Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #181   Report Post  
Old June 22nd 05, 02:37 PM
wmbjk
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:41:15 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:54:27 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:


I've lived in, and worked out of, an actual solar/wind powered home
and workshop for nearly ten years. Both have the amenities that most
people consider "normal", and together they require about 50 gallons
of backup fuel per year. A respected regular in the energy newsgroups
has publicly affirmed my descriptions of our place after visiting
here. The only fiction is from a bitter old Aussie fart who doesn't
like having to admit that his own so-called "solar powered" home in
fact gets the majority of its power from burning fuel that must be
hauled in, a situation he apparently hopes to ameliorate by
criticizing anyone who's done better.

Wayne


Ok Wayne, we will try again.

I have on several occasions posted my entire energy use. Accounting for
every fuel and source of energy, laid out by the day, week, month and year.


Apparently you believe that "accounting" for energy production is
somehow better than actually producing energy. Let's see how that
works - 1kWhr is about enough to power a contractor grade table for 40
minutes. Or it might power a homeowner-grade MIG welder for 20
minutes. Still, that level of production might be sufficient for a
putterer, except that in your case, you'd still need a five times
larger inverter, and would then have to run the generator to power the
house, having exhausted the day's production in but minutes of shop
use.

I am able to do so because I: 1) designed my system to meet my needs,
and 2) monitor my system.


Doing without, and getting the bulk of your energy from fuel that must
be bought and hauled, isn't anything to be proud of for someone who
claims to be a professional. I can't count the number of amateurs I
know who've done better.

OTOH you have failed to be able to define your two days of autonomy (at
the also nondisclosed reduced level of use) let alone what your energy
use is for everything.


As I've said many times, I will *never* write anything you demand.

The truth is that no one in their right mind would or indeed should take
advice from a person who can not define some thing as simple as days of
autonomy.


I've answered hundreds of emails from folks who are considering making
the move to off-grid, and are curious to hear how that's worked out
from someone who's already done it. The fact that I won't play along
here under the pretense that you're an expert probably won't have much
affect on their level of interest one way or another.

You have no idea, have never had an idea, will never have an idea what
your system uses or produces. Let alone define your entire energy use
for all applications.


My setup provides virtually all the energy to power a "normally"
equipped home. *That* is the part I find useful, not diddling with
spreadsheets to "prove" something to a quack.

Yet you claim tens years experiance.


I *have* ten years experience. You've read from a respected regular
that nothing is misrepresented. Your habit of denying the undeniable
has made you a laughing stock.

Which is just
half as long as I have been off grid.


Living off a propane and generator based system with a tiny solar
supplement for all those years is only proof that you're satisfied to
do something poorly for much longer than most. Living in a hot climate
while claiming to be a master fabricator, yet failing after 20 years
to build a simple solar water heating system is pathetic. Even so, no
one would bother to call you on that feebleness except for the fact
that you repeatedly indulge in gratuitous insults.

Hence the warning about your advice. The warning stands as valid.


What "stands" is your boneheaded insistence on making a fool of
yourself.

Now, do you have *anything* to say about off-grid workshops? No, I
didn't think so.

Wayne


  #182   Report Post  
Old June 22nd 05, 02:38 PM
wmbjk
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 05:10:55 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
wrote:


"wmbjk" wrote in message
.. .


Now, if compressed air is so much more efficient than batteries, then
why do *you* think that we're seeing ICE/battery hybrid cars driving
around, but not ICE/air hybrids?

Wayne


Because it is pure PC instead of science for starts.
There are and have been air powered cars...they are lighter for a hybrid
version
than a battery hybrid.Since all you do is add a burner in most cases.
Brayton cycle in a turbine ....Or rankine or sterling in a piston .


Off hand, I can think of three ICE/battery hybrids currently selling
in good numbers - Toyota Prius, and Honda Civic and Accord. Unless you
can offer some similar examples of ICE/air hybrids, I'm going to stick
with the notion that car manufacturers haven't found compressed air to
be a competitive energy storage medium for automobiles.

Wayne
  #183   Report Post  
Old June 22nd 05, 03:50 PM
F. George McDuffee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

snip
And the doomsayers were saying this about Japan when a Japanese
businessman bought pebble beach in the 80's. He
subsequently sold it back to an American consoritium for a
significant loss.

snip
One problem with this approach/attitude is that it ignores the
human costs. This is actually 1,600 well paying manufacturing
jobs affecting 1,500 or more families, and 14.8 million dollars
in local tax revenues.

Second problem is that this gives the Chinese an opening wedge
into the U.S. major appliance market with an existing brand and
dealer network, directly threatening #1 Whirlpool with all the
jobs and local taxes revenue they represent.

Third problem will not be come apparent for a few years when
anguished messages are posted to these news groups lamenting that
blanking and forming die tool makers and press set-up men are
unavailable.

If this were an event that affected only a few players, I would
be selling tickets. Unfortunately, this almost entirely affects
only the average person with roots in their community and many
years invested in learning a trade.

See these URLs for additional/background info

http://www.jobsillinois.us/news/cont...w.asp?c=123669

http://www.iasb.com/files/nb0604.htm

http://www.cfoss.com/maytag.html



  #184   Report Post  
Old June 22nd 05, 04:39 PM
Morris Dovey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

F. George McDuffee wrote:

One problem with this approach/attitude is that it ignores the
human costs. This is actually 1,600 well paying manufacturing
jobs affecting 1,500 or more families, and 14.8 million dollars
in local tax revenues.


A visit to Newton might provide some insights. Spending a bit of time
inside Maytag's headquarters, R&D facility, and manufacturing areas
might leave you wondering why it's taken so long for this to happen.

Second problem is that this gives the Chinese an opening wedge
into the U.S. major appliance market with an existing brand and
dealer network, directly threatening #1 Whirlpool with all the
jobs and local taxes revenue they represent.


The threat to Whirlpool is certainly /possible/; but not a given. It
will take a fair amount of time and a huge expenditure of resources to
bring Maytag to the point where it's again sufficiently robust to
threaten Whirlpool. It could happen, but only if Whirlpool management
allows it to happen.

Third problem will not be come apparent for a few years when
anguished messages are posted to these news groups lamenting that
blanking and forming die tool makers and press set-up men are
unavailable.


This seems like a logical conclusion - but it might be worth
investigating to find out how many of these people Maytag directly
employs and what their average age is...

If this were an event that affected only a few players, I would
be selling tickets. Unfortunately, this almost entirely affects
only the average person with roots in their community and many
years invested in learning a trade.


Hmm. I'm not sure how you've reached your conclusion; but my own
opinion (formed by direct observation) is that it's unlikely that the
Chinese will value the current Maytag employees less than the old
management. The major differences, I suspect, will be that outsourced
operations will be relocated from Germany and Mexico to the Pacific
Rim.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto


  #185   Report Post  
Old June 22nd 05, 06:18 PM
F. George McDuffee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

snip
If this were an event that affected only a few players, I would
be selling tickets. Unfortunately, this almost entirely affects
only the average person with roots in their community and many
years invested in learning a trade.

==========
Hmm. I'm not sure how you've reached your conclusion; but my own
opinion (formed by direct observation) is that it's unlikely that the
Chinese will value the current Maytag employees less than the old
management. The major differences, I suspect, will be that outsourced
operations will be relocated from Germany and Mexico to the Pacific
Rim.

===================
To put it another way -- If you are going Vegas or Atlantic City,
it is expected that you will use your own money to gamble. If
you use the company's money and are discovered you go to jail.
Even if you win, the winnings belong to the company and not to
you [common law master/servant rule] .

The way it is now, individuals are making high stakes bets, and
keeping the winnings if they win and making other people eat the
losses if the lose.

If I sell you a machine that I don't own and keep the money for
myself and get caught, I will be put in jail and the legal owner
can recover the machine. Why is it any different with a
corporation? What will the individual managers of Maytag lose by
this move after they have run the company into the ground? How
many collected bonuses over the last few years? How much will the
US taxpayers have to pony up for the pensions?



  #186   Report Post  
Old June 22nd 05, 08:00 PM
Mike Wilcox
 
Posts: n/a
Default



John P Bengi wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

"Cliff" wrote in message
...
It's nice to know the CONTEXT or the question before
the response, for one thing.

More may be below .... go reread it all G.



OE is Junk.
  #187   Report Post  
Old June 22nd 05, 09:57 PM
Morris Dovey
 
Posts: n/a
Default

F. George McDuffee wrote:

What will the individual managers of Maytag lose by
this move after they have run the company into the ground? How
many collected bonuses over the last few years? How much will the
US taxpayers have to pony up for the pensions?


Lose? Nothing at all. Their resumes will reflect that they brokered a
desirable transfer of ownership on behalf of their shareholders.

Lotsa bonus dollars paid out. Not sure what'll happen to the value of
Ralph Hakes' million dollar home in Newton (probably don't need to
tell you that a million dollar home in a small town in Iowa bears
astonishingly little resemblance to a million dollar home in say, San
Francisco or Fairfax), but doubt that he's too concerned about real
estate values at the moment.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto


  #188   Report Post  
Old June 22nd 05, 11:54 PM
John P Bengi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I rest my case. You lose.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:15:41 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Posting returned to usenet bottom-posting convention.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

Ah, a msoft zealot -- that explains it. In your previous posting you
whined about no browser supporting bottom posting, yet as shown above,

you
recognize that Agent, as well as many other Usenet readers that were

around
before Saint Bill discovered the Internet conform to the bottom posting
convention.

... snip




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-
-----+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-
-----+


BTW, most "real" usenet reading software is smart enough to trim sig
lines from the reply lines.

Really? Now let's see you answer this post without separating the headers
and the text and yet still bottom post. Show me how Agent supports this
bottom posting garbage idea.


??? "separating the headers and the text?, what are you talking about?
The headers of a posting are the routing and history information of the
posting and associated book-keeping. The text is the body of the message.

It will only take one more response to demo what a dumb idea bottom

posting
was. Try to attach your previous posts at the bottom while you are at it
like you do in your emails you send.


Why do I want to do that? There is no reason to attach previous posts

if
the context of a message has been properly preserved in the thread.

Also note another pre-Saint Bill usenet convention -- interspersed
comments within the posting. This helps preserve the dialog and keep
comments with relevant context.

I'm done with this, I've got better things to do with my time. Feel free
to post whatever ridicule you choose; have a nice life.







+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough


+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+


  #189   Report Post  
Old June 23rd 05, 01:08 AM
George Ghio
 
Posts: n/a
Default



wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:41:15 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:


wmbjk wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:54:27 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:



I've lived in, and worked out of, an actual solar/wind powered home
and workshop for nearly ten years. Both have the amenities that most
people consider "normal", and together they require about 50 gallons
of backup fuel per year. A respected regular in the energy newsgroups
has publicly affirmed my descriptions of our place after visiting
here. The only fiction is from a bitter old Aussie fart who doesn't
like having to admit that his own so-called "solar powered" home in
fact gets the majority of its power from burning fuel that must be
hauled in, a situation he apparently hopes to ameliorate by
criticizing anyone who's done better.

Wayne



You can't get anything right can you. First, I am an American. Born and
raised in San Diego.

Second, I can and have outlined my energy use for for all resources.

The assumptions you make are the fiction. You do not know what your
system does. You copied a design and when it failed to work you doubled
the solar and wind input.

Ok Wayne, we will try again.

I have on several occasions posted my entire energy use. Accounting for
every fuel and source of energy, laid out by the day, week, month and year.



Apparently you believe that "accounting" for energy production is
somehow better than actually producing energy. Let's see how that
works - 1kWhr is about enough to power a contractor grade table for 40
minutes. Or it might power a homeowner-grade MIG welder for 20
minutes. Still, that level of production might be sufficient for a
putterer, except that in your case, you'd still need a five times
larger inverter, and would then have to run the generator to power the
house, having exhausted the day's production in but minutes of shop
use.

Being able to account for energy use is simply the result of knowing
what you are doing.

A "putterer" is one who claims he can use a MIG welder in both
directions. Please note Wayne that the direction to run a MIG torch is
in the direction of the gas flow. A MIG torch is not, as you seem to
think, a hot melt glue gun.

A "putterer" does not hold a ticket for "Unlimited Thickness Structuial
Steel" So what's your ticket.

My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no
connection between them.

My fuel use is, Petrol, 20 L per fortnight(14 days) This runs the Gen
set of course, also the tractor, motorcycle and chainsaw.

Yes I use wood and propane in the house. So what?

So, yes I can account for my entire energy use.

Is this important? Yes.

Why?

Because if you dont know what is going in or what is going out you don't
know what your system is doing. Which is really just not knowing what
you are doing.




I am able to do so because I: 1) designed my system to meet my needs,
and 2) monitor my system.



Doing without, and getting the bulk of your energy from fuel that must
be bought and hauled, isn't anything to be proud of for someone who
claims to be a professional. I can't count the number of amateurs I
know who've done better.


OTOH you have failed to be able to define your two days of autonomy (at
the also nondisclosed reduced level of use) let alone what your energy
use is for everything.



As I've said many times, I will *never* write anything you demand.

Tell the truth Wayne, you can't post what you don't know.


The truth is that no one in their right mind would or indeed should take
advice from a person who can not define some thing as simple as days of
autonomy.



I've answered hundreds of emails from folks who are considering making
the move to off-grid, and are curious to hear how that's worked out
from someone who's already done it. The fact that I won't play along
here under the pretense that you're an expert probably won't have much
affect on their level of interest one way or another.


God help them.



You have no idea, have never had an idea, will never have an idea what
your system uses or produces. Let alone define your entire energy use
for all applications.



My setup provides virtually all the energy to power a "normally"
equipped home. *That* is the part I find useful, not diddling with
spreadsheets to "prove" something to a quack.


Yet you claim tens years experiance.



I *have* ten years experience. You've read from a respected regular
that nothing is misrepresented. Your habit of denying the undeniable
has made you a laughing stock.

So you claim.

Nothing is represented.

Which is just
half as long as I have been off grid.



Living off a propane and generator based system with a tiny solar
supplement for all those years is only proof that you're satisfied to
do something poorly for much longer than most. Living in a hot climate
while claiming to be a master fabricator, yet failing after 20 years
to build a simple solar water heating system is pathetic. Even so, no
one would bother to call you on that feebleness except for the fact
that you repeatedly indulge in gratuitous insults.

Ah well, you see I do have a simple solar hot water system. What I do
not have yet is the parbolic system.

Hence the warning about your advice. The warning stands as valid.



What "stands" is your boneheaded insistence on making a fool of
yourself.

Now, do you have *anything* to say about off-grid workshops? No, I
didn't think so.


Off grid workshops, as I have said already, are as indivdual as the
people who use them. Asking for advice, which can only be generic at
best, is fine but in the end the workshop must meet your needs, not
Wayne's needs or George's needs.

My most commonly used tool is a drill. I use battery drills with leads
because they are readily avaliable. I have six at the moment. With an
eighteen A/hour gell cell and two battery drills I can install a 5kW
system on site in two days.

As most of my solar work is on site what good would a huge solar power
system at home do me. Can't drag that around with me can I?

As for my welder, why build a system big enough to run it for perhaps
five hours a month.

The reason I have the generator is because I bought it to build the
house. It is still serviceable and portable.

No Wayne your nonsense is just that. Nonsense.

You and I both run what we need to run.

The difference is that I do it by design and know what goes in and out.
I know I have five days autonomy at my daily load

You built a system then doubled the solar and wind to make it work and
still don't know why. You think you have two days autonomy at some airy
fairy reduced load.

The warning about your advice still stands as valid.
  #190   Report Post  
Old June 23rd 05, 02:58 AM
John P Bengi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

LOL. well said but trolls never listen. They just become more hostile and
more trolly.

"George Ghio" wrote in message
...


wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:41:15 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:


wmbjk wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:54:27 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:



I've lived in, and worked out of, an actual solar/wind powered home
and workshop for nearly ten years. Both have the amenities that most
people consider "normal", and together they require about 50 gallons
of backup fuel per year. A respected regular in the energy newsgroups
has publicly affirmed my descriptions of our place after visiting
here. The only fiction is from a bitter old Aussie fart who doesn't
like having to admit that his own so-called "solar powered" home in
fact gets the majority of its power from burning fuel that must be
hauled in, a situation he apparently hopes to ameliorate by
criticizing anyone who's done better.

Wayne



You can't get anything right can you. First, I am an American. Born and
raised in San Diego.

Second, I can and have outlined my energy use for for all resources.

The assumptions you make are the fiction. You do not know what your
system does. You copied a design and when it failed to work you doubled
the solar and wind input.

Ok Wayne, we will try again.

I have on several occasions posted my entire energy use. Accounting for
every fuel and source of energy, laid out by the day, week, month and

year.


Apparently you believe that "accounting" for energy production is
somehow better than actually producing energy. Let's see how that
works - 1kWhr is about enough to power a contractor grade table for 40
minutes. Or it might power a homeowner-grade MIG welder for 20
minutes. Still, that level of production might be sufficient for a
putterer, except that in your case, you'd still need a five times
larger inverter, and would then have to run the generator to power the
house, having exhausted the day's production in but minutes of shop
use.

Being able to account for energy use is simply the result of knowing
what you are doing.

A "putterer" is one who claims he can use a MIG welder in both
directions. Please note Wayne that the direction to run a MIG torch is
in the direction of the gas flow. A MIG torch is not, as you seem to
think, a hot melt glue gun.

A "putterer" does not hold a ticket for "Unlimited Thickness Structuial
Steel" So what's your ticket.

My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no
connection between them.

My fuel use is, Petrol, 20 L per fortnight(14 days) This runs the Gen
set of course, also the tractor, motorcycle and chainsaw.

Yes I use wood and propane in the house. So what?

So, yes I can account for my entire energy use.

Is this important? Yes.

Why?

Because if you dont know what is going in or what is going out you don't
know what your system is doing. Which is really just not knowing what
you are doing.




I am able to do so because I: 1) designed my system to meet my needs,
and 2) monitor my system.



Doing without, and getting the bulk of your energy from fuel that must
be bought and hauled, isn't anything to be proud of for someone who
claims to be a professional. I can't count the number of amateurs I
know who've done better.


OTOH you have failed to be able to define your two days of autonomy (at
the also nondisclosed reduced level of use) let alone what your energy
use is for everything.



As I've said many times, I will *never* write anything you demand.

Tell the truth Wayne, you can't post what you don't know.


The truth is that no one in their right mind would or indeed should take
advice from a person who can not define some thing as simple as days of
autonomy.



I've answered hundreds of emails from folks who are considering making
the move to off-grid, and are curious to hear how that's worked out
from someone who's already done it. The fact that I won't play along
here under the pretense that you're an expert probably won't have much
affect on their level of interest one way or another.


God help them.



You have no idea, have never had an idea, will never have an idea what
your system uses or produces. Let alone define your entire energy use
for all applications.



My setup provides virtually all the energy to power a "normally"
equipped home. *That* is the part I find useful, not diddling with
spreadsheets to "prove" something to a quack.


Yet you claim tens years experiance.



I *have* ten years experience. You've read from a respected regular
that nothing is misrepresented. Your habit of denying the undeniable
has made you a laughing stock.

So you claim.

Nothing is represented.

Which is just
half as long as I have been off grid.



Living off a propane and generator based system with a tiny solar
supplement for all those years is only proof that you're satisfied to
do something poorly for much longer than most. Living in a hot climate
while claiming to be a master fabricator, yet failing after 20 years
to build a simple solar water heating system is pathetic. Even so, no
one would bother to call you on that feebleness except for the fact
that you repeatedly indulge in gratuitous insults.

Ah well, you see I do have a simple solar hot water system. What I do
not have yet is the parbolic system.

Hence the warning about your advice. The warning stands as valid.



What "stands" is your boneheaded insistence on making a fool of
yourself.

Now, do you have *anything* to say about off-grid workshops? No, I
didn't think so.


Off grid workshops, as I have said already, are as indivdual as the
people who use them. Asking for advice, which can only be generic at
best, is fine but in the end the workshop must meet your needs, not
Wayne's needs or George's needs.

My most commonly used tool is a drill. I use battery drills with leads
because they are readily avaliable. I have six at the moment. With an
eighteen A/hour gell cell and two battery drills I can install a 5kW
system on site in two days.

As most of my solar work is on site what good would a huge solar power
system at home do me. Can't drag that around with me can I?

As for my welder, why build a system big enough to run it for perhaps
five hours a month.

The reason I have the generator is because I bought it to build the
house. It is still serviceable and portable.

No Wayne your nonsense is just that. Nonsense.

You and I both run what we need to run.

The difference is that I do it by design and know what goes in and out.
I know I have five days autonomy at my daily load

You built a system then doubled the solar and wind to make it work and
still don't know why. You think you have two days autonomy at some airy
fairy reduced load.

The warning about your advice still stands as valid.





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