Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #2   Report Post  
rhncue
 
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Default Quick change tool post question

I've always heard the wedge type was a little more stout but I have the
piston type stup on one of my lathes and never have had any problems. For
cue making there just isn't much strain put on the machinery. I have the
next size larger set-up on my lathe, I believe it is for the 13" to 16"
lathe but it works fine.
Dick

--
repairing and building fine custom cues for
real pool players at affordable prices.
over 30 years experience.
Richard H. Neighbors
web sight http://www.dickiecues.com
ph.# (513) 242-1700
cinti. oh.
"Bruno" wrote in message
...
Enco is a part of MSC so if the price is OK, buy from Enco. MSC won't
mind.


(Cuezilla) wrote:

I am going to treat myself to a quick change tool post for my 13 inch
Sheldon. I was looking at the Enco catalog and they have the Phase 11
for $109. and $199.00 One is a piston type and the other wedge. Is
there a difference that should make me spend the extra money? Should I
not even be looking the these and go for something higher quality?
Really look forward to some input before making the purchase. Also
they come in a package with the main post and 5 holders. Is the
assortment any good or should I see if I can buy the post, (I saw some
on ebay) and then buy the holders I want. I know I will probably need
more then what it comes with. Is Enco a pretty good place to buy? I
live about 15 minutes from MSC and they have them but they are a bit
more there for the same thing. Enco's price is a sale price though.
Thanks




  #3   Report Post  
DeepDiver
 
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Default Quick change tool post question

"Cuezilla" wrote:

I was looking at the Enco catalog and they have the Phase 11 [QCTP]
for $109. and $199.00 One is a piston type and the other wedge. Is
there a difference that should make me spend the extra money?


Yes there is a difference. The piston type pushes the holder away from the
post which means that load bearing only occurs on the relatively narrow
contact of the dovetails. The wedge type pulls the holder toward the post
which means that load bearing occurs on the wide flats as well as the
dovetails. The wedge type is an inherently stronger and more rigid design.
It is similar in operation to the dovetail slides and ways on mills, lathes,
etc. The only advantage to the post type is that it's cheaper to manufacture
(and hence cheaper to buy).

If you are planning to use a QCTP on a small hobby lathe with only very
light cuts, you'll probably never know the difference between the two types.
But to get the maximum rigidity required for heavy cuts, the wedge type is
definitely the way to go.


Should I not even be looking the these and go for something higher
quality?


I have a Phase II wedge-type QCTP and am quite satisfied with its
construction. Like all "cheap" import tooling, it's a little rough in
non-critical areas (like the inside bore of the center bushing), but it's
precise and well-finished where it counts and is certainly worth its price.
However you will want to replace all the socket set screws in the holders
with quality fasteners (they are M10x1.5 x 20mm); Chinese fasteners are
notoriously weak and poorly formed.

Sure you can buy a much higher quality US set made by Aloris or Dorian, but
do you really want to spend over $400 for this?


Also they come in a package with the main post and 5 holders. Is
the assortment any good or should I see if I can buy the post,
(I saw some on ebay) and then buy the holders I want.


Buy the complete set as a start and grow your holders from there. Just look
at the prices of the individual holders and do the math. It's much cheaper
to get those five holders as part of the set than it is to buy them
separately. If I recall, you'll save money even if you throw away two of the
five holders.


I know I will probably need more then what it comes with.


1. Get the set.
2. Work with it.
3. Figure out what additional holders you'll need.
4. Add to your collection.
5. Repeat step 4 until bankrupt.


Is Enco a pretty good place to buy? I live about 15 minutes
from MSC and they have them but they are a bit more there
for the same thing. Enco's price is a sale price though.


Enco is an excellent source for tooling. (No affiliation. But I have given
them a lot of business--including buying my QCTP set from them.) MSC is the
parent company of Enco...so no harm, no foul on that count. Enco has great
sales (and damn good regular prices too: their policy is to beat any other
retailer's price by 5%). Enco often features other promotions too like free
shipping (which I believe they are offering this month) which can be
combined with the sale price.

Those QCTP are on sale at Enco almost every month so don't feel pressured
into buying before you're ready.

Good luck!
Michael


  #4   Report Post  
Ron Thompson
 
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Default Quick change tool post question

With the wedge style, the
handle locks the holders in about the same position whether using it on
the turning or the boring dovetail. With the piston style, the arm has
to swing through about 90 degrees -- plus or minus a bit more depending
on tolerance of the holders. This can mean that with one position the
lever is interfering with the tailstock, or with the other position, the
lever is in danger of impacting the chuck.


I was fortunate to be able to use several of both types at school. I prefer
the piston style. I have had the wedge style stick and be difficult to
release.
As to the handle being in the way in some positions, we had this problem. I
remedied it by disassembling the post and mounting the cam in a dividing
head, drilling and tapping 2 more holes for the handle. Now it can be put in
the one that suits it best on that machine. The hardest part was figuring
out how to get it apart.

--

Ron Thompson
On the Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast
USA

http://www.plansandprojects.com

Where did everyone go? Oh, yeah.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/castinghobby/
Y'all come, ya hear?
*******



  #5   Report Post  
Cuezilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default Quick change tool post question

Quote
" Later, you can pick up some of the specialized Aloris tool
holders -- they will fit the wedge style Phase-II with no problems.
I've got a mix of Phase-II and Aloris."

Will they fit the piston type should that be my choice?








(DoN. Nichols) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Cuezilla wrote:
I am going to treat myself to a quick change tool post for my 13 inch
Sheldon. I was looking at the Enco catalog and they have the Phase 11


You mean "Phase II" (Roman numeral "2", not "11".) Not as
pretty as a genuine Aloris, but certainly good enough. Plan to buy a
box of made in USA 8mm setscrews to replace the ones which come with the
toolholders, however, as the steel in the existing setscrews is rather
unpredictable, and it is a *lot* easier to replace the screws *before*
one side of the socket splits off while you've got a tool in the holder.

Later, you can pick up some of the specialized Aloris tool
holders -- they will fit the wedge style Phase-II with no problems.
I've got a mix of Phase-II and Aloris.

for $109. and $199.00 One is a piston type and the other wedge. Is
there a difference that should make me spend the extra money?


The wedge style is more rigid than the piston -- which can make
a difference when making heavy cuts. I opted for the Wedge style.
Afterwards, I discovered one other benefit. With the wedge style, the
handle locks the holders in about the same position whether using it on
the turning or the boring dovetail. With the piston style, the arm has
to swing through about 90 degrees -- plus or minus a bit more depending
on tolerance of the holders. This can mean that with one position the
lever is interfering with the tailstock, or with the other position, the
lever is in danger of impacting the chuck.

What size are you looking at? For a 13" swing lathe, especially
a solid one like a Sheldon, I would go for the BXA/series-200 size. (I
actually did so, even for my Clausing 12" swing lathe.)

Should I
not even be looking the these and go for something higher quality?
Really look forward to some input before making the purchase. Also
they come in a package with the main post and 5 holders. Is the
assortment any good or should I see if I can buy the post, (I saw some
on ebay) and then buy the holders I want.


The assortment is a reasonable starting point, with the
exception of the knurling tool. A scissors style knurler is far better,
or the special Aloris one with a single knob tightening two knurls down
on either side of the workpiece works very nicely. (I have both, and
tend to use the Aloris one most of the time -- or special T-bar knurlers
for the turret on the machine for when I'm doing batch part making.

You *will* want lots of extra tool holders, as one of the
advantages of this system is that you can preset the height for each
tool on the holder, so when you change, you don't have to fiddle with
the height. Every time you have to pull out one tool from a holder to
make room for another, you defeat this benefit.

Some people here have set up to mass-produce holders to fit
their toolpost. Do you have a mill? If so, you could probably do
similar production runs.

I know I will probably need
more then what it comes with. Is Enco a pretty good place to buy? I
live about 15 minutes from MSC and they have them but they are a bit
more there for the same thing. Enco's price is a sale price though.


Don't worry about he difference in quality -- both are Phase-II,
(if they both say so), and MSC owns Enco these days, so you should be
getting the same thing. I bought mine when Dave Ficken was having a
sale on them. I've never regretted it.

Good Luck,
DoN.



  #6   Report Post  
gary wilkin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Quick change tool post question



--On Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:41 PM -0700 Cuezilla
wrote:

I am going to treat myself to a quick change tool post for my 13 inch
Sheldon. I was looking at the Enco catalog and they have the Phase 11
for $109. and $199.00 One is a piston type and the other wedge. Is
there a difference that should make me spend the extra money?


Wacked the rest..

I bought one of those Phase II package deals with the piston type tool post.

When I came to a job that required switching tool holders repeatedly I
found out why they are so much cheaper!

They aren't repeatable to anything better than .010".

Ended up setting it on a bench and buying an Aloris wedge style that has
repeatability in the .0005" range.

I wasted my money on that POS, and had to buy a better one anyway. I HATE
when that happens.

Oh, it's a 200/BXA size if anyone wants it.

GW




  #7   Report Post  
Boris Beizer
 
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Default Quick change tool post question


"Cuezilla" wrote in message
om...
Quote
" Later, you can pick up some of the specialized Aloris tool
holders -- they will fit the wedge style Phase-II with no problems.
I've got a mix of Phase-II and Aloris."

Will they fit the piston type should that be my choice?


Piston or wedge, the fit is the same. Use them interchangeably. As
noted elsewhere, get the bigger size (BxA) or 200 -- that's a lot more
important than piston versus wedge. I bought the smaller phase II and
after investing in a lot of tooling such as making my own holders and
various gadgets for the 100 sized, I learned that B size tool holders
and such are much more available than the smaller size on the used
tool market. Not only more available, but often cheaper. My mistake.
I think that from the point of view of rigidity, the 200 or BxA size
piston type will be a lot more rigid than the 100, AxA wedge type. As
for piston versus wedge, I don't think the big issue is rigidity -- it
is repeatability. For production work that would be very important.
For my amateur use, it is a non-issue. I usually don't sweat it if
my tool bit is off by a thou or so, one way or the other.

Boris

--

-------------------------------------
Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting
1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and
Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance

TEL: 215-572-5580
FAX: 215-886-0144
Email

------------------------------------------


  #8   Report Post  
Cuezilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default Quick change tool post question

I checked with MSC and they would not meet the Enco sale price. The
differance is big, $109.00 from Enco and $300.81 from MSC for the
exact same tool.


(Charles A. Sherwood) wrote in message ...
Thank you all for your comments, I think I will go with the wedge type
and try to get MSC to match the Enco price.


Why? Order it from enco. You are essentially dealing with the same
company anyway.
chuck

  #9   Report Post  
Ken C
 
Posts: n/a
Default Quick change tool post question

I paid $159 from Bills Tool CRib (on the web) for a wedge type Aloris clone.
Best price around and good service.
Incidently, it's a BXA/200 type and I have it on MY Sheldon 13" WM-56P

Ken

"Cuezilla" wrote in message
om...
Hi
I would be interested in it, email me what you would like to have for
it. Maybe we can do something.
Thanks

gary wilkin wrote in message

.. .
--On Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:41 PM -0700 Cuezilla


wrote:

I am going to treat myself to a quick change tool post for my 13 inch
Sheldon. I was looking at the Enco catalog and they have the Phase 11
for $109. and $199.00 One is a piston type and the other wedge. Is
there a difference that should make me spend the extra money?


Wacked the rest..

I bought one of those Phase II package deals with the piston type tool

post.

When I came to a job that required switching tool holders repeatedly I
found out why they are so much cheaper!

They aren't repeatable to anything better than .010".

Ended up setting it on a bench and buying an Aloris wedge style that has
repeatability in the .0005" range.

I wasted my money on that POS, and had to buy a better one anyway. I

HATE
when that happens.

Oh, it's a 200/BXA size if anyone wants it.

GW



  #10   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
Posts: n/a
Default Quick change tool post question

In article ,
Cuezilla wrote:
Quote
" Later, you can pick up some of the specialized Aloris tool
holders -- they will fit the wedge style Phase-II with no problems.
I've got a mix of Phase-II and Aloris."

Will they fit the piston type should that be my choice?


This seems to be a function of just how deep the center of the
dovetail is cut. The Aloris ones, I believe, are all intended to be
used on their wedge style posts. But I think that they are still very
consistent, even when it doesn't matter for their toolpost. The piston
posts are sensitive to the depths of the center of the dovetail, and
I have read posts by some others about having to glue a shim in the
bottom of the dovetail for some of the cheaper brands. The *width* of
the dovetail is much more consistent than the depth between
manufacturers, I believe. (Note that there are a bunch of cheap
(relatively) brands -- sometimes sold as house brands, and these can
vary much more.) There are also other *good* brands, such as Dorian,
which is not really wedge or piston, but sort of a hybrid. It does use
a cam-operated piston, but the piston acts out the back edge of the
dovetail, pulling it down as tightly as the wedge does.

Note that somebody else mentioned having a wedge style stick.
I've never seen that when using an Aloris at work, or when using a
Phase-II here at home. (I did once have the hollow center post start to
unscrew, so I pulled it apart, cleaned and lubed it, and used LocTite
on the screws at the bottom of the center post, and have had no trouble
with is since. I suspect that the wedge style sticking may have come
from swarf working down into the threads which drive the wedges, if
things aren't kept clean enough all the time.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


  #11   Report Post  
Ken C
 
Posts: n/a
Default Quick change tool post question

Hi bg,
I've got news for you, Phase II *is* the lowest of the low in quality.
Ken


"bg" wrote in message
om...
Ken,

Maybe you should check the brand name on the tool set you have. Bills
Tool Crib doesnt sell Phase II brand. They sell no name copies that
are basically the lowest of the low grades. There is a big difference
between these. The only similarity is the model or series numbers.

bg


"Ken C" wrote in message

nk.net...
I paid $159 from Bills Tool CRib (on the web) for a wedge type Aloris

clone.
Best price around and good service.
Incidently, it's a BXA/200 type and I have it on MY Sheldon 13" WM-56P

Ken

"Cuezilla" wrote in message
om...
Hi
I would be interested in it, email me what you would like to have for
it. Maybe we can do something.
Thanks

gary wilkin wrote in message

.. .
--On Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:41 PM -0700 Cuezilla


wrote:

I am going to treat myself to a quick change tool post for my 13

inch
Sheldon. I was looking at the Enco catalog and they have the Phase

11
for $109. and $199.00 One is a piston type and the other wedge. Is
there a difference that should make me spend the extra money?

Wacked the rest..

I bought one of those Phase II package deals with the piston type

tool
post.

When I came to a job that required switching tool holders repeatedly

I
found out why they are so much cheaper!

They aren't repeatable to anything better than .010".

Ended up setting it on a bench and buying an Aloris wedge style that

has
repeatability in the .0005" range.

I wasted my money on that POS, and had to buy a better one anyway. I

HATE
when that happens.

Oh, it's a 200/BXA size if anyone wants it.

GW



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