"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:
"Ken Davey" wrote

Steve;
Assuming we are all morons who cannot possibly have the smarts and
the facts we need to face any threatening situation makes you look
the fool (or just a low-grade troll).

Ken.

Or, one could do as you do and cite opinions rather than facts. And
then put down someone who does give you facts.

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you with facts. I can see your mind
is already pretty made up.

Steve

Facts eh?
Bigger and better water balloons to illustrate the terror of such an
attack?
Totally false information about California's 'rules of engagement'? (see
Gunner's reply down thread)
Bah!


Whatever, Ken. You're right. You win.

Steve

"Gunner" wrote


Define "you must take every action you can before shooting"

Run, warn, throw your money at them and tell them to leave you alone, etc.


If the threat passes the reasonable man test..the actions taken pretty
much are :

1. find cover if possible
2. 2 to the chest, evaluate, 1 to the head.

Gunner


You say such a thing, and then say you carry a gun and were a PO?

The training I had said that once the threat is neutralized, i.e. the perp
is wounded and no longer a thread, you cannot do the "to the head".

But, you had different training. You live in a different state. Your
experiences are different than mine.

All that means is that we are both right.

Steve

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:54:33 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Ken Davey" wrote

Or http://tinyurl.com/b2jyh

It's only water. You can't get hurt by getting hit by water.

Right, Ken?

Steve

How long do I leave it in the freezer again?

Gunner


No longer than absolutely needed to achieve the desired results. We would
not want someone to be able to prove intent.

Steve ;-)

"Gunner" wrote

if its a good shoot on your part..only in Blue areas do you need to
worry.

Gunner


States have laws. Cities have laws. Counties have laws. Lots and lots of
laws. You can be in a blue state, and be in an area where the blue state's
laws are superceded by that municipality's law.

You never know what the law is in the area you are in without doing a lot of
research. Then walk across the street, and you are in a total different
jurisdiction.

Steve

Gunner wrote:
If the threat passes the reasonable
man test..the actions taken
pretty much are :

1. find cover if possible
2. 2 to the chest, evaluate, 1 to the head.

Stev B wrote:
You say such a thing, and then say
you carry a gun and were a PO?

The training I had said that once the threat
is neutralized, i.e. the perp is wounded and
no longer a thread, you cannot do the "to
the head".

Nothing inconsistant there. If I attack you
with something that YOU deem a serious weapon,
you produce your firearm and warn me "Stop or
I will shoot you". If I continue to attack,
you shoot me twice in the chest to neutralize
me as a threat. If I keep coming (am still a
threat) you shoot me in the head (because I'm
drugged or wearing a vest or just plain stupid
enough to attack a person that has just shot me).

Once the defending party produces a firearm
and warns the offender, the situation changes
drastically. Anyone attacking a known armed
person who has announced his intention of
defending himself with his firearm is clearly
not acting reasonable.

This whole business about "you could get sued"
is a moot point. You could get sued for serving
coffee that's too hot. Meanwhile the idiot that
attacked you is dead. Dead is quite final.

As an ex cop who has both received a bullet in
the vest AND who has ended another person's life,
I can assure you that the mental/emotional stress
and life long punishment of shooting someone is far
greater than any criminal or civil or administrative
hearing could match. I was completely cleared of my
action in shooting the guy who was in the process of
pulling the trigger on his victim. But every single day
I carry with me the memory of how I had to make
the split second decision to end the life
of another human.

Throw ANYTHING at me, expect to have a gun pointed
at you. If you run away, story is over. If you stand
still, cops respond and not until that point do I
release you from my sights. Come toward me and you
will be dead. Your grieving widow is welcome to
sue me.


Sgt Lumpy

"Lumpy" wrote in message
...
Gunner wrote:
If the threat passes the reasonable
man test..the actions taken
pretty much are :

1. find cover if possible
2. 2 to the chest, evaluate, 1 to the head.

Stev B wrote:
You say such a thing, and then say
you carry a gun and were a PO?

The training I had said that once the threat
is neutralized, i.e. the perp is wounded and
no longer a thread, you cannot do the "to
the head".

Nothing inconsistant there. If I attack you
with something that YOU deem a serious weapon,
you produce your firearm and warn me "Stop or
I will shoot you". If I continue to attack,
you shoot me twice in the chest to neutralize
me as a threat. If I keep coming (am still a
threat) you shoot me in the head (because I'm
drugged or wearing a vest or just plain stupid
enough to attack a person that has just shot me).

Once the defending party produces a firearm
and warns the offender, the situation changes
drastically. Anyone attacking a known armed
person who has announced his intention of
defending himself with his firearm is clearly
not acting reasonable.

This whole business about "you could get sued"
is a moot point. You could get sued for serving
coffee that's too hot. Meanwhile the idiot that
attacked you is dead. Dead is quite final.

As an ex cop who has both received a bullet in
the vest AND who has ended another person's life,
I can assure you that the mental/emotional stress
and life long punishment of shooting someone is far
greater than any criminal or civil or administrative
hearing could match. I was completely cleared of my
action in shooting the guy who was in the process of
pulling the trigger on his victim. But every single day
I carry with me the memory of how I had to make
the split second decision to end the life
of another human.

Throw ANYTHING at me, expect to have a gun pointed
at you. If you run away, story is over. If you stand
still, cops respond and not until that point do I
release you from my sights. Come toward me and you
will be dead. Your grieving widow is welcome to
sue me.


Sgt Lumpy

Thanks, Lumpy. You have further proven the point that shooting someone is a
far more complicated thing than some would portray it as being.

Steve

"SteveB" wrote in
news:GHqKe.1$ct5.0@fed1read04:

No longer than absolutely needed to achieve the desired results. We
would
not want someone to be able to prove intent.



By the time the fuzz got there even ice-iv would have "thawed" to near-
boiling! grin

"Eregon" wrote in message
...
"SteveB" wrote in
news:GHqKe.1$ct5.0@fed1read04:

No longer than absolutely needed to achieve the desired results. We
would
not want someone to be able to prove intent.



By the time the fuzz got there even ice-iv would have "thawed" to near-
boiling! grin

My, my. The idea for a murder mystery: The case of the disappearing murder
weapon!

It has possibilities. I shall propose it to Mr. Coppola in the morning.

Steve

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:18:58 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote


Define "you must take every action you can before shooting"

Run, warn, throw your money at them and tell them to leave you alone, etc.


If the threat passes the reasonable man test..the actions taken pretty
much are :

1. find cover if possible
2. 2 to the chest, evaluate, 1 to the head.

Gunner


You say such a thing, and then say you carry a gun and were a PO?

Ayup. Notice the word "evaluate" between the three shots? Thats
called Mozambique Drill btw. It works very well if your opponent is
wearing body armor, or is on PCP.

The training I had said that once the threat is neutralized, i.e. the perp
is wounded and no longer a thread, you cannot do the "to the head".

In what galaxy does every wounded man become neutralized? Im living
proof that thats both a naive and bogus viewpoint.

But, you had different training. You live in a different state. Your
experiences are different than mine.

All that means is that we are both right.

Steve


It also means that one of us had been deep in the **** and has
survived, albit with a few less bits and pieces here and there, along
with a few zippers, dimples and whatnot that nature didnt provide.

Shrug.

Gunner


The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:45:21 -0700, "Lumpy"
wrote:

Gunner wrote:
If the threat passes the reasonable
man test..the actions taken
pretty much are :

1. find cover if possible
2. 2 to the chest, evaluate, 1 to the head.

Stev B wrote:
You say such a thing, and then say
you carry a gun and were a PO?

The training I had said that once the threat
is neutralized, i.e. the perp is wounded and
no longer a thread, you cannot do the "to
the head".

Nothing inconsistant there. If I attack you
with something that YOU deem a serious weapon,
you produce your firearm and warn me "Stop or
I will shoot you". If I continue to attack,
you shoot me twice in the chest to neutralize
me as a threat. If I keep coming (am still a
threat) you shoot me in the head (because I'm
drugged or wearing a vest or just plain stupid
enough to attack a person that has just shot me).

Once the defending party produces a firearm
and warns the offender, the situation changes
drastically. Anyone attacking a known armed
person who has announced his intention of
defending himself with his firearm is clearly
not acting reasonable.

This whole business about "you could get sued"
is a moot point. You could get sued for serving
coffee that's too hot. Meanwhile the idiot that
attacked you is dead. Dead is quite final.

As an ex cop who has both received a bullet in
the vest AND who has ended another person's life,
I can assure you that the mental/emotional stress
and life long punishment of shooting someone is far
greater than any criminal or civil or administrative
hearing could match. I was completely cleared of my
action in shooting the guy who was in the process of
pulling the trigger on his victim. But every single day
I carry with me the memory of how I had to make
the split second decision to end the life
of another human.

Throw ANYTHING at me, expect to have a gun pointed
at you. If you run away, story is over. If you stand
still, cops respond and not until that point do I
release you from my sights. Come toward me and you
will be dead. Your grieving widow is welcome to
sue me.


Sgt Lumpy


Damned well said Sir, well said.

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:51:45 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Lumpy" wrote in message
...
Gunner wrote:
If the threat passes the reasonable
man test..the actions taken
pretty much are :

1. find cover if possible
2. 2 to the chest, evaluate, 1 to the head.

Stev B wrote:
You say such a thing, and then say
you carry a gun and were a PO?

The training I had said that once the threat
is neutralized, i.e. the perp is wounded and
no longer a thread, you cannot do the "to
the head".

Nothing inconsistant there. If I attack you
with something that YOU deem a serious weapon,
you produce your firearm and warn me "Stop or
I will shoot you". If I continue to attack,
you shoot me twice in the chest to neutralize
me as a threat. If I keep coming (am still a
threat) you shoot me in the head (because I'm
drugged or wearing a vest or just plain stupid
enough to attack a person that has just shot me).

Once the defending party produces a firearm
and warns the offender, the situation changes
drastically. Anyone attacking a known armed
person who has announced his intention of
defending himself with his firearm is clearly
not acting reasonable.

This whole business about "you could get sued"
is a moot point. You could get sued for serving
coffee that's too hot. Meanwhile the idiot that
attacked you is dead. Dead is quite final.

As an ex cop who has both received a bullet in
the vest AND who has ended another person's life,
I can assure you that the mental/emotional stress
and life long punishment of shooting someone is far
greater than any criminal or civil or administrative
hearing could match. I was completely cleared of my
action in shooting the guy who was in the process of
pulling the trigger on his victim. But every single day
I carry with me the memory of how I had to make
the split second decision to end the life
of another human.

Throw ANYTHING at me, expect to have a gun pointed
at you. If you run away, story is over. If you stand
still, cops respond and not until that point do I
release you from my sights. Come toward me and you
will be dead. Your grieving widow is welcome to
sue me.


Sgt Lumpy

Thanks, Lumpy. You have further proven the point that shooting someone is a
far more complicated thing than some would portray it as being.

Steve

Shooting folks is easy. Dealing with it afterwards is the hard part.
Though..its actually damned hard to get most folks to shoot people.

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:33:12 -0700, michael wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Hows the dog doing btw? Need more? Ive got another litter with the
same parents. 9 of them....damnit. But they are sure cute. I helped
deliver them Monday nite of last week.

Gunner

If you are going to use that phrase then you should use
the full phrase of "**** Off and Die and Rot In A Ditch
and Get Eaten By Maggots and ****ed On and **** On By
a Dysenteric Elephant (but not necessarily in that order)."

Crash Street Kidd

You mean the one gaurding the office door at the moment? The one that is
as a shadow of my movements? Mr. Buckshot is doing very well, thankyou.
Goes everywhere I go unless it is too hot, and I make him stay behind.

Speaking of puppies, when will they be ready for pickup? Mid/late
September? I will have to verify, but have had a couple requests. One
from a nice family with 2 kids, and another from the furniture/cabinet
man next door. Nice guy and does very nice work. He would likely make
the trip down with me and help relieve you of some Stuff.g

email addy is good or post here

buckshot & mike


Less see...6 weeks minimum, Id prefer 8 weeks for good socialization.
Ayup..the latter part of September or early october would be ideal.

I also have a pair of young males that need homes. Both hate cats
though. Which may or may not be a good thing depending on ones point
of view.

And my stacks of stuff are yours to dig through. Please!! bring a
truck and trailer.

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:26:04 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote

if its a good shoot on your part..only in Blue areas do you need to
worry.

Gunner


States have laws. Cities have laws. Counties have laws. Lots and lots of
laws. You can be in a blue state, and be in an area where the blue state's
laws are superceded by that municipality's law.

You never know what the law is in the area you are in without doing a lot of
research. Then walk across the street, and you are in a total different
jurisdiction.

Steve

There are two parts of Law that you should always be aware of.

Statute Law. The actual law thats on the books

Case Law. The actual implimentation of said law in real life. They
are often far different.

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:33:12 -0700, michael wrote:


Gunner wrote:


Hows the dog doing btw? Need more? Ive got another litter with the
same parents. 9 of them....damnit. But they are sure cute. I helped
deliver them Monday nite of last week.

Gunner

If you are going to use that phrase then you should use
the full phrase of "**** Off and Die and Rot In A Ditch
and Get Eaten By Maggots and ****ed On and **** On By
a Dysenteric Elephant (but not necessarily in that order)."

Crash Street Kidd

You mean the one gaurding the office door at the moment? The one that is
as a shadow of my movements? Mr. Buckshot is doing very well, thankyou.
Goes everywhere I go unless it is too hot, and I make him stay behind.

Speaking of puppies, when will they be ready for pickup? Mid/late
September? I will have to verify, but have had a couple requests. One

from a nice family with 2 kids, and another from the furniture/cabinet

man next door. Nice guy and does very nice work. He would likely make
the trip down with me and help relieve you of some Stuff.g

email addy is good or post here

buckshot & mike



Less see...6 weeks minimum, Id prefer 8 weeks for good socialization.
Ayup..the latter part of September or early october would be ideal.

I also have a pair of young males that need homes. Both hate cats
though. Which may or may not be a good thing depending on ones point
of view.

And my stacks of stuff are yours to dig through. Please!! bring a
truck and trailer.

Gunner



I was leaning toward 8 weeks+. 21 September 03 was my first exposure to
Buckshot. Seems like yesterday. I spoke with head of 'family' and he
said they would like 2 puppies. Not particular as to sex of same. This
will be a good home for them. As the time nears, maybe send me a pic or
two to aid selection.

Yes, I will bring truck.g

mike

In article , Ken Davey says...

Let me smack you really good flat on your face with a water balloon
and see if I can injure you. Your nose. Your eyes. Your mouth. Let's do
this little experiment, and talk about it afterward.

Sure - if you let me hit you in the face with a rock after.
Let's see which side of the fence you wake up on.

But wait - the rock was not justified by your viewpoint.

So you you can't use it. You have to just take the water balloons
and not fight back. It's your *own* rule.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ken Davey says...

Let me smack you really good flat on your face with a water balloon
and see if I can injure you. Your nose. Your eyes. Your mouth. Let's
do
this little experiment, and talk about it afterward.

Sure - if you let me hit you in the face with a rock after.
Let's see which side of the fence you wake up on.

But wait - the rock was not justified by your viewpoint.

So you you can't use it. You have to just take the water balloons
and not fight back. It's your *own* rule.

Jim

I knew that, and therefore, knew I was in no danger when I accepted his
challenge. I just was waiting for someone else to pick up on it.

Thanks, Jim.

wink, wink.....

Steve

what kind of puppies?

Oh, I know. Four legs, ears, tails ...........

I mean what breed?

Steve

SteveB wrote:
what kind of puppies?

Oh, I know. Four legs, ears, tails ...........

I mean what breed?

Steve


I'll post a couple pics to the machinist dropbox later today.

Both parents are part Golden Retriever. Also in the mix are Lab, Collie,
and German Shepard. Buckshot has turned out to be an excellent
companion. Good looking, loyal, intelligent, you know how they tend to
reflect their owner.BG

flame suit being donned.

mikey

"michael" wrote in message
...
SteveB wrote:
what kind of puppies?

Oh, I know. Four legs, ears, tails ...........

I mean what breed?

Steve
I'll post a couple pics to the machinist dropbox later today.

Both parents are part Golden Retriever. Also in the mix are Lab, Collie,
and German Shepard. Buckshot has turned out to be an excellent companion.
Good looking, loyal, intelligent, you know how they tend to reflect their
owner.BG

flame suit being donned.

mikey

I thought they took on the good characteristics of their owners ...........

I love that Golden Retriever poster. It is the same picture and has under
each frame:

Golden Retriever happy
Golden Retriever sad
Golden Retriever angry

and so on.

And every picture is of this doofus GR with his tongue hanging out.

I have always thought that if I ever got another dog, I'd try a GR.

Currently, I have a pedigree Pembroke Welsh Corgi, and a Lab/Rott mix.
Other than the color, she is all doofus Lab. The Corgi is typical stubborn
smart obnoxious Corgi.

Steve

SteveB wrote:
"michael" wrote in message
...

SteveB wrote:

what kind of puppies?

Oh, I know. Four legs, ears, tails ...........

I mean what breed?

Steve

I'll post a couple pics to the machinist dropbox later today.

Both parents are part Golden Retriever. Also in the mix are Lab, Collie,
and German Shepard. Buckshot has turned out to be an excellent companion.
Good looking, loyal, intelligent, you know how they tend to reflect their
owner.BG

flame suit being donned.

mikey


I thought they took on the good characteristics of their owners ...........

I love that Golden Retriever poster. It is the same picture and has under
each frame:

Golden Retriever happy
Golden Retriever sad
Golden Retriever angry

and so on.

And every picture is of this doofus GR with his tongue hanging out.

I have always thought that if I ever got another dog, I'd try a GR.

Currently, I have a pedigree Pembroke Welsh Corgi, and a Lab/Rott mix.
Other than the color, she is all doofus Lab. The Corgi is typical stubborn
smart obnoxious Corgi.

Steve


The pics are in the dropbox. I failed to send txt file with jpg files.
Just sent it minutes ago.

m

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:31:30 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:

what kind of puppies?

Oh, I know. Four legs, ears, tails ...........

I mean what breed?

Steve

Dads a big blond golden retriever, momma is a tri colored austrailian
shepherd. The 9 pups have every color and shade in the rainbow, with
a heavy emphasis on cute.


Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:03:17 -0700, michael wrote:

SteveB wrote:
what kind of puppies?

Oh, I know. Four legs, ears, tails ...........

I mean what breed?

Steve


I'll post a couple pics to the machinist dropbox later today.

Both parents are part Golden Retriever. Also in the mix are Lab, Collie,
and German Shepard. Buckshot has turned out to be an excellent
companion. Good looking, loyal, intelligent, you know how they tend to
reflect their owner.BG

flame suit being donned.

mikey

The mother of these pups is IRRC, Buckshots sister/littermate


http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/shopdog.jpg

Gunner


The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

Gunner wrote:

I'll post a couple pics to the machinist dropbox later today.

Both parents are part Golden Retriever. Also in the mix are Lab, Collie,
and German Shepard. Buckshot has turned out to be an excellent
companion. Good looking, loyal, intelligent, you know how they tend to
reflect their owner.BG

flame suit being donned.

mikey


The mother of these pups is IRRC, Buckshots sister/littermate


http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/shopdog.jpg

Gunner


Looks like there will be a home for 2 of them. Have not spoken with the
other party as yet. Wonder if anyone in the vicinity of Los Banos is
interested. I'll check.

m & b