was deposited throughout the delta.

Prior to that the land adjoining the river was ordinarily
maintained through movement of the river with the deposition of
silt to offset erosion. It was a building process. This banking
effect kept the ground level at New Orleans at 3 or 4 feet and
minimized flooding between the lake and the river.

The second reason is that the ground level between the lake and
river began to fall in the 1930s due to the weight of
construction and the depletion of groundwater.



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  #133   Report Post  
Gunner Asch
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:07:44 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

I would guess it is 2,000 feet myself. I can't find my Gulf States Stratigraphic
class book with the secret notes within. (Secret because oil, gas and water drillers
would kill for some of it at the time).

You don't have to be in sand stone to have rock. Limestone is hard rock deep under.
I want to say it is at 400' deep in Houston and San Antonio - so it would be much
the same in the delta. I did once know the strata layers from the gulf to the panhandle
and likewise up from the coast in Mississippi....

It was inland oceans time and time again.
Retreating and depositing.

A trench 20,000 deep filled in with muck from the Mississippi would be strange indeed.
Nothing that tall or that deep ever was in North America or on the Plate. IBY


Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


In Matamoros Texas, its at 350' +/minus

I drilled shot holes into it.

Gunner




Cliff wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:37:38 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:


He'd have to dig another 80 feet before he reached bedrock consisting of compacted
clay, and silty sand.



Clay & sand would not be bedrock.
That 20,000 feet gets you to sandstone IIRC.

BTW, New Orleans is sinking at an average of about
one foot every 30 years.


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"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
  #134   Report Post  
Glenn Ashmore
 
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"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
I find it very hard to believe that the sediment is 20,000 feet deep.
I believe there is limestone, sandstone and lots of other stuff in the
strata below. If you use mapquest and search for New Oleans you will see
that 1. the Green square that if a channel was there - it would have
dumped
the lake to the Gulf, 2. Why, is there a dike or other obstruction won't
it
run under HWY 11 - did the highway form a dike - the Gulf.


The sediment is at least 20,000 feet deep but that does not mean it is all
loose material. Limestone, sandstone and such ARE sedimentary. I doubt
there is much limestone as the large fresh water flow of the river
discourages marine corals. OTOH, low to moderate hardness sandstone should
start at the 80 to 100' depth and below about 10,000' it would turn into
metamorphic rocks like phylite and various schist.

I still don't understand why they waited to start pumping. Pump while
the water poured into the city. It might be just 80 or 50% of the net
flow.
Every bit counted. It looks like the current pumps are makeshift. I bet
that the pumps are good weather pumps - e.g. it is dry with a little water
ok to pump. A flood puts pumps out of work ? Poor design.

Should be bunk houses with underground power sources and a local oil fired
unit. Then the pump is controlled from a roof entrance or via radio/land
line.


They were pumping until the power went out. You have to see these stations
to believe them. They are gigantic. The newest is at least 50 years old
and the oldest is over 100. Relocating them would probably cost more than
the entire $14B levee upgrade/renurishment proposal.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com


  #135   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 23:00:09 GMT, Strabo
wrote:

In OT - NRA would argue, "Government policies don't kill
people,hurricanes kill people." on Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:38:43
-0400, by Cliff, we read:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 08:37:38 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:

He'd have to dig another 80 feet before he reached bedrock consisting of compacted
clay, and silty sand.


Clay & sand would not be bedrock.
That 20,000 feet gets you to sandstone IIRC.


Its bedrock for the purposes of construction.


You could go down and open a sandstone mine at 20,000
feet I suppose.

Bedrock is bedrock. It is not loose sand, muck or winger BS.

BTW, New Orleans is sinking at an average of about
one foot every 30 years.


If that were true people would have been living under water
many years before the levees were constructed.


Ummm ..... That's why the built new levees as the city
expanded? And dewatered the swamp ... ?

Is this faith-based winger BS again?

There are two major factors that led to the basin in which
New Orleans sits. It was not settled underwater.


You seem confused again. Why?

People settled there to begin with because it was the
highest ground before reaching the inlet to the gulf
near the lake.


The lake was probably not very material.

There was no significant change in the New Orleans area
until the Mississippi River was constrained upriver by levees
beginning in the 1930s.


Sediment has been compacting & shrinking for millions of years.

In addition the Corps of Engineers rerouted tributaries
and dredged selectively.


Rather than flooding New Orleans every year. I see.

When the Mississippi was prevented from meandering, it
altered the way silt was deposited throughout the delta.


Gee ..... you don't suppose .... Where is it all now?

Prior to that the land adjoining the river was ordinarily
maintained through movement of the river with the deposition of
silt to offset erosion.


Good plan, eh? Bush's again?

BTW, How could it do that if it was always above water?

It was a building process. This banking
effect kept the ground level at New Orleans at 3 or 4 feet and
minimized flooding between the lake and the river.


Some large storm probably raised up the French Quarter.
After all, the rest is lower .....

The second reason is that the ground level between the lake and
river began to fall in the 1930s due to the weight of
construction and the depletion of groundwater.


"Weight of construction"?
How much per square foot does a house weigh compared to a
foot thick layer of muck?

The organics in the sediment decompose. The sediment compacts
with time too.
Dewatering does not help much.
--
Cliff


  #136   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:19:13 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Martin H. Eastburn" quickly quoth:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...vee-System.gif
I think this speaks a 1000 words.
Should be a large graphic in the middle of the web page.


Captioned "Living below the water level? Dumb, dumb, dumb."


- Metaphors Be With You -
http://diversify.com Web Application Programming
  #137   Report Post  
Cliff
 
Posts: n/a
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:07:44 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

I would guess it is 2,000 feet myself.


Source clearly stated 20,000 feet. I was a bit startled myself.

I can't find my Gulf States Stratigraphic
class book with the secret notes within. (Secret because oil, gas and water drillers
would kill for some of it at the time).


They drill past it.

You don't have to be in sand stone to have rock.


True. But that's what seems to have formed there. It is,
after all, geologically new and produced from sediments.

Limestone is hard rock deep under.


Only where it was formed.

I want to say it is at 400' deep in Houston and San Antonio - so it would be much
the same in the delta. I did once know the strata layers from the gulf to the panhandle
and likewise up from the coast in Mississippi....


The delta is over what was once the continental shelf, if not
beyond.

BTW, Why do continents have shelves?

It was inland oceans time and time again.
Retreating and depositing.


Probably not there.

A trench 20,000 deep filled in with muck from the Mississippi would be strange indeed.
Nothing that tall or that deep ever was in North America or on the Plate. IBY


[
The Sigsbee Deep, located in the southwestern quadrant, is the deepest
region of the Gulf of Mexico. Its exact maximum depth is
controversial, and reports by different authors state maximum depths
ranging from 3,750 m to 4,384 m. Mean (average) water depth of the
Gulf is ~1,615 m
]
The map at http://www.gulfbase.org/facts.php shows
the entire delta as being on the continental shelf though.
I'd guess that they made a "typo" on that 20,000 feet -
might be 2,000. (I copied it down at the time G.)

http://www.southbear.com/New_Orleans/Geography.html
[
Lake Pontchartrain and Lake Maurepas were created about 5000 years ago
]
--
Cliff
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Cliff
 
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On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:20:12 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

I still don't understand why they waited to start pumping. Pump while
the water poured into the city.


With the power out?
--
Cliff
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Cliff
 
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:34:38 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

I doubt
there is much limestone as the large fresh water flow of the river
discourages marine corals.


IIRC Some limestones can be formed in other ways, such as by
precipitation.
--
Cliff
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Cliff
 
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:34:38 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

I still don't understand why they waited to start pumping. Pump while
the water poured into the city. It might be just 80 or 50% of the net
flow.
Every bit counted. It looks like the current pumps are makeshift. I bet
that the pumps are good weather pumps - e.g. it is dry with a little water
ok to pump. A flood puts pumps out of work ? Poor design.

Should be bunk houses with underground power sources and a local oil fired
unit. Then the pump is controlled from a roof entrance or via radio/land
line.


They were pumping until the power went out. You have to see these stations
to believe them. They are gigantic. The newest is at least 50 years old
and the oldest is over 100.


Famous invention, those pumps.
http://www.asme.org/history/brochures/h003.pdf (Much
as I hate PDF files.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._Baldwin_Wood
--
Cliff


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Martin H. Eastburn
 
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Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:07:44 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:


I would guess it is 2,000 feet myself.



Source clearly stated 20,000 feet. I was a bit startled myself.

No source given - perhaps they are talking about Basalt.



I can't find my Gulf States Stratigraphic
class book with the secret notes within. (Secret because oil, gas and water drillers
would kill for some of it at the time).



They drill past it.

No they drive past it or drill short in x or y dimension - they would spot traces in the water
if through it.


You don't have to be in sand stone to have rock.



True. But that's what seems to have formed there. It is,
after all, geologically new and produced from sediments.

Wrong - only the surface is the latest stuff. As you go down it gets older and older.
Naturally when an uplift occurs - Cen Tex - the old old stuff hits the surface and the
stuff under is old and oldest.



Limestone is hard rock deep under.



Only where it was formed.

No it isn't limestone - travertine or that stuff in a glass. It hasn't
It turns into rock by compression and heat. Coral reefs are friable - I step
here or there and get cut but crunch this or that. Some Brain corals form central
'rocks' but this whole mass is compressed by the next 100' of coral on top.....
In the Rockies - there are massive coral reefs - high in the mountains. From folding
and because the mountain rose.



I want to say it is at 400' deep in Houston and San Antonio - so it would be much
the same in the delta. I did once know the strata layers from the gulf to the panhandle
and likewise up from the coast in Mississippi....



The delta is over what was once the continental shelf, if not
beyond.

No - not really. The gulf was blasted out by one of the world class objects from space.
It is forming a massive shelf - all the way past the islands of the Gulf area - north of
South America. The central area is being filled in slowly - Much of North America
poured out the rivers as the Ice retreated and the oceans retreated back. The oceans
retreated because of the Continental Arch - and the New Mex. Texas Arch.

LA - and parts of north east Texas, through the Red River area - are in the Arbuckle Basin.



BTW, Why do continents have shelves?

A shelf begins after a content drifts from a spreading crack. The area is slowly filled as
it spreads (toward the filling region if on the East coast as an example.) The constant
flow off the continent dumps junk over the edge and fills in the edge. It continues and pushes
out wider and wider - the soft junk mushes out and down and re-fills.


It was inland oceans time and time again.
Retreating and depositing.



Probably not there.


YES there. For certain there as they retreated from Montana and their last beach is the
current beach of the Texas and La... gulf. Perhaps and that is perhaps the ocean will
retreat more - as it has or comes back and takes back the 'beach' area - the first 50 miles
or more - In Geologic time - that region is a flick of a cat tail.



A trench 20,000 deep filled in with muck from the Mississippi would be strange indeed.
Nothing that tall or that deep ever was in North America or on the Plate. IBY



[
The Sigsbee Deep, located in the southwestern quadrant, is the deepest
region of the Gulf of Mexico. Its exact maximum depth is
controversial, and reports by different authors state maximum depths
ranging from 3,750 m to 4,384 m. Mean (average) water depth of the
Gulf is ~1,615 m
]
The map at http://www.gulfbase.org/facts.php shows

Nice Map!
The baby blue is the shelf - the new junk over the edge stuff -
The blue is the deep hole filled in. The area was either blown out or was
split out of other continents - but it is believed it was a killing zone.


the entire delta as being on the continental shelf though.

The delta makes the contentental shelf.

I'd guess that they made a "typo" on that 20,000 feet -
might be 2,000. (I copied it down at the time G.)

http://www.southbear.com/New_Orleans/Geography.html
[
Lake Pontchartrain and Lake Maurepas were created about 5000 years ago
]


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Martin H. Eastburn
 
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Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn Ashmore wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...

I find it very hard to believe that the sediment is 20,000 feet deep.
I believe there is limestone, sandstone and lots of other stuff in the
strata below. If you use mapquest and search for New Oleans you will see
that 1. the Green square that if a channel was there - it would have
dumped
the lake to the Gulf, 2. Why, is there a dike or other obstruction won't
it
run under HWY 11 - did the highway form a dike - the Gulf.



The sediment is at least 20,000 feet deep but that does not mean it is all
loose material. Limestone, sandstone and such ARE sedimentary. I doubt
there is much limestone as the large fresh water flow of the river
discourages marine corals. OTOH, low to moderate hardness sandstone should
start at the 80 to 100' depth and below about 10,000' it would turn into
metamorphic rocks like phylite and various schist.

Sandstone is metamorphic - e.g. compression or heat to a grade of sandstone.
Some rock hard, some crumble with some effort.
But the deep beds of limestone throughout the gulf and mostly in Texas -
more limestone than any place in the world (and thus cement production..).


I still don't understand why they waited to start pumping. Pump while
the water poured into the city. It might be just 80 or 50% of the net
flow.
Every bit counted. It looks like the current pumps are makeshift. I bet
that the pumps are good weather pumps - e.g. it is dry with a little water
ok to pump. A flood puts pumps out of work ? Poor design.

Should be bunk houses with underground power sources and a local oil fired
unit. Then the pump is controlled from a roof entrance or via radio/land
line.



They were pumping until the power went out. You have to see these stations
to believe them. They are gigantic. The newest is at least 50 years old
and the oldest is over 100. Relocating them would probably cost more than
the entire $14B levee upgrade/renurishment proposal.


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Martin H. Eastburn
 
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Travertine is when water flows over limestone and purculates out.
Central Texas has a lot of this - Marble falls is one place - oh yea Marble is limestone heated.

When I lived in Cen Tex - near Austin - people had to blast holes into the limestone
for a swimming pool. Often the pool would have a bulge on the end or the bottom
a bit deep here or there. That was tons of fun to have a neighbor blast rock
out and get a pool!

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:34:38 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:


I doubt
there is much limestone as the large fresh water flow of the river
discourages marine corals.



IIRC Some limestones can be formed in other ways, such as by
precipitation.


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Martin H. Eastburn
 
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That is no excuse. That means POOR planning. Underwater/ground power could be there.
High lines brought in from Baton Rouge just for those...
Bunker buildings for the pumps and generators that would run for a week in bunker oil.

I lived on an island that was 500 yards wide, a mile and a half long.
The closest support was over 1000 miles away.

We were hit by Typhoons and tidal waves. We had to prepare. Boats coming
from Hawaii over 2500 N miles would only get there to search for flosom.

Planning for the worst is fact. The liberal Gov. & Mayor for many many many years
has wasted and not planned on much at all. They were hit by one in what '69 ?
and didn't learn enough from it to plan for a worst case.

No leaders would have been better. The people would have at least known.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:20:12 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:


I still don't understand why they waited to start pumping. Pump while
the water poured into the city.



With the power out?


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Cliff
 
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:33:00 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:


Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:07:44 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:


I would guess it is 2,000 feet myself.



Source clearly stated 20,000 feet. I was a bit startled myself.


No source given - perhaps they are talking about Basalt.


They said sandstone.
Documentary on the construction of the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway,
but I *may* have heard it wrong too ....


I can't find my Gulf States Stratigraphic
class book with the secret notes within. (Secret because oil, gas and water drillers
would kill for some of it at the time).



They drill past it.


No they drive past it or drill short in x or y dimension - they would spot traces in the water
if through it.


??
This was mentioned as being that sandstone. IF we have the same
subject.

You don't have to be in sand stone to have rock.



True. But that's what seems to have formed there. It is,
after all, geologically new and produced from sediments.


Wrong - only the surface is the latest stuff.


Not "latest". "Geologically new".

As you go down it gets older and older.
Naturally when an uplift occurs - Cen Tex - the old old stuff hits the surface and the
stuff under is old and oldest.


That's not an uplift. That's an inversion or something IIRC. There's
a specific name for it .... which I cannot recall at the moment.

Folding can leave the older stuff atop the newer.

Never studied much, if any, geology. Wish I had at times.



Limestone is hard rock deep under.



Only where it was formed.


No it isn't limestone - travertine or that stuff in a glass.


??
Travertine becomes limestone too IIRC. And limestonecan precipitate
in high CO2 environments IIRC.

It hasn't
It turns into rock by compression and heat.


I don't recall much of either being needed.

Coral reefs are friable - I step
here or there and get cut but crunch this or that. Some Brain corals form central
'rocks' but this whole mass is compressed by the next 100' of coral on top.....
In the Rockies - there are massive coral reefs - high in the mountains. From folding
and because the mountain rose.



I want to say it is at 400' deep in Houston and San Antonio - so it would be much
the same in the delta. I did once know the strata layers from the gulf to the panhandle
and likewise up from the coast in Mississippi....



The delta is over what was once the continental shelf, if not
beyond.


No - not really.


Per the map (cited below) too.

The gulf was blasted out by one of the world class objects from space.


??
You are not confusing this with the Alverez event in the Yucatan,
are you?

It is forming a massive shelf - all the way past the islands of the Gulf area - north of
South America. The central area is being filled in slowly - Much of North America
poured out the rivers as the Ice retreated and the oceans retreated back.


And how deep a canyon was scoured under the site of New Orleans?
Topological maps of the seabed show many deep ones world wide,
all old IIRC.

The oceans
retreated because of the Continental Arch - and the New Mex. Texas Arch.

LA - and parts of north east Texas, through the Red River area - are in the Arbuckle Basin.



BTW, Why do continents have shelves?

A shelf begins after a content drifts from a spreading crack. The area is slowly filled as
it spreads (toward the filling region if on the East coast as an example.) The constant
flow off the continent dumps junk over the edge and fills in the edge. It continues and pushes
out wider and wider - the soft junk mushes out and down and re-fills.


I am rather certain that continental shelves are not made of
deposited sediment.


It was inland oceans time and time again.
Retreating and depositing.



Probably not there.


YES there.


Kind of hard to have an "inland ocean" on the coast.

For certain there as they retreated from Montana and their last beach is the
current beach of the Texas and La... gulf. Perhaps and that is perhaps the ocean will
retreat more - as it has or comes back and takes back the 'beach' area - the first 50 miles
or more - In Geologic time - that region is a flick of a cat tail.



A trench 20,000 deep filled in with muck from the Mississippi would be strange indeed.
Nothing that tall or that deep ever was in North America or on the Plate. IBY



[
The Sigsbee Deep, located in the southwestern quadrant, is the deepest
region of the Gulf of Mexico. Its exact maximum depth is
controversial, and reports by different authors state maximum depths
ranging from 3,750 m to 4,384 m. Mean (average) water depth of the
Gulf is ~1,615 m
]
The map at http://www.gulfbase.org/facts.php shows


Nice Map!
The baby blue is the shelf - the new junk over the edge stuff -
The blue is the deep hole filled in. The area was either blown out or was
split out of other continents - but it is believed it was a killing zone.


"Little is known about the geologic history of the Gulf of Mexico
Basin before Late Triassic time."

"The present Gulf of Mexico basin, in any case, is believed to have
had its origin in Late Triassic time as the result of rifting within
the North American Plate at the time it began to crack and drift away
from the African and South American plates"

No big boom ..... and where would the ejecta be off to?
And it would have been a much larger boom than the Alverez
Yucatan event ..... which ended much life on the planet. The Gulf
is too young for such an impact to have exterminated life a
billion or so years ago.

the entire delta as being on the continental shelf though.


The delta makes the contentental shelf.


Nope.

BTW, When plates collide & one is subducted ..... why
are not the top layers of the subducted one scraped off
to build up mountains at the subduction zone?
There should be mountains off the Pacific coast ......

I'd guess that they made a "typo" on that 20,000 feet -
might be 2,000. (I copied it down at the time G.)

http://www.southbear.com/New_Orleans/Geography.html
[
Lake Pontchartrain and Lake Maurepas were created about 5000 years ago
]


And the last ice age ended when?
--
Cliff


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Cliff
 
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:48:11 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Planning for the worst is fact. The liberal Gov. & Mayor for many many many years
has wasted and not planned on much at all. They were hit by one in what '69 ?
and didn't learn enough from it to plan for a worst case.


Bush & the neocons cut the funding off.
It's all faith-based now, right?
--
Cliff
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Cliff
 
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:48:11 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:


No leaders would have been better. The people would have at least known.


IIRC Three days later they told the shrubbie.
Now he seems to be in a panic .. a tropical storm off Cuba
might trash Seattle or something.

He's forgotten all about those "WMDs" it seems.
And his faith-based stuff ..... though his comments
on praying & thanking "god" for the hurricane were
a bit amusing.
More pork & patronage, eh?
--
Cliff
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Robert Sturgeon
 
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On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:37:00 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

(snips)

I doubt
there is much limestone as the large fresh water flow of the river
discourages marine corals. OTOH, low to moderate hardness sandstone should
start at the 80 to 100' depth and below about 10,000' it would turn into
metamorphic rocks like phylite and various schist.

Sandstone is metamorphic


No, it is not. It is sedimentary. Under enough pressure,
it in turn usually turns into quartzite, which is
metamorphic. For a good rundown on the various rocks, see
http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/rockkey/index.html

And no, I am not a geologist, just an interested amateur.

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
  #149   Report Post  
Lew Hartswick
 
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Robert Sturgeon wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:37:00 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

(snips)


I doubt

there is much limestone as the large fresh water flow of the river
discourages marine corals. OTOH, low to moderate hardness sandstone should
start at the 80 to 100' depth and below about 10,000' it would turn into
metamorphic rocks like phylite and various schist.


Sandstone is metamorphic



No, it is not. It is sedimentary. Under enough pressure,
it in turn usually turns into quartzite, which is
metamorphic. For a good rundown on the various rocks, see
http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/rockkey/index.html

And no, I am not a geologist, just an interested amateur.

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/


Yea, there seems to be a lot of "self styled" geologists around here.
Wonder how many of them ever took a geology course. :-)
...lew...
  #150   Report Post  
Robert Sturgeon
 
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:51:15 GMT, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:37:00 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

(snips)


I doubt

there is much limestone as the large fresh water flow of the river
discourages marine corals. OTOH, low to moderate hardness sandstone should
start at the 80 to 100' depth and below about 10,000' it would turn into
metamorphic rocks like phylite and various schist.

Sandstone is metamorphic



No, it is not. It is sedimentary. Under enough pressure,
it in turn usually turns into quartzite, which is
metamorphic. For a good rundown on the various rocks, see
http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/rockkey/index.html

And no, I am not a geologist, just an interested amateur.

(rest snipped)


Yea, there seems to be a lot of "self styled" geologists around here.
Wonder how many of them ever took a geology course. :-)
...lew...


I did, but I would never claim to have learned anything from
it. That was 40 years ago, and I was inattentive, to say
the very least. I have done a little self-directed study on
the subject lately, but I still wouldn't claim to know a
whole heck of a lot about it. But I do know that sandstone
isn't metamorphic. Living in California, as I do, tends to
focus one's mind on geology.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/


  #151   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:51:15 GMT, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:37:00 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

(snips)


I doubt

there is much limestone as the large fresh water flow of the river
discourages marine corals. OTOH, low to moderate hardness sandstone should
start at the 80 to 100' depth and below about 10,000' it would turn into
metamorphic rocks like phylite and various schist.

Sandstone is metamorphic



No, it is not. It is sedimentary. Under enough pressure,
it in turn usually turns into quartzite, which is
metamorphic. For a good rundown on the various rocks, see
http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/rockkey/index.html

And no, I am not a geologist, just an interested amateur.

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/


Yea, there seems to be a lot of "self styled" geologists around here.
Wonder how many of them ever took a geology course. :-)
...lew...


Gunner raises his hand....


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
  #152   Report Post  
Martin H. Eastburn
 
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No bush didn't cut it off - the eco nuts and locals wanted the stuff junk down canal first.
They changed the order.
Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:48:11 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:


Planning for the worst is fact. The liberal Gov. & Mayor for many many many years
has wasted and not planned on much at all. They were hit by one in what '69 ?
and didn't learn enough from it to plan for a worst case.



Bush & the neocons cut the funding off.
It's all faith-based now, right?


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Cliff
 
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:51:15 GMT, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:37:00 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

(snips)


I doubt

there is much limestone as the large fresh water flow of the river
discourages marine corals.


I don't even know who this is a reply to G.

Why are there seemingly no freshwater corals today?
Why have not corals adapted to colder waters either?
--
Cliff
  #154   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:55:58 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
wrote:

Yea, there seems to be a lot of "self styled" geologists around here.
Wonder how many of them ever took a geology course. :-)
...lew...


I did, but I would never claim to have learned anything from
it. That was 40 years ago, and I was inattentive, to say
the very least.


I noticed those guys.
A good reason not to take such classes at the time it
seemed to me. And many cheated just to get their
one sole required "science" class.
Full of most of the football team too. Though
some of the girls were a bit cute .... and fluffy.
--
Cliff
  #155   Report Post  
Cliff
 
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On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:32:23 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

No bush didn't cut it off - the eco nuts and locals wanted the stuff junk down canal first.
They changed the order.
Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Cliff wrote:
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:48:11 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:


Planning for the worst is fact. The liberal Gov. & Mayor for many many many years
has wasted and not planned on much at all. They were hit by one in what '69 ?
and didn't learn enough from it to plan for a worst case.



Bush & the neocons cut the funding off.
It's all faith-based now, right?


Look again. Bush cut the projects & their budgets.
Winger cant will not change it now.
--
Cliff


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Cliff
 
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On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 03:03:56 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Gunner raises his hand....


Old head injury?
--
Cliff
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