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MP Toolman
 
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Default Brown & Sharpe surface grinder info

I have a Brown & Sharpe 618 Micromaster. Easy to identify because the column
moves in and out (I guess that would be the y axis) instead of the table. I
have not seen that feature in other brands. Mine is a manual machine but does
have a DRO on the Y and Z axes. I bought mine at an auction for $1500 plus a
10% seller's premium. That included a Walker magnetic chuck and controller. I
thought it was a reasonable deal, but not a steal. Mine has an oil sump in the
base and an automatic pump oiler activated by cranking the table back and
forth. I believe the versions with automatic motions use the same sump and oil
for both lube and hydraulic table movement. If I recall correctly, they were
available as completely manual machines, with power X axis only, and also with
power X & Y axis operation.

Mine is a direct drive which I considered to be good, but a friend who runs
grinders for a living likes the belt drive spindles better. He says they are
more thermally stable.

In the consolidation of US machine tool builders, DeVlieg Bullard ended up
owning the Brown & Sharp grinder products. I do not think they make the
grinders anymore, but I am told parts are available (though I suspect they are
unaffordable.)

It is a big heavy solid machine. For my purposes, that is actually the
disadvantage -- it is almost too big and heavy. Somewhat over a ton; around
2500 pounds if I recall correctly. More than my Series 1 Bridgeport. The B&S
Micromaster with its unique moving column design appears to be the biggest,
heaviest 618 grinder around. For a home shop with limited space, that can be a
disadvantage -- especially if you have to move it around occasionally. Though
I am told they are much less capable machines, I actually suspect a lighter
weight, more compact Harig or similar would be better suited to my needs.

For what it is worth,
Mill

Let me start by saying I know precious little about surface grinders,
although I've been looking for one for about a year, and have recently
been using a friend's manual Okamoto (sp?). So, any advice you might
offer will be hugely appreciated.

BTW, that Okamoto appears to me to be a very nice machine. It certainly
does all that I need, and well, but I would like to get an automatic.

Anyway, I'm looking at a Brown & Sharpe surface grinder for sale by a
local machine shop. How can one get information like year manufactured,
user manual or other documentation, etc., on a machine like this? I've
been scouring the web since last night and haven't come up with much.

I have the serial number (523-8181-1083), but I can't tell what model it
is exactly. Appears to be an 818, perhaps a Micromaster, but the seller
had said it is a 6x18. Is there a way to find out the date of manufacture
from the S/N?

Looks like B&S sold its grinder line to Jones & Shipman (?) some time
back, but I couldn't find a J&S web page that had any retro data or info
links for old B&S stuff. Looks also like DeVlieg Bullard
(www.devliegbullard.com/brwnshrp.html) might sell OEM parts and perhaps
manuals for the old B&S grinders. I sent an email to them, yesterday;
hopefully I'll get a response on Monday.

Speaking of automatics, the guy said that this machine was automatic only
in X. Is this a common configuration? For no particular reason, I
expected it to also have the auto-creep in Y if it had the automatic X.

One other thing. The seller replaced this machine with a new Mitsui
(which looks like a helluva machine, BTW) because the B&S dripped a bit
hydraulic fluid from under the table, owing to the design. He said the
hydraulic fluid serves double duty as the way lubricant.

I didn't say anything, but it did raise a couple questions in my mind.
First of all, is it usual for these machines to drip a bit, or does it
sound like something is wrong? And second, is the seller right about the
hydraulic fluid doubling as the way lubricant? That seems a bit strange
to me, but what do I know...

I'm headed back over there Monday to check the machine out more
thoroughly. It's been sitting in a corner unused for a year. He's going
to hook up the power and get it running -- his offer, by the way. He also
suggested that I bring some parts and do some test grinds. That bodes
well; he wouldn't be quick to do that if the machine had any problems.

It comes with a new-looking electromagnetic chuck and a few arbors and
wheels. He's asking $2,000, and I suspect he's firm on that. I meant to
check the brand on the chuck, but I'd bet together with the control it's
got to be worth well over $1,000. We shot the breeze for over an hour
yesterday, and he strikes me as a real guy, straight shooter.

Jim



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Fdmorrison
 
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Default Brown & Sharpe surface grinder info

Jim Wilson

wrt old B&S surface grinder

I have only a couple of thoughts, based neither on familiarity nor knowledge of
these machines.

that Okamoto appears to me to be a very nice machine. It certainly
does all that I need, and well, but I would like to get an automatic.


Then for occasional use why isn't a manual or mechanically automatic long feed
the better route to go--especially when there's a known problem with the
hydraulics of the offered machine? Just a moot thought.

How can one get information like year manufactured,
user manual or other documentation, etc., on a machine like this?


Beyond the generic texts, you can occasionally pick up an old B&S product
manual or parts list, hard to say, if there is no further industry support.

I have a "Machinery Serial Number Ref. Book" from 1963 which is hardly
comperhensive, even for the early years. You can abstract from it that that
type of sg was first offered by Brown & Sharpe in the '50s. (The older machines
being #2 and #5.)
It shows sn's for machine #510 (sn range 523-510-213 to last number 663 for the
year 1962; machine # 618 Micromaster (range 523-6181-198 to last number 1349,
again for year 1962); and machine # 1030 Micro Hyd. (range 523-1030-161 and 162
for 1961 and 1962)--so three different machines, all just coming into
production in the late '50s/early '60s.


Speaking of automatics, the guy said that this machine was automatic only
in X. Is this a common configuration?


Yes, or manual, for early grinders.

[snips]
because the B&S dripped a bit
hydraulic fluid from under the table, owing to the design. He said the
hydraulic fluid serves double duty as the way lubricant.

I didn't say anything, but it did raise a couple questions in my mind.
First of all, is it usual for these machines to drip a bit, or does it
sound like something is wrong? And second, is the seller right about the
hydraulic fluid doubling as the way lubricant? That seems a bit strange
to me, but what do I know...


Something is wrong with the hydraulic system--just a seal? Seller doesn't
know. If it was a common problem, that does not make it not a problem.
If it were a used car, we'd both be walking away.

As to way lubrication, there's lots of home brew, but hydraulic oil's for
hydraulics, not for maintaining iron ways.
It sounds like the seller was not the original owner, and (guess) inhereted the
leak. And sounds like his machine maintenance may be suspect.
Frank Morrison

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Jim Wilson
 
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Default Brown & Sharpe surface grinder info

Fdmorrison wrote...
Then for occasional use why isn't a manual or mechanically automatic
long feed the better route to go--especially when there's a known
problem with the hydraulics of the offered machine? Just a moot
thought.


No, it's a reasonable thought, but I'm somewhat limited by a tight budget
and by what is available nearby. I'd prefer an automatic because when I
do need it, which is every couple months, I have 20-30 hours worth of
grinding to do.

It shows sn's for machine #510 (sn range 523-510-213 to last number
663 for the year 1962; machine # 618 Micromaster (range 523-6181-198
to last number 1349, again for year 1962); and machine # 1030 Micro
Hyd. (range 523-1030-161 and 162 for 1961 and 1962)--so three
different machines, all just coming into production in the late
'50s/early '60s.


It doesn't list any 818's? Ok. I received a message off list from another
guy who had a B&S SN book, which didn't list 818's also. I will double-
check the SN tomorrow; maybe I copied it down wrong.

Speaking of automatics, the guy said that this machine was automatic
only in X. Is this a common configuration?


Yes, or manual, for early grinders.


Ok, thanks.

As to way lubrication, there's lots of home brew, but hydraulic oil's for
hydraulics, not for maintaining iron ways.


My first thought, too, but it's original equipment. There's a tag on the
side that says something about hydraulic and way oil, but I didn't pay
enough attention to it. Another thing to follow up on.

It sounds like the seller was not the original owner, and (guess)
inhereted the leak. And sounds like his machine maintenance may
be suspect.


As to the first, good guess. As to the second, dunno. He's certainly not
in to restoring old equipment; his shop is chock full of nice new stuff.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jim


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Jim Wilson
 
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Default Brown & Sharpe surface grinder info

MP Toolman wrote...
I have a Brown & Sharpe 618 Micromaster. Easy to identify because
the column moves in and out (I guess that would be the y axis) instead
of the table.
I have not seen that feature in other brands.


That's a good thing to know. Thanks. I'll check.

Mine is a manual machine but does
have a DRO on the Y and Z axes. I bought mine at an auction for $1500
plus a 10% seller's premium. That included a Walker magnetic chuck
and controller. I thought it was a reasonable deal, but not a steal.


Ok, that's a good data point. OTOH, your market might be better than
mine. I see these things on eBay all the time for way under $1000, but
shipping would kill the deal. Nothing nearby. How much do you think power
X would have added to your cost?

Mine has an oil sump in the base and an automatic pump oiler
activated by cranking the table back and forth. I believe the
versions with automatic motions use the same sump and oil for
both lube and hydraulic table movement.


Interesting! Did I get that right? Rather than hydraulic fluid for way
oil, you are saying it's way oil for hydraulic fluid? If so, it does seem
to make more sense than the other way around...

In the consolidation of US machine tool builders, DeVlieg Bullard
ended up owning the Brown & Sharp grinder products. I do not think
they make the grinders anymore, but I am told parts are available
(though I suspect they are unaffordable.)


Ok, that could be pretty scary, then.

For what it is worth,


At least a word of thanks. Thank you!

Cheers,

Jim
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barry
 
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Default Brown & Sharpe surface grinder info

jim:
i have both the 618 & 510 manuals if you need info.
tnx,
barry
carson city, nv
http://home.att.net/~btuttleman/barrysite.html
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