Robert Jordan wrote:
Sorry my mistake... I was reminded it was R12.. Been awhile since i used
that Number... So im looking for R12 not R15 Robert in Mesquite

Followup-To: dfw.forsale

of course you have a license, right? i was in your shoes just last week,
needing just a single can to top off my 89 Escort and thinking about
using propane (do _NOT_ do this at home) when i found two more cans
in a cabinet, separated from the R22 and other volitiles. must have
have bot these just before the new law.

of course i ran right down to the ac tech and had one installed. my
point? look around, you may have some, maybe ask a neighbor who owes
you a favor. you can have my last can for the right price. grin

good luck, --Loren


"Mac McKinzie" wrote in message
om...
is R15 cheaper than R12?

"Robert Jordan" wrote in message
news
I need to buy 1-2 cans of the old R15 freon can to put in my Car AC. If
you
have an old can or two laying around and dont need them, Let me know the
price and location and I might pick them up from you.

Robert in Mesquite

"lcoe" wrote in message
news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54...
Robert Jordan wrote:
Sorry my mistake... I was reminded it was R12.. Been awhile since i used
that Number... So im looking for R12 not R15 Robert in Mesquite

Followup-To: dfw.forsale

of course you have a license, right? i was in your shoes just last week,
needing just a single can to top off my 89 Escort and thinking about
using propane (do _NOT_ do this at home) when i found two more cans
in a cabinet, separated from the R22 and other volitiles. must have
have bot these just before the new law.

of course i ran right down to the ac tech and had one installed. my
point? look around, you may have some, maybe ask a neighbor who owes
you a favor. you can have my last can for the right price. grin

good luck, --Loren


"Mac McKinzie" wrote in message
om...
is R15 cheaper than R12?

"Robert Jordan" wrote in message
news I need to buy 1-2 cans of the old R15 freon can to put in my Car AC.
If
you
have an old can or two laying around and dont need them, Let me know
the
price and location and I might pick them up from you.

Robert in Mesquite

"lcoe" wrote in message
news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54...

of course you have a license, right?

There is a bunch of misinformation out there about this (and this could
be some of it). As I recall, you do not need a license to do your own
personal AC work and it is legal to possess, buy and sell NOS (new-old
stock) F12. That said, it is likely that no commercial establishment will
sell you AC materials without at least an EPA license, (which is not
difficult to get via the Internet http://www.epatest.com/e_609cert.html ).
You can easily hurt yourself working with refrigerants if you do not have
the proper equipment and/or know what you are doing. There may be some
more-stringent state and local regulation around, I am only talking about
federal regulation.

Sorry for the double post.

Vaughn

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:23:29 GMT, "Vaughn"
wrote:


"lcoe" wrote in message
news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54...
Robert Jordan wrote:
Sorry my mistake... I was reminded it was R12.. Been awhile since i used
that Number... So im looking for R12 not R15 Robert in Mesquite

Followup-To: dfw.forsale

of course you have a license, right? i was in your shoes just last week,
needing just a single can to top off my 89 Escort and thinking about
using propane (do _NOT_ do this at home) when i found two more cans
in a cabinet, separated from the R22 and other volitiles. must have
have bot these just before the new law.

of course i ran right down to the ac tech and had one installed. my
point? look around, you may have some, maybe ask a neighbor who owes
you a favor. you can have my last can for the right price. grin

good luck, --Loren


"Mac McKinzie" wrote in message
om...

Had the R12 drawn out of my '88 Chrysler 2 years ago and traded what
was left for a full load of 134A and a set of conversion fittings. Put
in an ounce of the new compatible oil, and some dye in case any leaks
develop, and back in business. Cools almost as well as the R12 did at
its best, and a whole lot better than it did with low freon. No
changes to gaskets or "O"rings, - Nothing. Still working just fine..
is R15 cheaper than R12?

"Robert Jordan" wrote in message
news I need to buy 1-2 cans of the old R15 freon can to put in my Car AC.
If
you
have an old can or two laying around and dont need them, Let me know
the
price and location and I might pick them up from you.

Robert in Mesquite

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:27:59 GMT, "Vaughn"
wrote:


"lcoe" wrote in message
news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54...

of course you have a license, right?

There is a bunch of misinformation out there about this (and this could
be some of it). As I recall, you do not need a license to do your own
personal AC work and it is legal to possess, buy and sell NOS (new-old
stock) F12. That said, it is likely that no commercial establishment will
sell you AC materials without at least an EPA license, (which is not
difficult to get via the Internet http://www.epatest.com/e_609cert.html ).
You can easily hurt yourself working with refrigerants if you do not have
the proper equipment and/or know what you are doing. There may be some
more-stringent state and local regulation around, I am only talking about
federal regulation.

Sorry for the double post.

Vaughn


Depends where you are. Here in Ontario it is illegal to work on AC
(pressurized components) without a licence, period. Cannot import or
produce R12. The only reasonable source of R12 is systems being
scrapped, as ALL refrigeration systems must, by law, be evacuated
(reclaimed) before disposal.
Now, we ALL know laws were made to be broken - - - but don't get
caught.

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"lcoe" wrote in message
news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54...

of course you have a license, right?

There is a bunch of misinformation out there about this (and this could
be some of it). As I recall, you do not need a license to do your own
personal AC work and it is legal to possess, buy and sell NOS (new-old
stock) F12.

Not true. You can not do your own AC service without EPA certification.
R-134 perhaps, but not R-12. Study for the test, it is all in there!
Greg

Greg O wrote:

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"lcoe" wrote in message
news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54...

of course you have a license, right?

There is a bunch of misinformation out there about this (and this could
be some of it). As I recall, you do not need a license to do your own
personal AC work and it is legal to possess, buy and sell NOS (new-old
stock) F12.

Not true. You can not do your own AC service without EPA certification.
R-134 perhaps, but not R-12. Study for the test, it is all in there!
Greg

this sounds like the truth, what i have heard/read, but i am not offering
a opinion. Regards, --Loren

Fred McClellan wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 03:26:12 GMT, k7kkg wrote:


There's a legal replacement for R 12 other thna 134a,
it doesn't require any sort of conversion.
Info: http://www.freeze12.com/

Do yourself a favor and read the MSDS for that stuff first.

We looked at Freeze12 and several other 'drop-in replacements' for
R-12. None were acceptable to us because of notably increased health
hazards and/or flammability.

Cheers,
Fred McClellan
the dash plumber at mindspring dot com
i looked at it also and figured that it was not a replacement for R-12,
but was filling in the space that the R-12 should have been in... it
seems to me to be propane or something... i remember an old guy who knew
just about everything at work(if you had a question, someone would
always say just ask Ralph).. he told me that he was short on some R-12
and had some propane and replaced it in the car and the a/c worked
fine... also in my state(motor vehicle section) there is a law about
having flamables in the a/c system... most states if not all probably
have the same thing....not many people would know about it, but a lawyer
with a complete listing of all motor vehicle laws would have it......
most people would only be concerned with red lights, stop signs, who has
the right of way at a four way stop, etc.. but they also list the
equipment regulations...

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:59:02 -0500, "Greg O"
wrote:


"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"lcoe" wrote in message
news:6_hXa.41418$Oz4.11990@rwcrnsc54...

of course you have a license, right?

There is a bunch of misinformation out there about this (and this could
be some of it). As I recall, you do not need a license to do your own
personal AC work and it is legal to possess, buy and sell NOS (new-old
stock) F12.

Not true. You can not do your own AC service without EPA certification.
R-134 perhaps, but not R-12. Study for the test, it is all in there!
Greg

R134 too - and 134 is more dangerous than R12 - it is a known
carcinogen, even in low concentrations.

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:24:15 -0500, David A. Webb
wrote:

You need the license to purchase R12, and to service any R12 system.
There are pretty strict guidelines.

You do not need a license to sell it. But the seller must obtain the
license number from the buyer.

You do not need a license to buy, sell, or service R134a.

Dave

Except in Canada - where you DO need a licence to handle 134.

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
You need the license to purchase R12, and to service any R12 system.
...For Consideration. I see no prohibition if you are working on your
own vehicles.

OK, you made me go back to the book. Please note the below excerpt
from EPA regulations: http://www.epa.gov/oar/caa/caa609.txt and please
feel free to correct me (with verified facts and links please) if I am
wrong. We are only talking about US government regulation, state and local
regulations may be more stringent, the regulations of other countries such
as Canada WILL be different.
Be sure to note the words "For Consideration" (that means that someone
is paying you).


(c) Servicing Motor Vehicle Air Conditioners.- Effective
January 1, 1992, no person repairing or servicing motor vehicles
for consideration may perform any service on a motor vehicle air
conditioner involving the refrigerant for such air conditioner
without properly using approved refrigerant recycling equipment
and no such person may perform such service unless such person
has been properly trained and certified. The requirements of the
previous sentence shall not apply until January 1, 1993 in the
case of a person repairing or servicing motor vehicles for
consideration at an entity which performed service on fewer than
100 motor vehicle air conditioners during calendar year 1990 and
if such person so certifies, pursuant to subsection (d)(2), to
the Administrator by Janu- ary 1, 1992.
(d) Certification.- (1) Effective 2 years after the enactment
of the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990, each person performing
service on motor vehicle air conditioners for consideration shall
certify to the Administrator either-
(A) that such person has acquired, and is properly using,
approved refrigerant recycling equipment in service on motor
vehicle air conditioners involving refrigerant and that each
individual authorized by such person to perform such service
is properly trained and certified;

Regards;
Vaughn



There are pretty strict guidelines.

Not so strict actually, unless you are in the business.


You do not need a license to sell it. But the seller must obtain the
license number from the buyer.

You do not need a license to buy, sell, or service R134a.

Dave

I wonder how many of those eBayer's selling R12 by the can require a license
number to complete the sale.

Randy


"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
You need the license to purchase R12, and to service any R12 system.
There are pretty strict guidelines.

You do not need a license to sell it. But the seller must obtain the
license number from the buyer.

You do not need a license to buy, sell, or service R134a.

Dave

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:16:01 GMT, "Carl Ijames"
wrote:

We looked at Freeze12 and several other 'drop-in replacements' for
R-12. None were acceptable to us because of notably increased health
hazards and/or flammability.

Did you look at R414B? Similar to R406A but that is hard to get locally. A
friend has used a lot of both in R12 auto systems and is really satisfied.
A little pricey, about $275 for 25 lbs, but cools better than R12, works
fine with mineral oil (that's my biggest concern with Freeze-12, from the
composition I'm skeptical about oil solubility and another friend at a parts
store told me that FourSeasons and the other compressor manufacturers that
they carry won't warranty their stuff with Freeze-12 but he didn't know
why). Also, propane is a close match for R22, not R12; a mix of propane and
isobutane is a good match for R12 but it's flammable and not approved by the
EPA; it used to be sold as OZ-12 and something else that you may be
confusing with Freeze-12 which is a mix of R134A and R14something :-).

Yes, we've looked at all the known 'drop-in' R-12 replacements, and
found them wanting in one or more ways.

They either had propane as a component or had a really ugly glide.

R-134a is bad enough in the glide department, don't see the sense in
adding propane to the equation.

The key, as you noted, is what the compressor manufacturers will
accept as warrantable refrigerant.
Cheers,
Fred McClellan
the dash plumber at mindspring dot com

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
You need the license to purchase R12, and to service any R12 system.
...For Consideration. I see no prohibition if you are working on your
own vehicles.



So far I would have to agree with you, but I am still digging!
At this point I will agree that it perhaps is ok for a person to work on his
own automobile AC system, BUT several places I have found requirements that
ALL refrigerants be recovered, period.
This pretty much puts it out of the scope of your typical DIY. What is the
pint of doing it yourself if you need to buy several hundred $$ of equipment
to do it!!

Also be aware of the date of the articles you are referencing. The original
laws regarding AC service are still active, but there has been revisions to
the early laws. I believe it is illegal for anyone to work on air
conditioning, I just can find it in the mountains of information available
from the EPA!
Greg

http://www.autofrost.com/monroe/safety/safety.html

Looking at those pictures, I wouldn't recommend using propane as a
substitute. IMHO the gentlemen operating the propane tank valve is a prime
candidate for a Darwin Award.

snippage
But, of course, ALL refrigeration systems have flammables in them -- the
OIL!
Check at George Goble's site http://www.autofrost.com/ for some info
and a picture showing him demonstrating the flammability of standard R-12
as vented from a running auto air conditioner, and ignited with a match.
(I couldn't find the picture on his page just now, but it was there some
time ago.)
You might have to email him for it.

Jon

I have sold R12 on eBay, and it is legal.

You must state in the add that you require the buyer be licensed,
AND you must state you require the license number before the
transaction is complete.

After that, eBay can consider themselves free of liability, and
everything is okay.

Dave

Wonder if anyone considered the fact that the ethylene glycol you use
in your radiator is flammable.

Dave

In article , David says...

Wonder if anyone considered the fact that the ethylene glycol you use
in your radiator is flammable.

It would be pretty tough to light on fire mixed
50/50 with water. The *real* question you should
be asking, is if many folks know that the LD/50
dose for ethylene glycol is 1/4 cup for a human
adult. If a bunch of folks ingest that amount,
about half of them will die.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
... is if many folks know that the LD/50 dose ...

Is that like a half life?

Tim

--
In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!"
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
... is if many folks know that the LD/50 dose ...

Is that like a half life?

Exactly the opposite

Vaughn

"Greg O" wrote in message
...


Ok! I found it! It is in the EPA's Final Rule, dated December 30, 1997. If
you read through it you will see that they no longer include the term "
for
consideration". All techs servicing MVAC systems must be EPA 609
certified.
All techs must recover, no venting. Guidelines for recovery equipment, and
more! It is all in there!

http://epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/regu.../62fr68026.pdf

Your info is older information!
It is from the EPA's current web page
http://www.epa.gov/oar/caa/caa609.txt For you to be correct, the EPA site
would have to be some six years out of date (OK, we are talking about the US
government here so that is not TOO great a stretch)

Read it and weep!

Weep? You make this sound like this is an argument, I thought we were
just digging for the facts. The Federal Register link is a good find! I
have not had time to digest all 33 pages, but I am not finding the same
stuff that you are finding. The damn pdf does not seem to allow copying, so
look at 82.34 on page 23. The "Consideration" language seems to be intact.
There may be some good stuff that I haven't found yet, particularly in the
pages that discuss the EPA's intent.

Vaughn


Greg

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:16:51 -0500, David A. Webb
wrote:

Wonder if anyone considered the fact that the ethylene glycol you use
in your radiator is flammable.

Dave

Anybody else notice that the windshiel washer stuff they have in the
buckets at the gas station is VERY flammable? Like we are talking 15
foot diameter fireball if you try to us it to put out an engine fire.
Being as it was winter and the stuff wasn't frozen I should have
clued in, but I was kinda in a hurry as my new spark plug wires were
getting burnt. Was filling with gas at the time, some people are
nervous about somone leaving their engine running while filling, this
one put that in perspective.

If anyone is interested in the whole story let me know, in retrospect
it was really a comical series of events.

Dave

"David A. Webb" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:48:50 -0500, "Greg O"
wrote:


Go to page 19, end of the page, starting section F Sales Restriction.
There
it clearly states that is is illegal for anyone to possess refrigerant
without certification in containers less than 20 lbs.. Later the
paragragh
mentions that the rules where changed again to include any size
container.


Actually, it says it is illegal to SELL it to anyone who does not have
a license. It says nothing about possession.

Dave

\

Oops, got me there!
But since it is illegal to do anything with it once you possess it, what you
gonna do with it??
Sell it to someone with certification is your only "legal" choice!
Greg

"Greg O" wrote in message
...

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
...

Read it and weep!

Weep? You make this sound like this is an argument, I thought we
were
just digging for the facts.

Don't get your panties in a knot, I am just screwing with you!

Go to page 19, end of the page, starting section F Sales Restriction.
There
it clearly states that is is illegal for anyone to possess refrigerant
without certification in containers less than 20 lbs.. Later the paragragh
mentions that the rules where changed again to include any size container.

Another poster cannot find any prohibition to possession, I haven't
looked.


AND,

The section you mention,
82.34,(a)No person repairing or servicing MVACs for consideration, and no
person repairing or servicing MVAC like appliances, may perform any
service
involving the refrigerant for such MVAC or MVAC like appliance:

If you are NOT a "person repairing or servicing MVACs for
consideration" or a "person repairing or servicing MVAC like appliances",
then (1) and (2) below do not apply.



(1) Without properly using equipment approved pursuant to 82.36;

(2) Unless any such person repairing or servicing an MVAC has been
properly
trained and CERTIFIED by a technician certification program approved by
the
administrator pursuant to 82.40;
Blah, blah, blah......

In 82.34(a), I do not have a clue why they insist on including the term
consideration, it clearly requires everyone to be certified if they are
working on MVAC, (motor vehicle air conditioning), or MVAC-like
appliances.
Notice they do not say technician, they state person.

It says what it says and I don't find it particularly confusing unless
you are trying to get it to say something that it doesn't say.

Pretty clear to me, you need to be certified.

That is not clear to me. If you are NOT a "person repairing or
servicing MVACs for consideration" and you are NOT a "person repairing or
servicing MVAC like appliances", then 82.34,(a) clearly does not apply,
(perhaps something ELSE applies, but I haven't found it yet.)

Although this government lawyer legalese language can be confusing!!

True enough, I am a commercial pilot so I am pretty used to reading
through this crap, not to mention having studied Administrative Law in grad.
school and I do not (yet) agree with your take on this. Also, this
conversation is almost moot because getting certified is such a trivial
excercise (a few $ and one night on the Internet) that the EPA license is
meaningless.

Regards;
Vaughn

If someone goes as far as to
take the test for 608, or 609 this is all covered. It is too bad that the
EPA can not simplify it so the basics are covered and if more info is
needed
THEN you can read through all the BS!
Greg