I have a Crusader II (anilam), no "spiral" command,
it will do CW or CCW arcs.

You have to specify Start X,Y, End X,Y, and center
X,Y.

I am trying to cut a spiral into a piece of metal.
1/2" cutter, with 1/4" of steel between each
cut.

Can anyone recomment a CAD program or tell
me the math I need to use to program this into
my machine?

A spiral has several arcs, all from different
center points. I need to know the start X,Y,
end X,Y, and center X,Y for each of these
arcs.

Any help appreciated.

Rich

wrote:

I have a Crusader II (anilam), no "spiral" command,
it will do CW or CCW arcs.

You have to specify Start X,Y, End X,Y, and center
X,Y.

I am trying to cut a spiral into a piece of metal.
1/2" cutter, with 1/4" of steel between each
cut.

Can anyone recomment a CAD program or tell
me the math I need to use to program this into
my machine?

A spiral has several arcs, all from different
center points. I need to know the start X,Y,
end X,Y, and center X,Y for each of these
arcs.

Any help appreciated.

Rich



A true spiral has a continuously changing radius. Some high end CNC
machines have this feature built in to the control. Otherwise it is
usually programmed as a series of very short straight lines generated
by CAD software, a whole lotta G-code. An approximate spiral can be
cut by making half circles, each one smaller by the difference of the
gap and the width of the cutter.

Fred

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have a Crusader II (anilam), no "spiral" command,
it will do CW or CCW arcs.

You have to specify Start X,Y, End X,Y, and center
X,Y.

I am trying to cut a spiral into a piece of metal.
1/2" cutter, with 1/4" of steel between each
cut.

Can anyone recomment a CAD program or tell
me the math I need to use to program this into
my machine?

A spiral has several arcs, all from different
center points. I need to know the start X,Y,
end X,Y, and center X,Y for each of these
arcs.

Any help appreciated.

Google for Archimedan spiral and you should find some links that will help
with the design.

The basic formula is something like:

r = b * theta^a

where r = the radius,
theta = the angle in the X-Y plane
b = a scaling factor
a = coefficient that determines the degree of the spiral

Work out the values of "r" for different angles (theta in radians, I think)
and from that calculate the X-Y coordinates for various points. Play with
"a" and "b", to get the right number of spirals and distances between.

We did this at work for a small, flat-sheet, lab-scale membrane housing a
while back. We wanted a spiral groove in the face plate to direct fluid
flow in a spiral out from the center inlet to the outlet at the periphery of
the circular membrane. If it would help, I can email you the Excel
spreadsheet I used to calculate the coordinates that made up the curve. I
used a mechanical 3-D program (Alibre) to generate the dimensioned part with
the spiral groove, importing the coordinates from Excel to define the path
of the spiral. From there a DWG file was exported and sent off to the
machinist, who had no problem making the part. That's probably a lot more
work and expense than is justified for you, but it can be done pretty easily
given the right software and hardware tools.

That said, someone here will probably describe a simple method using a
Dremel tool and protractor g.

Mike

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have a Crusader II (anilam), no "spiral" command,
it will do CW or CCW arcs.

You have to specify Start X,Y, End X,Y, and center
X,Y.

I am trying to cut a spiral into a piece of metal.
1/2" cutter, with 1/4" of steel between each
cut.

Can anyone recomment a CAD program or tell
me the math I need to use to program this into
my machine?

A spiral has several arcs, all from different
center points. I need to know the start X,Y,
end X,Y, and center X,Y for each of these
arcs.

Any help appreciated.

Google for Archimedan spiral and you should find some links that will help
with the design.

The basic formula is something like:

r = b * theta^a

where r = the radius,
theta = the angle in the X-Y plane
b = a scaling factor
a = coefficient that determines the degree of the spiral

Work out the values of "r" for different angles (theta in radians, I think)
and from that calculate the X-Y coordinates for various points. Play with
"a" and "b", to get the right number of spirals and distances between.

We did this at work for a small, flat-sheet, lab-scale membrane housing a
while back. We wanted a spiral groove in the face plate to direct fluid
flow in a spiral out from the center inlet to the outlet at the periphery of
the circular membrane. If it would help, I can email you the Excel
spreadsheet I used to calculate the coordinates that made up the curve. I
used a mechanical 3-D program (Alibre) to generate the dimensioned part with
the spiral groove, importing the coordinates from Excel to define the path
of the spiral. From there a DWG file was exported and sent off to the
machinist, who had no problem making the part. That's probably a lot more
work and expense than is justified for you, but it can be done pretty easily
given the right software and hardware tools.

That said, someone here will probably describe a simple method using a
Dremel tool and protractor g.

Mike

There is an infinite universe of spirals out there. The simplest being
a constantly expanding radius vs rotational angle. Then you get into
exponential functions, hyperbolic functions, etc. etc. The CNC program
has to be capable of plotting the selected function.
Bugs

Send me your email address and I will send you a copy of lisp
code that will work with autocad or intelicad to generate the
spiral. Also I have a program I wrote [qbasic] that will convert
HPGL [not HPGL/2] to gcode. [versions available for emco f1,
hurco, Bport BOSS] Not hard to rewrite for most any controller
as it only does straight lines.

GmcD

On 18 Jun 2005 12:07:50 -0700, wrote:

I have a Crusader II (anilam), no "spiral" command,
it will do CW or CCW arcs.

You have to specify Start X,Y, End X,Y, and center
X,Y.

I am trying to cut a spiral into a piece of metal.
1/2" cutter, with 1/4" of steel between each
cut.

Can anyone recomment a CAD program or tell
me the math I need to use to program this into
my machine?

A spiral has several arcs, all from different
center points. I need to know the start X,Y,
end X,Y, and center X,Y for each of these
arcs.

Any help appreciated.

Rich

An approximate spiral can be
cut by making half circles, each
one smaller by the difference of the
gap and the width of the cutter.

Great! Very simple.

I drew one with a compass...
I have a question... There are
two center points in this scheme,
one for each "side" of the spiral.
My drawing wasn't very precise,
so I cant get a good measurement
of the distance between these center
points.

1/2" cutter, 1/8" space between cuts,
11" diameter outer half circle (11" between
CENTER of cutter)

What will distance between centerpoints
be?


Rich

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...

On 18 Jun 2005 12:07:50 -0700, wrote:

I have a Crusader II (anilam), no "spiral" command,
it will do CW or CCW arcs.

You have to specify Start X,Y, End X,Y, and center
X,Y.

I am trying to cut a spiral into a piece of metal.
1/2" cutter, with 1/4" of steel between each
cut.

Can anyone recomment a CAD program or tell
me the math I need to use to program this into
my machine?

A spiral has several arcs, all from different
center points. I need to know the start X,Y,
end X,Y, and center X,Y for each of these
arcs.


I think you're describing an Archimedian spiral. To calculate the points
along the toolpath:

If the center of the spiral is at (h,k),

r = (0.5 + 0.25) * angle / (2 * pi)

x = h + r * cos(angle)

y = k + r * sin(angle)

If it starts out at angle=0, then the spiral will start off in the positive
x-direction and proceed in a counter-clockwise pattern. You can fudge its
behavior by playing with the starting value for angle, the polar
expressions, and by adding an offset to angle.

HTH
--
Morris

I did a Google search on "definition spiral", and after looking at a few of
the hits, below seems to
describe what need.

The site said difference between a Archimedean spiral and a logarithmic
spiral is that the Archimedean
has a constant distance between the spirals, whereas the distance in a
logarithmic spiral forms a geometric
progression.

Suggest you check it out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedean_spiral

Ace


wrote in message
oups.com...
An approximate spiral can be
cut by making half circles, each
one smaller by the difference of the
gap and the width of the cutter.

Great! Very simple.

I drew one with a compass...
I have a question... There are
two center points in this scheme,
one for each "side" of the spiral.
My drawing wasn't very precise,
so I cant get a good measurement
of the distance between these center
points.

1/2" cutter, 1/8" space between cuts,
11" diameter outer half circle (11" between
CENTER of cutter)

What will distance between centerpoints
be?


Rich

Hi,

The link is interesting. Problem is, all the spirals mentioned
on the page would require a formula entered into the milling
machine.

I have a 1976 Anilam Crusader II. No serial port, no parallel
port. It has a tape drive. I have to manually enter any
program I want to run. As far as I know, you can only
program x,y,z movements (lines), and arcs (startx&Y,
endx&y, centerX&y).

I can't even have a CAD program draw a true spiral,
convert it to a series of x/y movements (straight lines)
and move it to the machine. No way to transfer data
from the PC to the crusader.

The "half circle" method that Fred (FF) mentioned
is *perfect* for my application. I only have to
program approximately 16 instructions into the
machine.

16 of these:
ARC CCW X,Y to X2,Y2 center = X3,Y3

easy and quick.. I understand how the
half-circle-spiral diameters work. I am just
trying to figure out how the center points
relate to eachother for programming into the
machine.

Rich

In article . com,
wrote:
Hi,

The link is interesting. Problem is, all the spirals mentioned
on the page would require a formula entered into the milling
machine.

I have a 1976 Anilam Crusader II. No serial port, no parallel
port. It has a tape drive.

If this is like the Crusader II that I used back around 1980 or
so, the tape drive sits on top of the controller, and connects to a
serial port on the controller. Unplug the tape drive, and you can plug
in a serial cable from a PC, and save or load files.

In a task which the *real* machinist there had to do, there was
a complex shape (intended as a special reflector) which had to be
machined from some 2" thick aluminum block, and then polished. The
shape was defined by a computer program, and it produced a file
containing the series of X and Y points.

While you don't program from the front panel with G-codes (at
least not fully), when you *save* a program, it *is* G-codes in the
saved form, and we were able to use that as a start, and edit the data
points file to produce the desired shape into the G-code file, and then
re-load it into the machine and run it.

Interestingly enough, examining the dumps of programs onto the
PC also showed some of the canned cycles, and taught me how it
referenced variables. It also gave me some hints as to which variables
were not yet in use, so I could write some custom canned cycles. (The
experiment involved canned cycles to engrave letters which could be
scaled when you called the cycle.)

So -- unless yours is different, you *do* have a serial port,
which just happens to be talking to the tape drive at present.

I have to manually enter any
program I want to run. As far as I know, you can only
program x,y,z movements (lines), and arcs (startx&Y,
endx&y, centerX&y).

Hmm ... there should be a collection of canned cycles, such as
doing circular and rectangular pocket milling -- and perhaps even
helical milling for when you want to do thread milling.

I can't even have a CAD program draw a true spiral,
convert it to a series of x/y movements (straight lines)
and move it to the machine. No way to transfer data
from the PC to the crusader.

I believe that there is -- if you investigate the port to which
the tape drive is connected. (Doesn't that drive use a weird version of
the mini cassettes?)

The "half circle" method that Fred (FF) mentioned
is *perfect* for my application. I only have to
program approximately 16 instructions into the
machine.

16 of these:
ARC CCW X,Y to X2,Y2 center = X3,Y3

easy and quick.. I understand how the
half-circle-spiral diameters work. I am just
trying to figure out how the center points
relate to eachother for programming into the
machine.

For that -- I am too far in time from the Anilam Crusader II
that I used -- and as I said, I was not the *real* machinist there, so I
just got to play with it from time to time. It is what convinced me
that I needed a CNC machine. :-)

I was the electronics technician who was also a computer geek,
so that is why I was playing with the saved program format looking for a
way to program it the way *I* knew to program.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

wrote:

An approximate spiral can be
cut by making half circles, each
one smaller by the difference of the
gap and the width of the cutter.



Great! Very simple.

I drew one with a compass...
I have a question... There are
two center points in this scheme,
one for each "side" of the spiral.
My drawing wasn't very precise,
so I cant get a good measurement
of the distance between these center
points.

1/2" cutter, 1/8" space between cuts,
11" diameter outer half circle (11" between
CENTER of cutter)

What will distance between centerpoints
be?


Rich




The distance between center points for your spiral is 0.3125

So if the center is X0 Y0 and you start on the left side:

ARC CCW X-5.500, Y0 to X4.875, Y0 center = X-.3125, Y0

and the second arc would be:

ARC CCW X4.875, Y0 to X-4.875,Y0 center = X0,Y0

third arc:

ARC CCW X-4.875,Y0 to X4.250,Y0 center = X-.3125,Y0

and so on...

Fred

I believe that there is -- if you investigate the port to which
the tape drive is connected. (Doesn't that drive use a weird version of
the mini cassettes?)

Hi,

There may have been an RS232 (serial) tape recorder for the
crusader, but mine is definitely NOT a serial port. The signals
available on the 25 pin connector are data in/out, "tape in",
"tape write protect", "record button", "play button", etc. I
don't know what level the data line is at, and I don't know
what protocol is used. I would have to disassemble
the ROM....

Yeah, it uses strange microcassettes... Standard micros'
won't work, they're too small..

Rich

In article .com,
wrote:
I believe that there is -- if you investigate the port to which
the tape drive is connected. (Doesn't that drive use a weird version of
the mini cassettes?)

Hi,

There may have been an RS232 (serial) tape recorder for the
crusader, but mine is definitely NOT a serial port. The signals
available on the 25 pin connector are data in/out, "tape in",
"tape write protect", "record button", "play button", etc. I
don't know what level the data line is at, and I don't know
what protocol is used. I would have to disassemble
the ROM....

Hmm ... do you know what CPU it uses? I never got a chance to
dig into the hardware of the one at work.

As for the pins -- they may be *called* different things, but
I'll bet that they are the same as RS-232 anyway. Just for starters,
the "data-in" and "data-out" pins -- are those by any chance pins 2 and
3 (or perhaps reverse order)? The others could be the standard
handshaking pins -- DTR, DSR, RTS, CTS, DCD, RI and the like.

If it were non-RS-232, it would be more likely to have a
parallel interface -- eight pins used at once as data, with other pins
selecting for data-in or data-out direction.

It *could* even be that the cassette does use a different
interface, but uses pins other than the ones needed for RS-232. The
absolute minimum would be pins 2, 3, and 7 (Data in and out, and logic
ground), with possibly pins 4 and 5 used for flow control (RTS & CTS).
IIRC, the cable which I had to make to use it was only four wires -- 2,
3, 7, and one of RTS or CTS (4 or 5).

Since you appear to have a listing of the pins from somewhere,
could you post it, and I'll see how it matches up to RS-232? (I'll
actually *check* references for the pin numbers, instead of working from
memory as I am doing at the moment.

Yeah, it uses strange microcassettes... Standard micros'
won't work, they're too small..

I found some micros sold for answering machines which looked
about the right size, but which were physically different enough so they
could not be used. I believe that the ones use by the Anilam (and
certainly the ones used by my Emco-Maier Compact-5/CNC) were the
Phillips micro cassettes, and the dictating machine/answering machine
ones were a different family from a different designer.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Hmm ... do you know what CPU it uses?

8080


As for the pins -- they may be *called* different things, but
I'll bet that they are the same as RS-232 anyway. Just for starters,
the "data-in" and "data-out" pins -- are those by any chance pins 2 and
3 (or perhaps reverse order)? The others could be the standard
handshaking pins -- DTR, DSR, RTS, CTS, DCD, RI and the like.

yeah, but does RS232 have 1 in, 1 out, (data), plus 2 data IN (the
record and play buttons are wired directly to the connector)... I
don't think this is RS232. I have the schematic.


If it were non-RS-232, it would be more likely to have a
parallel interface -- eight pins used at once as data, with other pins
selecting for data-in or data-out direction.

It *might* be parallel, but I doubt it. 1 pin is used for data. It is
digital. I haven't been able to find a timing line, so I believe the
tape player is pre-calibrated to run at the same speed as the
CPU.


Since you appear to have a listing of the pins from somewhere,
could you post it, and I'll see how it matches up to RS-232? (I'll
actually *check* references for the pin numbers, instead of working from
memory as I am doing at the moment.

tomorrow I will put a list of the pins I have been able to trace.
If you email me (aiiadict AT gmail DOT com) I will email
schematics.

I found some micros sold for answering machines which looked
about the right size, but which were physically different enough so they
could not be used.

We figured this out too. If I can get a PC to "emulate" a tape drive,
then I can at the very least use Notepad to create programs (nice
with a copy/paste/delete/select) and "Load" them to the crusader II.

And when I do any editing on the crusader, I could "save" to the PC.

There are no synch or timing lines to the 25 pin recorder connector.
I believe it operates like all the old tape drives did (apple II,
commodore,
etc)

Rich

In article .com,
wrote:
Hmm ... do you know what CPU it uses?

8080

Ouch! Not very powerful I would have expected at least the
8086, or a 68000 series CPU for the task. I seem to remember it having
more memory than an 8080 could address.

As for the pins -- they may be *called* different things, but
I'll bet that they are the same as RS-232 anyway. Just for starters,
the "data-in" and "data-out" pins -- are those by any chance pins 2 and
3 (or perhaps reverse order)? The others could be the standard
handshaking pins -- DTR, DSR, RTS, CTS, DCD, RI and the like.

yeah, but does RS232 have 1 in, 1 out, (data), plus 2 data IN (the
record and play buttons are wired directly to the connector)... I
don't think this is RS232. I have the schematic.

You mean *pin* 1 as data? If so, that is certainly not RS-232.
Pin 1 is supposed to be the (often ignored) safety ground.

If you want the full documentation on RS-232 pinout (using the
DB-25 connector, at least), it can be found at:

http://www.aggsoft.com/rs232-pinout-cable/RS232.htm

A lot of the pins listed in this are not commonly used. Pins 2, 3, and
7 are almost always used. Pins 4, 5, 6, 8, and 20 are frequently used,
especially for modem connections, which are what RS-232 was designed
for.

Pins 2 and 3 are serial data transfer pins. The remainder serve
handshaking functions, such as "hold on a minute -- until I empty my
buffer and make more room for data" (CTS) or "The phone just rung, and
the modem is about to answer (RI).

As for voltages, you can have both negative and positive
voltages on the pins. The voltages can be as high as +/- 15V, or as low
as +/- 5V. (Actually, IIRC, 3V is supposed to be accepted on inputs, but
outputs should produce at least 5V. Negative voltage is signal true,
positive voltage is signal false.)

If it were non-RS-232, it would be more likely to have a
parallel interface -- eight pins used at once as data, with other pins
selecting for data-in or data-out direction.

It *might* be parallel, but I doubt it. 1 pin is used for data. It is
digital. I haven't been able to find a timing line, so I believe the
tape player is pre-calibrated to run at the same speed as the
CPU.

If a single pin is used for data, then it is serial data, and
RS-232 is a common serial data interface. (But that "pin 1" is a
problem -- at least for the DB-25 connectors.) Pin 1 *is* used on the
9-pin RS-232 connector used on PCs these days. You can find that pinout
at:

http://www.aggsoft.com/rs232-pinout-...l-port-db9.htm

Since you appear to have a listing of the pins from somewhere,
could you post it, and I'll see how it matches up to RS-232? (I'll
actually *check* references for the pin numbers, instead of working from
memory as I am doing at the moment.

tomorrow I will put a list of the pins I have been able to trace.
If you email me (aiiadict AT gmail DOT com) I will email
schematics.

That probably won't work. My email server is tailored to reject
any e-mail larger than 30K -- and almost any scan of a drawing will be
bigger than that.

If you've got a web page where you could put it up for a short
while, that will work.

And my e-mail address in the headers above is real. But please
don't send HTML if you can control it.

I found some micros sold for answering machines which looked
about the right size, but which were physically different enough so they
could not be used.

We figured this out too. If I can get a PC to "emulate" a tape drive,
then I can at the very least use Notepad to create programs (nice
with a copy/paste/delete/select) and "Load" them to the crusader II.

And when I do any editing on the crusader, I could "save" to the PC.

Agreed. That is what we used to do. And I do remember having
to unplug the tape drive to plug in the RS-232. (Your tape drive *is*
in a separate box, isn't it? I guess that it is possible that your
Anilam and the one which I used were different.

There are no synch or timing lines to the 25 pin recorder connector.
I believe it operates like all the old tape drives did (apple II,
commodore,

That probably involves some smarts in the box, and RS-232
dumping the data into the buffer memory in the box, which would then
write it onto the tape. Certainly the Commodore ones worked like this
for the floppys, if not for the tape. The Apple II used audio tones
recorded which encoded the serial data by switching back and forth
between two tones. (Pretty much the way modems worked, too.) It was a
very inefficient recording system, compared to digital cassettes (I've
interfaced and used both in the early days.)

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article .com,
wrote:
Hmm ... do you know what CPU it uses?

8080


As for the pins -- they may be *called* different things, but
I'll bet that they are the same as RS-232 anyway. Just for starters,
the "data-in" and "data-out" pins -- are those by any chance pins 2 and
3 (or perhaps reverse order)? The others could be the standard
handshaking pins -- DTR, DSR, RTS, CTS, DCD, RI and the like.

yeah, but does RS232 have 1 in, 1 out, (data), plus 2 data IN (the
record and play buttons are wired directly to the connector)... I
don't think this is RS232. I have the schematic.

O.K. I just did a web search, and this should tell you what
you need to know:

http://faculty.etsu.edu/hemphill/ent...mill/chp14.htm

Note in particular the first sentence on that page:

"The Anilam Crusader II has an RS-232 communications port for
serial communications between various storage devices (PC, paper
tape punch/reader, printers, cassette, etc.)."

So -- *this* says that the Crusader II uses RS-232 to talk to the
cassette drive (among other things)

It goes on to tell you how to set the parameter for the RS-232
communications (with AUX codes).

And the next page up will tell you a lot of other things about
your Anilam Crusader II which you might not yet know:

http://faculty.etsu.edu/hemphill/entc3710/ani-mill/

It even reminds me of the format of the variable referencing, such as:

G29 LV43=1.5

being used to set a variable in G-code (or just V43 from the front
panel), and IIRC, something like:

G01 V43 V44, V45

would do a move to the location stored in those three variables. (Of
course, those variable are already used by the canned cycles, but others
(higher numbers) were not yet in use, so you could generate your own
canned cycle to increment the angle and the distance, and thus generate
the spiral directly in the machine. (Obviously experiment with no
cutters and well clear of the anything to test the idea first.)

And -- you would need a way to test whether you were done, or it
would simply keep getting larger, so there was a need to test for done.
For that, I would have to play with the machine again to perhaps recover
that information.

But -- this gives you hope -- at least of talking to the PC via
the RS-232. Note that the people who wrote that web page used a switch
box to switch between cassette tape, computer, and perhaps a printer or
a punched tape reader or punch.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Hey DoN,

Thanks for that site about the RS 232. At the same site, I also found
a very useful page, for anybody with any of a large variety of older
CNC machines, especially the ANILAM II stuff for me.

http://www.aggsoft.com/sitemap.htm

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On 22 Jun 2005 00:41:21 -0400, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:
SNIP
If you want the full documentation on RS-232 pinout (using the
DB-25 connector, at least), it can be found at:

http://www.aggsoft.com/rs232-pinout-cable/RS232.htm

BIGGER SNIP
Good Luck,
DoN.

I have schematics..

there is PCB 483 (CPU with tape recorder port)
there is PCB 493 (CPU with tape port, also 1 rs232 port)

I have 483, tape port only...

it is 8085 processor. tape port data lines come directly off
a 8155 chip

"The 8155/8156 is a very old combination chip containing 256*8 RAM,
a timer and 8+8+6 ports."

the 8155 has d0-d7 from the 8085 CPU connected, as well as reset,
RD/WR and a few other CPU pins... The clk (out) from the 8085
is connected to some sort of ?divider?, then routed to the
8155.

off the 8155 there a

(-xx-) = active low

O 1) DATA OUT data from crusader to tape drive
I 2) STOP/(-RUN)- this controls tape drive motor (on/off)
I 3) rewind/(-fwd) this controls direction of tape drive motor
I 4) read/(-write) controls head.. to read or write
I 5) slow/(-fast) controls tape speed. fast = rewind/ffd slow
= read or write
O 6) read data in data from tape drive to crusader
? 7) a/b don't know
? 8) leader don't know
O 9) wr protect this is a switch in the recorder. pushes
agains the "write protect" area on the cassette
O 10) cassete in place this is a switch in the recorder. pushes
against the cassette
O 11) play switch \
O 12) record switch to switches on cassete unit
O 13) stop switch /

O = output (output from tape to crusader II computer)
I = input (input from crusader II computer to tape drive)

total of 7 output lines
4 input lines
2 unknowns

Those aren't pin numbers... just a list.

I don't think it is rs232 compatible. The data
is sent serially (1 data line), but there are no
timing lines (handshake, etc).

the PCB 493 (which I don't have) has rs232
port built in.

PCB 483 schematic shows a small area
of the circuit that has been "deleted"
by the engineers, it is labeled "deleted-PC499 is
used for serial i/o transmission"

I can't find PCB493 for sale anywhere.. I am
tempted to run a parallel port monitor on
my windows PC, connect the lines from the
tape port to it, and watch what signals do
what when data is saved to the "tape".

I could see what timing/format the data IN
and data OUT pins are using. Perhaps
a communications program on the PC
will be able to talk to the crusader this
way..

Or, I could write a C program to "emulate"
the tape drive. example, LOADing a program
into the crusader:

You press "get ready for program" on the
crusader.

You would usually then press play on the
recorder. The crusader can detect this
button through the taperecorder cable.

On the PC, you would have a "play" button
on a window, that would make the appropriate
pin on the parallel port go HIGH.

Rich

In article . com,
wrote:
I have schematics..

there is PCB 483 (CPU with tape recorder port)
there is PCB 493 (CPU with tape port, also 1 rs232 port)

O.K.

I have 483, tape port only...

Interesting -- because the web page to which I pointed said that
the tape drive was serial and the same port could be used for other
RS-232 devices.

it is 8085 processor. tape port data lines come directly off
a 8155 chip

O.K. And an 8155 is a PIO (parallel I/O) chip similar to the
Motorola 6820 (except designed to interface to a different system bus).

Note that a Parallel I/O port can be used to talk to serial
(RS-232) devices (called a "bit-banger" interface). The original SWTP
6800 computer used a few pins on a 6820 to talk to the terminal which
served as a console, instead of using the 6850 chip (ACIA -- serial port
chip). This was done because the serial chip was not yet in production
when Motorola designed the first breadboard computer and ROM for
engineers to play with.

In this case, the reason for doing a bit-banger on a parallel
I/O chip is because of all of the sense and control leads which the tape
drive needs. It could *still* be wired as an RS-232 interface, as long
as you ignore enough of the spare pins. This is why I've been asking
what connections go to which pins on the connector.

"The 8155/8156 is a very old combination chip containing 256*8 RAM,
a timer and 8+8+6 ports."

Yes, I agree.

the 8155 has d0-d7 from the 8085 CPU connected, as well as reset,
RD/WR and a few other CPU pins... The clk (out) from the 8085
is connected to some sort of ?divider?, then routed to the
8155.

Probably generating the bit rate clock which was then fed into
an interrupt pin on the 8155, so it didn't have to do the timing in
software. Hmm ... I don't see an interrupt pin on the 8155, but I do
see a "Timer In" (pin 3 on the chip), which could dserve the function.
The timer is a programmable divider, which could be programmed to
generate the various baud rates needed. Does that divider go to pin 3?
(There are advantages to having antique data books around. :-)

off the 8155 there a

(-xx-) = active low

O 1) DATA OUT data from crusader to tape drive

O.K. Can you trace this and tell me which pin it goes to on the
DB-25 connector? Perhaps one of 2 or 3?

I 2) STOP/(-RUN)- this controls tape drive motor (on/off)
I 3) rewind/(-fwd) this controls direction of tape drive motor
I 4) read/(-write) controls head.. to read or write
I 5) slow/(-fast) controls tape speed. fast = rewind/ffd slow
= read or write
O 6) read data in data from tape drive to crusader

And does this one go to one of pins 2 or 3 on the DB-25
connector?

? 7) a/b don't know

This probably goes to a sensor in the drive which can tell which
side of the tape is out -- for a file big enough to take two tape sides
to save, perhaps.

? 8) leader don't know

Some (though not all) of the tapes of this size have a
transparent leader which could be sensed by a LED and photosensor in the
drive, so the system doesn't start writing until you are past the leader
and onto the writable tape.

O 9) wr protect this is a switch in the recorder. pushes
agains the "write protect" area on the cassette

Sure.

O 10) cassete in place this is a switch in the recorder. pushes
against the cassette

Yep -- to keep from attempting to save to a tape which was not
in the drive.

O 11) play switch \
O 12) record switch to switches on cassete unit
O 13) stop switch /

O = output (output from tape to crusader II computer)
I = input (input from crusader II computer to tape drive)

O.K. Commonly shown as "-" (tape to computer), and "-"
computer to tape.

total of 7 output lines
4 input lines
2 unknowns

I think that I have filled those in for you.

Those aren't pin numbers... just a list.

The pin numbers are important.

I don't think it is rs232 compatible. The data
is sent serially (1 data line), but there are no
timing lines (handshake, etc).

RS-232 does not *use* timing lines. It starts with a "start
bit", then a series of known length of data bits, followed by an
optional parity bit, and one or two stop bits. (Two stop bits were
needed on the ASR-33 teletype, to allow the mechanism time to reset.)

the PCB 493 (which I don't have) has rs232
port built in.

Perhaps a secondary RS-232, instead of a bit-banger interface.

PCB 483 schematic shows a small area
of the circuit that has been "deleted"
by the engineers, it is labeled "deleted-PC499 is
used for serial i/o transmission"

An optional bit of circuitry.

I can't find PCB493 for sale anywhere.. I am
tempted to run a parallel port monitor on
my windows PC, connect the lines from the
tape port to it, and watch what signals do
what when data is saved to the "tape".

If you can verify that the data to and from the cassette are on
pins 2 and 3, I would suggest trying to analyze it as RS-232. When
talking to a computer via RS-232, it would not need to use all of the
pins which talk to the tape drive, and those AUX codes could be to tell
the Crusader to ignore those extra pins while talking to a computer or
something else via RS-232.

I could see what timing/format the data IN
and data OUT pins are using. Perhaps
a communications program on the PC
will be able to talk to the crusader this
way..

I'm still willing to bet (at least until you feed me connector
pin numbers which say that it can't be) that it can and will talk
RS-232. But first use a scope to check the voltages on those pins -- as
the computer might not like the RS-232 + and - voltages into parallel
port (0-5V only) pins.

Or, I could write a C program to "emulate"
the tape drive. example, LOADing a program
into the crusader:

Yes.

You press "get ready for program" on the
crusader.

You would usually then press play on the
recorder. The crusader can detect this
button through the taperecorder cable.

On the PC, you would have a "play" button
on a window, that would make the appropriate
pin on the parallel port go HIGH.

I still believe that you can just use a plain communications
program to talk to it via RS-232. Remember to make the cable as shown
on that web page.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Thank you for discussing this with me,
and the information you have provided.

at http://rich12345.tripod.com/crusader/tape.zip

there is a schematic of the tape interface electronics
that are present on the CPU board in the Crusader
II. This is PCB 483.

I have also traced where the lines go on the
tape connector on the back of the machine
(25 pin ?DB?) I will add a scan of that later
today.

Thanks again !

Rich

I didn't have enough space on my
site, so I created another one:


http://crusaderii.tripod.com/index.htm

Rich

In article .com,
wrote:
I didn't have enough space on my
site, so I created another one:

O.K. That explains why I could not get through to the first
one.

http://crusaderii.tripod.com/index.htm

Now *this* gives me a lot of hope. While it does not show the
actual pinout at the DB-25 connector, what it *does* show is the numbers
"89" and "88" in the drivers and receivers. Now -- back in those days,
the most common RS-232 drivers and receivers were the 1489 and 1488.
Some of them started with "MC", but other makers produced similar ones.
All would have the 1488 and 1489 numbers in them. This increases the
chances that this was a bit-banger interface emulating an RS-232, and
can be used (with the proper AUX codes)

The chips are equivalent to the TI 75188 and 75189 -- one of
each I see in the shaded out area, so that is probably what the "88" and
"89" chips are. Anyway -- we are still talking about RS-232 drivers and
receivers.

And even if the "data out" and "data in" pins don't wind up on
pins 2 and 3 of the DB-25 connector, as long as one each of a 75188 and
75189 wind up on those pins, the software (selected by the AUX codes)
can switch them around to be what you need.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

It has been a while since I last saw a drafted schematic

wrote:
I didn't have enough space on my
site, so I created another one:


http://crusaderii.tripod.com/index.htm

Rich

at:

http://crusaderii.tripod.com/index.htm

I have posted a picture of the spiral I cut out
in plywood using my Crusader II milling
machine. Thanks alot to Fred!!

Rich

wrote:

at:

http://crusaderii.tripod.com/index.htm

I have posted a picture of the spiral I cut out
in plywood using my Crusader II milling
machine. Thanks alot to Fred!!

Rich




Rich,

Thanks for posting the picture :-) Keep on making chips!

Fred