Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #281   Report Post  
Old June 27th 05, 10:06 PM
Arnold Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arnold Walker" wrote:

Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by

insurance
companies.


CFR (Call for Reference) on the above. as I believe it to be
Bull****..... the only Steampowered Trains still in existance,
and in commercial service are in third and fouth world countries,
and mostly run on diesel fired boilers. Turning big air compressors
with diesel engines is a very wastefull way to move Railroad Rolling
Stock.


Me

They don't always have a IC engine on board for the compressor...
Some recompress themselves with exhaust air,then heat the air recovered in
the boiler.

Many mine trains also run on air since sparks can be deadly in the right
environment.
They usually are either diesel air or stored air trains.



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  #282   Report Post  
Old June 27th 05, 10:28 PM
News
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Arnold Walker" wrote in message
...

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 05:10:55 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
wrote:


"wmbjk" wrote in message
.. .


Now, if compressed air is so much more efficient than batteries, then
why do *you* think that we're seeing ICE/battery hybrid cars driving
around, but not ICE/air hybrids?

Wayne


Because it is pure PC instead of science for starts.
There are and have been air powered cars...they are lighter for a

hybrid
version
than a battery hybrid.Since all you do is add a burner in most cases.
Brayton cycle in a turbine ....Or rankine or sterling in a piston .


Off hand, I can think of three ICE/battery hybrids currently selling
in good numbers - Toyota Prius, and Honda Civic and Accord. Unless you
can offer some similar examples of ICE/air hybrids, I'm going to stick
with the notion that car manufacturers haven't found compressed air to
be a competitive energy storage medium for automobiles.

Wayne

A more accurate answer is that Toyota and Honda chose to capitalize on the
PC ,while
GM,Mercedes ,and the of the auto world chose to look for an engine. That
actually was more effecent at something other than
emptying your pockets.

Stanley had third market manufacturers converting thier steamcars to air

in
the early 1900's.


About 18 months ago Prof Tsu-Chin Tsao, of UCLA was working with Ford on an
IC/air engine hybrid. It received a good press. All in the same engine
using a camless valve train with hydraulic/elecro valve activation, brake
regeneration and on a stradard V6. It was surprised to double mpg around
town, and about 12% more on the highway. The standard engine meant it could
be up and running soon. It would stop onnidel and take on air, when
depleted the engine would run on fossil fuel, charging the air tank when
braking. Charging the tank overnight may have been economical too using
grid electricity. http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features18
This was pretty well what the French are still doing with their car -
running on fossil fuel and air. http://www.mdi.lu So far no news of the
Ford/UCLA development, or is he just developing and keeping out of the way?


  #283   Report Post  
Old June 28th 05, 12:36 AM
George Ghio
 
Posts: n/a
Default



wmbjk wrote:
On 26 Jun 2005 19:48:32 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:



If you have more to contribute on subject, please feel free to offer
it.

Thanks in advance,

TMT



Here's a sample day's work (yesterday's) in an off-grid workshop. The
project was building the last 2 of 5 scissor trusses for a friend's
aircraft hangar. All material was scrap - chords of 2" and 1.5"
schedule 40 pipe. Long braces from T posts, shorter ones from 5/8"
sucker rod. Most of the material was cut a few days ago. I wore out 3
chop saw blades (medium quality ones) which should give you an idea of
run time. The trusses are 40' wide, but built in halves. Each half
took about 30 minutes to lay out and prep, including about 15 minutes
use of a 4" side grinder. Then 26 welds per side, flip, another 26
welds. Layout, prep, and welding - about one hour total per half, with
a long break between each one to cool off. I built 4 halves, about 100
minutes welding for the day. I didn't check the current draw, but the
machine was set at 280 inches per second, 18 Volts, with .035" solid
wire. Perhaps 5kW input. Charging rate was medium, there was good sun,
but almost no wind, which was nice because I could leave the shop
doors open. When I quit for the day, my wife commented that battery
state of charge had dropped 6 Amp hours, and that she'd used the AC in
the office for a couple of hours. On this project, like most others
here, there wasn't any penalty for being off-grid, which is way cool
IMO.

Wayne



Ah Wayne, it looks like your saying 5kW for 1.6 hours and claiming that
it equates to 6 amp hours.

Would you like to refrase that amd perhaps look at the maths.

You use of units may be suspect. And your numbers would suggest that you
can only work when the sun is out.

5Kw input for 1.6 hours at 24V looks suspiciously like 333Ah.
  #284   Report Post  
Old June 28th 05, 01:55 AM
wmbjk
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:36:36 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:



wmbjk wrote:
On 26 Jun 2005 19:48:32 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"


Here's a sample day's work (yesterday's) in an off-grid workshop. The
project was building the last 2 of 5 scissor trusses for a friend's
aircraft hangar. All material was scrap - chords of 2" and 1.5"
schedule 40 pipe. Long braces from T posts, shorter ones from 5/8"
sucker rod. Most of the material was cut a few days ago. I wore out 3
chop saw blades (medium quality ones) which should give you an idea of
run time. The trusses are 40' wide, but built in halves. Each half
took about 30 minutes to lay out and prep, including about 15 minutes
use of a 4" side grinder. Then 26 welds per side, flip, another 26
welds. Layout, prep, and welding - about one hour total per half, with
a long break between each one to cool off. I built 4 halves, about 100
minutes welding for the day. I didn't check the current draw, but the
machine was set at 280 inches per second, 18 Volts, with .035" solid
wire. Perhaps 5kW input. Charging rate was medium, there was good sun,
but almost no wind, which was nice because I could leave the shop
doors open. When I quit for the day, my wife commented that battery
state of charge had dropped 6 Amp hours, and that she'd used the AC in
the office for a couple of hours. On this project, like most others
here, there wasn't any penalty for being off-grid, which is way cool
IMO.

Wayne



Ah Wayne, it looks like your saying 5kW for 1.6 hours and claiming that
it equates to 6 amp hours.

Would you like to refrase that amd perhaps look at the maths.

You use of units may be suspect. And your numbers would suggest that you
can only work when the sun is out.

5Kw input for 1.6 hours at 24V looks suspiciously like 333Ah.


I started at about 8AM, and I finished up at about 4PM. During that
time, 2000 Watts of tracked PV was doing its job, along with a tiny
bit of help from 1300 Watts of wind generator in the AM. Duh!

Even after all your pathetic nonsense, I'm still astonished that with
your claimed 20 years of experience, that you need such simple
concepts explained to you. Haven't you learned *anything*? How the
hell can you function? As usual, whatever you do, don't admit that you
just wrote perhaps *the* biggest blunder of your Usenet career, or
apologise for it. But if you had one iota of shame, you'd go stand in
the corner for the next 20 years.

BTW, in your haste to act the fool, you failed to notice an actual
mistake - that I wrote "inches per second" wire speed when I should
have written inches per *minute*. Can't you do *anything* right?

Wayne
  #285   Report Post  
Old June 28th 05, 04:59 AM
George Ghio
 
Posts: n/a
Default



wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:36:36 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:



wmbjk wrote:

On 26 Jun 2005 19:48:32 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"



Here's a sample day's work (yesterday's) in an off-grid workshop. The
project was building the last 2 of 5 scissor trusses for a friend's
aircraft hangar. All material was scrap - chords of 2" and 1.5"
schedule 40 pipe. Long braces from T posts, shorter ones from 5/8"
sucker rod. Most of the material was cut a few days ago. I wore out 3
chop saw blades (medium quality ones) which should give you an idea of
run time. The trusses are 40' wide, but built in halves. Each half
took about 30 minutes to lay out and prep, including about 15 minutes
use of a 4" side grinder. Then 26 welds per side, flip, another 26
welds. Layout, prep, and welding - about one hour total per half, with
a long break between each one to cool off. I built 4 halves, about 100
minutes welding for the day. I didn't check the current draw, but the
machine was set at 280 inches per second, 18 Volts, with .035" solid
wire. Perhaps 5kW input. Charging rate was medium, there was good sun,
but almost no wind, which was nice because I could leave the shop
doors open. When I quit for the day, my wife commented that battery
state of charge had dropped 6 Amp hours, and that she'd used the AC in
the office for a couple of hours. On this project, like most others
here, there wasn't any penalty for being off-grid, which is way cool
IMO.

Wayne



Ah Wayne, it looks like your saying 5kW for 1.6 hours and claiming that
it equates to 6 amp hours.

Would you like to refrase that amd perhaps look at the maths.

You use of units may be suspect. And your numbers would suggest that you
can only work when the sun is out.

5Kw input for 1.6 hours at 24V looks suspiciously like 333Ah.



I started at about 8AM, and I finished up at about 4PM. During that
time, 2000 Watts of tracked PV was doing its job, along with a tiny
bit of help from 1300 Watts of wind generator in the AM. Duh!


We now know that you have 2000 watts of PV and 1300 Watts of wind.

Actual PV & wind production numbers, Watt hours will do.

Do you even know what was produced and used during that day?

If, and it is a big if, you in fact were producing energy at the rated
output for say 6 hours of the day which would be on the order of 19.7kWh
and you drew another 144Wh from the batteries, well you can see the
problem. You say 5kW input. Your numbers are vague at best.

Please, just once in your life try to bring some truth to your numbers.


Even after all your pathetic nonsense, I'm still astonished that with
your claimed 20 years of experience, that you need such simple
concepts explained to you. Haven't you learned *anything*? How the
hell can you function? As usual, whatever you do, don't admit that you
just wrote perhaps *the* biggest blunder of your Usenet career, or
apologise for it. But if you had one iota of shame, you'd go stand in
the corner for the next 20 years.

BTW, in your haste to act the fool, you failed to notice an actual
mistake - that I wrote "inches per second" wire speed when I should
have written inches per *minute*. Can't you do *anything* right?

Wayne


Well lets see. All you had to do was account for the numbers you used.

5kW input wonderful. Yes I made a mistake, I used 100 minutes when in
fact you meant 8 hours. Sorry. So this would be 5kW for 8 hours which is
of course 40kWh which is 1666.66 Amp hours. Is this your wonderful two
days autonomy at work.

Now Wayne would you like to account for the energy you used in a
coherent manner? 5kW or 5kWh? Do you know the difference?

The biggest blunder - YOURS.

Who cares about inches per minute or seconds. What does the welder draw
in watts? How many amps, what material thickness, how much penetration?

Or are we still talking about your hot melt glue gun.

It is easy to tell when you are out of your depth. The deeper you are
the more you foam at the mouth.

Your numbers do not add up. You now have another chance to explain your
numbers. So wipe your nose and the foam off your chin, get out your
calculator, and make some sense of your numbers.

George









  #286   Report Post  
Old June 28th 05, 03:55 PM
wmbjk
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:59:42 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:36:36 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:
wmbjk wrote:


Here's a sample day's work (yesterday's) in an off-grid workshop. The
project was building the last 2 of 5 scissor trusses for a friend's
aircraft hangar. All material was scrap - chords of 2" and 1.5"
schedule 40 pipe. Long braces from T posts, shorter ones from 5/8"
sucker rod. Most of the material was cut a few days ago. I wore out 3
chop saw blades (medium quality ones) which should give you an idea of
run time. The trusses are 40' wide, but built in halves. Each half
took about 30 minutes to lay out and prep, including about 15 minutes
use of a 4" side grinder. Then 26 welds per side, flip, another 26
welds. Layout, prep, and welding - about one hour total per half, with
a long break between each one to cool off. I built 4 halves, about 100
minutes welding for the day. I didn't check the current draw, but the
machine was set at 280 inches per second, 18 Volts, with .035" solid
wire. Perhaps 5kW input. Charging rate was medium, there was good sun,
but almost no wind, which was nice because I could leave the shop
doors open. When I quit for the day, my wife commented that battery
state of charge had dropped 6 Amp hours, and that she'd used the AC in
the office for a couple of hours. On this project, like most others
here, there wasn't any penalty for being off-grid, which is way cool
IMO.

Wayne


the Blunder From Down Under wrote


Ah Wayne, it looks like your saying 5kW for 1.6 hours and claiming that
it equates to 6 amp hours.

Would you like to refrase that amd perhaps look at the maths.

You use of units may be suspect. And your numbers would suggest that you
can only work when the sun is out.

5Kw input for 1.6 hours at 24V looks suspiciously like 333Ah.


I started at about 8AM, and I finished up at about 4PM. During that
time, 2000 Watts of tracked PV was doing its job, along with a tiny
bit of help from 1300 Watts of wind generator in the AM. Duh!


5kW input wonderful. Yes I made a mistake, I used 100 minutes when in
fact you meant 8 hours. Sorry. So this would be 5kW for 8 hours which is
of course 40kWh which is 1666.66 Amp hours. Is this your wonderful two
days autonomy at work.


No you Baron of Blunders, the largest part of the shop consumption was
(about) 5kW for 100 minutes. You had the demand part nearly right the
first time. You simply neglected to account for the balance of the
demands (all the house loads, about 4 kWhrs), and the *entire* supply
side (about 12 kWhrs). Why you're now trying to multiply the short
term shop power demand by 8 hours is between you and your therapist.

Face it man, you're busted. If there's a responsible authority
controlling solar installers in your area, reading such a fundamental
lapse in critical thinking by someone in their charge, then the writer
would at the very least be called onto the carpet for remedial
training. Not that such would do much good if he hadn't gotten the
basics down after 20 years.

The biggest blunder - YOURS.


Sure George, a system that can supply a day's use of workshop and all
the house loads as well, and come out with a 150 Whr deficit is
obviously just one giant blunder.

Get help man.

Wayne
  #287   Report Post  
Old June 28th 05, 09:49 PM
Me
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
"Arnold Walker" wrote:

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arnold Walker" wrote:

Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by

insurance
companies.


CFR (Call for Reference) on the above. as I believe it to be
Bull****..... the only Steampowered Trains still in existance,
and in commercial service are in third and fouth world countries,
and mostly run on diesel fired boilers. Turning big air compressors
with diesel engines is a very wastefull way to move Railroad Rolling
Stock.


Me

They don't always have a IC engine on board for the compressor...
Some recompress themselves with exhaust air,then heat the air recovered in
the boiler.

Many mine trains also run on air since sparks can be deadly in the right
environment.
They usually are either diesel air or stored air trains.



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Newsgroups
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You really don't know a lot about mechanical engineering, do you.....


then heat the air recovered in the boiler. Would this be in the

boilers that "due to boiler code worrys by insurance companies" you
state they don't use anymore????

Actually here in the USA most of the Mine Trains are electric with
Induction motors, and Solidstate FreqDrives that have no brushes or
Sparkpoints that aren't covered by Flame Supperssion Barriers....
Flame Suppresion Technology has been in our mines since the 1920's
when they were mostly electrified. A few are diesel-electric, and a
few more Propane-electric, but being a retired Powderman, I has some
small experience in the Industry, and have NEVER seen an Air Powered
Mine Donkey. Basic Menchanical Engineering Thermaldynamics should be
enough to convince anyone, that Stored Air Trains would be a Collasally
Inefficent way to power a mine donkey, and if it were even in the same
Order of Magnitude, all that conversion loss, would be a deal killer,
anyway.


Me CFR really means not your opinion, but someone elses actall
Reseached Facts..............
  #288   Report Post  
Old June 29th 05, 01:24 AM
George Ghio
 
Posts: n/a
Default



wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 13:59:42 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:


wmbjk wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 09:36:36 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

wmbjk wrote:



Here's a sample day's work (yesterday's) in an off-grid workshop. The
project was building the last 2 of 5 scissor trusses for a friend's
aircraft hangar. All material was scrap - chords of 2" and 1.5"
schedule 40 pipe. Long braces from T posts, shorter ones from 5/8"
sucker rod. Most of the material was cut a few days ago. I wore out 3
chop saw blades (medium quality ones) which should give you an idea of
run time. The trusses are 40' wide, but built in halves. Each half
took about 30 minutes to lay out and prep, including about 15 minutes
use of a 4" side grinder. Then 26 welds per side, flip, another 26
welds. Layout, prep, and welding - about one hour total per half, with
a long break between each one to cool off. I built 4 halves, about 100
minutes welding for the day. I didn't check the current draw, but the
machine was set at 280 inches per second, 18 Volts, with .035" solid
wire. Perhaps 5kW input. Charging rate was medium, there was good sun,
but almost no wind, which was nice because I could leave the shop
doors open. When I quit for the day, my wife commented that battery
state of charge had dropped 6 Amp hours, and that she'd used the AC in
the office for a couple of hours. On this project, like most others
here, there wasn't any penalty for being off-grid, which is way cool
IMO.

Wayne



the Blunder From Down Under wrote



Ah Wayne, it looks like your saying 5kW for 1.6 hours and claiming that

it equates to 6 amp hours.

Would you like to refrase that amd perhaps look at the maths.

You use of units may be suspect. And your numbers would suggest that you
can only work when the sun is out.

5Kw input for 1.6 hours at 24V looks suspiciously like 333Ah.



I started at about 8AM, and I finished up at about 4PM. During that
time, 2000 Watts of tracked PV was doing its job, along with a tiny
bit of help from 1300 Watts of wind generator in the AM. Duh!



5kW input wonderful. Yes I made a mistake, I used 100 minutes when in
fact you meant 8 hours. Sorry. So this would be 5kW for 8 hours which is
of course 40kWh which is 1666.66 Amp hours. Is this your wonderful two
days autonomy at work.



No you Baron of Blunders, the largest part of the shop consumption was
(about) 5kW for 100 minutes.


Welding;

100min / 60 = 1.6 hours X 5kW = 8000kWh / 24 = 333Ah

You had the demand part nearly right the
first time. You simply neglected to account for the balance of the
demands (all the house loads, about 4 kWhrs),


House;

4000Wh / 24 = 166.6Ah
and the *entire* supply
side (about 12 kWhrs).


Input;

12000Wh / 24 = 500Ah

Total;

333Ah + 166.6Ah = 499.6Ah


Hmmm no deficit here.

Well Wayne you have claimed a 150Wh deficit. I may be a bit of a skeptic
here, but, some how I just can't see that all the other things you would
do in a workshop for the task would only use 150Wh. It looks like you
you did 100 minutes of welding then watched TV for the rest of the day.

You also claim 12000Wh input. What is this based on. Being summer in
your part of the world + the fact that hot panels have a reduced output
can it be that you are simply multiplying the rated output of the
panels by six. What was the logged input for the day? Surely you monitor
your system? Or is all of this just a guess?



Why you're now trying to multiply the short
term shop power demand by 8 hours is between you and your therapist.


In fact you said "I started at about 8AM, and I finished up at about
4PM." This is some what longer than 100 minutes. With an input of 5kW.

The question remains; Can you make a coherent accounting of your energy
use/input for the day?

You see, if Too_Many_Tools is to set up an off grid workshop he might
find the actual numbers useful in deciding what he will do. How much
grinder time is 150Wh. It's just that 100 minutes work and the house
seems like you think that 100 minutes a day is a good days work.

I will give you as many attempts as you need to make sense. OTOH I don't
think you can balance your numbers. Surprise me.

Face it man, you're busted. If there's a responsible authority
controlling solar installers in your area, reading such a fundamental
lapse in critical thinking by someone in their charge, then the writer
would at the very least be called onto the carpet for remedial
training. Not that such would do much good if he hadn't gotten the
basics down after 20 years.


The biggest blunder - YOURS.



Sure George, a system that can supply a day's use of workshop and all
the house loads as well, and come out with a 150 Whr deficit is
obviously just one giant blunder.

Get help man.

Wayne














  #289   Report Post  
Old June 29th 05, 11:10 AM
News
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Me" wrote in message
...

Actually here in the USA most of the Mine Trains are electric with
Induction motors, and Solidstate FreqDrives that have no brushes or
Sparkpoints that aren't covered by Flame Supperssion Barriers....
Flame Suppresion Technology has been in our mines since the 1920's
when they were mostly electrified. A few are diesel-electric, and a
few more Propane-electric, but being a retired Powderman, I has some
small experience in the Industry, and have NEVER seen an Air Powered
Mine Donkey.


Mine trains using air motors were extensively used in Belgium, France and
Germany. In the 1930s the Germans had a diesel/air hybrid loco, that gave
very good economy. I don't know why it was dropped.

Air is being looked into as a hybrid for vehicles. It makes sense to use air
for brake regeneration and starting, as air is free. No expensive batteries
and it can be used all in the one engine, as the UCLA/Ford project and the
MDI aircar in France does.

Improve the IC engine and matters are even more efficient. Revetec are to
bring to market, so they say, an IC engine using cams instead of a
crankshaft that improves efficiency by about 90%, so they say.
http://www.revetec.com This cam arrangement can be used in any engine,
using any fuel, that uses a crankshaft.




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