Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
SRF
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

Just got a South Bend 10" Heavy and the ways are just slightly worn near the
chuck (you can just barely feel a ridge with your finger nail). I called a
place that rebuilds and to grind the ways and scrape the various parts back
to fit would be $6,000. Yeah, right. Starting to learn hand scraping but
that's a big job plus I still have all the other parts to fix up after the
ways are ground or scraped. From a practical standpoint, I'm just a
beginner so this is probably not worth worrying about for a while.

So, almost a hypothetical question - since the ends of the ways are still
perfect, wouldn't it be possible to use one of those little home plating
systems to add nickel or chrome to the areas that are worn and then scrape
them to the original contours? Seems like it would be a lot less work.
Since this doesn't seem to be the common way to go I'd like to be
enlightened as to why.

Thanks.
Steve.



  #3   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

In article , SRF says...

So, almost a hypothetical question - since the ends of the ways are still
perfect, wouldn't it be possible to use one of those little home plating
systems to add nickel or chrome to the areas that are worn and then scrape
them to the original contours? Seems like it would be a lot less work.
Since this doesn't seem to be the common way to go I'd like to be
enlightened as to why.


This topic comes up frequently. The short answer is, there
are various techniques that are proposed for re-working small
lathe beds. And yes, a 10L really does qualify as a small
machine. The larger ones often have removeable, replaceable
beds or bed ways.

One can machine and re-scrape the existing ways. Or one
can use the 'good' portions on either side of the wear
to guide a grinder that re-works the rest of the bed.

But the inevitable fact is that one can purchase a nearly
new entire lathe, for the cost of having a worn bed re-scraped.
I've never heard of anyone who tried to plate up the worn
areas, but I think that would be even more expensive in
the long run, than simply rescraping the entire bed surface.

Jim

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Tony
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

No, it's more like a stub morse #5. Even that is off slightly, but it's
pretty close.


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"ATP" wrote in message
.net...
Fdmorrison wrote:
"SRF"


Just got a South Bend 10" Heavy and the ways are just slightly worn
near the chuck (you can just barely feel a ridge with your finger
nail).

....

That's typical for an older lathe. Some drop of the ways there is
not going to make a lot of practical difference to what the lathe
will make for you. As part of setting up, try turning the ends of a
piece of stock (say twelve inches long) between centers (using a
faceplate and lathe dog rather than a chuck).


Does the Heavy 10 headstock spindle take a #5 Morse taper?




  #5   Report Post  
Jon Elson
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding



SRF wrote:

Just got a South Bend 10" Heavy and the ways are just slightly worn near the
chuck (you can just barely feel a ridge with your finger nail). I called a
place that rebuilds and to grind the ways and scrape the various parts back
to fit would be $6,000. Yeah, right. Starting to learn hand scraping but
that's a big job plus I still have all the other parts to fix up after the
ways are ground or scraped. From a practical standpoint, I'm just a
beginner so this is probably not worth worrying about for a while.


Well, that may only be a few thousandths. If the wear on the front and
back way are similar, it really makes little difference in the accuracy of
the machine. If only the front way is worn, then the saddle will tilt, and
that can make the diameter error worse. $6000 sounds quite a bit high.
How about just grinding it, and doing the scraping yourself? You'll
learn a lot, and it may not be a big job to scrape it after the grinding
cleans
it up to almost perfect.

One question, though. Is it a hardened bed? That is a real bear to
"scrape",
as I have found out the hard way! I have been working over a Sheldon 15"
lathe with a hard bed, and chromed cross slide. The bed was a total bear
because it is so big, but the cross slide is almost worse, as it is
incredibly
hard!

So, almost a hypothetical question - since the ends of the ways are still
perfect, wouldn't it be possible to use one of those little home plating
systems to add nickel or chrome to the areas that are worn and then scrape
them to the original contours? Seems like it would be a lot less work.
Since this doesn't seem to be the common way to go I'd like to be
enlightened as to why.


I have some real doubts that would work real well. Home plating, you mean
the thing with a couple of AA batteries and a brush? That applies metal by
the nanometer. If you tried to plate up .003" of wear, you might not be
able to complete the repair in this century! You'd probably need to apply
the Nickel or Chrome immersed in a bath, with a current of amperes, for
a week to build up .003" of wear. (This .003" is just a wild guess of the
wear as you describe it.)

Flame spraying of hard Chrome or some similar material could build up
the low spots, then you'd probably build up the entire bed with a thin layer
of the hard facing. Then, it is ground smooth and straight, and generally
not touched up any after that.

But, if grinding the whole bed is going to be needed, you might as well
just do that, only, and be done with it! As far as I know, you can't flame
spray a bedway without having to grind it smooth afterwards.

Jon



  #7   Report Post  
Jack Erbes
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:06:03 GMT, "ATP"
wrote:

Tony wrote:
No, it's more like a stub morse #5. Even that is off slightly, but
it's pretty close.


Is it South Bend's own taper?


I think it is the infamous No. 4-1/2 Morse taper. That was used to
get a taper that did not have excess length hanging out the front of
spindles with a nominal 1-3/8" I.D. Those are the spindles that are
large enough to accept a 5C collet body.

Many lathes (South Bend, Logan, Sheldon, Clausing, etc.) with 1-3/8"
I.D. spindles came with a hardened and ground MT 4-1/2 to MT 3 or MT 2
adapter so that commonly used MT 2 and 3 cutters and tooling MT could
be used in either the headstock or tailstock.

To make a adapter, steal the angle from inside the spindle with a dial
indicator mounted on the compound, turn it between centers from the
preferred metal, then mount it in the spindle and drill and bore or
ream the desired inside taper. Make match marks on the adapter and
spindle nose for indexing it. If you can get it hardened and ground
it would be good but an unhardened one will provide good service for
the average HSM shop.



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  #8   Report Post  
GJRepesh
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

A bed regrind should hold a tolerance of 1/2 thousandth over the length of the
bed. That finishes the bed. Then you need to apply turcite or moglice under the
saddle and tailstock which is then worked (machined and/or scraped) to the
original factory height so components will align such as the lead screw.

Universal Grinding here in Dallas regrinds small lathe beds for less than a
$1,000.

Gary Repesh
  #9   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

In article , GJRepesh says...

A bed regrind should hold a tolerance of 1/2 thousandth over the length of the
bed. That finishes the bed. Then you need to apply turcite or moglice under the
saddle and tailstock which is then worked (machined and/or scraped) to the
original factory height so components will align such as the lead screw.

Universal Grinding here in Dallas regrinds small lathe beds for less than a
$1,000.


But that does not include the cost to re-fit the
saddle and tailstock, right? I suspect that 1K
will net you a re-finished bed, only.

Then one has to consider shipping costs. Unless
the bed can be hand delivered to the shop, it
rapidly becomes more economical to simply purchase
a better, small lathe.

Jim

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  #10   Report Post  
Scott S. Logan
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:56:22 -0400, Jack Erbes
wrote:


I think it is the infamous No. 4-1/2 Morse taper. That was used to
get a taper that did not have excess length hanging out the front of
spindles with a nominal 1-3/8" I.D. Those are the spindles that are
large enough to accept a 5C collet body.

Many lathes (South Bend, Logan, Sheldon, Clausing, etc.) with 1-3/8"
I.D. spindles came with a hardened and ground MT 4-1/2 to MT 3 or MT 2
adapter so that commonly used MT 2 and 3 cutters and tooling MT could
be used in either the headstock or tailstock.


Sorry, wrong on at least two counts.

Neither Logan nor South Bend used a Morse Taper on their lathes with
1-3/8" spindle bore.

Logan and South Bend both used proprietary tapers, the Logan
0.070"/inch for most 11" and all 12" and 14" Lathes.

South Bend used (mostly) 0.602"/foot taper.

I can't say what was used on Sheldon or Clausing.

--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Scott Logan - ssl "at" lathe.com |
| Logan Actuator Co. http://www.lathe.com |
| Harvard, IL |
|++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|
| Parts and Accessories for Logan Lathes and |
| Montgomery Wards Lathes |
| Logan-Lilly Mine Hoist Safety Controllers |
+--------------------------------------------+
"Measure Twice, Cut Once"

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  #11   Report Post  
ATP
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

Scott S. Logan wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:29:22 GMT, "ATP"
wrote:


Does the Heavy 10 headstock spindle take a #5 Morse taper?


No, it is 0.602" per foot taper, 1.629 Gage line diameter.


Thanks.


  #12   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

In article , Gunner says...

There is a grinding place in So.Cal. that will do it for around $600
or so. And while expensive, Turcite or Moglice is not that much. On
the other hand..you can simply remove the same amount from the top of
the apron, and everything will bolt up and operate normally. Which is
what I someday plan on doing with my 13x36 Colchester. The Tailstock
way will not get touched so will not need any shimming.
Seldom will the Tailstock way need to be reground, so thats not an
expense needed.


If I could find a local place that would do a lathe
bed for six hundred, it would start to look attractive.
I would have considered re-working my old, clapped
out 10L, rather than buy a new one.

But the economics still don't quite work:

Cost of original 10L machine: $800
Cost to re-work bed of same: 600

Total, $1400.

I found a nice newer 10L with a flame hard bed, for
$1800. Those economics work better:

Buy new machine for: $1800
Sell older machine: 800

Total, $1000.

And in the end I would have a ww2 vintage machine, with
all the attendant wear in the rest of the bits, with
only a single tumbler gearbox - granted it would have
pristine, soft ways.

By spending four hundred *less* I would up with a
newer machine, double tumber gearbox, and flame hard
ways, also pristine.

This is one reason why small lathe beds rarely get
re-done.

Jim

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  #13   Report Post  
Kevin Hansen
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

On 24 Aug 2003 15:03:56 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

But the economics still don't quite work:

Cost of original 10L machine: $800
Cost to re-work bed of same: 600

Total, $1400.

I found a nice newer 10L with a flame hard bed, for
$1800. Those economics work better:

Buy new machine for: $1800
Sell older machine: 800

Total, $1000.

==============
Jim, I give you an A for good sense, but a C- for your analysis.
Still, it might work to use this technique on the Other Half...

You failed to include the cost of the original machine in your cost of
the new machine. It should be:

Cost of original 10L machine: $800
Cost to re-work bed of same: 600

Total investment, $1400 for a reworked machine.

Newer 10L with a flame hard bed, for
$1800.

Cost of original 10L machine: $800
Buy new machine for: $1800
Sell older machine: 800

Total investment, $1800 for a newer machine.

Which is $400 MORE, not less... ;-)

But, that $400 still probably yields better value than reworking the
old machine when you consider all the other stuff you'd need to do in
addition to simply reworking the bed.

Kevin
Develop Windows(tm) Applications - in COBOL!
http://www.ScreenIO.com
  #14   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

In article , Kevin Hansen says...

You failed to include the cost of the original machine in your cost of
the new machine.


Heh. Funny how that works. Once the machine
is in the basement for a few years, ms. Mulligan
maybe forgets about the cost.

Jim

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  #15   Report Post  
Jack Erbes
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:44:31 -0500, Scott S. Logan
wrote:

snip
Sorry, wrong on at least two counts.

Neither Logan nor South Bend used a Morse Taper on their lathes with
1-3/8" spindle bore.

Logan and South Bend both used proprietary tapers, the Logan
0.070"/inch for most 11" and all 12" and 14" Lathes.

South Bend used (mostly) 0.602"/foot taper.

I can't say what was used on Sheldon or Clausing.


Thanks for correcting me. Maybe it was because all those adapters
looked a lot alike?

I never had a South Bend or Logan but I know the Standard-Modern and
Sheldon that I owned both had them.



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  #16   Report Post  
Eastburn
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding

Sheldon used a MT-4 on my 11x44 Lathe.
I have the MT-4 to MT-2 converter - useful for spindle work with spur
or with center, face plate and a dog.

Martin
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  #17   Report Post  
Mike Henry
 
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Default Lathe way rebuilding


"Scott S. Logan" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:56:22 -0400, Jack Erbes
wrote:


I think it is the infamous No. 4-1/2 Morse taper. That was used to
get a taper that did not have excess length hanging out the front of
spindles with a nominal 1-3/8" I.D. Those are the spindles that are
large enough to accept a 5C collet body.

Many lathes (South Bend, Logan, Sheldon, Clausing, etc.) with 1-3/8"
I.D. spindles came with a hardened and ground MT 4-1/2 to MT 3 or MT 2
adapter so that commonly used MT 2 and 3 cutters and tooling MT could
be used in either the headstock or tailstock.


Sorry, wrong on at least two counts.

Neither Logan nor South Bend used a Morse Taper on their lathes with
1-3/8" spindle bore.

Logan and South Bend both used proprietary tapers, the Logan
0.070"/inch for most 11" and all 12" and 14" Lathes.

South Bend used (mostly) 0.602"/foot taper.

I can't say what was used on Sheldon or Clausing.


Can't speak to other Clausing models but the Clausing 5900 series lathes
have 4-1/2 MT tapers inside the spindles.


--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Scott Logan - ssl "at" lathe.com |
| Logan Actuator Co. http://www.lathe.com |
| Harvard, IL |
|++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|
| Parts and Accessories for Logan Lathes and |
| Montgomery Wards Lathes |
| Logan-Lilly Mine Hoist Safety Controllers |
+--------------------------------------------+
"Measure Twice, Cut Once"

RCM FAQ - http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal
Metal Web News - http://www.metalwebnews.com/
Help squash SPAM: http://www.cauce.org/



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