Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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jim
 
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Default Antique metal plating question

Helen Scarth wrote:

Could someone please have a look at this picture -
http://www.treadles.ca/website/plate.jpg and see if they can tell if
it's brass plating over steel/nickel/whatever, or vice versa. One
word of warning though, the picture is 381K in size.

It's a slide plate from an 1870 Singer sewing machine and I'm
intrigued about it because earlier machines had what I'd assumed to be
solid brass plates until this one appeared with the two colours.

I've tried scratching it with a pin, sliding my fingernail across the
two colours and checked it with a 30 power magnifying glass, all with
inconclusive results.

Hopefully someone here will have far more knowledge of metallurgy and
better eyes than I do. Larger scans available on request.

Helen

well looking at it: reminds me of one of my old BRASS cashregisters.. it
is solid brass with a chrome/ or nickle plating that just about all came
off... and someone painted the brass and the parts of nickle that were
still there with a guilt paint in the 1930's or there after.. take one
edge and rub it on a stone(sharpening stone) and see if you get brass on
the stone... i cant think of what chemical you can use to then put on
the scraping on the stone(but it should change colors when you do...
some kind of acid... or take it with you to an aluminun recycling
centerr and they are not busy the guy might check it for you.. look for
the silver stuff on the part and see how it flakes up... with long
fingernail see if you can lift it up.. is it silver paint or metal???
chrome/nickle plating????/
  #3   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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Default Antique metal plating question

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:20:43 -0400, Helen Scarth
pixelated:

You collect old sewing machines? How fascinating. Tell us more. Do you
have a website?


Sorry, I should have included my URL - http://www.treadles.ca
Pre-1900 machines interest me the most. The machine in question is
almost identical to the other Model 12 machines on the Older Singers
page. The joy of collecting them is that, for the most part, they are
still functional and much more reliable than today's machines. My
everyday machine is a 1949 Singer and I wouldn't trade it for any
thousands of dollars machine made today, except to sell the new one to
buy more old ones.


Can you help me date an old machine I found? It's a Universal and
looks a lot like Mom's old Singer electric with its black cast iron
housing. It says "An International Product" but I can't find either
name (uni or int) in your listings. The bobbin/case style and other
clues make me believe it's a rebadged Singer Model 15. The tag between
the bobbin winder post and the stitch length regulator lever is gone
but the two rivets are still there. sigh Also, do you know where
I can find replacement feet for these or is it better to make our
own? I wanted to make/get one for wrapping the binding around the
foam core of the glare guards I make if I can't find a tailor shop
to make the next production run. Another one for making welting for
upholstery might be handy, too. Any tips?


They are still relatively inexpensive too. My Singer 12 treadle was


I found the old Universal machine, probably pre-WWII, at a garage sale
locally. After seeing the $5 price tag, I asked if it worked and
turned it by hand (Someone had kept it oiled!) and found that it did.
I learned how to sew on a machine last year by making my own shop
curtains (garage door window coverings) and hemming the 4' Walmart
curtains for the rest of this new (to me) house.

What the heck, a machine is a machine and I love 'em all, especially
the older ones. (I also have a 1920's Davis and Wells table saw.)

-
Gently-used Firestone tires for sale at discount!
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Bob May
 
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Default Antique metal plating question

Mostly looks like a silver plate over the brass. The clue for this way is
that the numbers are brass with the plate going between them.
Electroplating was probably started about that time and it is a good
possibility that the plating was done on the metal.

--
Bob May
Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less.
Works evevery time it is tried!


  #5   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
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Default Antique metal plating question

In article ,
Helen Scarth wrote:
Don asked:

Are these the covers which slide over the area where the shuttle bobbin goes,
and which the cloth glides over?


Yes, they are but the presser foot plate is silver coloured, not
bronze or brass like the slide plates. You sound like you know a bit
about old sewing machines. (-:


I grew up with my grandparents and there were two Singer treadle
machines in the room in which I spent much of my time. At first, I
played with the treadles while the machines were folded up, and later I
learned to do some sewing on them.

At present I have one sewing machine -- a Singer 221B electric
portable which has the same finish (black, with some gold decorative
paint), but a different bobbin setup.

This is about all that I know about them. :-)

This machine was in a terrible state when I bought it though. It was
too far gone to be a collector's item but will be handy for spare
parts and to study. Everything was covered in grease and rust and
while an overnight soaking in Evaporust cleaned up the presser foot
very well, it didn't affect the slide plates at all. Only Hagerty's
silver polish brought them to a shine. They could possibly be brighter
but would look strange against such a sad looking machine.


Understood.

They are the original plates though because the machine serial number
is stamped on them. The slide plates on my other two later Model 12s
are silver coloured, probably nickel plated, with the Singer logo
stamped on the left plate.


And you said that they are magnetic, so they are steel inside.
Your bronze ones may have also been nickel plated at one time.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
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Don Wilkins
 
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Default Antique metal plating question

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:34:13 -0700, "Bob May"
wrote:

,;Mostly looks like a silver plate over the brass. The clue for this way is
,;that the numbers are brass with the plate going between them.
,;Electroplating was probably started about that time and it is a good
,;possibility that the plating was done on the metal.


Well you certainly have tweaked my curiosity. If the plating perhaps
wasn't done on the metal what are the other possibilities?

IMHO there is no way in hell that this is a silver plate. First of all
it would have shown typical silver tarnish. It does not. Second a
plate would have been applied to show a bright shiny decorative
surface cheaply and lasting. Nickel or chromium would have been
cheaper and longer lasting.

  #7   Report Post  
Don Wilkins
 
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Default Antique metal plating question

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:10:28 -0400, Helen Scarth
wrote:

,;Could someone please have a look at this picture -
,;http://www.treadles.ca/website/plate.jpg and see if they can tell if
,;it's brass plating over steel/nickel/whatever, or vice versa. One
,;word of warning though, the picture is 381K in size.


There is no question in my mind that you have a brass (or bronze)
plate with a bit of ("white") plated metal left. I would assume the
plate is nickel although it could be chromium.

If you can find a friendly analytical chemist they could answer your
question while you wait.
,;
,;It's a slide plate from an 1870 Singer sewing machine and I'm
,;intrigued about it because earlier machines had what I'd assumed to be
,;solid brass plates until this one appeared with the two colours.
,;
,;I've tried scratching it with a pin, sliding my fingernail across the
,;two colours and checked it with a 30 power magnifying glass, all with
,;inconclusive results.
,;
,;Hopefully someone here will have far more knowledge of metallurgy and
,;better eyes than I do. Larger scans available on request.
,;
,;Helen


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DoN. Nichols
 
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Default Antique metal plating question

In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:
On 1 Sep 2003 17:51:50 -0400, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:



At present I have one sewing machine -- a Singer 221B electric
portable which has the same finish (black, with some gold decorative
paint), but a different bobbin setup.


You probably know that the 221B "Featherweight" is highly valued by
quilters.


Actually -- no, I didn't.

I got it when at an antique cluster (a building with lots of
antique dealers under one roof), when looking through a shop which was
specializing in clocks, and I spotted the black carrying case. It
looked to me like a case for a small button accordion, (and I collect
some types of concertinas), so I asked about it. It was the 221B, which
he had bought for his wife (now deceased), and she had never used it.
He had used it for repairing some lodge uniforms from time to time, but
now decided that it was time to sell it -- so I got it. I have no
memory what it cost, but it was not much, back around 1976 or so.

I use it for repairing of clothes, and for stitching new
thumbstraps for concertinas. (And no -- my wife doesn't use it, either. :-)

Do you know where the model number came from? (Does anyone?)
It keeps reminding me of Sherlock Holmes' address -- 221B Baker street. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
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DoN. Nichols
 
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Default Antique metal plating question

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:
In article , Don Foreman says...

On 1 Sep 2003 17:51:50 -0400, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:



At present I have one sewing machine -- a Singer 221B electric
portable which has the same finish (black, with some gold decorative
paint), but a different bobbin setup.


You probably know that the 221B "Featherweight" is highly valued by
quilters.


Oh. Is that the one with the teeny flywheel? It has the
shuttle type bobbin, at least the one ms. Mulligan uses.
Oddly enough, for quilting.


Mine has a "pancake" style bobbin. The bobbin is covered by
something which looks like the metal covers for plates in *really* fancy
restaurants, with a few projections and spring clips added, which rotates
to interleave the two threads.

By "shuttle type" you mean the ones which have the bobbin in a
pointed thing like a rifle bullet which glanced off of something hard,
and is moved back and forth by a two-fingered "hand" under the plates?

Great machine. Just gave one away (found on junk day) to
my neighbor.


I'll agree that mine is a great one -- with what seems to be all
of the accessories (including some duplicates -- e.g. two buttonhole
machines. :-) I do miss the wooden "roll" style boxes, with hinges along
three of the four long edges, and a catch on the forth, with spring
fingers holding down all of the accessories. (This was with the old
treadle style machines my grandparents had.)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. |
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
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DoN. Nichols
 
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Default Antique metal plating question - Answers to sewing machine questions

In article ,
Helen Scarth wrote:
To DoN Nichols -

The B designation on your featherweight means that it was made in
Bonnieres, France. This seems rather unusual and I wonder if perhaps
you've mistaken the B for a K which is more usual. The K means it was
made in Kilbowie, Clydeside, Scotland. E-mail me privately with the
serial number and I'll be able to tell you more accurately.


E-mail sent privately. I did look at the machine, and never
found the 'B' on the model number, so that, I must have picked up from
Sherlock Holmes' address. There was a '-' after the 221, but nothing
more, nor was there space for more, as where it would be was one of the
two rivets holding the plate in place.

Featherweights are popular with some women because they are so light
(13 lbs. for the machine itself) and portable. Purist antique sewing
machine collectors dislike them because they're not people-powered,
ie. a handcrank or a treadle. A few years ago they hit just over $400
on eBay but right now they sell for between $200 and $300 depending on
condition.


Just as well -- I wouldn't want to be tempted to sell it. :-)
And it is in very good condition.

[ ... ]

I do miss the wooden "roll" style boxes, with hinges along
three of the four long edges, and a catch on the forth, with spring
fingers holding down all of the accessories.


Otherwise known as a puzzlebox. This is how Singer packaged
attachments approx. before 1900. They were made of oak and had
dovetailed corners. There are still many for sale on eBay today and
the great majority of the contents will fit on all later Singers.


Nice to know.

Singer used both the bullet shuttle in their VS (vibrating shuttle)
machines and in every other model that has two slide plates; one to
the front and one to the back. The bobbin itself looks like a set of
wheels from a tiny toy car.


Yep -- I remember it well on the old treadle machines. The
bobbin winder had a heart-shaped cam and a follower to guide the thread
into even winds.

All ther domestic Singers have bobbins that look more conventional and
they can all still be bought today. They're the round kind with holes
around the edge.


I wonder whether the holes were to avoid trapped air preventing
a tight wind, or just to save money on metal?

Some models have a built-in bobbin case and a drop-in
bobbin while the Model 16s have the fancy restaurant food dome cover,
otherwise known as a bobbin case.


O.K. So does my Model 221.

If you have any more questions or would like help with any old
machines, don't hesitate to e-mail me privately - e-mail address is
valid but please use a descriptive header/subject line so I don't
delete it as spam.


Oh good -- I did use one which should suffice. I didn't read
the bottom of your article before replying, since it seemed to be aimed
at others.

Thank you all for your help with the slide plate. You've been
terrific and it's a great feeling to find such a friendly, helpful
group.


We're interested in tools. The sewing machines are tools. You
hit us with a very good choice of topic. :-)

Thank you,
DoN.

--
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DoN. Nichols
 
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Default Antique metal plating question

In article ,
Helen Scarth wrote:
I've been busy for the past couple of days working on Canadian antique
sewing machine research for a project for NeedleBar.com. Must get to
bed asap but will answer your sewing machine questions privately if
possible as we seem to be getting very off-topic, unless that's
permitted here.


One of the things which we discuss ad-nauseum is tools, and the
sewing machines are tools, after all -- even machine tools. (Though many
women would not accept that.) So it is a lot more on-topic than a lot
of things which get discussed here. :-) (And, they are fascinating tools
at that.)

And when I get going about sewing machines, there's no shutting me up.
(-:


That sounds as though you fit right in, then. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
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