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  #261   Report Post  
Old June 26th 05, 03:34 PM
Tim Thomson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Robert Bonomi wrote:

In article ,
lionslair at consolidated dot net "lionslair at consolidated dot net" wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:

[[.. munch ..]]

It's a matter of history. The "standard" -- for what was expected at the
outlet in a residence -- changed over the years as power distribution got
better.

[[.. munch ..]]

Your Honda is probably at claimed 125V because of *lousy* voltage regulation.
125V at 'no load', dropping to 120V (or lower) as the load increases.

Our house in the mountains of No. Ca. was a few miles from a swinging
transformer.
Under low load, the transformer was at one voltage, as the current increased,
the transformer switched in another set of windings up until it hit an end.
The swinging transformer had massive make-before-break contacts that always rang
(voltage hits) as it moved. I called the power company when it started hitting
my lines heavy (I was logging them on my APC's) and they found a burnt contact.


At one point I lived "across the parking lot" from the local sub-station.
the feed came out of the substation, down *one* pole, with the transformer
and the drop to the 6 apartment building I was living in. the building
was turn-of-the-century construction, with -- I think -- still original
wiring. I could get an *nine* volt drop at the wall, by kicking on one
of my pieces of electronic test gear -- one that drew about 8 amps. *OUCH*.

Anyway, I'm across the street from a school, 2 blocks from a *big* hospital,
And had several other sizable 'commercial' users within a few blocks.
A line-voltage monitor showed as high as 133V in early AM, with it slowly and
somewhat erratically falling to about 127V by somewhere after 9AM on a
week-day.

*THAT* led to a call/complaint to the electric company, Demanding that
they get the voltage down to the 'proper' level. (That degree of excess
voltage _is_ hard on equipment, and other things. Reduces the effective
life of incandescent bulbs by about _half_, in fact.)

For some reason, customer service didn't want to believe me -- I guess
complaints about "too much power" are *really* rare.

They suggested that what I was reporting "couldn't be happening".
That whatever I was using to read the voltage must be 'in error'.

I pointed out that I had _five_ separate pieces of test equipment, by five
different manufacturers, that were all telling the _same_ story, within about
2V (analog readout uncertainty on some of the meters). That all were
industrial- and/or lab-grade gear. That the precision-reading unit (readable
to 1/4v or finer) had been used for 'reference checks' at half-a-dozen other
locations around the city, and registered 118.5 - 121.5 at *every* other
location. (About the only thing I didn't have was a _recording_ meter / data-
logger.

They _grudgingly_ agreed to send an engineer out to see me. He took
one look at my 'bench', and said "Hell, you've got better equipment there
than _I_ do." Then, looked at my readings and said "that's not right!"
(He didn't even bother to cross-check with his own gear.) Borrowed my phone,
called in to the office, and ordered an _immediate_ roll of a maintenance
team to the substation, and goes outside to wait for the crew to show up.
Which they did, in less than 15 minutes. Less than half an hour later,
my instrumentation is showing a "respectable" 117V. rising all the way
to 123V when the rest of the neighborhood shut down.

I even got a credit on my bill -- where they went back an re-figured what the
kilowatt-hours _should_ have been if they had not been delivering 'too high'
voltage. I'd only lived there a few months, but they back-credited to the
date I moved in. It was about 15% of everything I'd paid.


I call bull**** on the credit! As if..............



  #262   Report Post  
Old June 26th 05, 04:02 PM
wmbjk
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:09:46 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

wmbjk wrote:
I just thought that the same type of self-destructive
stubbornness that drove you to come out against AGM batteries, PV
tracking, and Kill a Watts was also the cause of your failure to use
the sun to heat water.


AGM batteries. Problem - end user.


With any type of battery, on a good system the charge controller
limits overcharging, an inverter limits depth of discharge, and either
the controller or the inverter handles equalizing. But on AGMs,
there's no water to check. So what *exactly* is there for the owner to
screw up? Besides, you started out by condemning AGMs based solely on
your outdating "training". You only invented this fictitious "owner"
problem once more knowledgeable folks corrected your original blunder.
Face it George, AGMs are successfully used, particularly where it's
suspected that owners might not keep up with checking the water on
flooded batteries.

PV Tracking. Problem - most not relible enough,


Baloney. And not being "relible" was only part of your position. You
also used made-up numbers to claim that tracking doesn't add
sufficient production. I don't believe you'd ever even considered the
improvement in charging time versus discharge time, despite having
gone through several sets of batteries in your own setup, which could
have been a lesser problem with the improvement of the lengthened
charging day tracking provides.

- further problem -
enduser wants a bargain Refuses to pay for quality or do maint.


That might be true of the type of people who'd hire the local blowhard
handyman. But generally trackers are part of better quality systems.

Kill a Watt. Problem - You use it for entertainment. Problem lies with
end user not the Kill a Watt.


I don't own a Kill a Watt, so I don't use one for entertainment or
otherwise. When you came out strongly against their use, you had no
way of knowing who was going to be using them or for what purpose. The
fact is, you make a bad habit of coming out strongly against good
recommendations. Until someone tells me the clinical designation for a
person who indulges in such contrary behavior, I'll use the layman's
term of "lone nitwit".

Solar Hot Water. Problem - None


Then what *exactly* has prevented a self-professed master fabricator,
and self-titled "*solar* power consultant", from building a solar
water heating system for 20 years? Do you really believe that living
in a hot and sunny place, yet getting a mere 5% of your energy from
the sun is something to be proud of, and entitles you to preside as
Judge Blunder?

Reserved for further posting


Let me guess, you're toiling away on another of your little "stories"?
At 2.5kW per day system installation time, shouldn't you be out doing
that instead? One would think that installing $35k systems for $240
would keep you pretty busy. snorf

Wayne
  #263   Report Post  
Old June 26th 05, 04:17 PM
wmbjk
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:10:24 GMT, "daestrom"
wrote:


"John P Bengi" JBengi (spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote in message
...
Leave the child alone. He doesn't know anything.


Nor, does George seem to contribute anything other than his definition of
'days of autonomy' and his harping on Wayne about it. George might consider
some help since his 'days of autonomy' mantra seems to have taken over his
entire existence and pushed out any other helpful contributions.

The subject is 'workshop in an alternate homepower environment', but it has
degenerated to YAWVGM (yet-another-wayne-versus-george-match).

The OP might as well just start a new thread to ask any new questions, these
two guys will not contribute anything more to the discussion, and most of us
recognize the YAWVGM and ignore the thread from here on.


You're mostly right, but don't discount the lesson served up by
George's setup. It's a perfect example of tunnel-vision design,
decreased utility, and how to spend less in the beginning, but more in
the long run. For those considering hiring an installer, it also
demonstrates the importance of seeking out one with well-rounded
experience, as opposed to someone with what I call "contractor's"
disease. That's where a tradesman can't see the forest for the trees,
and continues to make the same assumptions and mistakes for an entire
career.

Wayne
  #264   Report Post  
Old June 26th 05, 04:31 PM
John P Bengi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I am onboard totally with you on this one. Must be the Great Lakes
environment...LOL Hot huh?

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

"John P Bengi" JBengi (spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote in message
...
Leave the child alone. He doesn't know anything.


Nor, does George seem to contribute anything other than his definition of
'days of autonomy' and his harping on Wayne about it. George might

consider
some help since his 'days of autonomy' mantra seems to have taken over his
entire existence and pushed out any other helpful contributions.

The subject is 'workshop in an alternate homepower environment', but it

has
degenerated to YAWVGM (yet-another-wayne-versus-george-match).

The OP might as well just start a new thread to ask any new questions,

these
two guys will not contribute anything more to the discussion, and most of

us
recognize the YAWVGM and ignore the thread from here on.


Moving on.....
daestrom




  #265   Report Post  
Old June 26th 05, 04:34 PM
John P Bengi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You must live in a tiny town if they sent out an Engineer for that...LOL

Did he have ditch digging caluses on his hands too?

Nice going. Never give up when you know you are right.

You would never get a rebate here for high voltage. power delivered is power
billed.

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
...
In article ,
lionslair at consolidated dot net "lionslair at consolidated dot net"

wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:

[[.. munch ..]]

It's a matter of history. The "standard" -- for what was expected at

the
outlet in a residence -- changed over the years as power distribution

got
better.

[[.. munch ..]]

Your Honda is probably at claimed 125V because of *lousy* voltage

regulation.
125V at 'no load', dropping to 120V (or lower) as the load increases.

Our house in the mountains of No. Ca. was a few miles from a swinging
transformer.
Under low load, the transformer was at one voltage, as the current

increased,
the transformer switched in another set of windings up until it hit an

end.
The swinging transformer had massive make-before-break contacts that

always rang
(voltage hits) as it moved. I called the power company when it started

hitting
my lines heavy (I was logging them on my APC's) and they found a burnt

contact.


At one point I lived "across the parking lot" from the local sub-station.
the feed came out of the substation, down *one* pole, with the transformer
and the drop to the 6 apartment building I was living in. the building
was turn-of-the-century construction, with -- I think -- still original
wiring. I could get an *nine* volt drop at the wall, by kicking on one
of my pieces of electronic test gear -- one that drew about 8 amps.

*OUCH*.

Anyway, I'm across the street from a school, 2 blocks from a *big*

hospital,
And had several other sizable 'commercial' users within a few blocks.
A line-voltage monitor showed as high as 133V in early AM, with it slowly

and
somewhat erratically falling to about 127V by somewhere after 9AM on a
week-day.

*THAT* led to a call/complaint to the electric company, Demanding that
they get the voltage down to the 'proper' level. (That degree of excess
voltage _is_ hard on equipment, and other things. Reduces the effective
life of incandescent bulbs by about _half_, in fact.)

For some reason, customer service didn't want to believe me -- I guess
complaints about "too much power" are *really* rare.

They suggested that what I was reporting "couldn't be happening".
That whatever I was using to read the voltage must be 'in error'.

I pointed out that I had _five_ separate pieces of test equipment, by five
different manufacturers, that were all telling the _same_ story, within

about
2V (analog readout uncertainty on some of the meters). That all were
industrial- and/or lab-grade gear. That the precision-reading unit

(readable
to 1/4v or finer) had been used for 'reference checks' at half-a-dozen

other
locations around the city, and registered 118.5 - 121.5 at *every* other
location. (About the only thing I didn't have was a _recording_ meter /

data-
logger.

They _grudgingly_ agreed to send an engineer out to see me. He took
one look at my 'bench', and said "Hell, you've got better equipment there
than _I_ do." Then, looked at my readings and said "that's not right!"
(He didn't even bother to cross-check with his own gear.) Borrowed my

phone,
called in to the office, and ordered an _immediate_ roll of a maintenance
team to the substation, and goes outside to wait for the crew to show up.
Which they did, in less than 15 minutes. Less than half an hour later,
my instrumentation is showing a "respectable" 117V. rising all the way
to 123V when the rest of the neighborhood shut down.

I even got a credit on my bill -- where they went back an re-figured what

the
kilowatt-hours _should_ have been if they had not been delivering 'too

high'
voltage. I'd only lived there a few months, but they back-credited to the
date I moved in. It was about 15% of everything I'd paid.





  #266   Report Post  
Old June 26th 05, 05:02 PM
Tim Thomson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

John P Bengi wrote:

You must live in a tiny town if they sent out an Engineer for that...LOL

Did he have ditch digging caluses on his hands too?

Nice going. Never give up when you know you are right.

You would never get a rebate here for high voltage. power delivered is power
billed.

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
...
In article ,
lionslair at consolidated dot net "lionslair at consolidated dot net"

wrote:
Robert Bonomi wrote:

[[.. munch ..]]

It's a matter of history. The "standard" -- for what was expected at

the
outlet in a residence -- changed over the years as power distribution

got
better.

[[.. munch ..]]

Your Honda is probably at claimed 125V because of *lousy* voltage

regulation.
125V at 'no load', dropping to 120V (or lower) as the load increases.

Our house in the mountains of No. Ca. was a few miles from a swinging
transformer.
Under low load, the transformer was at one voltage, as the current

increased,
the transformer switched in another set of windings up until it hit an

end.
The swinging transformer had massive make-before-break contacts that

always rang
(voltage hits) as it moved. I called the power company when it started

hitting
my lines heavy (I was logging them on my APC's) and they found a burnt

contact.


At one point I lived "across the parking lot" from the local sub-station.
the feed came out of the substation, down *one* pole, with the transformer
and the drop to the 6 apartment building I was living in. the building
was turn-of-the-century construction, with -- I think -- still original
wiring. I could get an *nine* volt drop at the wall, by kicking on one
of my pieces of electronic test gear -- one that drew about 8 amps.

*OUCH*.

Anyway, I'm across the street from a school, 2 blocks from a *big*

hospital,
And had several other sizable 'commercial' users within a few blocks.
A line-voltage monitor showed as high as 133V in early AM, with it slowly

and
somewhat erratically falling to about 127V by somewhere after 9AM on a
week-day.

*THAT* led to a call/complaint to the electric company, Demanding that
they get the voltage down to the 'proper' level. (That degree of excess
voltage _is_ hard on equipment, and other things. Reduces the effective
life of incandescent bulbs by about _half_, in fact.)

For some reason, customer service didn't want to believe me -- I guess
complaints about "too much power" are *really* rare.

They suggested that what I was reporting "couldn't be happening".
That whatever I was using to read the voltage must be 'in error'.

I pointed out that I had _five_ separate pieces of test equipment, by five
different manufacturers, that were all telling the _same_ story, within

about
2V (analog readout uncertainty on some of the meters). That all were
industrial- and/or lab-grade gear. That the precision-reading unit

(readable
to 1/4v or finer) had been used for 'reference checks' at half-a-dozen

other
locations around the city, and registered 118.5 - 121.5 at *every* other
location. (About the only thing I didn't have was a _recording_ meter /

data-
logger.

They _grudgingly_ agreed to send an engineer out to see me. He took
one look at my 'bench', and said "Hell, you've got better equipment there
than _I_ do." Then, looked at my readings and said "that's not right!"
(He didn't even bother to cross-check with his own gear.) Borrowed my

phone,
called in to the office, and ordered an _immediate_ roll of a maintenance
team to the substation, and goes outside to wait for the crew to show up.
Which they did, in less than 15 minutes. Less than half an hour later,
my instrumentation is showing a "respectable" 117V. rising all the way
to 123V when the rest of the neighborhood shut down.

I even got a credit on my bill -- where they went back an re-figured what

the
kilowatt-hours _should_ have been if they had not been delivering 'too

high'
voltage. I'd only lived there a few months, but they back-credited to the
date I moved in. It was about 15% of everything I'd paid.


As a matter of fact would his metor not run less with some things like his
fridge, vacuum, hair dryer, washing machine, dish washer, etc. What makes a
power metor spin? If voltage goes up does the amp draw go down?
I would give my left nut to have a little more voltage. Switch mode power
supplies love a slightly higher voltage and often run cooler when they are run
at max voltage.

  #267   Report Post  
Old June 26th 05, 05:48 PM
John P Bengi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Energy meters spin by the combination of current and voltage creating torque
on the non-ferrous disc as it tries to get out of the magnetic AC fluxes
created at 90 degrees to each other.

On resistive devices and most devices the current and power goes up as the
voltage increases. You bulb will be brighter etc..

On synchronous devices like AC motor compressors and furnace fans etc. the
speed is locked to the power line frequency. 60Hzx 2 changes x 60 sec/min /
#poles in the motor will pas the electromagnetic pole that creates the
torque and you typically get 1800 RPM. This is fairly constant, which means
the work that it puts out is constant also (constant workload) When you
lower the voltage to the motor now is has to draw more current to do the
same work and can eventually burn out by overheating from the high current.


BTW: If you have a disc or equivalent in your Electric Meter you can
determine the load of your house going through the meter at any given time
by clocking it with a stopwatch.

Look at you meter and observe the disc. You should notice a little black
mark passing on the edge of the disc every revolution. Time a couple of
these revolutions and mark the time (in seconds) down. I usually do about 60
seconds worth. There also may be fractional marks if your meter is moving
really slow and don't have an hour to wait (exag)

Also notice on the front of the nameplate of your meter there is a "disc
constant" noted as kH. This is the amount of energy (in watthours) that the
meter has measured each revolution of the disc. It will probably read
something like kH 7.2 or kH 12. This is the part that is tightly regulated
for accuracy.

Now apply it to this formula:

revs x kH x time(secs) / 3600. sec per hour

This will give you your home load in watts (power). This technique can be
useful to check the power of appliances to see where you hard earned energy
dollars are going each month by shutting off all the breakers except one and
looking for the energy pigs.

If you have a solid state kilowatthour meter on your house there will be a
blinking LED or simulated disc in LCD but the same thing will apply. Look
for a constant for the "equivalent disc revs" or LED kH.

Best of luck.



"Tim Thomson" wrote in message
...

As a matter of fact would his metor not run less with some things like his
fridge, vacuum, hair dryer, washing machine, dish washer, etc. What makes

a
power metor spin? If voltage goes up does the amp draw go down?
I would give my left nut to have a little more voltage. Switch mode power
supplies love a slightly higher voltage and often run cooler when they are

run
at max voltage.



  #268   Report Post  
Old June 26th 05, 08:09 PM
Cliff
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:10:57 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

Cliff expostulated:

| On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:39:39 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| Maytag
|
| My impression of themis one of overpriced stuff that's
| no better than anyone else's.

Their top end (like their competitors' top end) products /are/ highly
priced. In at least Maytag's case the top end products are, in fact,
as good as they can make 'em. The R&D guys actually talk to the
production assemblers, pay attention to what they say, and make
product changes on the basis of their suggestions. More usually
(elsewhere) an assembly person has to tell a foreman who might or
might not tell a supervisor - and so on up the ladder until there's an
information "bridge" back down the chain to the R&D guys.


None of that would give any hint of what actually failed in the
field and flooded out the end customer or anything similar.
For that you'd need to know what went wrong, not just
how to make it cheaper.
--
Cliff
  #269   Report Post  
Old June 26th 05, 08:13 PM
Cliff
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:47:34 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

Whirlpool


I once met their engineer that suggested replacing
all those custom hoses, fittings, pumps, etc. on their
washing machine models with a single set of standard
ones. I gather that they did it.

To this day I wonder how they got the contract for
the toilet(s) on the International Space Station.

BTW, They used to use ComputerVision IIRC.
--
Cliff
  #270   Report Post  
Old June 26th 05, 08:19 PM
Morris Dovey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Cliff (in ) said:

| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:10:57 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| Cliff expostulated:
||
||| On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:39:39 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
||| wrote:
|||
|||| Maytag
|||
||| My impression of themis one of overpriced stuff that's
||| no better than anyone else's.
||
|| Their top end (like their competitors' top end) products /are/
|| highly priced. In at least Maytag's case the top end products are,
|| in fact, as good as they can make 'em. The R&D guys actually talk
|| to the production assemblers, pay attention to what they say, and
|| make product changes on the basis of their suggestions. More
|| usually (elsewhere) an assembly person has to tell a foreman who
|| might or might not tell a supervisor - and so on up the ladder
|| until there's an information "bridge" back down the chain to the
|| R&D guys.
|
| None of that would give any hint of what actually failed in the
| field and flooded out the end customer or anything similar.
| For that you'd need to know what went wrong, not just
| how to make it cheaper.

Of course. Did the paragraphs following the one you quoted make it to
your server? If not:

The Maytag link to the customer call center is disconcertingly
direct.
When I first arrived I had a "recycled" R&D phone number and got calls
from CS call center operators demanding that problems be fixed *RIGHT
NOW!* That I wasn't the person they thought they were calling didn't
seem to make any difference - nor did the fact that I wasn't even a
Maytag employee. One gal told me that didn't matter and that I'd
better get up off my butt and FIND OUT who should be fixing this
problem and make 'em aware of it and have them get back to her
posthaste.

Maytag could never get away with showing a commercial of that scene
(can't admit right out loud in front of God and everybody that
someone's had a problem with our product!); but after I came out of
shock I decided it was actually pretty impressive. Again, it's
noteworthy that in all of these "hot" calls the communication was
between "indians".

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html




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