Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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clare @ snyder.on .ca
 
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Default sheet metal gas engine project

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:14:38 -0400, nanotech1
wrote:

i was looking at some web site about the crosley engine
notice that cylinder and head section was made of brazed sheet
metal but not the crankcase and i was wondering if it is possible to
build an engine about the size of a 8 hp Brigg and straton
out of steel or aluminium sheet metal ( for cylinder block and
crankcase) and tubing( steel tubing for cylinder sleeve cyl,head ports)
yet some parts still be made in billet it would be water cooled and
overhead valve or flathead it would be a nice project with the right
machine tool ( milling , metal lathe ,ect) all sheet metal arc welded
then machined i know that GM EMD diesel locomotive engines are done this
way and some european diesel truck engine like MATRA ( there V12 engine
block is made out of steel sheet metal) does some knows if it as been
done for a project


The BLOCK was made of sheet metal on the early Crosley.
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Ed Huntress
 
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Default sheet metal gas engine project

"nanotech1" wrote in message
...
i was looking at some web site about the crosley engine
notice that cylinder and head section was made of brazed sheet
metal but not the crankcase and i was wondering if it is possible to
build an engine about the size of a 8 hp Brigg and straton
out of steel or aluminium sheet metal ( for cylinder block and
crankcase) and tubing( steel tubing for cylinder sleeve cyl,head ports)
yet some parts still be made in billet it would be water cooled and
overhead valve or flathead it would be a nice project with the right
machine tool ( milling , metal lathe ,ect) all sheet metal arc welded
then machined i know that GM EMD diesel locomotive engines are done this
way and some european diesel truck engine like MATRA ( there V12 engine
block is made out of steel sheet metal) does some knows if it as been
done for a project


'Don't know if it's been done for a project, but there are other
commercial/professional examples. The Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix engines of
the late 1930s were welded. And GM revived the idea of a furnace-brazed
engine, like the Crosley, in the late 1970s. It was never built in
production, but I saw one and all the parts at a SAE show around 1979. The
parts were stamped.

There have been other welded racing engines but I can't remember any
specifics.

Ed Huntress


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Leo Lichtman
 
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Default sheet metal gas engine project


nanotech1 wrote: i was looking at some web site about the crosley engine
notice that cylinder and head section was made of brazed sheet metal (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^
This goes back so many years, that I'm not sure my memory can be trusted,
but I recall hearing that that engine was originally intended to be
"disposable." It was parachuted into combat areas, never intended to have a
long life. It seems to me that was the explanation given for why it was
never a very good automotive engine.

That is not to say that a good engine could not be made using sheet-metal
stampings and precision cylinder liners.


  #4   Report Post  
Don Stauffer
 
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Default sheet metal gas engine project

Around 1900 there were all sorts of projects in magazines on building
copies of small, new-fangled gasoline engines.

In fact, one story I read claimed Henry Ford's engine for his first,
homemade car came from such a project article in a magazine. It used
pipes and pipe fittings for various major engine parts.

BTW, the Crosley engine was designed by a guy named Taylor, and required
very specific processing before and during brazing, and Crosley would
not take time nor money to do it right, and that is why they failed, and
he went to cast blocks.

The Wrights used a lot of weldments and stock in their first few
engines.

nanotech1 wrote:

i was looking at some web site about the crosley engine
notice that cylinder and head section was made of brazed sheet
metal but not the crankcase and i was wondering if it is possible to
build an engine about the size of a 8 hp Brigg and straton
out of steel or aluminium sheet metal ( for cylinder block and
crankcase) and tubing( steel tubing for cylinder sleeve cyl,head ports)
yet some parts still be made in billet it would be water cooled and
overhead valve or flathead it would be a nice project with the right
machine tool ( milling , metal lathe ,ect) all sheet metal arc welded
then machined i know that GM EMD diesel locomotive engines are done this
way and some european diesel truck engine like MATRA ( there V12 engine
block is made out of steel sheet metal) does some knows if it as been
done for a project


--
Don Stauffer in Minnesota

webpage-
http://www.usfamily.net/web/stauffer
  #5   Report Post  
Jeff Wisnia
 
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Default sheet metal gas engine project

clare, @, snyder.on, .ca wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:14:38 -0400, nanotech1
wrote:

i was looking at some web site about the crosley engine
notice that cylinder and head section was made of brazed sheet
metal but not the crankcase and i was wondering if it is possible to
build an engine about the size of a 8 hp Brigg and straton
out of steel or aluminium sheet metal ( for cylinder block and
crankcase) and tubing( steel tubing for cylinder sleeve cyl,head ports)
yet some parts still be made in billet it would be water cooled and
overhead valve or flathead it would be a nice project with the right
machine tool ( milling , metal lathe ,ect) all sheet metal arc welded
then machined i know that GM EMD diesel locomotive engines are done this
way and some european diesel truck engine like MATRA ( there V12 engine
block is made out of steel sheet metal) does some knows if it as been
done for a project


The BLOCK was made of sheet metal on the early Crosley.


I actually OWNED one of those in high school. The engine used the trade name
"Cobra", for 'copper brazed'.

A buddy and I ripped out that engine and shoehorned a Ford "V8-60" into it.

Shortly thereafter I aquired a Willys Aero Ace - The one with the "F head"
engine in it. (Intake valves overhead, exhaust valves in the block.)

Thanks for the memories...

Jeff
--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can keep smiling when things go wrong, you've thought of someone to
place the blame on."




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Jeff Wisnia
 
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Default sheet metal gas engine project

clare, @, snyder.on, .ca wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:14:38 -0400, nanotech1
wrote:

i was looking at some web site about the crosley engine
notice that cylinder and head section was made of brazed sheet
metal but not the crankcase and i was wondering if it is possible to
build an engine about the size of a 8 hp Brigg and straton
out of steel or aluminium sheet metal ( for cylinder block and
crankcase) and tubing( steel tubing for cylinder sleeve cyl,head ports)
yet some parts still be made in billet it would be water cooled and
overhead valve or flathead it would be a nice project with the right
machine tool ( milling , metal lathe ,ect) all sheet metal arc welded
then machined i know that GM EMD diesel locomotive engines are done this
way and some european diesel truck engine like MATRA ( there V12 engine
block is made out of steel sheet metal) does some knows if it as been
done for a project


The BLOCK was made of sheet metal on the early Crosley.


I actually OWNED one of those Crosleys back in high school. The engine had
the trade name "Cobra", for 'copper brazed'.

A buddy and I ripped out that engine and shoehorned a Ford "V8-60" into it.

Shortly thereafter I aquired a Willys Aero Ace - The one with the "F head"
engine in it. (Intake valves overhead, exhaust valves in the block.)

Thanks for the memories...

Jeff


--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can keep smiling when things go wrong, you've thought of someone to
place the blame on."


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nanotech1
 
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Default sheet metal gas engine project

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
...
Around 1900 there were all sorts of projects in magazines on building
copies of small, new-fangled gasoline engines.

In fact, one story I read claimed Henry Ford's engine for his first,
homemade car came from such a project article in a magazine. It used
pipes and pipe fittings for various major engine parts.

BTW, the Crosley engine was designed by a guy named Taylor, and required
very specific processing before and during brazing, and Crosley would
not take time nor money to do it right, and that is why they failed, and
he went to cast blocks.


A basic problem with the Crosley was that the copper brazing (pure copper)
on the steel engine parts created galvanic corrosion. When GM revived the
idea in the late '70s, they pointed out that today's antifreeze solves the
problem.

Ed Huntress

look at that web page

http://www.ggw.org/~cac/Mighty_Tin.html

the famous crosley

by the way i should have point out of thin metal plate not sheet metal

it would be fun to see a small engine cyl block for a 1 cyl 8hp made of
1/8 inch or 3/16 inch plate all welded together

like i said in my subject question diesel engine ( series 567,645,710
from V6 to V20 cyl configuration) in EMD GM locomotive have all there
cyl block are made out of steel plate assembled than welded together

i have a pocket maintenance book on the 567 and there is an illustration
of cyl block where you can really see the welded seams clear

PS: the emd series number = cu/in displacement per cyl
  #8   Report Post  
Bill Janssen
 
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Default sheet metal gas engine project

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

clare, @, snyder.on, .ca wrote:

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:14:38 -0400, nanotech1
wrote:

i was looking at some web site about the crosley engine
notice that cylinder and head section was made of brazed sheet
metal but not the crankcase and i was wondering if it is possible to
build an engine about the size of a 8 hp Brigg and straton
out of steel or aluminium sheet metal ( for cylinder block and
crankcase) and tubing( steel tubing for cylinder sleeve cyl,head ports)
yet some parts still be made in billet it would be water cooled and
overhead valve or flathead it would be a nice project with the right
machine tool ( milling , metal lathe ,ect) all sheet metal arc welded
then machined i know that GM EMD diesel locomotive engines are done this
way and some european diesel truck engine like MATRA ( there V12 engine
block is made out of steel sheet metal) does some knows if it as been
done for a project


The BLOCK was made of sheet metal on the early Crosley.


I actually OWNED one of those in high school. The engine used the trade name
"Cobra", for 'copper brazed'.

A buddy and I ripped out that engine and shoehorned a Ford "V8-60" into it.

Shortly thereafter I aquired a Willys Aero Ace - The one with the "F head"
engine in it. (Intake valves overhead, exhaust valves in the block.)

Thanks for the memories...

Jeff
--
Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can keep smiling when things go wrong, you've thought of someone to
place the blame on."


Another bit of trivia. The Moony aircraft "Mite" had a Crosley engine at first.
Later they put in an opposed four cylinder.

The Mite was mostly wood and looked like a model P51.

Bill K7NOM


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Joe Kultgen
 
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Default sheet metal gas engine project

In article , says...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"Don Stauffer" wrote in message
...
Around 1900 there were all sorts of projects in magazines on building
copies of small, new-fangled gasoline engines.

In fact, one story I read claimed Henry Ford's engine for his first,
homemade car came from such a project article in a magazine. It used
pipes and pipe fittings for various major engine parts.

BTW, the Crosley engine was designed by a guy named Taylor, and required
very specific processing before and during brazing, and Crosley would
not take time nor money to do it right, and that is why they failed, and
he went to cast blocks.


A basic problem with the Crosley was that the copper brazing (pure copper)
on the steel engine parts created galvanic corrosion. When GM revived the
idea in the late '70s, they pointed out that today's antifreeze solves the
problem.

Ed Huntress

look at that web page

http://www.ggw.org/~cac/Mighty_Tin.html

the famous crosley

by the way i should have point out of thin metal plate not sheet metal

it would be fun to see a small engine cyl block for a 1 cyl 8hp made of
1/8 inch or 3/16 inch plate all welded together

like i said in my subject question diesel engine ( series 567,645,710
from V6 to V20 cyl configuration) in EMD GM locomotive have all there
cyl block are made out of steel plate assembled than welded together

i have a pocket maintenance book on the 567 and there is an illustration
of cyl block where you can really see the welded seams clear

PS: the emd series number = cu/in displacement per cyl


IIRC Franklin did this as well on their large diesels, especially the
ones that used both ends of the same cylinder. (Two crankshafts with
pistons compressing towards each other.)

Later,
Joe
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clare @ snyder.on .ca
 
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Default sheet metal gas engine project

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:26:58 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:04:38 GMT, Joe Kultgen
wrote:


IIRC Franklin did this as well on their large diesels, especially the
ones that used both ends of the same cylinder. (Two crankshafts with
pistons compressing towards each other.)


You sure it wasn't Fairbanks-Morse? FM was famous for their OP.
I don't believe Franklin got involved with large diesels- just
air-cooled aircraft engines (except for the water-cooled Tucker).

-Carl (who lives about half a mile from the former Franklin plant).

Major purveyor of the twin crank engine was the Commer in Britain.
FMC also built them - used a lot as mine engines IIRC.


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