Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
R. Zimmerman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

If you look around the neck of the Oxy cylinder you will see the dates of
the tests done every five years. If the latest date is more than five years
it likely will require testing and inspection.
Some people have been known to steel tanks off construction sites. By
not filling tanks from unknown sources it limits the incentive to steal
tanks. Larger tanks often are leased rather than sold outright. I suspect
that your tanks were leased rather than sold to your grandfather.
Randy

"Don" wrote in message
m...
My grandfather generously gave me some extra large welding tanks to
replace my little tanks. I called around here and most places said
that I needed to have an origional receipt of sale before they would
fill them. Anyone know why this is and how to get around it. I am not
sure where they origionally came from but my grandpa has had them for
years. I am sure they are not stolen or anything. All I am going to do
is use them at home for farm projects.

The place I trade my small tanks in for had to have the origional sale
from the tank manufacturer. Another place said I could just make up a
receipt from my grandpa and they would have to send the tanks out to
get refilled. (They do not exchange tanks).

What would they do if the tank is expired and is there a way I can
tell on the tank the expiration date?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


  #2   Report Post  
David A. Webb
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

First, DO NOT take your tank anywhere until you find someone who you
are sure won't try to confiscate them.

Even though you are sure the tanks are not stolen, they might not be
his. A lot of places will only lease tanks. My opinion is that
private individuals should avoid these places at all cost.

I have tanks that have not been exchanged for 8 years, but that do get
used a few times a year. It would suck to have to pay rent when I'm
not using them very much.

Odds are, if you take the tank to a place that only leases, they will
turn you away. If the tanks came from them, they will confiscate
them.

A place that is pretty big here in the midwest is Airgas. They sell
and lease tanks, and I own several. Their policy is they will
exchange or fill any tank, as long as it is one of "theirs". They
will not fill or exchange tanks that have a label from anyone else,
unless it is a company that is out of business.

I have come across tanks that were sold by local companies that have
gone out of business. Airgas will exchange those tanks, because
nobody can prove if they were stolen or not.

If I walk into Airgas with an Airgas tank that I have not previously
owned, they will want to see a receipt. They will know I didn't buy
it from them, because it would be in their records. If I produce a
receipt, it better have a name on it of someone they have in their
records, else they might consider the tanks stolen.

NONE of the places I am familiar with sell tanks of "spaciality gas".
IE, if you walk in with a tank of high purity gas, or a special mix,
they will try to confiscate it because you didn't buy it. It was
probably stolen from a manufacturing shop or lab.

You have the advantage in that your tanks are probably beyond their
test date limit. I believe tanks are supposed to be tested and
stamped every 10 years. If the last stamp on your tanks is before
1993, you have evidence to support your claim that they have been in
your grandfather's possession for a while. Actually, the only proof
is the number of years beyond the 10 years from the last date.

Anyway, there should be a label on the tank indicating where it came
from. If that place is still in business, call them. They should
have records on your grandfather's purchase. You might find out they
were actually leased. That happened to me once. I bought some tanks,
only to find out later they were leased to the guy I bought them from.
If that happens, the tanks are basically worthless.

If the tanks are beyond their test date, it isn't a big deal. You
just pay an extra fee to have them re-tested. Might be $20 or $30.
But it is good for 10 years.
If you pay that fee, and have your tanks exchanged, make sure they
give you a tank that has recently been tested. It would suck to pay
the fee, and them give you a tank that is about to expire.

I would call all of the local gas suppliers, tell them exactly what
you have and who's label is on the tank. Explain to them that you
inherited them, and you have a receipt. (like you said, you can
basically write your own receipt as long as your grandfather knows
about it) Tell them you would like to set up an account in which you
still own the tanks, but can exchange them as needed.

I have been seeing that many places are now starting to charge
"maintenance fees" on top of the hydro-test fees. So far I have
managed to have them waived, because these annual fees are for things
like valve replacement, tank cleaning/painting, etc. My argument is
that I shouldn't have to pay because the tank I've had for 8 years
(for example) has not had a new valve in at least 8 years. Why pay an
annual fee for work that isn't being done. Airgas agrees, and waive
the fee. For businesses that exchange tanks frequently, they have to
pay. About half of the tanks I see from Airgas anymore have new
valves, and a fresh coat of paint. So at least the money is actually
being used for it's intended purpose. (unlike most taxes)

Hope this helps.

Dave






On 8 Aug 2003 05:41:31 -0700, (Don) wrote:

My grandfather generously gave me some extra large welding tanks to
replace my little tanks. I called around here and most places said
that I needed to have an origional receipt of sale before they would
fill them. Anyone know why this is and how to get around it. I am not
sure where they origionally came from but my grandpa has had them for
years. I am sure they are not stolen or anything. All I am going to do
is use them at home for farm projects.

The place I trade my small tanks in for had to have the origional sale
from the tank manufacturer. Another place said I could just make up a
receipt from my grandpa and they would have to send the tanks out to
get refilled. (They do not exchange tanks).

What would they do if the tank is expired and is there a way I can
tell on the tank the expiration date?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


  #3   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

On 8 Aug 2003 05:41:31 -0700, (Don) wrote:

My grandfather generously gave me some extra large welding tanks to
replace my little tanks. I called around here and most places said
that I needed to have an origional receipt of sale before they would
fill them. Anyone know why this is and how to get around it. I am not
sure where they origionally came from but my grandpa has had them for
years. I am sure they are not stolen or anything. All I am going to do
is use them at home for farm projects.

The place I trade my small tanks in for had to have the origional sale
from the tank manufacturer. Another place said I could just make up a
receipt from my grandpa and they would have to send the tanks out to
get refilled. (They do not exchange tanks).

What would they do if the tank is expired and is there a way I can
tell on the tank the expiration date?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Greetings Don,
I don't know where you are but here in the seattle area I mostly use
Central Welding for my tanks. The tanks that I have are "owner
bottles". These are sizes that Central Welding and Airgas only sell,
and do not lease. So maybe you can get the size of your bottles,
(tanks, cylinders, etc.) from the stampings on the bottles and find
out if they are "owner" sizes. When re-filling Central offers two
options. You can have your bottle filled, but may have to wait days,
and pay for the hydro test. Or, you can exchange your bottle for one
the same size on the spot and they hydro the bottle when it needs it
at no charge to you. BTW, even though I started out using Central
Welding I have had bottles filled (exchanged actually) at Airgas that
came from Central and then had those bottles from Airgas filled at
Central. Being "owner" bottles it makes no difference.
Cheers,
Eric
  #4   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:08:40 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:

If you look around the neck of the Oxy cylinder you will see the dates of
the tests done every five years. If the latest date is more than five years
it likely will require testing and inspection.
Some people have been known to steel tanks off construction sites. By
not filling tanks from unknown sources it limits the incentive to steal
tanks. Larger tanks often are leased rather than sold outright. I suspect
that your tanks were leased rather than sold to your grandfather.
Randy

Depends a great deal on where you live. My tanks came from a
construction company going out of business, but Ive never needed a
receipt to exchange them for filled ones. No one in my area ever worries
about whom owns what. The original two tanks went into the system 15 yrs
ago, and god only knows where they are now..shrug. Once a year or so, I
simply take em down, tell them I need an exchange and they roll what I
brought in, to the empty rack, and roll me out one from the full cage. I
pay, and go away. Shrug

I asked once upon a time, when I thought I was going to move out of the
area, and the guys behind the counter said if I really wanted one, they
would give me an ownership receipt and freshly hydro'ed bottles G

Gunner

"Don" wrote in message
om...
My grandfather generously gave me some extra large welding tanks to
replace my little tanks. I called around here and most places said
that I needed to have an origional receipt of sale before they would
fill them. Anyone know why this is and how to get around it. I am not
sure where they origionally came from but my grandpa has had them for
years. I am sure they are not stolen or anything. All I am going to do
is use them at home for farm projects.

The place I trade my small tanks in for had to have the origional sale
from the tank manufacturer. Another place said I could just make up a
receipt from my grandpa and they would have to send the tanks out to
get refilled. (They do not exchange tanks).

What would they do if the tank is expired and is there a way I can
tell on the tank the expiration date?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin
  #5   Report Post  
Grant Erwin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

I bought a set of tanks back in the '80s. I've swapped them many times.
Roll 'em up, roll back the new ones. You buy once but get new tanks all
the time. I've taken in tanks 10 years past the pull date and the guys
never even look.

I suggest to the original poster that you talk to some other guys who
have tanks, or else go hang out by the tank dock at a few of your local
welding stores and watch how they do it. In my area, a muscle-y 16YO
comes out to do the grunt work, and never ever asks a question. Might
scratch sometimes .. :-)

Grant

Gunner wrote:

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:08:40 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:


If you look around the neck of the Oxy cylinder you will see the dates of
the tests done every five years. If the latest date is more than five years
it likely will require testing and inspection.
Some people have been known to steel tanks off construction sites. By
not filling tanks from unknown sources it limits the incentive to steal
tanks. Larger tanks often are leased rather than sold outright. I suspect
that your tanks were leased rather than sold to your grandfather.
Randy


Depends a great deal on where you live. My tanks came from a
construction company going out of business, but Ive never needed a
receipt to exchange them for filled ones. No one in my area ever worries
about whom owns what. The original two tanks went into the system 15 yrs
ago, and god only knows where they are now..shrug. Once a year or so, I
simply take em down, tell them I need an exchange and they roll what I
brought in, to the empty rack, and roll me out one from the full cage. I
pay, and go away. Shrug

I asked once upon a time, when I thought I was going to move out of the
area, and the guys behind the counter said if I really wanted one, they
would give me an ownership receipt and freshly hydro'ed bottles G

Gunner


"Don" wrote in message
. com...
My grandfather generously gave me some extra large welding tanks to
replace my little tanks. I called around here and most places said
that I needed to have an origional receipt of sale before they would
fill them. Anyone know why this is and how to get around it. I am not
sure where they origionally came from but my grandpa has had them for
years. I am sure they are not stolen or anything. All I am going to do
is use them at home for farm projects.

The place I trade my small tanks in for had to have the origional sale


from the tank manufacturer. Another place said I could just make up a


receipt from my grandpa and they would have to send the tanks out to
get refilled. (They do not exchange tanks).

What would they do if the tank is expired and is there a way I can
tell on the tank the expiration date?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!



"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin




  #7   Report Post  
David A. Webb
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 07:33:53 -0700, Eric R Snow
wrote:

Greetings Don,
I don't know where you are but here in the seattle area I mostly use
Central Welding for my tanks. The tanks that I have are "owner
bottles". These are sizes that Central Welding and Airgas only sell,
and do not lease. So maybe you can get the size of your bottles,
(tanks, cylinders, etc.) from the stampings on the bottles and find
out if they are "owner" sizes. When re-filling Central offers two
options. You can have your bottle filled, but may have to wait days,
and pay for the hydro test. Or, you can exchange your bottle for one
the same size on the spot and they hydro the bottle when it needs it
at no charge to you. BTW, even though I started out using Central
Welding I have had bottles filled (exchanged actually) at Airgas that
came from Central and then had those bottles from Airgas filled at
Central. Being "owner" bottles it makes no difference.
Cheers,
Eric


That must vary from vendor to vendor too.

The most common size for shade-tree mechanics is probably the
125 cylinders. (I assume that means 125 cubic feet)
Big enough to get the job done, small enough that just about anyone
can pick them up and load them into the back of a pickup.

But I also own a few 200, and even a couple of 300 cylinders.

I think the 300 cylinders are as big as they get for spun steel tanks.
(at least I haven't seen any bigger) They are bigger than any of the
oxygen tanks I've seen the contractors use that are working on the
local bridges.

All listed as ownership, at Airgas.

I almost got my hands on six 300 tanks certified for 6000psi from a
local fire department. They were going to be free to me, until
another fire department found out they were available. errrr

Dave
  #8   Report Post  
Leo Lichtman
 
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Default Welding tank refills

Strange. My experience here in the SF Bay Area is quite different. When I
decided to invest in a pair of tanks, I purchased a 99 year lease. Whenever
one of these tanks needs refilling, I take it in and exchange it for a full
one. They don't even look at the expiration date. If a tank comes up for
retest, the cost is covered in the original lease price. If the tank were
to fail retest, I would not know it--that is also covered in the original
lease price. I was told at the time I leased them that the 99 years is
equivalent to "forever."

If I were to buy some tanks outright, from a store or a private party, I
would probably have to wait to have them sent out for refill, and I would
pay for retest every five years. If a tank failed retest, I would be out
the entire value of the tank.

IMO, leasing is the only way to go.


  #9   Report Post  
Jim Stewart
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

Leo Lichtman wrote:

Strange. My experience here in the SF Bay Area is quite different. When I
decided to invest in a pair of tanks, I purchased a 99 year lease. Whenever
one of these tanks needs refilling, I take it in and exchange it for a full
one. They don't even look at the expiration date. If a tank comes up for
retest, the cost is covered in the original lease price. If the tank were
to fail retest, I would not know it--that is also covered in the original
lease price. I was told at the time I leased them that the 99 years is
equivalent to "forever."

If I were to buy some tanks outright, from a store or a private party, I
would probably have to wait to have them sent out for refill, and I would
pay for retest every five years. If a tank failed retest, I would be out
the entire value of the tank.

IMO, leasing is the only way to go.


I purchased tanks outright and I've always exchanged them and
never had anyone look at the hydro date. I'm not clear on
what's the difference. When I bought them the guy said that
they were just like returnable Coke bottles, just bring them
in, leave them on the dock, and pick up filled ones.

I first bought mine in Berkeley about 15 years ago and I've
swapped them out at 4 different places with no problems.

The sweetest deal was when my next-door neighbor worked at
a major gas filling plant. I'd just leave a empty in his
driveway and find a filled bottle in mine the next day (:



  #10   Report Post  
David A. Webb
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:13:30 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

If I were to buy some tanks outright, from a store or a private party, I
would probably have to wait to have them sent out for refill, and I would
pay for retest every five years. If a tank failed retest, I would be out
the entire value of the tank.

IMO, leasing is the only way to go.


Do you have monthly or yearly fees?
Or maintenance fees?
What did your lease cost, compared to buying a tank outright?

If/when I exchange a tank that is out of it's test date, I pay the
money to have it tested. Then it is rolled over to a bunch of other
tanks that need to be retested. And they roll a filled tank to me.

Once I leave, they don't know (or seem to care) who brought in what
tank for retesting. I doubt there are enough of them that fail to
ever care.

I'm amazed at how many vendor to vendor, and location to location
differences there are.

Dave



  #11   Report Post  
John T. McCracken
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills


"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...
Strange. My experience here in the SF Bay Area is quite different. When

I
decided to invest in a pair of tanks, I purchased a 99 year lease.

Whenever
one of these tanks needs refilling, I take it in and exchange it for a

full
one. They don't even look at the expiration date. If a tank comes up for
retest, the cost is covered in the original lease price. If the tank were
to fail retest, I would not know it--that is also covered in the original
lease price. I was told at the time I leased them that the 99 years is
equivalent to "forever."

If I were to buy some tanks outright, from a store or a private party, I
would probably have to wait to have them sent out for refill, and I would
pay for retest every five years. If a tank failed retest, I would be out
the entire value of the tank.


I have a small variety of owner bottles, and being as I work all over the
country, I swap bottles in a lot of states and have commercial accounts at
some places and not at others.
I have never had one lick of problem swapping an owner bottle, no one has
ever looked at the stamp, no one has ever said I would have to wait while
they had my cyl. refilled, and I have never paid for a retest ( I know, the
price is integrated into the price of gas). I simply give them the empties,
they give me full ones, and ask what else I'll be needing. Granted, I
haven't worked much east of the Missippi for a long time but many of my
friends have and do, with the same results as mine. A lease is a money loser
for my little company. And in my opinion, it's a good way to tie you down to
99 years of refills at their store, no wonder they tell hobby types that
they can't buy that bottle.
Unscrupulous welding supplies blow a lot of smoke up the hobby welders
skirt.

JTMcC.



IMO, leasing is the only way to go.




  #12   Report Post  
David A. Webb
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:09:51 GMT, "John T. McCracken"
wrote:


I have a small variety of owner bottles, and being as I work all over the
country, I swap bottles in a lot of states and have commercial accounts at
some places and not at others.
I have never had one lick of problem swapping an owner bottle, no one has
ever looked at the stamp, no one has ever said I would have to wait while
they had my cyl. refilled, and I have never paid for a retest ( I know, the
price is integrated into the price of gas). I simply give them the empties,
they give me full ones, and ask what else I'll be needing. Granted, I
haven't worked much east of the Missippi for a long time but many of my
friends have and do, with the same results as mine. A lease is a money loser
for my little company. And in my opinion, it's a good way to tie you down to
99 years of refills at their store, no wonder they tell hobby types that
they can't buy that bottle.
Unscrupulous welding supplies blow a lot of smoke up the hobby welders
skirt.

JTMcC.




Ain't that the truth.

Every month my boss comes to me with an itemized invoice from our gas
supplier. It is about $20 per month per tank in rent.

And every month I tell my boss the business would come out ahead if it
bought the tanks, because the savings over the monthly lease price
would pay for a about a tank a month. (we have 15 tanks or so)

Dave


  #13   Report Post  
keith bowers
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

David A. Webb wrote:

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:09:51 GMT, "John T. McCracken"
wrote:


I have a small variety of owner bottles, and being as I work all over the
country, I swap bottles in a lot of states and have commercial accounts at
some places and not at others.
I have never had one lick of problem swapping an owner bottle, no one has
ever looked at the stamp, no one has ever said I would have to wait while
they had my cyl. refilled, and I have never paid for a retest ( I know,
the price is integrated into the price of gas). I simply give them the
empties, they give me full ones, and ask what else I'll be needing.
Granted, I haven't worked much east of the Missippi for a long time but
many of my friends have and do, with the same results as mine. A lease is
a money loser for my little company. And in my opinion, it's a good way to
tie you down to 99 years of refills at their store, no wonder they tell
hobby types that they can't buy that bottle.
Unscrupulous welding supplies blow a lot of smoke up the hobby welders
skirt.

JTMcC.




Ain't that the truth.

Every month my boss comes to me with an itemized invoice from our gas
supplier. It is about $20 per month per tank in rent.

And every month I tell my boss the business would come out ahead if it
bought the tanks, because the savings over the monthly lease price
would pay for a about a tank a month. (we have 15 tanks or so)

Dave

It may be a tax thing. Lease can be expensed in the current year. Purchase
may be capitalized andhave to be amortized over the life of the equipment.
Depends on where the breakboint is for your company. Over the years I've
seen the crossover between $100 and $2000.
--
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC
  #14   Report Post  
Jim Stewart
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

keith bowers wrote:
David A. Webb wrote:


On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:09:51 GMT, "John T. McCracken"
wrote:


I have a small variety of owner bottles, and being as I work all over the
country, I swap bottles in a lot of states and have commercial accounts at
some places and not at others.
I have never had one lick of problem swapping an owner bottle, no one has
ever looked at the stamp, no one has ever said I would have to wait while
they had my cyl. refilled, and I have never paid for a retest ( I know,
the price is integrated into the price of gas). I simply give them the
empties, they give me full ones, and ask what else I'll be needing.
Granted, I haven't worked much east of the Missippi for a long time but
many of my friends have and do, with the same results as mine. A lease is
a money loser for my little company. And in my opinion, it's a good way to
tie you down to 99 years of refills at their store, no wonder they tell
hobby types that they can't buy that bottle.
Unscrupulous welding supplies blow a lot of smoke up the hobby welders
skirt.

JTMcC.




Ain't that the truth.

Every month my boss comes to me with an itemized invoice from our gas
supplier. It is about $20 per month per tank in rent.

And every month I tell my boss the business would come out ahead if it
bought the tanks, because the savings over the monthly lease price
would pay for a about a tank a month. (we have 15 tanks or so)

Dave


It may be a tax thing. Lease can be expensed in the current year. Purchase
may be capitalized andhave to be amortized over the life of the equipment.
Depends on where the breakboint is for your company. Over the years I've
seen the crossover between $100 and $2000.


And it could just be laziness. I was on the board of directors
of a public agency (no tax issues at all) and I got mad at
approving the $20 check each month too.

  #15   Report Post  
John T. McCracken
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills


"keith bowers" wrote in message
...
David A. Webb wrote:

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:09:51 GMT, "John T. McCracken"
wrote:


I have a small variety of owner bottles, and being as I work all over

the
country, I swap bottles in a lot of states and have commercial accounts

at
some places and not at others.
I have never had one lick of problem swapping an owner bottle, no one

has
ever looked at the stamp, no one has ever said I would have to wait

while
they had my cyl. refilled, and I have never paid for a retest ( I know,
the price is integrated into the price of gas). I simply give them the
empties, they give me full ones, and ask what else I'll be needing.
Granted, I haven't worked much east of the Missippi for a long time but
many of my friends have and do, with the same results as mine. A lease

is
a money loser for my little company. And in my opinion, it's a good way

to
tie you down to 99 years of refills at their store, no wonder they tell
hobby types that they can't buy that bottle.
Unscrupulous welding supplies blow a lot of smoke up the hobby welders
skirt.

JTMcC.




Ain't that the truth.

Every month my boss comes to me with an itemized invoice from our gas
supplier. It is about $20 per month per tank in rent.

And every month I tell my boss the business would come out ahead if it
bought the tanks, because the savings over the monthly lease price
would pay for a about a tank a month. (we have 15 tanks or so)

Dave

It may be a tax thing. Lease can be expensed in the current year. Purchase
may be capitalized andhave to be amortized over the life of the equipment.
Depends on where the breakboint is for your company. Over the years I've
seen the crossover between $100 and $2000.
--
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC


No advantage for me, even at a cost savings. My cylinders may be swapped at
Praxair in Arizona this week, at Airgas in Nevada next week and at a Mom &
Pop in a little town in Kansas the following week. Owner bottles are the
only way to go for me.
I'm not to sure that a bottle is amortized??? Maybe you understand this
better than I, but even so it could be a sec. 179 deduction I suppose. This
is where the pro tax folks come in. I have never amortized a bottle, but I
may have been wrong up to now, I have survived audits however.

JTMcC.






  #16   Report Post  
keith bowers
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

Jim Stewart wrote:

keith bowers wrote:
David A. Webb wrote:


On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:09:51 GMT, "John T. McCracken"
wrote:


I have a small variety of owner bottles, and being as I work all over
the country, I swap bottles in a lot of states and have commercial
accounts at some places and not at others.
I have never had one lick of problem swapping an owner bottle, no one
has ever looked at the stamp, no one has ever said I would have to wait
while they had my cyl. refilled, and I have never paid for a retest ( I
know, the price is integrated into the price of gas). I simply give them
the empties, they give me full ones, and ask what else I'll be needing.
Granted, I haven't worked much east of the Missippi for a long time but
many of my friends have and do, with the same results as mine. A lease
is a money loser for my little company. And in my opinion, it's a good
way to tie you down to 99 years of refills at their store, no wonder
they tell hobby types that they can't buy that bottle.
Unscrupulous welding supplies blow a lot of smoke up the hobby welders
skirt.

JTMcC.



Ain't that the truth.

Every month my boss comes to me with an itemized invoice from our gas
supplier. It is about $20 per month per tank in rent.

And every month I tell my boss the business would come out ahead if it
bought the tanks, because the savings over the monthly lease price
would pay for a about a tank a month. (we have 15 tanks or so)

Dave


It may be a tax thing. Lease can be expensed in the current year.
Purchase may be capitalized andhave to be amortized over the life of the
equipment. Depends on where the breakboint is for your company. Over the
years I've seen the crossover between $100 and $2000.


And it could just be laziness. I was on the board of directors
of a public agency (no tax issues at all) and I got mad at
approving the $20 check each month too.

No more need be said g.
--
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC
  #17   Report Post  
Leo Lichtman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills


"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:13:30 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

If I were to buy some tanks outright, from a store or a private party, I
would probably have to wait to have them sent out for refill, and I would
pay for retest every five years. If a tank failed retest, I would be out
the entire value of the tank.

IMO, leasing is the only way to go.


Do you have monthly or yearly fees?

^^^^^^^^^^^^
When I first started welding, I bought the gas, and was allowed one month's
free demurage with each refill. After that, it was something like 8 cents a
day. I used enough gas that I never ran over a month, until I got sick, and
the tanks sat there for a couple of months. That was when I decided to go
for the lease.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Or maintenance fees? What did your lease cost, compared to buying a tank
outright?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
No fees at all, ever, in all the years I have been doing this. At the place
I got my tamks, I am don't think they had tanks for outright sale. The
lease was around $100, but that was 40 years ago--I'm sure it is much higher
now.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If/when I exchange a tank that is out of it's test date, I pay the money to
have it tested
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is definitely different from my contract. I have never paid for a
retest.


  #18   Report Post  
Roy Jenson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

I live in Minnesota, needed to get a set of tanks for my hobby
style fabrication work. I went shopping at all the major dealers
to see what the story was. And the stories were all over the map.

Most dealers had radically different plans depending on which
tank you talked about. Small tanks were purchse only, some were
lease only, some were rent only (demurage charge), and some had
options. Even more confusing, different dealers had different
policies for a given size of tank.

I did not find any dealers that would swap an owner tank, you had
to drop it off, get it filled, pick it up 2 days later. Plus you
were responsible for the testing when the date came up. They also
tended to hassle you if you brought in some "olde tanks from my
uncle" They would swap out an owned tank if it had their stamp
on it though.

Leases were the same set of weird deals. One place had a 5 year
lease for $100+ per tank. At the end of 5 years, you had to pay
another $100. Or just slightly less than $5 a month per tank. No
great deal there!

I finally wound up with a 2 year, renewable lease with a $100+
REFUNDABLE deposit on the 122/125 cu ft tanks. I have to bring
them back to the same place, they swap out the tanks, they do the
testing. Every two years they send me a form, do I want to renew?
Sure, no charge. The nice thing is that when I want to shut down
the shop, I just bring the tanks back and get my deposit back. No
need to try to sell them to someone else and make them go through
the hassle of owned tanks. I did this the last time I moved my
shop, sure was nice to not have to deal with trying to bring the
tanks with me.

Cheers.

Don wrote:

My grandfather generously gave me some extra large welding tanks to
replace my little tanks. I called around here and most places said
that I needed to have an origional receipt of sale before they would
fill them. Anyone know why this is and how to get around it. I am not
sure where they origionally came from but my grandpa has had them for
years. I am sure they are not stolen or anything. All I am going to do
is use them at home for farm projects.

The place I trade my small tanks in for had to have the origional sale
from the tank manufacturer. Another place said I could just make up a
receipt from my grandpa and they would have to send the tanks out to
get refilled. (They do not exchange tanks).

What would they do if the tank is expired and is there a way I can
tell on the tank the expiration date?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

  #19   Report Post  
Cass
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

YOU MEAN DEMMURAGE!

Now, Lichtman, if you are smart, you will say something like: "Yes, you are
right. I misspelled the word". If you are as dumb as you have presented
yourself, you will say something like: "No, I mean 'demurage".

Uh-oh, you think you see a 'shot' from that? Wrong, kid, as anyone would
know, you simply misspelled "demmurage" and only petty folks would make an
issue from it. On the other hand, 'dice' was not misspelled and it was used
in proper context.

See how this works? You take a swing when you had no reason to and you get
a bigger swing back.

Is this pettiness in action? YOU BET. I could simply leave it alone and so
doing, ensure that you would jump on the next guy when you wanted to look
superior. Maybe this is not a price for you to pay but you will think about
it -unless you are a true knuckle-dragger.

Cass


"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:13:30 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

If I were to buy some tanks outright, from a store or a private party,

I
would probably have to wait to have them sent out for refill, and I

would
pay for retest every five years. If a tank failed retest, I would be

out
the entire value of the tank.

IMO, leasing is the only way to go.


Do you have monthly or yearly fees?

^^^^^^^^^^^^
When I first started welding, I bought the gas, and was allowed one

month's
free demurage with each refill. After that, it was something like 8 cents

a
day. I used enough gas that I never ran over a month, until I got sick,

and
the tanks sat there for a couple of months. That was when I decided to go
for the lease.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Or maintenance fees? What did your lease cost, compared to buying a tank
outright?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
No fees at all, ever, in all the years I have been doing this. At the

place
I got my tamks, I am don't think they had tanks for outright sale. The
lease was around $100, but that was 40 years ago--I'm sure it is much

higher
now.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If/when I exchange a tank that is out of it's test date, I pay the money

to
have it tested
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is definitely different from my contract. I have never paid for a
retest.




  #20   Report Post  
Steve Worcester
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

demurrage

At least check with www.dictionary.com before judgment

--
Steve Worcester




"Cass" wrote in message
...
YOU MEAN DEMMURAGE!

Now, Lichtman, if you are smart, you will say something like: "Yes, you

are
right. I misspelled the word". If you are as dumb as you have presented
yourself, you will say something like: "No, I mean 'demurage".

Uh-oh, you think you see a 'shot' from that? Wrong, kid, as anyone would
know, you simply misspelled "demmurage" and only petty folks would make an
issue from it. On the other hand, 'dice' was not misspelled and it was

used
in proper context.

See how this works? You take a swing when you had no reason to and you

get
a bigger swing back.

Is this pettiness in action? YOU BET. I could simply leave it alone and

so
doing, ensure that you would jump on the next guy when you wanted to look
superior. Maybe this is not a price for you to pay but you will think

about
it -unless you are a true knuckle-dragger.

Cass


"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:13:30 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

If I were to buy some tanks outright, from a store or a private

party,
I
would probably have to wait to have them sent out for refill, and I

would
pay for retest every five years. If a tank failed retest, I would be

out
the entire value of the tank.

IMO, leasing is the only way to go.


Do you have monthly or yearly fees?

^^^^^^^^^^^^
When I first started welding, I bought the gas, and was allowed one

month's
free demurage with each refill. After that, it was something like 8

cents
a
day. I used enough gas that I never ran over a month, until I got sick,

and
the tanks sat there for a couple of months. That was when I decided to

go
for the lease.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Or maintenance fees? What did your lease cost, compared to buying a

tank
outright?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
No fees at all, ever, in all the years I have been doing this. At the

place
I got my tamks, I am don't think they had tanks for outright sale. The
lease was around $100, but that was 40 years ago--I'm sure it is much

higher
now.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If/when I exchange a tank that is out of it's test date, I pay the

money
to
have it tested
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is definitely different from my contract. I have never paid for a
retest.








  #21   Report Post  
mrbonaparte
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

LOL



"Steve Worcester" wrote in message
...
demurrage

At least check with www.dictionary.com before judgment

--
Steve Worcester




"Cass" wrote in

message
...
YOU MEAN DEMMURAGE!

Now, Lichtman, if you are smart, you will say something like: "Yes, you

are
right. I misspelled the word". If you are as dumb as you have

presented
yourself, you will say something like: "No, I mean 'demurage".

Uh-oh, you think you see a 'shot' from that? Wrong, kid, as anyone

would
know, you simply misspelled "demmurage" and only petty folks would make

an
issue from it. On the other hand, 'dice' was not misspelled and it was

used
in proper context.

See how this works? You take a swing when you had no reason to and you

get
a bigger swing back.

Is this pettiness in action? YOU BET. I could simply leave it alone

and
so
doing, ensure that you would jump on the next guy when you wanted to

look
superior. Maybe this is not a price for you to pay but you will think

about
it -unless you are a true knuckle-dragger.

Cass


"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:13:30 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

If I were to buy some tanks outright, from a store or a private

party,
I
would probably have to wait to have them sent out for refill, and I

would
pay for retest every five years. If a tank failed retest, I would

be
out
the entire value of the tank.

IMO, leasing is the only way to go.


Do you have monthly or yearly fees?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
When I first started welding, I bought the gas, and was allowed one

month's
free demurage with each refill. After that, it was something like 8

cents
a
day. I used enough gas that I never ran over a month, until I got

sick,
and
the tanks sat there for a couple of months. That was when I decided

to
go
for the lease.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Or maintenance fees? What did your lease cost, compared to buying a

tank
outright?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
No fees at all, ever, in all the years I have been doing this. At the

place
I got my tamks, I am don't think they had tanks for outright sale.

The
lease was around $100, but that was 40 years ago--I'm sure it is much

higher
now.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If/when I exchange a tank that is out of it's test date, I pay the

money
to
have it tested
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is definitely different from my contract. I have never paid for

a
retest.








  #22   Report Post  
Cass
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

Doggone it! You are right. I did check before I gave him the 'lesson'. A
typo got me.

Thanks

Cass


"Steve Worcester" wrote in message
...
demurrage

At least check with www.dictionary.com before judgment

--
Steve Worcester




"Cass" wrote in

message
...
YOU MEAN DEMMURAGE!

Now, Lichtman, if you are smart, you will say something like: "Yes, you

are
right. I misspelled the word". If you are as dumb as you have

presented
yourself, you will say something like: "No, I mean 'demurage".

Uh-oh, you think you see a 'shot' from that? Wrong, kid, as anyone

would
know, you simply misspelled "demmurage" and only petty folks would make

an
issue from it. On the other hand, 'dice' was not misspelled and it was

used
in proper context.

See how this works? You take a swing when you had no reason to and you

get
a bigger swing back.

Is this pettiness in action? YOU BET. I could simply leave it alone

and
so
doing, ensure that you would jump on the next guy when you wanted to

look
superior. Maybe this is not a price for you to pay but you will think

about
it -unless you are a true knuckle-dragger.

Cass


"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:13:30 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

If I were to buy some tanks outright, from a store or a private

party,
I
would probably have to wait to have them sent out for refill, and I

would
pay for retest every five years. If a tank failed retest, I would

be
out
the entire value of the tank.

IMO, leasing is the only way to go.


Do you have monthly or yearly fees?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
When I first started welding, I bought the gas, and was allowed one

month's
free demurage with each refill. After that, it was something like 8

cents
a
day. I used enough gas that I never ran over a month, until I got

sick,
and
the tanks sat there for a couple of months. That was when I decided

to
go
for the lease.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Or maintenance fees? What did your lease cost, compared to buying a

tank
outright?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
No fees at all, ever, in all the years I have been doing this. At the

place
I got my tamks, I am don't think they had tanks for outright sale.

The
lease was around $100, but that was 40 years ago--I'm sure it is much

higher
now.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If/when I exchange a tank that is out of it's test date, I pay the

money
to
have it tested
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is definitely different from my contract. I have never paid for

a
retest.








  #23   Report Post  
Steve Rayner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

It's over 10 years since I bought mine. The company is long gone. They can
still be exchanged for the price of the refill.

Steve Rayner.


"John T. McCracken" wrote in message
...

"keith bowers" wrote in message
...
David A. Webb wrote:

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:09:51 GMT, "John T. McCracken"
wrote:


I have a small variety of owner bottles, and being as I work all over

the
country, I swap bottles in a lot of states and have commercial

accounts
at
some places and not at others.
I have never had one lick of problem swapping an owner bottle, no one

has
ever looked at the stamp, no one has ever said I would have to wait

while
they had my cyl. refilled, and I have never paid for a retest ( I

know,
the price is integrated into the price of gas). I simply give them the
empties, they give me full ones, and ask what else I'll be needing.
Granted, I haven't worked much east of the Missippi for a long time

but
many of my friends have and do, with the same results as mine. A lease

is
a money loser for my little company. And in my opinion, it's a good

way
to
tie you down to 99 years of refills at their store, no wonder they

tell
hobby types that they can't buy that bottle.
Unscrupulous welding supplies blow a lot of smoke up the hobby welders
skirt.

JTMcC.



Ain't that the truth.

Every month my boss comes to me with an itemized invoice from our gas
supplier. It is about $20 per month per tank in rent.

And every month I tell my boss the business would come out ahead if it
bought the tanks, because the savings over the monthly lease price
would pay for a about a tank a month. (we have 15 tanks or so)

Dave

It may be a tax thing. Lease can be expensed in the current year.

Purchase
may be capitalized andhave to be amortized over the life of the

equipment.
Depends on where the breakboint is for your company. Over the years I've
seen the crossover between $100 and $2000.
--
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC


No advantage for me, even at a cost savings. My cylinders may be swapped

at
Praxair in Arizona this week, at Airgas in Nevada next week and at a Mom &
Pop in a little town in Kansas the following week. Owner bottles are the
only way to go for me.
I'm not to sure that a bottle is amortized??? Maybe you understand this
better than I, but even so it could be a sec. 179 deduction I suppose.

This
is where the pro tax folks come in. I have never amortized a bottle, but I
may have been wrong up to now, I have survived audits however.

JTMcC.






  #24   Report Post  
Tim Williams
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

"Cass" wrote in message
...
Doggone it! You are right. I did check before I gave him the 'lesson'.

A
typo got me.


Heh heh heh heh heh.

Tim

--
In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!"
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms


  #25   Report Post  
Cass
 
Posts: n/a
Default Welding tank refills

Timmy,

I know that you are too thick to understand that my typo does not betray the
'lesson', kiddo. It doesn't.

Cass


"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Cass" wrote in

message
...
Doggone it! You are right. I did check before I gave him the 'lesson'.

A
typo got me.


Heh heh heh heh heh.

Tim

--
In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!"
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms




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