Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
Peter Reilley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

I had my wheels balanced and for the third time the lug nuts
came loose a few days later. I watched them use a torque
wrench to tighten them. I have alloy wheels. When I put the
nuts on I stand on the lug wrench and bounce a little. They
don't come loose when I do that.

Anyway, I was wondering if I should grease the threads. I don't
grease them now. The theory being that the increased friction
would keep them from loosening. An opposing theory is
that with greased threads the same torque would put a higher
tension on the stud. This would reduce any slight movement
thereby reducing the likelihood of the nuts coming loose.

So which is better; grease or no grease?

Pete.


  #2   Report Post  
Bruce C.
 
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Default Grease on lug nuts???

I don't use grease, but I do use anti-seaze compound (both on the threads
and on the taper between the wheel and the nut). There are at least two
kinds of anti-seaze (copper or aluminum based), I'm only familiar with the
al type.

Bruce


"Peter Reilley" wrote in message
...
I had my wheels balanced and for the third time the lug nuts
came loose a few days later. I watched them use a torque
wrench to tighten them. I have alloy wheels. When I put the
nuts on I stand on the lug wrench and bounce a little. They
don't come loose when I do that.

Anyway, I was wondering if I should grease the threads. I don't
grease them now. The theory being that the increased friction
would keep them from loosening. An opposing theory is
that with greased threads the same torque would put a higher
tension on the stud. This would reduce any slight movement
thereby reducing the likelihood of the nuts coming loose.

So which is better; grease or no grease?

Pete.




  #3   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

"Bruce C." wrote in message
news:QpX0b.212387$Ho3.28144@sccrnsc03...
I don't use grease, but I do use anti-seaze compound (both on the threads
and on the taper between the wheel and the nut). There are at least two
kinds of anti-seaze (copper or aluminum based), I'm only familiar with the
al type.


And some of us who are gray on top have our old, preciously guarded,
probably illegal tins of lead-based anti-seize, which, in many applications,
is the best anyone has ever come up with.

I don't waste it on wheel studs. I'm afraid I won't be able to buy it again.

Ed Huntress


  #4   Report Post  
RellikJM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

Isn't most new grey colored stuff nickel?

--
RellikJM
RellikJM AT Yahoo DOT Com
Don't forget about my "FREE" EPROM programming !
Advice is only worth what you paid for it!

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.net...
"Bruce C." wrote in message
news:QpX0b.212387$Ho3.28144@sccrnsc03...
I don't use grease, but I do use anti-seaze compound (both on the

threads
and on the taper between the wheel and the nut). There are at least two
kinds of anti-seaze (copper or aluminum based), I'm only familiar with

the
al type.


And some of us who are gray on top have our old, preciously guarded,
probably illegal tins of lead-based anti-seize, which, in many

applications,
is the best anyone has ever come up with.

I don't waste it on wheel studs. I'm afraid I won't be able to buy it

again.

Ed Huntress




  #5   Report Post  
Craig
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

"Peter Reilley" wrote in message ...
I had my wheels balanced and for the third time the lug nuts
came loose a few days later. I watched them use a torque
wrench to tighten them. I have alloy wheels. When I put the
nuts on I stand on the lug wrench and bounce a little. They
don't come loose when I do that.



No grease and correct torque value. Also make sure that the cone
angle, if there is one, on the nut matches the angle on the wheel.
All you are doing when you jump on the lug wrench is overtorqueing the
nuts and damaging the wheels and over stressing the studs. In all the
vehicles we've owned in our family over the last 35 years, we've never
had a lug nut work loose when properly installed.

Craig C.



  #6   Report Post  
Loren Coe
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

In article , Craig wrote:
"Peter Reilley" wrote in message ...
I had my wheels balanced and for the third time the lug nuts
came loose a few days later. I watched them use a torque
wrench to tighten them. I have alloy wheels. When I put the
nuts on I stand on the lug wrench and bounce a little. They
don't come loose when I do that.

No grease and correct torque value. Also make sure that the cone
angle, if there is one, on the nut matches the angle on the wheel.
All you are doing when you jump on the lug wrench is overtorqueing the
nuts and damaging the wheels and over stressing the studs. In all the
vehicles we've owned in our family over the last 35 years, we've never
had a lug nut work loose when properly installed. Craig C.


what Craig said, sameo w/me, _plus_ i used to loosen the nuts
1st opportunity after getting any work done at a tire shop. this
was prompted by getting stranded w/a flat in the NM desert because
i could not get the friken lug nuts loose with the factory wrench.

from that day on, i made sure that never happened again, re-torqing
them with the factory wrench at home. i have _never_ lost a lug nut
in over 50yrs of diys backyard mechanikin. i have had loose nuts
because i failed to apply the final torque. --Loren

  #7   Report Post  
David A. Webb
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:43:18 -0400, "Peter Reilley"
wrote:

So which is better; grease or no grease?

Pete.


I have used the aluminum based anti-sieze, AND regular old axle
grease. Had no problems with either.

My reason for using the lube was because without it, the lug nuts
would stick and I had a terrible time getting them off. (until I
bought an air impact wrench)

A lot of people argue that the grease will allow the nut to back off
easier. But like you said, the lubrication will allow the proper
torque in the first place. The stretch of the stud will keep the
tension on the nut, and keep it from getting loose if it is torqued
correctly.

I figure if race engine builders lubricate rod bolts, head bolts, and
main bolts before installing them, they must know what they are doing.
I've never heard of those fasteners coming loose.

You shouldn't need more than maybe 70 foot pounds on your lug nuts.
Keep in mind that it is approximately equivalent to you leaning on a
standard size 3/8 ratchet wrench. (maybe a 1/2 inch ratchet if you
are a lightweight)

Over torquing can quite literally damage your brake rotor. Do you
feel a pulsing in the steering wheel when you apply the brakes?

Anyway, if your wheels are aluminum like you said, are they new? If
they didn't come with the car, you might be using the wrong style lug
nuts with them.

And finally, lug nuts typically only come loose on the right side of
the car. The rotation of the wheel will tend to tighten the nuts on
the left side, and loosen on the right. Older MOPAR vehicles had left
hand threaded lugs on the left side of the car for that reason. IF
the nuts are only coming loose on one side, my guess is they simply
weren't torqued properly for one reason or another.

I would recommend applying a dab of Permatex anti-sieze (aluminum
kind) that you can get next to all of the other Permatex sealers and
stuff at Autozone or other auto-parts store.

Dave



  #8   Report Post  
Bray Haven
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

I use "Never-seez" on them. You don't need quite as much torque as dry. Ever
try to change a tire after somebody leaned on the air wrench putting it on (?
Especially needed for boat trailer wheels in FL.
Greg Sefton
  #9   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

And some of us who are gray on top have our old, preciously guarded,
probably illegal tins of lead-based anti-seize, which, in many applications,
is the best anyone has ever come up with.


The nickle-based stuff is pretty good.

Even the MoS2 kind works well.

Jim

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  #10   Report Post  
Dan Thomas
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

"RellikJM" GO@SPAM SOMEONE ELSE.COM wrote in message .net...
Isn't most new grey colored stuff nickel?

--
RellikJM
RellikJM AT Yahoo DOT Com
Don't forget about my "FREE" EPROM programming !
Advice is only worth what you paid for it!


Zinc, I think.

Dan

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.net...
"Bruce C." wrote in message
news:QpX0b.212387$Ho3.28144@sccrnsc03...
I don't use grease, but I do use anti-seaze compound (both on the

threads
and on the taper between the wheel and the nut). There are at least two
kinds of anti-seaze (copper or aluminum based), I'm only familiar with

the
al type.


And some of us who are gray on top have our old, preciously guarded,
probably illegal tins of lead-based anti-seize, which, in many

applications,
is the best anyone has ever come up with.

I don't waste it on wheel studs. I'm afraid I won't be able to buy it

again.

Ed Huntress




  #11   Report Post  
Carl Byrns
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:43:18 -0400, "Peter Reilley"
wrote:


So which is better; grease or no grease?


No grease, no lube, nothing.
Grease will hold dirt which will grind down the threads off the studs
when the nuts are removed.
Torque the nuts to spec, no more, no less.

-Carl

  #12   Report Post  
David L Peterson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:43:18 -0400, "Peter Reilley"
wrote:

I had my wheels balanced and for the third time the lug nuts
came loose a few days later. I watched them use a torque
wrench to tighten them. I have alloy wheels. When I put the
nuts on I stand on the lug wrench and bounce a little. They
don't come loose when I do that.

Anyway, I was wondering if I should grease the threads. I don't
grease them now. The theory being that the increased friction
would keep them from loosening. An opposing theory is
that with greased threads the same torque would put a higher
tension on the stud. This would reduce any slight movement
thereby reducing the likelihood of the nuts coming loose.

So which is better; grease or no grease?

Pete.


I always oil the studs, first I wire brsuh them. I live on a gravel
road and they can get pretty grimy. the oil is a must, I've had too
many times I've had to twist the nut off squeeling all the way. I
don't usually oil the cone part of the nut. Once you've had nuts work
loose it usually wrecks the shape of the cone on the nut and the hole
on the rim and will not seat properly anymore. Fro a cheapo fix buy
new nuts and see if they hold. You may have wrecked your rims.

You are probably overtorquing them when you bounce on them (I've been
accused of leaning on my breaker bar a bit too hard too, but I don't
stand on it. Often the factory wrench is crap and will break or bend
even on clean properly torqued nuts. My advice is to find a good old
cross shaped wrench and keep it in the trunk (watch out, the ones they
sell new are often chinese crap you can twist into a spiral without
budging the nut. The multiple sizes are handy if you are pulling a
trailer or helping a stranded motorist with their crappy factory
wrench.

It's hard to say how tight you were gettign them bouncing on them,
some lug wrench handles stick out at enough of an angle that a good
component of the force you were putting on the wrench translated into
a moment trying to simply bend the nut/stud down. I've seen people
jump on them and been able to turn them tighter by hand with a proper
wrench . Use the X shaped lug wrench, you can use bothe hands one
pushing up, the other down. No goofy side loading of the nut and you
will have a good feel for how tight you actuall yave them. These are
also pretty nice for spinning the nuts off after you break them loose.
and sure beat resettign the wrench every haft turn for stubburn ones.

Air wrenches can get things too tight or too loose, always check them
after somebody else put them on. and check all the nuts, sometimes
they really hammer home two and just spin the rest on.

Little trick, in a pinch on the side of the road you can pull your
dipstick for a little oil for those stubborn nuts.

Dave
  #13   Report Post  
Ted Edwards
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

RellikJM wrote:

Isn't most new grey colored stuff nickel?


No but there is a Nickel based one that is grey and is *very* good even
at extreme temperatures.

Ted


  #14   Report Post  
Ted Edwards
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

Ed Huntress wrote:

And some of us who are gray on top have our old, preciously guarded,
probably illegal tins of lead-based anti-seize, which, in many applications,
is the best anyone has ever come up with.


How awful!! Some little kid could get lead poisoning by sucking on your
wheel nuts. ;-)

Ted

  #15   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

And some of us who are gray on top have our old, preciously guarded,
probably illegal tins of lead-based anti-seize, which, in many

applications,
is the best anyone has ever come up with.


How awful!! Some little kid could get lead poisoning by sucking on your
wheel nuts. ;-)

Ted


Pervert. g

Ed Huntress




  #17   Report Post  
George E. Cawthon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

Are you talking about white lead?

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Bruce C." wrote in message
news:QpX0b.212387$Ho3.28144@sccrnsc03...
I don't use grease, but I do use anti-seaze compound (both on the threads
and on the taper between the wheel and the nut). There are at least two
kinds of anti-seaze (copper or aluminum based), I'm only familiar with the
al type.


And some of us who are gray on top have our old, preciously guarded,
probably illegal tins of lead-based anti-seize, which, in many applications,
is the best anyone has ever come up with.

I don't waste it on wheel studs. I'm afraid I won't be able to buy it again.

Ed Huntress

  #18   Report Post  
George E. Cawthon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???



"David A. Webb" wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:43:18 -0400, "Peter Reilley"
wrote:

So which is better; grease or no grease?

Pete.


I have used the aluminum based anti-sieze, AND regular old axle
grease. Had no problems with either.

My reason for using the lube was because without it, the lug nuts
would stick and I had a terrible time getting them off. (until I
bought an air impact wrench)

A lot of people argue that the grease will allow the nut to back off
easier. But like you said, the lubrication will allow the proper
torque in the first place. The stretch of the stud will keep the
tension on the nut, and keep it from getting loose if it is torqued
correctly.

I figure if race engine builders lubricate rod bolts, head bolts, and
main bolts before installing them, they must know what they are doing.
I've never heard of those fasteners coming loose.

You shouldn't need more than maybe 70 foot pounds on your lug nuts.
Keep in mind that it is approximately equivalent to you leaning on a
standard size 3/8 ratchet wrench. (maybe a 1/2 inch ratchet if you
are a lightweight)

Over torquing can quite literally damage your brake rotor. Do you
feel a pulsing in the steering wheel when you apply the brakes?

Anyway, if your wheels are aluminum like you said, are they new? If
they didn't come with the car, you might be using the wrong style lug
nuts with them.

And finally, lug nuts typically only come loose on the right side of
the car. The rotation of the wheel will tend to tighten the nuts on
the left side, and loosen on the right. Older MOPAR vehicles had left
hand threaded lugs on the left side of the car for that reason. IF
the nuts are only coming loose on one side, my guess is they simply
weren't torqued properly for one reason or another.

I would recommend applying a dab of Permatex anti-sieze (aluminum
kind) that you can get next to all of the other Permatex sealers and
stuff at Autozone or other auto-parts store.

Dave


I agree with everything you said. And, I have never lost a
lug nut (or bolt) and have never had a loose nut (except
behind the wheel). And I have enough sense to not just honk
down on the wrench till I can't tighten any more.
I started using antisieze for the same reason (lug nut
sticking to the wheel), but I usually spray with WD 40 to
clean the threads if dirty or rusty. Funny thing, I don't
usually get lug nuts sticking to a wheel if I do the
tightening even without using an antisieze compound. You
think, maybe those wheel changers don't know about torque?

If you use regular oil or grease, you need to check one of
the sites on the internet to see what the torque should be.
Wet torque is usually somewhere around 70 percent of dry
torque, so it is easy to over torque the nut if you use
lubrication.
  #19   Report Post  
Dave Martindale
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

"George E. Cawthon" writes:

You shouldn't need more than maybe 70 foot pounds on your lug nuts.
Keep in mind that it is approximately equivalent to you leaning on a
standard size 3/8 ratchet wrench. (maybe a 1/2 inch ratchet if you
are a lightweight)


Honda specifies 80 foot-pounds for the wheel nuts on my 92 Civic.
So 70 may be a bit low, at least for 4-nut wheels.

I always use a torque wrench when tightening the nuts (unless I'm fixing
a flat when away from home). And I retorque the nuts after the car
comes home from being serviced, if the wheels were off, on the
assumption that the garage didn't use a torque wrench.

I have never had a wheel nut or bolt come loose, but I *did* have some
problems with disc rotor warping on a VW Rabbit. That was when I began
the practice of retorquing the wheel bolts after service. I haven't had
warped rotor problems since then, either on the Rabbit or the Civic that
replaced it.

Dave
  #20   Report Post  
CROQ
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???


Peter Reilley wrote in message
...
I had my wheels balanced and for the third time the lug nuts
came loose a few days later. I watched them use a torque
wrench to tighten them. I have alloy wheels. When I put the
nuts on I stand on the lug wrench and bounce a little. They
don't come loose when I do that.

Anyway, I was wondering if I should grease the threads. I don't
grease them now. The theory being that the increased friction
would keep them from loosening. An opposing theory is
that with greased threads the same torque would put a higher
tension on the stud. This would reduce any slight movement
thereby reducing the likelihood of the nuts coming loose.

So which is better; grease or no grease?

Pete.



I do not remember if it was in a Toyota manual or info that came with a set
of aluminum American Racing wheels, but re-torquing the lug nuts 100 miles
after wheel R&R was suggested for aluminum wheels. Something about possible
loosening due to expansion/contraction of the aluminum.

FWIW
C




  #21   Report Post  
David A. Webb
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:52:39 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

If you use regular oil or grease, you need to check one of
the sites on the internet to see what the torque should be.
Wet torque is usually somewhere around 70 percent of dry
torque, so it is easy to over torque the nut if you use
lubrication.


When I was building my small block 383, I followed ARP's web site for
adjusting the torque for their lube. You are right, it is about 70%
of dry torque. But with a balanced and blueprinted racing engine, I
didn't want to risk doing anything wrong.

Although wheel lugs should require more attention due to safety
reasons, they aren't exposed to near the stresses that internal engine
fasteners are. Wheel studs can take a hell of a lot more torque than
what is specified, so making adjustments for lubrication is totally
unnecessary in my opinion.

I have read that as long as lug nuts are all torqued in the proper
sequence, AND they are torqued a little at a time (all installed
finger tight first, then torqued to 25%, then 75%, then 100% for
example) instead full torque all at once, you can be well above the
recommended torque value without any real risk of damage to the wheel
or rotor/drum.

It is when you get the idiots at the tire service shop that uses an
impact wrench set for 200 foot pounds that puts the first nut on at
that torque, Then puts the next nut on when the wheel never got
perfectly centered on the hub first. It can cause non-uniform
stresses in the hub AND the wheel.

I had tires balanced at one shop, and I instructed them to hand torque
the lug nuts. I watched as the guy put all the nuts on, cinched them
down with the air impact wrench, and then put the final torque on them
with a torque wrench. He was satisfied. I wasn't. Only about half
of the nuts even moved with the torque wrench. It just proved to me
that half of the nuts were over torqued. Needless to say, I used my
4-way lug wrench and loosened/retightened all of the nuts in their
parking lot.

Dave





  #22   Report Post  
clare @ snyder.on .ca
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:00:23 GMT, "CROQ" wrote:


I do not remember if it was in a Toyota manual or info that came with a set
of aluminum American Racing wheels, but re-torquing the lug nuts 100 miles
after wheel R&R was suggested for aluminum wheels. Something about possible
loosening due to expansion/contraction of the aluminum.

FWIW
C

Not every hundred miles, but after 100 miles was standard with Toyota
Alloy wheels in the seventies and eighties
  #23   Report Post  
George E. Cawthon
 
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Default Grease on lug nuts???


"David A. Webb" wrote:

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:52:39 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

If you use regular oil or grease, you need to check one of
the sites on the internet to see what the torque should be.
Wet torque is usually somewhere around 70 percent of dry
torque, so it is easy to over torque the nut if you use
lubrication.


When I was building my small block 383, I followed ARP's web site for
adjusting the torque for their lube. You are right, it is about 70%
of dry torque. But with a balanced and blueprinted racing engine, I
didn't want to risk doing anything wrong.

Although wheel lugs should require more attention due to safety
reasons, they aren't exposed to near the stresses that internal engine
fasteners are. Wheel studs can take a hell of a lot more torque than
what is specified, so making adjustments for lubrication is totally
unnecessary in my opinion.

I have read that as long as lug nuts are all torqued in the proper
sequence, AND they are torqued a little at a time (all installed
finger tight first, then torqued to 25%, then 75%, then 100% for
example) instead full torque all at once, you can be well above the
recommended torque value without any real risk of damage to the wheel
or rotor/drum.

It is when you get the idiots at the tire service shop that uses an
impact wrench set for 200 foot pounds that puts the first nut on at
that torque, Then puts the next nut on when the wheel never got
perfectly centered on the hub first. It can cause non-uniform
stresses in the hub AND the wheel.

I had tires balanced at one shop, and I instructed them to hand torque
the lug nuts. I watched as the guy put all the nuts on, cinched them
down with the air impact wrench, and then put the final torque on them
with a torque wrench. He was satisfied. I wasn't. Only about half
of the nuts even moved with the torque wrench. It just proved to me
that half of the nuts were over torqued. Needless to say, I used my
4-way lug wrench and loosened/retightened all of the nuts in their
parking lot.

Dave


I suspect you are correct about higher torque for wheel nuts
on most wheels and vehicles. Only until the last few years
did I start using a torque wrench and often didn't have a
clue what the torque was supposed to be. And , when I did
know he torque requirement, I could just guess this is 2
feet long so 100 ft-pounds means I have to pull it about 50
pounds worth. As long as the nuts don't come undone, I
can't imagine why less torque would hurt. OTOH, I've seen
people put at least a hundred foot pounds on a little 3/8
nut and wondered how often they snap off.

I was surprised at the last set of studded tire that I
bought at Costco. The guy changing the tires torqued all
the nuts up a ways and then changed the torque setting (it
was obvious he increased the torque0 and then torqued each
nut again (some at least did move a bit. He sat around for
a while and I couldn't figure out what the delay was, but
finally the supervisor came over, with another wrench, (the
first worker was holding his) and tested the torque of each
nut. I've never seen anything like this before, but it's
appears standard at this shop for the supervisor to check
the grunts work with another torque wrench.
  #24   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Are you talking about white lead?


Nope, but I have a film can full of that, too, for use on the tailstock
dead-center on my lathe. This is finely-ground lead metal. It was once the
common filler for anti-seize compounds used at normal temperatures. I know a
couple of old mechanics who have squirelled away a tin or two of it, too.

Ed Huntress



  #25   Report Post  
Jack Erbes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:01:59 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Are you talking about white lead?


Nope, but I have a film can full of that, too, for use on the tailstock
dead-center on my lathe. This is finely-ground lead metal. It was once the
common filler for anti-seize compounds used at normal temperatures. I know a
couple of old mechanics who have squirelled away a tin or two of it, too.

Ed Huntress


Actually white lead is a carbonate, not finely ground metal. As used
in machine shops, it is a slurry of oil or light grease and white
lead. More info from ASTM he

http://tinyurl.com/l0lh

I don't say this to start an argument, I am uncomfortable with the
thought of someone thinking you can grinding up lead to make a
lubricant.

The easiest place to find white lead now is at art supply shops. That
will probably be pre-mixed with a drier but if you mix some oil in you
can probably get the lubricating properties needed for dead centers
and the like.

If you have a older South Bend with the little storage hole and dauber
on the tailstock, that was for storing white lead handy to the point
of usage. If you only have a mysterious hole, you have lost your
dauber.

Cheers.


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http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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  #26   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:01:59 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Are you talking about white lead?


Nope, but I have a film can full of that, too, for use on the tailstock
dead-center on my lathe. This is finely-ground lead metal. It was once

the
common filler for anti-seize compounds used at normal temperatures. I

know a
couple of old mechanics who have squirelled away a tin or two of it, too.

Ed Huntress


Actually white lead is a carbonate, not finely ground metal.


Poor sentence construction on my part. I meant that the finely-ground lead
is used in the anti-seize, not in the white lead, which, as you say, is a
lead compound.

I just pulled out the tin, the label of which is still barely readable. It's
"NAPA 765-1862 Anti-Seize Compound. Warning -- May be harmful if swallowed.
Contains metallic lead. Keep out of reach of children." I bought it around
1965.

It's heavy and very dark gray, as one would expect of lead fines. It would
spread pretty nicely on snack crackers, I think, but I was never enough of a
motorhead to try it.


I don't say this to start an argument, I am uncomfortable with the
thought of someone thinking you can grinding up lead to make a
lubricant.


Sorry, sorry. I'll watch my antecedents more carefully in the future. g


If you have a older South Bend with the little storage hole and dauber
on the tailstock, that was for storing white lead handy to the point
of usage. If you only have a mysterious hole, you have lost your
dauber.


I still have the precious dauber. And I use only dead centers.

Ed Huntress


  #27   Report Post  
Dan Thomas
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

David A. Webb wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:43:18 -0400, "Peter Reilley"
wrote:

So which is better; grease or no grease?

Pete.


I have used the aluminum based anti-sieze, AND regular old axle
grease. Had no problems with either.

My reason for using the lube was because without it, the lug nuts
would stick and I had a terrible time getting them off. (until I
bought an air impact wrench)

A lot of people argue that the grease will allow the nut to back off
easier. But like you said, the lubrication will allow the proper
torque in the first place. The stretch of the stud will keep the
tension on the nut, and keep it from getting loose if it is torqued
correctly.


This is important. Stud stretch is responsible for holding lug nuts
tight, just as con rod bolt nuts often have no locking device, just
the bolt stretch to keep friction on the nut face and thread.
Overtightening the nuts will strain (overstretch) the stud, making it
inelastic and maybe cracking it, and causing either stud failure the
next time the driver corners hard, or the nut will loosen.
Lubrication, on the other hand, can reduce nut friction so much that
straining the stud becomes really easy.

And finally, lug nuts typically only come loose on the right side of
the car. The rotation of the wheel will tend to tighten the nuts on
the left side, and loosen on the right. Older MOPAR vehicles had left
hand threaded lugs on the left side of the car for that reason. IF
the nuts are only coming loose on one side, my guess is they simply
weren't torqued properly for one reason or another.


No, they came loose on the LEFT side, which is why Mopars had
the left-hand thread on the left side. Heavy trucks still use LH
threads on the left side. You have to understand the rotational forces
here; the pressure on the nut's cone moves clockwise on a
counterclockwise rotating wheel, and this tends to create a
counterclockwise rotation on the nut. You can picture it by making a
loop with your right thumb and forefinger, and sticking your left
thumb into the loop. Clockwise contact movement will rotate the left
thumb counterclockwise.

Dan (nine years a wheel-sales specialist '71-'80)
  #28   Report Post  
ATP
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

Dan Thomas wrote:
David A. Webb wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:43:18 -0400, "Peter Reilley"
wrote:

So which is better; grease or no grease?

Pete.


I have used the aluminum based anti-sieze, AND regular old axle
grease. Had no problems with either.

My reason for using the lube was because without it, the lug nuts
would stick and I had a terrible time getting them off. (until I
bought an air impact wrench)

A lot of people argue that the grease will allow the nut to back off
easier. But like you said, the lubrication will allow the proper
torque in the first place. The stretch of the stud will keep the
tension on the nut, and keep it from getting loose if it is torqued
correctly.


This is important. Stud stretch is responsible for holding lug nuts
tight, just as con rod bolt nuts often have no locking device, just
the bolt stretch to keep friction on the nut face and thread.
Overtightening the nuts will strain (overstretch) the stud, making it
inelastic and maybe cracking it, and causing either stud failure the
next time the driver corners hard, or the nut will loosen.
Lubrication, on the other hand, can reduce nut friction so much that
straining the stud becomes really easy.

And finally, lug nuts typically only come loose on the right side of
the car. The rotation of the wheel will tend to tighten the nuts on
the left side, and loosen on the right. Older MOPAR vehicles had
left hand threaded lugs on the left side of the car for that reason.
IF the nuts are only coming loose on one side, my guess is they
simply weren't torqued properly for one reason or another.


No, they came loose on the LEFT side, which is why Mopars had
the left-hand thread on the left side. Heavy trucks still use LH
threads on the left side. You have to understand the rotational forces
here; the pressure on the nut's cone moves clockwise on a
counterclockwise rotating wheel, and this tends to create a
counterclockwise rotation on the nut. You can picture it by making a
loop with your right thumb and forefinger, and sticking your left
thumb into the loop. Clockwise contact movement will rotate the left
thumb counterclockwise.

Dan (nine years a wheel-sales specialist '71-'80)


You also have to have clean threads to get a proper torque reading. It takes
a lot of torque to overcome heavy rust and that does not count toward the
required torque.


  #29   Report Post  
Jack Erbes
 
Posts: n/a
Default 've never actually

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:20:11 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

Poor sentence construction on my part. I meant that the finely-ground lead
is used in the anti-seize, not in the white lead, which, as you say, is a
lead compound.

I just pulled out the tin, the label of which is still barely readable. It's
"NAPA 765-1862 Anti-Seize Compound. Warning -- May be harmful if swallowed.
Contains metallic lead. Keep out of reach of children." I bought it around
1965.

It's heavy and very dark gray, as one would expect of lead fines. It would
spread pretty nicely on snack crackers, I think, but I was never enough of a
motorhead to try it.


I am missing part of the thread so I didn't have the whole picture
either. But I didn't realize they actually used real lead to make
anti-seize either.

I have a can of anti-seize that is graphite (I think) in a grease
slurry. Packaged for International Harvester in a nice metal screwtop
can with a brush. Looks like about a two lifetime supply to me as I
am at least the second owner of it.

I don't say this to start an argument, I am uncomfortable with the
thought of someone thinking you can grinding up lead to make a
lubricant.


Sorry, sorry. I'll watch my antecedents more carefully in the future. g


Don't worry too much, life is dangerous, no one gets out alive.

If you have a older South Bend with the little storage hole and dauber
on the tailstock, that was for storing white lead handy to the point
of usage. If you only have a mysterious hole, you have lost your
dauber.


I still have the precious dauber. And I use only dead centers.


Damn! I have only actually seen one in my life. I'll bet you could
put it on eBay and get a bundle for it.

I'm queer for gadgets and technology, I had to have a live center. I
thinking about getting a micrometer too. They say they are better
than vernier calipers. :)



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  #30   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:30:24 GMT, Ted Edwards wrote:

Other than nostalgia, what advantage does white lead have over Moly
Never-seez or, for that matter, the regular stuff?


I think in its day it was considered less likely to warm up and run
from where it was needed. Also, it turned dark as it was used so you
could see it needed to be freshened up. I still have some and have
used it occasionally.


If you're talking about its use on dead centers, it is an extreme
high-pressure "lubricant," although it doesn't work by chemical action with
the bearing or by some kind of linear molecular "stringiness," like some
high-tech, high-pressure lubricants. It just has a combination of moderate
lubricity and a very high resistance to being displaced.

I've used other things to lubricate dead centers, but, for steel workpieces
that are under some pressure in turning, I still use the white lead. I've
never seen anything that comes in a bottle or a tube that can take the
pressure without quickly producing metal-to-metal contact and generating a
lot of heat in the process.

Ed Huntress






  #31   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default 've never actually

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...

I have a can of anti-seize that is graphite (I think) in a grease
slurry. Packaged for International Harvester in a nice metal screwtop
can with a brush. Looks like about a two lifetime supply to me as I
am at least the second owner of it.


If it's really old, you may have lead. That was THE anti-seize back in the
'50s and before. You could take a matchhead-size dab of it and hit it with a
torch. You'll know in a hurry if it's lead or graphite.


If you have a older South Bend with the little storage hole and dauber
on the tailstock, that was for storing white lead handy to the point
of usage. If you only have a mysterious hole, you have lost your
dauber.


I still have the precious dauber. And I use only dead centers.


Damn! I have only actually seen one in my life. I'll bet you could
put it on eBay and get a bundle for it.


You could turn an exact replica in about two minutes and nobody would know
the difference. g


I'm queer for gadgets and technology, I had to have a live center. I
thinking about getting a micrometer too. They say they are better
than vernier calipers. :)


Well, I have perhaps 20 Starrett spring calipers, inside and outside, in
various sizes, plus some hermaphrodites. And about eight or nine slide
calipers and mikes, including quality digital models. Guess which ones I use
90% of the time? Gimme a good old spring caliper any day, for home and hobby
work.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)



  #32   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default 've never actually

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

You could turn an exact replica in about two minutes and nobody would know
the difference. g


The one in that picture I posted *was* a home-made replica of
a hardinge dauber. Took longer than two minutes to turn it,
especially if you count the time it took to fine one to
pattern it after!!

Now I've got the print, if anyone wants it.

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

  #33   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default 've never actually

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed

Huntress
says...

You could turn an exact replica in about two minutes and nobody would

know
the difference. g


The one in that picture I posted *was* a home-made replica of
a hardinge dauber. Took longer than two minutes to turn it,
especially if you count the time it took to fine one to
pattern it after!!


Cripes, you could do it with a file. g I don't have a digital camera, but,
if I get one, I'll photograph it (my lathe is a SB 10L) and post it with
dimensions.

Ed Huntress



  #34   Report Post  
Bray Haven
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

Hmm, never thought of using anti seize for that. I do some crowning work that
uses a cut out dead center and have been using STP for years but always looking
for something better. Wonder how the currently avail. anti seize compounds
work, like Never-Seez?
Greg Sefton

I've used other things to lubricate dead centers, but, for steel workpieces
that are under some pressure in turning, I still use the white lead. I've
never seen anything that comes in a bottle or a tube that can take the
pressure without quickly producing metal-to-metal contact and generating a
lot of heat in the process.

Ed Huntress


  #35   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

"Bray Haven" wrote in message
...
Hmm, never thought of using anti seize for that. I do some crowning work

that
uses a cut out dead center and have been using STP for years but always

looking
for something better. Wonder how the currently avail. anti seize

compounds
work, like Never-Seez?


I don't know, but the white lead and oil that's traditionally used for
lubricating tailstock centers isn't something I think of as anti-seize.
Maybe some anti-seize is formulated like that, but the stuff I've seen is
suspensions of metal particles in grease.

Anti-seize is formulated to prevent corrosion and galling from causing nuts
to stick on bolts. White lead in oil is an extreme-pressure lubricant, as
marginal as it may be at lubricating.

Ed Huntress






  #36   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Grease on lug nuts???

In article , Ed Huntress
says...

Maybe some anti-seize is formulated like that, but the stuff I've seen is
suspensions of metal particles in grease.


Or the black stuff, which is moly di sulfide. The idea
is, the laminar structure of that molecule allows it
to shear rather than ball up when it is subjected to
pressure. Kind of like graphite, but the MoS2 does
not combust the way graphite does.

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

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