On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:52:33 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
What was the question?

Look up..

Typical..****ing typical of the Left. Put Grandma
out on the street simply to stay in power.

... since when were the dem's out to do that? What with their welfare,
SS and such..(?)

Tim

I posted the cites to the Dems wanting to continue the California
fiscal crisis, to further their own goals. Whom do you think its gonna
hurt when the balloon busts? Think hard little man, think hard...

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin

The so-called education money derived from tobacco taxes gets spent
primarily on bilboards and tv ads, Which I am in favor of since I work
in the industry that gets the most benefit from those funds.
As far as health care goes, how many people do you know that have gone
to a doctor to try to quit smoking? Basically by the time smokers admit
they need to give it up it's too late. The damage is done.

Jim Stewart wrote in message ...

The thing that really surprises me is that you could
like either party. They both have plenty of scumbags
and I know you're smart enough to know that. So what
is it that causes you to like democrat scumbags and hate
republican scumbag?

We have a democrat here being investigated on some charges that could
put him in deep ****. If he's found guilty, which may have already
happened, I haven't heard, I hope he spends a lot of time in the
handlebar hotel in Waupun. the GWeeBs old man most tells why I detest
the republicans, throwing bags full of money at the corporations that
had managed themselves into bankruptcy, but having an impossible time
finding money for health and education. Or for anything else that
didn't push the profits up by taking things away from those that
needed it the most. While toxic tommy was our grovelmore, he started
to try to privatize the education system, and unfortunately got a
small part pushed through. Once the major corporations have even
their little toe in that door, we can forget it, education will be
replaced by their propaganda at the expense of everything else. When
the new high school was built here in town, and this town is so
conservative they weigh their **** after taking one, there was almost
unlimited funding for computers, but most of the people balked at
keeping the machine shop. (It's the last machine shop in a public
school in the county.) Better minds finally convinced them that it
wouldn't hurt anything to keep it. The local business doesn't need
people that can think, they need drones to punch keyboards all day.
Guess who sits on most of the local boards? Most of the old
industrial buildings in town have been torn down, the land being sold
to developers for the princely sum of a whole ****ing buck. Most of
the businesses that those older buildings housed have ceased to exist,
along with maybe a couple of hundred jobs. Good economic sense, isn't
it? What used to be a publically owned hospital and clinic has been
handed over to Aurora health (we don't) care. Which might explain why
I carry a piece of paper with me that states I am not to be taken to
the local hospital under any circumstances. The downtown area is
almost dead, nothing but antique shops and second hand stores, but the
local politicians go out of their way and suck ass to get walmart to
build a superstore, which will go belly up after they've put all the
legitimate stores in town out of business. Walmart being the nations
number one violator of labor law in the country, good company they
keep. Smart people, these conservative republiscams. Not enough brain
to pour **** out of a boot with the instructions written on the heel.

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:07:47 -0000, "RAM^3"
wrote:

wrote in news:f6a1ivch4pm38stit61pd1u5sg8o2bsjlc@
4ax.com:

My wife's father is a good Texas politician. Then, of course, he's
dead.


"An 'Honest Politician' is one who stays bought." - R.A.H.

"I am an honest politician, when you buy me, I stay bought!" - K. K.
Kauamanua (compliments of Aku, Ron Jacobs, and the boys at KPOI).

Anyone remember Aucapito Bennington Smyth? And his great recipe for
Black Dog Adobo?



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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In article , "PrecisionMachinist"
says...

_AND_ when the taxes are set at the maximum level, many of these individuals
turn to criminal activity in their illegal purchase of duty free
cigarettes....Spawning an entire black market sub economy.

That's OK. Just arrest them. Let 'em buy their smokes in
jail.

And the _GOVERNMENTS _CANNOT_ AFFORD_ to _BAN_ TOBACCO_ because of the loss
of tax revenue that would result.

There's another issue here that nobody talks about. The elephant
that everyone dances around.

Smokers die a lot sooner than non-smokers. So in effect they
subsidise insurance plans, pension plans, Social Security, and
so on.

If they quit, then they'd live longer. And all the previously
non-smoking folks would get less money.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:


Smokers die a lot sooner than non-smokers. So in effect they
subsidise insurance plans, pension plans, Social Security, and
so on.

If they quit, then they'd live longer. And all the previously
non-smoking folks would get less money.

Interesting point and one that I never thought of. Do you
have any figures on whether it's a net gain or loss?

"Ljwebb11" wrote in message
...

Well SVL, it is a good thing you are not under the illusion you are
Gunner.G


Agreed.......G

You have combined words that don't belong together. The word ethical shall
not
be used in conjunction with political policy or taxes.

I believe that if so-called sin taxes are imposed, and they shouldn't be,
the
money should NOT go into the general fund. It should be used for the
reason
they claimed they needed the money in the first place.
A good example is the 25 cent per pack tax on cigs that was passed over
ten
years ago. All that money was to be spent on education and healthcare
issues
involving smoking.
Well, a couple years later, some people decide the mountain lions need
protection. They get a proposition on the ballot and it was passed by
voters.
It means that mountain lions are protected from hunting and land is being
purchased to give them a place to live.
Part of the money being used to buy the land is coming from the 25 cent
cig
tax. It was right there in the fine print of the proposition.
What the hell do mountain lions have to do with smoking?
These so-called sin taxes are simply cash cows for the big spenders.
Just like the state of Rhode Island suing everybody who sold lead-based
paint
in the state. Absolute bullcrap.

We have a big problem with voters approving these "feel good"
propositions. The
money collected by these taxes is soon diverted to other uses. And the
people
who voted for it could care less about it. They already did their "feel
good"
duty.


Agreed......


--


Cheers,


SVL

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"PrecisionMachinist"
says...

_AND_ when the taxes are set at the maximum level, many of these
individuals
turn to criminal activity in their illegal purchase of duty free
cigarettes....Spawning an entire black market sub economy.

That's OK. Just arrest them. Let 'em buy their smokes in
jail.


Hmm....

Lets put 30% in of the populace in the slammer, when they lose their jobs it
would likely help the unemployment situation....

Hell, Ill drink to that......

Now....where to get the tax money to pay for all these new jails and for
feeding all these new prisoners...( that now are contributing zilch to the
tax rolls )?

Sorry----no smokers left to sponge tax money off, their all unemployed and /
or incarcerated.......g


--


SVL

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"PrecisionMachinist"
says...

_AND_ when the taxes are set at the maximum level, many of these
individuals
turn to criminal activity in their illegal purchase of duty free
cigarettes....Spawning an entire black market sub economy.

That's OK. Just arrest them. Let 'em buy their smokes in
jail.


Hmm....

Lets put 30% in of the populace in the slammer, when they lose their jobs
it
would likely help the unemployment situation....

Hell, Ill drink to that......

Now....where to get the tax money to pay for all these new jails and for
feeding all these new prisoners...( that now are contributing zilch to the
tax rolls )?

Do you really believe that Mr. Neighborhood Crank Dealer was reporting
income and paying taxes?
The only class of incarcerated criminal, IMO, that might consist of solid
taxpayers would be the drunk drivers, and only a part of that group.

JTMcC.



Sorry----no smokers left to sponge tax money off, their all unemployed and
/
or incarcerated.......g


--


SVL

In article , "PrecisionMachinisT"
says...

Hmm....

Lets put 30% in of the populace in the slammer, when they lose their jobs it
would likely help the unemployment situation....

Nah. Not 30 percent. Only the fraction of those that
engage in illegal tax evasion. Same as for any other tax.
And then, only a fraction of those as well.

Now....where to get the tax money to pay for all these new jails and for
feeding all these new prisoners...( that now are contributing zilch to the
tax rolls )?

No money needed. They have to work for their shelter and
food. Understand how the jails in mexico work? Make
prison unpleasand enough and the first fraction above becomes
even smaller.

Ever seen Cool Hand Luke?

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 03:50:01 GMT, wrote:

On 24 Jul 2003 18:12:14 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Where that label of "idiot" well, dude.

I think this honestly speaks for itself.

Jim

My wife's father is a good Texas politician. Then, of course, he's
dead.
There is that story of a fellow out in Loving county (pop 120) sitting
on the sidewalk crying his eyes out. Seems his long-dead Daddy came to
town to vote and didn't even drop by to say hello.

In article , Rick says...


Oh wait - you meant *that* 20th century? Never mind...

!

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:04:20 GMT, "John T. McCrackhead"
wrote:


"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 03:43:40 GMT, "John T. McCrackhead"
wrote:


And, what about when we threw Ev out as governer of Arizona in the late
80's?

You didn't. Mecham was not recalled- he was impeached.
Impeachment happens at the legislative level, unlike a recall, which
is grass level.



When Ev was booted, there was a grassroots movement,
otherwise he would have served out his term, not recalled,
but removed as per the will of the people.

Sorry, that's wrong.
The impeachment process is not unlike a jury trail, where the
defendent has to be proven guilty of a crime or gross incompetence in
office.
The will of the people is not strictly involved- just look at Bill
Clinton- he was very popular with the people and yet he was subjected
to an impeachment hearing (remember?).

A recall is a public 'vote of no confidence' - the people have decided
that their elected representative is not acting in their best
interest.

Again, you did not throw out Mecham. His fellow politicians did.

-Carl
"The man who has nothing worth dying for has nothing worth living for"- Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:04:20 GMT, "John T. McCrackhead"
wrote:


"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 03:43:40 GMT, "John T. McCrackhead"
wrote:


And, what about when we threw Ev out as governer of Arizona in the
late
80's?

You didn't. Mecham was not recalled- he was impeached.
Impeachment happens at the legislative level, unlike a recall, which
is grass level.



When Ev was booted, there was a grassroots movement,
otherwise he would have served out his term, not recalled,
but removed as per the will of the people.

Sorry, that's wrong.
The impeachment process is not unlike a jury trail, where the
defendent has to be proven guilty of a crime or gross incompetence in
office.

Name me ONE state legislature with the guts to impeach and throw out of
office a governer that remains popular with the citizenry, you can't, they
don't exist. At the state level, no governor stands a chance of impeachment
without widespread public opinion on the side of the impeachers. It is not
like a jury trial, because the "jury" is the whole of public opinion in the
state.

The will of the people is not strictly involved- just look at Bill
Clinton- he was very popular with the people and yet he was subjected
to an impeachment hearing (remember?).

Yes I do, you are correct that the will of the people is not as you say
"strictly" involved, again, try to find the politicians willing to throw out
a sitting governer without a public mandate in his favor.


A recall is a public 'vote of no confidence' - the people have decided
that their elected representative is not acting in their best
interest.

I'm well aware, but thanks for the little civics lesson.


Again, you did not throw out Mecham. His fellow politicians did.

Only a few hundred thousands raised a loud and unignorable (?) voice. His
opponents would have gladly kept him around several more years for
entertainment and to pummel at every opportunity.

JTMcC.



-Carl
"The man who has nothing worth dying for has nothing worth living for"-
Martin Luther King, Jr.

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:52:09 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:

jim rozen wrote:


Smokers die a lot sooner than non-smokers. So in effect they
subsidise insurance plans, pension plans, Social Security, and
so on.

If they quit, then they'd live longer. And all the previously
non-smoking folks would get less money.

Interesting point and one that I never thought of. Do you
have any figures on whether it's a net gain or loss?

According to the figures I read a couple years ago, its a net gain.

Gunner







"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin

On 25 Jul 2003 15:38:22 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , "PrecisionMachinisT"
says...

Hmm....

Lets put 30% in of the populace in the slammer, when they lose their jobs it
would likely help the unemployment situation....

Nah. Not 30 percent. Only the fraction of those that
engage in illegal tax evasion. Same as for any other tax.
And then, only a fraction of those as well.

Now....where to get the tax money to pay for all these new jails and for
feeding all these new prisoners...( that now are contributing zilch to the
tax rolls )?

No money needed. They have to work for their shelter and
food. Understand how the jails in mexico work? Make
prison unpleasand enough and the first fraction above becomes
even smaller.

Ever seen Cool Hand Luke?

Jim


So you are going to put the prisoners into direct competition with the
outside work force? Oh but that will work well..yes indeedy.
You will have every union in the country in your front yard with
pitchforks and burning torches.

Gunner

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 01:19:58 GMT, "John T. McCrackhead"
wrote:

Yes I do, you are correct that the will of the people is not as you say
"strictly" involved, again, try to find the politicians willing to throw out
a sitting governer without a public mandate in his favor.

How about a sitting President? Clinton maintained high approval
numbers while in the middle of an impeachment. There was no clear,
public mandate for his removal.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough the first time: an impeachment is a
mechanism that allows the legislature to remove an unfit leader from
office without public approval. Don't forget, when the Founding
Fathers set up our government, there was no instant communications and
if the President commited a 'high crime or misdemeanor', there had to
be away to quickly remove him from office. A recall would have been
impossible.

A recall is a public 'vote of no confidence' - the people have decided
that their elected representative is not acting in their best
interest.

I'm well aware, but thanks for the little civics lesson.

You're welcome. You needed it.

Again, you did not throw out Mecham. His fellow politicians did.

Only a few hundred thousands raised a loud and unignorable (?) voice.

The number was 391,000. Depending on whose voter numbers you believe,
that translates to about 25 percent of the number of Arizona citizens
who voted in the 1986 gubernatorial election. *

That's a lot of voters- not the small group you imply.

His opponents would have gladly kept him around several more years for
entertainment and to pummel at every opportunity.

That's just plain crazy. Mecham was hell-bent on destroying Arizona
and only an idiot would stand by and let it happen.
Then again, only an idiot would have put Mecham in office.

* At the time, Arizona had a population of ~5 million, with about 1 in
5 actually voting.
"The man who has nothing worth dying for has nothing worth living for"- Martin Luther King, Jr.

"dann mann" wrote in message


Health care is one thing. Health insurance is something entirely
different yet the terms get used interchangeably all the time.

Bingo!!! We have us a winner!!!

http://www.forumflames.com/uploads/y..._the_prize.jpg

G

=========

Yeah, your health insurance is gonna take care of you._NOT_ ........Line up
100 beancounters out back each day and shoot 2 or 3 every coupla months and
maybe there could be some hope. g

=========

Health insurance is a frickin leech on our society---profiting offa a
numbers game with the odds stacked in their favor.......And they take a cut
from both parties.

=========

In my final years at the ole lazy b, they had succeeded in taking the dental
care down to the lowest bidder to the point where no dental group could
afford quality care without going to the brink of bankrupcy----

About every six months we got forced onto a new provider--They apparently
got good money for the initial exam and that, but when it came time to put
out.....appointments were scheduled 3~6 months out--Quite often the contract
would run out and we were back to square one g.........


--

SVL

Have you ever seen a heavy smoker die in a hospital? They linger on and
all the while they just want another smoke. It's really sad. Only remedy
is morphine which might have been the safer drug all along except it's
not "cool" to be a morphine addict.
Also if someone dies in their 50s of tobacco related causes, how have
they subsidized the system? They may have been productive taxpayers into
their early 70s albeit at pretty low levels since the weathy tend not to
die this way.

In article , Gunner says...

So you are going to put the prisoners into direct competition with the
outside work force?

Works in china. A person with a broad view
would say that this is already the case in the
US, with our new global economy.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Gunner says...

Interesting point and one that I never thought of. Do you
have any figures on whether it's a net gain or loss?

According to the figures I read a couple years ago, its a net gain.

I suspect it's a small number, but still. Just goes to show
that sometimes behaving 'right' has a detrimental effect to
society at large. Like what if eveyone stopped buying lotto
tickets? Heck, I'd have to pay more taxes then.

Or, what if everyone stopped wearing motorcycle helmets? The
hospital costs for motorcycle crashes would probably go down.

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Carl says...

Maybe I wasn't clear enough the first time: an impeachment is a
mechanism that allows the legislature to remove an unfit leader from
office without public approval.

Impeachment is basically the equivlent of an indictment to
charge a citizen over for a trial, in a criminal court.

Lots of folks understand 'impeachment' to be a guilty verdict
of that trial, but it's not. 'Impeachment' is the *beginning*
of the legal process.

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

In article ,
says...

Have you ever seen a heavy smoker die in a hospital? They linger on and
all the while they just want another smoke. It's really sad. Only remedy
is morphine which might have been the safer drug all along except it's
not "cool" to be a morphine addict.

Yes I have. My grandmother wanted a smoke and a beer in her
last go-round in the hospital. My regret is that I did not
supply either of them. Morphine use btw is quite common - pain
management has no regard for coolness or not.

Also if someone dies in their 50s of tobacco related causes, how have
they subsidized the system? They may have been productive taxpayers into
their early 70s albeit at pretty low levels since the weathy tend not to
die this way.

Folks put into social services when they are young, and take out
when they are old. I am paying for the SS of the older
folks right now. If none of them had quit, there would be more
of them alive right now, and I would be taxed more heavily. If
I took up a two pack a day habit, I would die before collecting
the amount that a non-smoker would. These are simple actuarial
numbers, any insurance agent knows this. It's not really
a subsidy.

Same with pensions. They bet you won't live long enough to
collect any money. I try to prove them wrong!
FWIW, at one time a few years ago, the average length of
time that a former employee of a certain large blue company
collected pension benefits was so short it was measured in
terms of months!

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

jim rozen wrote in
:

That's OK. Just arrest them. Let 'em buy their smokes in
jail.


Most, if not all, jails now prohibit smoking as a result of laws
prohibiting the practice in govt.-owned buildings.

Rick Chamberlain wrote in message ...
In article ,
says...

"Richard Lewis" wrote in message
. net...
(Lennie the Lurker) wrote:

Republican state rep. george petak, recalled, the only successful
recall on any state level in the 20th century.

What about 1921, when North Dakota Gov. Lynn J. Frazier was removed
from office?

And, what about when we threw Ev out as governer of Arizona in the late
80's?

Now there you go guys. Throwing in a few facts and screwing up Lenin's
rant.

There are major differences between politicians deciding that "This
turkey's gonna show us all for what we are", as in impeachment,
(See:RMN) and the constituents deciding "we've been sold out"
(See:george Petak)

It's very interesting how the democrat scandals always seem to involve
the second strongest natural instinct, that of reproduction, and
republican scandals all involve learned behavior, abuse of office,
power grabs, dividing people into "classes" and deciding that their
people are of a higher class, which is of course, 180 to the truth.

BTW, Rick. I can still remember the hate literature that was passed
out by the republican party during JFK's first campaign, such glowing
examples as the one way ticket to africa on the "Coonard Lines", and
the big grin on the face of the asshole as he handed one to each black
he saw in the shop. Strange how he didn't grin when a dozen of us
that were then younger fellows escorted him and his literature to the
incinerator and told him that either it all went in the fire, or he
went in the fire. A dozen three inch long, razor sharp burr knives
can make anyone change their mind about whether their goal is worthy
or not.

Your tactics haven't changed, only the focus group you dump your
stupidity on.

But, the GWeeB promised us that he would show us weapons, rick. Where
are they? Could it be that the GWeeB is only a tayksucks liar in a
cheap suit? When do the resignations and pardons start? It ****ed me
off that young American men have to die over there, it ****es me off
worse that it's becoming rapidly clear that they're dying for a goddam
lie. It's far more serious than anything Clinton did, but with you
people controlling the congress, I'm willing to bet that there will
never be any investigation into the presidents motives. At the very
least, he's guilty of sending young men off to war with information
that he never bothered to check out. Negligent homicide, and multiple
counts of it. Sleep with that one, while you try to defend your
illegally seated president.

Lennie the Lurker wrote:
snip
It's very interesting how the democrat scandals always seem to involve
the second strongest natural instinct, that of reproduction, and
republican scandals all involve learned behavior, abuse of office,
power grabs, dividing people into "classes" and deciding that their
people are of a higher class, which is of course, 180 to the truth.

Yup, some folks manage to evolve beyond being driven by their dick 24/7.


BTW, Rick. I can still remember the hate literature that was passed
out by the republican party during JFK's first campaign, such glowing
examples as the one way ticket to africa on the "Coonard Lines", and
the big grin on the face of the asshole as he handed one to each black
he saw in the shop. Strange how he didn't grin when a dozen of us
that were then younger fellows escorted him and his literature to the
incinerator and told him that either it all went in the fire, or he
went in the fire. A dozen three inch long, razor sharp burr knives
can make anyone change their mind about whether their goal is worthy
or not.

So you conspire to deny another man his free speech, follow through with
the conspiracy by engaging in assault with a deadly weapon, and threaten
murder? Sounds about right.

rest of swill snipped

On 27 Jul 2003 09:20:34 -0700, (Lennie the
Lurker) wrote:


It's very interesting how the democrat scandals always seem to involve
the second strongest natural instinct, that of reproduction, and
republican scandals all involve learned behavior, abuse of office,
power grabs, dividing people into "classes" and deciding that their
people are of a higher class, which is of course, 180 to the truth.

A is for Arkansas, where Bill Clinton got his political start, where
Hillary Rodham Clinton worked at the Rose Law Firm, and where
Whitewater began as a land deal between the Clintons and Jim and Susan
McDougal.

B is for Billing-gate, Hillary Clinton's missing law-billing records.
Those records -- which raise questions about Mrs. Clinton's role in
the Castle Grande deal -- were subpoenaed in 1994. They were missing
until early 1996, when they turned up in a White House room next to
her office. She says she doesn't know how they got there.

C is for Cattlegate, Hillary Clinton's mysterious ability to turn a
$1,000 investment into a $100,000 profit on cattle futures, a feat
experts say was virtually impossible in normal trading. C is also for
Castle Grande, a real-estate scheme that federal regulators say was a
sham. A federal inspector general's report found Hillary Clinton drew
up the legal papers that were used to improperly funnel hundreds of
thousands of dollars to Seth Ward, father-in-law of her ex-law partner
Webster Hubbell.

D is for Billy Dale, the career head of the White House Travel Office,
who was fired, along with six other career staffers, to make way for
Clinton cronies in Travelgate. The White House then brought in the FBI
to justify the firing, and Dale was hit with criminal charges that
wrecked his life for two years. A jury cleared him in just two hours.

E is for Mike Espy, the former agriculture secretary who was forced
out over charges that he got gifts and favors from Arkansas-based
Tyson foods, whose owners were longtime Clinton backers. A special
counsel has brought several indictments, though not against Espy.

F is for Filegate, the improper White House rummaging through 900 FBI
files on Republican officials in the Bush and Reagan administrations.
The White House says it was an innocent snafu. Republicans suspect an
enemies list. Whitewater independent counsel Ken Starr and several
congressional committees are probing.

G is for Golfgate, ex-White House aide David Watkins' improper use of
presidential helicopters for a personal golf outing. He was forced to
resign. In the 1992 presidential campaign, Clinton aides tried to use
taxpayer funds to help settle a sexual harassment case filed by a
fellow campaign worker against Watkins.

H is for Hillary Clinton, whose role has been questioned in Filegate,
Travelgate, Billing-gate, Whitewater and Castle Grande. She denies any
wrongdoing. H is also for Hubbell, in jail after pleading guilty to
bilking law clients on charges brought by Whitewater independent
counsel Starr. Hubbell was previously the associate attorney general,
the No. 3 Justice Department office.

I is for Indonesiagate, featuring the Lippo group, a firm with
long-standing ties to Bill Clinton, Clinton cronies and Arkansas.
Republicans want to know why an Indonesian couple -- of apparently
modest means -- with ties to Lippo gave $452,000 to the Democratic
National Committee and what the firm may have gotten in return. Lippo
also hired Hubbell, at a reported fee of $250,000, for the five months
between when he left the White House and went to jail

J is for Paula Jones, who accuses President Clinton of sexual
harassment, saying he dropped his pants and asked for oral sex in an
Arkansas hotel room while he was governor and she was a state
employee.

K is William Kennedy, another ex-Hillary Clinton law partner who
became a White House lawyer and was forced to resign after concealing
his failure to pay nanny taxes. He was reprimanded for his role in
Travelgate.

L is for Craig Livingstone, the ex-bar bouncer with a history of drug
use who was head of White House security. Two FBI agents say it was
Hillary Clinton who demanded his hiring, which she denies. Disgraced
Clinton political guru Dick Morris' hooker pal, Sherry Rowlands,
claims Morris told her a "paranoid" Hillary Clinton was behind
Filegate. He says he only told her that's what polls show.

M is for Jim and Susan McDougal, the Clintons' Whitewater partners,
both of whom have been convicted of fraud. Jim McDougal is said to be
helping Whitewater independent counsel Starr. Susan McDougal is in
jail for refusing to say whether President Clinton lied when he denied
knowing about an illegal $300,000 loan to bail out Whitewater. The
loan wasn't repaid, and taxpayers were left holding the bag. M also is
for disgraced Clinton political guru Dick Morris.

N is for Bernard Nussbaum, the former White House lawyer who barred
federal investigators from searching Vince Foster's office after
Foster's death. Nussbaum also withheld Foster's diary on Travelgate
problems from federal probers for more than a year. Nussbaum was
forced to resign for botching damage-control efforts.

O is for Energy Secretary Hazel O'Leary, the frequent flier who drew
up an enemies' list of reporters, hired an image consultant at
taxpayer expense, and has run up huge tabs on overseas trips.

P is for pardons, which President Clinton has refused to rule out for
individuals like Susan McDougal who potentially could provide evidence
against him. P is also for White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta,
expected to leave in a second Clinton term -- with the prospect that
his deputy, Harold Ickes, could replace him. Senate Republicans want
perjury charges brought against Ickes for his answers on Whitewater
damage control.

Q is for all the questions -- unanswered -- on Whitewater, Filegate,
Travelgate, Cattlegate and Billing-gate.

R is for Sherry Rowlands, the $200-an hour hooker who revealed her
ongoing affair with Clinton political guru DickMorris, the author of
Clinton's family-values strategy, forcing Morris to resign. R also is
for Rose Law Firm, where Hillary Clinton, Vince Foster, Webster
Hubbell and William Kennedy were partners, as was Joseph Giroir, a key
figure in the Lippo group.

S is for Kenneth Starr, the Whitewater independent counsel probing
Filegate, Travelgate and Vince Foster's death. He has won 15
convictions or guilty pleas, including both McDougals and former
Arkansas Gov. Jim Guy Tucker, who was forced to resign. Starr says his
probes are active and ongoing, and there is widespread speculation he
will have more indictments after the election, possibly including one
of Hillary Clinton.

T is for Travelgate, the Clintons' firing of career travel staffers
like Billy Dale to make way for Clinton cronies. White House memos say
Hillary Clinton was behind the firings -- she denies it -- and that
she was spurred on by Clinton Hollywood pal Harry Thomason, who was
seeking a piece of the lucrative White House charter business.

U is for undue influence and the question of whether that is what
Lippo was seeking through megabucks contributions to Democrats. Lippo
has close ties to Indonesia's brutal dictatorship, responsible for
near-genocide in East Timor, which it occupied two decades ago.

V is for Vince Foster, the former Hillary Clinton law partner who
became a White House lawyer and was found dead, an apparent suicide
with a gunshot wound to the head. He apparently was a central figure
in Travelgate and Filegate and handled Whitewater matters for the
Clintons. Starr is examining his death and has yet to confirm former
prober Bob Fiske's conclusion that it was a suicide in the park where
Foster was found.

W is for Whitewater, the Arkansas land deal that started it all, with
questions about whether the Clintons improperly benefited from funds
from Jim McDougal's Madison Guarantee savings-and-loan, which went
belly up, costing taxpayers an estimated $60 million.

X is for the Xeroxed copy of Hillary Clinton's law billing records
that were found in the White House book room, two years after they
were first sought. The pages had Mrs. Clinton's fingerprints around
the section on Castle Grande -- there were red ink notations in the
late Vince Foster's handwriting.

Y is for the young White House aides who were hired by the Clinton
administration despite FBI background checks that found "recent" use
of hard drugs like cocaine, crack and hallucinogens.

Z is for zero -- the amount of money the Clintons had at risk in
Whitewater, even though they were equal partners with the McDougals.
-- By Deborah and Thomas

Whitewater
Cattlegate
Nannygate
Helicoptergate
Travelgate
Gennifer Flowersgate
Filegate
Vince Fostergate
I wonder where those Whitewater billing records came fromgate
Paula Jonesgate
Federal Building campaign phone callgate
Lincoln bedroomgate
White House coffeegate
Donations from convicted drug and weapons dealersgate
Buddhist Templegate
Web Hubbell hush moneygate
Lippogate
Chineseagate - Clinton was practically endorsed by red China Update!
Let's blame Kenneth Starrgate
IRS Tax auditgate
Zippergate/interngate - the Lewinsky affair itself
Perjury and jobs for Lewinskygate - the aftermath
Willeygate
Web Hubbell prison phone callgate
Selling Military Technology to the Chinese Commiesgate Updated with
Cox report!
Illegal Funds for Advertisementsgate
Coverup for our Russian Comrades as Wellgate
Wag-the-Dog-gate
Juanita Broaddrick gate
PBS-gate
Email-gate
Vandalgate
Lootergate
Pardongate
Coverupgate - this last one applies to about every scandal. The only
problem is that Clinton has never been any good at cover-ups
Clintongate - the administration as a whole

Sure, its all about sex huh.....

Snicker

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:18:38 GMT, Stan Stocker
wrote:



Lennie the Lurker wrote:
snip
It's very interesting how the democrat scandals always seem to involve
the second strongest natural instinct, that of reproduction, and
republican scandals all involve learned behavior, abuse of office,
power grabs, dividing people into "classes" and deciding that their
people are of a higher class, which is of course, 180 to the truth.

Yup, some folks manage to evolve beyond being driven by their dick 24/7.


BTW, Rick. I can still remember the hate literature that was passed
out by the republican party during JFK's first campaign, such glowing
examples as the one way ticket to africa on the "Coonard Lines", and
the big grin on the face of the asshole as he handed one to each black
he saw in the shop. Strange how he didn't grin when a dozen of us
that were then younger fellows escorted him and his literature to the
incinerator and told him that either it all went in the fire, or he
went in the fire. A dozen three inch long, razor sharp burr knives
can make anyone change their mind about whether their goal is worthy
or not.

So you conspire to deny another man his free speech, follow through with
the conspiracy by engaging in assault with a deadly weapon, and threaten
murder? Sounds about right.

rest of swill snipped

Leslie is an old Wobblie. They also like to use dynamite and arson.

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On 27 Jul 2003 09:20:34 -0700, (Lennie the
Lurker) wrote:


It's very interesting how the democrat scandals always seem to involve
the second strongest natural instinct, that of reproduction, and
republican scandals all involve learned behavior, abuse of office,
power grabs, dividing people into "classes" and deciding that their
people are of a higher class, which is of course, 180 to the truth.

A is for Arkansas, where Bill Clinton got his political start, where
Hillary Rodham Clinton worked at the Rose Law Firm, and where
Whitewater began as a land deal between the Clintons and Jim and Susan
McDougal.

B is for Billing-gate, Hillary Clinton's missing law-billing records.
Those records -- which raise questions about Mrs. Clinton's role in
the Castle Grande deal -- were subpoenaed in 1994. They were missing
until early 1996, when they turned up in a White House room next to
her office. She says she doesn't know how they got there.

C is for Cattlegate, Hillary Clinton's mysterious ability to turn a
$1,000 investment into a $100,000 profit on cattle futures, a feat
experts say was virtually impossible in normal trading. C is also for
Castle Grande, a real-estate scheme that federal regulators say was a
sham. A federal inspector general's report found Hillary Clinton drew
up the legal papers that were used to improperly funnel hundreds of
thousands of dollars to Seth Ward, father-in-law of her ex-law partner
Webster Hubbell.

D is for Billy Dale, the career head of the White House Travel Office,
who was fired, along with six other career staffers, to make way for
Clinton cronies in Travelgate. The White House then brought in the FBI
to justify the firing, and Dale was hit with criminal charges that
wrecked his life for two years. A jury cleared him in just two hours.

E is for Mike Espy, the former agriculture secretary who was forced
out over charges that he got gifts and favors from Arkansas-based
Tyson foods, whose owners were longtime Clinton backers. A special
counsel has brought several indictments, though not against Espy.

F is for Filegate, the improper White House rummaging through 900 FBI
files on Republican officials in the Bush and Reagan administrations.
The White House says it was an innocent snafu. Republicans suspect an
enemies list. Whitewater independent counsel Ken Starr and several
congressional committees are probing.

G is for Golfgate, ex-White House aide David Watkins' improper use of
presidential helicopters for a personal golf outing. He was forced to
resign. In the 1992 presidential campaign, Clinton aides tried to use
taxpayer funds to help settle a sexual harassment case filed by a
fellow campaign worker against Watkins.

H is for Hillary Clinton, whose role has been questioned in Filegate,
Travelgate, Billing-gate, Whitewater and Castle Grande. She denies any
wrongdoing. H is also for Hubbell, in jail after pleading guilty to
bilking law clients on charges brought by Whitewater independent
counsel Starr. Hubbell was previously the associate attorney general,
the No. 3 Justice Department office.

I is for Indonesiagate, featuring the Lippo group, a firm with
long-standing ties to Bill Clinton, Clinton cronies and Arkansas.
Republicans want to know why an Indonesian couple -- of apparently
modest means -- with ties to Lippo gave $452,000 to the Democratic
National Committee and what the firm may have gotten in return. Lippo
also hired Hubbell, at a reported fee of $250,000, for the five months
between when he left the White House and went to jail

J is for Paula Jones, who accuses President Clinton of sexual
harassment, saying he dropped his pants and asked for oral sex in an
Arkansas hotel room while he was governor and she was a state
employee.

K is William Kennedy, another ex-Hillary Clinton law partner who
became a White House lawyer and was forced to resign after concealing
his failure to pay nanny taxes. He was reprimanded for his role in
Travelgate.

L is for Craig Livingstone, the ex-bar bouncer with a history of drug
use who was head of White House security. Two FBI agents say it was
Hillary Clinton who demanded his hiring, which she denies. Disgraced
Clinton political guru Dick Morris' hooker pal, Sherry Rowlands,
claims Morris told her a "paranoid" Hillary Clinton was behind
Filegate. He says he only told her that's what polls show.

M is for Jim and Susan McDougal, the Clintons' Whitewater partners,
both of whom have been convicted of fraud. Jim McDougal is said to be
helping Whitewater independent counsel Starr. Susan McDougal is in
jail for refusing to say whether President Clinton lied when he denied
knowing about an illegal $300,000 loan to bail out Whitewater. The
loan wasn't repaid, and taxpayers were left holding the bag. M also is
for disgraced Clinton political guru Dick Morris.

N is for Bernard Nussbaum, the former White House lawyer who barred
federal investigators from searching Vince Foster's office after
Foster's death. Nussbaum also withheld Foster's diary on Travelgate
problems from federal probers for more than a year. Nussbaum was
forced to resign for botching damage-control efforts.

O is for Energy Secretary Hazel O'Leary, the frequent flier who drew
up an enemies' list of reporters, hired an image consultant at
taxpayer expense, and has run up huge tabs on overseas trips.

P is for pardons, which President Clinton has refused to rule out for
individuals like Susan McDougal who potentially could provide evidence
against him. P is also for White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta,
expected to leave in a second Clinton term -- with the prospect that
his deputy, Harold Ickes, could replace him. Senate Republicans want
perjury charges brought against Ickes for his answers on Whitewater
damage control.

Q is for all the questions -- unanswered -- on Whitewater, Filegate,
Travelgate, Cattlegate and Billing-gate.

R is for Sherry Rowlands, the $200-an hour hooker who revealed her
ongoing affair with Clinton political guru DickMorris, the author of
Clinton's family-values strategy, forcing Morris to resign. R also is
for Rose Law Firm, where Hillary Clinton, Vince Foster, Webster
Hubbell and William Kennedy were partners, as was Joseph Giroir, a key
figure in the Lippo group.

S is for Kenneth Starr, the Whitewater independent counsel probing
Filegate, Travelgate and Vince Foster's death. He has won 15
convictions or guilty pleas, including both McDougals and former
Arkansas Gov. Jim Guy Tucker, who was forced to resign. Starr says his
probes are active and ongoing, and there is widespread speculation he
will have more indictments after the election, possibly including one
of Hillary Clinton.

T is for Travelgate, the Clintons' firing of career travel staffers
like Billy Dale to make way for Clinton cronies. White House memos say
Hillary Clinton was behind the firings -- she denies it -- and that
she was spurred on by Clinton Hollywood pal Harry Thomason, who was
seeking a piece of the lucrative White House charter business.

U is for undue influence and the question of whether that is what
Lippo was seeking through megabucks contributions to Democrats. Lippo
has close ties to Indonesia's brutal dictatorship, responsible for
near-genocide in East Timor, which it occupied two decades ago.

V is for Vince Foster, the former Hillary Clinton law partner who
became a White House lawyer and was found dead, an apparent suicide
with a gunshot wound to the head. He apparently was a central figure
in Travelgate and Filegate and handled Whitewater matters for the
Clintons. Starr is examining his death and has yet to confirm former
prober Bob Fiske's conclusion that it was a suicide in the park where
Foster was found.

W is for Whitewater, the Arkansas land deal that started it all, with
questions about whether the Clintons improperly benefited from funds
from Jim McDougal's Madison Guarantee savings-and-loan, which went
belly up, costing taxpayers an estimated $60 million.

X is for the Xeroxed copy of Hillary Clinton's law billing records
that were found in the White House book room, two years after they
were first sought. The pages had Mrs. Clinton's fingerprints around
the section on Castle Grande -- there were red ink notations in the
late Vince Foster's handwriting.

Y is for the young White House aides who were hired by the Clinton
administration despite FBI background checks that found "recent" use
of hard drugs like cocaine, crack and hallucinogens.

Z is for zero -- the amount of money the Clintons had at risk in
Whitewater, even though they were equal partners with the McDougals.
-- By Deborah and Thomas

Whitewater
Cattlegate
Nannygate
Helicoptergate
Travelgate
Gennifer Flowersgate
Filegate
Vince Fostergate
I wonder where those Whitewater billing records came fromgate
Paula Jonesgate
Federal Building campaign phone callgate
Lincoln bedroomgate
White House coffeegate
Donations from convicted drug and weapons dealersgate
Buddhist Templegate
Web Hubbell hush moneygate
Lippogate
Chineseagate - Clinton was practically endorsed by red China Update!
Let's blame Kenneth Starrgate
IRS Tax auditgate
Zippergate/interngate - the Lewinsky affair itself
Perjury and jobs for Lewinskygate - the aftermath
Willeygate
Web Hubbell prison phone callgate
Selling Military Technology to the Chinese Commiesgate Updated with
Cox report!
Illegal Funds for Advertisementsgate
Coverup for our Russian Comrades as Wellgate
Wag-the-Dog-gate
Juanita Broaddrick gate
PBS-gate
Email-gate
Vandalgate
Lootergate
Pardongate
Coverupgate - this last one applies to about every scandal. The only
problem is that Clinton has never been any good at cover-ups
Clintongate - the administration as a whole

Sure, its all about sex huh.....

Snicker

Gunner

What about lying under oath, or was that one of the more minor sins?

In article , "rallain" says...

What about lying under oath, or was that one of the more minor sins?

No no. That was Ollie-Northgate. Under "O."

Hmm. No, it might have been under "P" for Poindexter.

Well, possibly "I" for Iran-contra.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 27 Jul 2003 17:36:03 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , "rallain" says...

What about lying under oath, or was that one of the more minor sins?

No no. That was Ollie-Northgate. Under "O."

Hmm. No, it might have been under "P" for Poindexter.

Well, possibly "I" for Iran-contra.

There's probably a whole alphabet full. N for Nixon, L for Lyndon...

Al Moore

In article ,
says...
On 27 Jul 2003 17:36:03 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , "rallain" says...

What about lying under oath, or was that one of the more minor sins?

No no. That was Ollie-Northgate. Under "O."

Hmm. No, it might have been under "P" for Poindexter.

Well, possibly "I" for Iran-contra.

There's probably a whole alphabet full. N for Nixon, L for Lyndon...


The "A Deceitful Kingdom: The Liar's Abecedarius".

Ned Simmons

Stan Stocker wrote in message ...
Lennie the Lurker wrote:

Yup, some folks manage to evolve beyond being driven by their dick 24/7.

Yeah, but they also want to be paid for being nothing but greedy and
useless. When you start looking at you wife like she was a commodity,
you know you're a conservtive.


So you conspire to deny another man his free speech, follow through with
the conspiracy by engaging in assault with a deadly weapon, and threaten
murder? Sounds about right.

Try, twelve men that saw something wrong did something about it. I
know, it's against conservative principle, but we did it anyhow.
Politically correct now means giving up any sense of what is right,
and accepting the dictates of a few very stupid people. The president
wouldn't lie, would he? Where are the weapons georgieboy? To put
things in terms maybe even a conservative slug could understand with a
tutor, nobody died because of clinton. How many people died in Iraq?
Our soldiers and their innocents? All for nothing more than to feed
the GWeeB's blood lust. Not to mention stroke his ego. Lives mean
nothing to him, there's profit at stake. (Which he should be burned
at.)

Lennie - is that really you? Wow, no really coarse language, just muted
ranting. Meds must have kicked in, eh?

There are major differences between politicians deciding that "This
turkey's gonna show us all for what we are", as in impeachment,
(See:RMN) and the constituents deciding "we've been sold out"
(See:george Petak)

It's very interesting how the democrat scandals always seem to involve
the second strongest natural instinct, that of reproduction, and
republican scandals all involve learned behavior, abuse of office,
power grabs, dividing people into "classes" and deciding that their
people are of a higher class, which is of course, 180 to the truth.

Ah yes, the "class" argument. Seems to me that class is something the
Dems always harp on - that there is a lower, middle, and upper class.
Kinda funny that Republicans control the Executive and Legislative
branches of government then, eh Lennie? I mean, how could so few of the
"upper" class folk control what the "lower" and "middle" class folk vote
for? Must be the "vast right wing conspiracy" taking over the "lower"
and "middle" classes too, eh?

BTW, Rick. I can still remember the hate literature that was passed
out by the republican party during JFK's first campaign, such glowing
examples as the one way ticket to africa on the "Coonard Lines", and
the big grin on the face of the asshole as he handed one to each black
he saw in the shop. Strange how he didn't grin when a dozen of us
that were then younger fellows escorted him and his literature to the
incinerator and told him that either it all went in the fire, or he
went in the fire. A dozen three inch long, razor sharp burr knives
can make anyone change their mind about whether their goal is worthy
or not.

Whatever. And all Republicans are looking to put grandma and grandpa in
the streets, take away school lunch (and breakfast), kill the
environment, and generally screw anyone not of the "upper" class.

I find it interesting that you seem to think your tactics are noble in
the face of some hate speech. It's OK for you to bully someone into
changing their mind, but if a Republican does it, we're mean spirited
and oppressive.

And if you try to read into that last paragraph that I approve of the
hate speech, you're wrong. But the playing field isn't level there.
It's OK for you to call me homophobic, racist, greedy, selfish, killer
of grandma and grandpa, enemy of children, anti-women, etc. etc. etc.

No, none of that is *hate* speech, now is it...

Your tactics haven't changed, only the focus group you dump your
stupidity on.

But, the GWeeB promised us that he would show us weapons, rick. Where
are they? Could it be that the GWeeB is only a tayksucks liar in a
cheap suit? When do the resignations and pardons start? It ****ed me
off that young American men have to die over there, it ****es me off
worse that it's becoming rapidly clear that they're dying for a goddam
lie. It's far more serious than anything Clinton did, but with you
people controlling the congress, I'm willing to bet that there will
never be any investigation into the presidents motives. At the very
least, he's guilty of sending young men off to war with information
that he never bothered to check out. Negligent homicide, and multiple
counts of it. Sleep with that one, while you try to defend your
illegally seated president.

Where to begin - so much material, so little time.

1. Bush is not illegally seated, much as your lefty friends would have
you believe. If it helps you sleep at night, keep that thought. I
wouldn't want you to get cranky and end up on a watchtower somewhere.

2. WMD. If they were all disposed of, why didn't Hussein show proof?
Why did the UN and the Clinton administration all say they were there?
You seem to think that only 2 months after the hostility that all
Iraqies are going to happily talk against Hussein, when everyone knows
there are still many loyalists. These people are afraid, but soon
Lennie, they'll begin to trust us more than they are afraid of Hussein
and the weapons will be found.

I'll leave the rest for others to comment on. But, it is nice to hear
your discourse without all the crude language.

Rick Chamberlain

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:50:06 -0700, michael
wrote:

Lennie the Lurker wrote:

Stan Stocker wrote in message ...
Lennie the Lurker wrote:

Yup, some folks manage to evolve beyond being driven by their dick 24/7.

Yeah, but they also want to be paid for being nothing but greedy and
useless. When you start looking at you wife like she was a commodity,
you know you're a conservtive.


So you conspire to deny another man his free speech, follow through with
the conspiracy by engaging in assault with a deadly weapon, and threaten
murder? Sounds about right.

Try, twelve men that saw something wrong did something about it. I
know, it's against conservative principle, but we did it anyhow.
Politically correct now means giving up any sense of what is right,
and accepting the dictates of a few very stupid people. The president
wouldn't lie, would he? Where are the weapons georgieboy? To put
things in terms maybe even a conservative slug could understand with a
tutor, nobody died because of clinton. How many people died in Iraq?
Our soldiers and their innocents? All for nothing more than to feed
the GWeeB's blood lust. Not to mention stroke his ego. Lives mean
nothing to him, there's profit at stake. (Which he should be burned
at.)

.........nobody died because of clinton.

Oh, this ought to get real interesting. Alledged suicides must not count as dieing.
Political correctness....... you're basically right, just be sure to apply your thoughts "correctly" and
to all deserving.

michael


James McDougal - Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner died of an
apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key
witness in Ken Starr's investigation. Was James McDougal Murdered In A
Federal Prison To Silence Him?

Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported
to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the
investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's
skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was
being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a
deal with prosecutors.
The Botched Ron Brown Investigation
An Interview with AFIP Forensic Photographer Kathleen Janoski
by Wesley Phelan
Vince Foster - Former white House councelor, and colleague of Hillary
Clinton at Little Rock's Rose law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the
head, ruled a suicide. Snippets From The Vince Foster Death
Investigation
Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at
a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just as she
was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White
House.
Mary C. Mahoney and Eric Butera

Was this just a robbery gone bad? - See: Starbucks Suspect Faces Host
of Charges By Bill Miller Washington Post, August 5, 1999



C. Victor Raiser II - & - Montgomery Raiser: Major players in the
Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in
July 1992.

Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found
dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by
Clinton as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor".

Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the
woods in Virginia of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed
Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill
Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey
was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little
Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little
Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He
allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the
files were mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had
a "Black Book" of people containing names of influential people who
visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an aparent hanging
suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson - Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson died in
May 1994 was found dead in her living roon with a gunshot to her head.
It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed
suitcases, as if she was going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a
co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy
Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

Bill Shelton - Arkansas state Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson.
Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in
June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the gravesite of
his fiancee.

Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton friend Dan Lassater died by jumping
out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a
convicted drug distributor.

Florence Martin - Accountant - Sub-contractor for the CIA related to
the Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. Died of three gunshot
wounds.

Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was
Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the
head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978
until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport
and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists,
apparent suicide in the middle of his investigation.

Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with
Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet
June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report
to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust
Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment
balcony August 15,1993 Was investigating Morgan Guarantee scandal.

Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron
Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996.
Her bruised nude body was found locked in her office at the Department
of Commerce.

Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang
special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane
crash.

Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care
Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small
plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory
council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, Death was no
accident.

Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Clinton in
the trunk of a car left in his repair shop. Died when his car hit a
utility pole.

Stanley Huggins - Suicide. Investigated Madison Guarantee. His report
was never released.

Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994
when his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case.
Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena arkansas airport
drug operation. Controversal case where initial report of death was
due to falling asleep on railroad track. Later reports claim the 2
boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to
the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.
see: The Train Deaths - plus some comments from a mother of one of the
boys about the connection to Bill Clinton..

THE FOLLOWING SEVEN PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES / HENRY CASE:
Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a
truck July, 1988

Keith McMaskle - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump
in April 1989.

James Milan - Found decapitated. Coroner ruled death due to natural
causes.

Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his
pickup truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters - Was a suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. Was killed
in a set-up robbery July 1989.

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD
Major William S. Barkley Jr.
Captain Scott J. Reynolds
Sgt. Brian Hanley
Sgt. Tim Sabel
Major General William Robertson
Col. William Densberger
Col. Robert Kelly
Spec. Gary Rhodes
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan
Source for above: "Steven Levine" ]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


More deaths connected to Clinton and his Administration ...



Chinese journalists killed in the bombing on May 8, 1999 of the
Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia
(left to right): Shao Yunhuan, of Xinhua News Agency, Xu Xinghu and
his wife, Zhu Ying, reporters at Guangming Daily. [NATO bombed the
Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia]

76 deaths as a result of the government siege on the Branch Davidians
coumpound at Waco Texas. [Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum: Death]
April 19, 1995 - bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City
results in the death of 168 people

Yugoslav civilian death toll estimated at 500 to 2000 in 78 days of
Nato bombing of Yugoslavia [24 March and 10 June 1999] - Clinton said
he supported NATO bombing of Serb television stations, despite
criticism from some NATO allies who believe these are civilian
targets. "Serb television is an essential instrument of Mr.
Milosevic's command and control," Clinton said. Clinton Urges Patience
With NATO Bombing Campaign - Washington Post April 25, 1999




http://www.americanpolicy.org/more/clintonsdeath.htm
"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:18:18 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 20:35:54 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

|On 28 Jul 2003 05:38:47 -0700, (Lennie the
|Lurker) wrote:
|
|Gunner wrote in message . ..
|
| Leslie is an old Wobblie. They also like to use dynamite and arson.
|
|No. Those are conservative tactics, we prefer face to face.
|
|326 Olive Ave,
|Taft, Ca. 93268
|
|Bring your lunch and a designated driver for the trip home.

Where in _Hell_ do these pukes come from Gunner?
I would love to bitch slap half of them across the room with the back
of my right hand.

Lg

Actually I think Leslie lives somewhere in your neck of the
woods.......

EG

Gunner, "reach out and touch someone..."

BTW..Im starting my review of a set of tapes Big John sent me, from
CaneMasters.
Most interesting. Something I may pursue deeper.


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:50:06 -0700, michael
wrote:

Lennie the Lurker wrote:

Stan Stocker wrote in message
...
Lennie the Lurker wrote:

Yup, some folks manage to evolve beyond being driven by their dick
24/7.

Yeah, but they also want to be paid for being nothing but greedy and
useless. When you start looking at you wife like she was a commodity,
you know you're a conservtive.


So you conspire to deny another man his free speech, follow through
with
the conspiracy by engaging in assault with a deadly weapon, and
threaten
murder? Sounds about right.

Try, twelve men that saw something wrong did something about it. I
know, it's against conservative principle, but we did it anyhow.
Politically correct now means giving up any sense of what is right,
and accepting the dictates of a few very stupid people. The president
wouldn't lie, would he? Where are the weapons georgieboy? To put
things in terms maybe even a conservative slug could understand with a
tutor, nobody died because of clinton. How many people died in Iraq?
Our soldiers and their innocents? All for nothing more than to feed
the GWeeB's blood lust. Not to mention stroke his ego. Lives mean
nothing to him, there's profit at stake. (Which he should be burned
at.)

.........nobody died because of clinton.

Oh, this ought to get real interesting. Alledged suicides must not count
as dieing.
Political correctness....... you're basically right, just be sure to
apply your thoughts "correctly" and
to all deserving.

michael


James McDougal - Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner died of an
apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key
witness in Ken Starr's investigation. Was James McDougal Murdered In A
Federal Prison To Silence Him?

Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported
to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the
investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's
skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was
being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a
deal with prosecutors.
The Botched Ron Brown Investigation
An Interview with AFIP Forensic Photographer Kathleen Janoski
by Wesley Phelan
Vince Foster - Former white House councelor, and colleague of Hillary
Clinton at Little Rock's Rose law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the
head, ruled a suicide. Snippets From The Vince Foster Death
Investigation
Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at
a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just as she
was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White
House.
Mary C. Mahoney and Eric Butera

Was this just a robbery gone bad? - See: Starbucks Suspect Faces Host
of Charges By Bill Miller Washington Post, August 5, 1999



C. Victor Raiser II - & - Montgomery Raiser: Major players in the
Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in
July 1992.

Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found
dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by
Clinton as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor".

Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the
woods in Virginia of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed
Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill
Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey
was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little
Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little
Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He
allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the
files were mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had
a "Black Book" of people containing names of influential people who
visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an aparent hanging
suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson - Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson died in
May 1994 was found dead in her living roon with a gunshot to her head.
It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed
suitcases, as if she was going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a
co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy
Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

Bill Shelton - Arkansas state Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson.
Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in
June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the gravesite of
his fiancee.

Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton friend Dan Lassater died by jumping
out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a
convicted drug distributor.

Florence Martin - Accountant - Sub-contractor for the CIA related to
the Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. Died of three gunshot
wounds.

Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was
Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the
head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978
until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport
and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists,
apparent suicide in the middle of his investigation.

Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with
Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet
June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report
to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust
Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment
balcony August 15,1993 Was investigating Morgan Guarantee scandal.

Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron
Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996.
Her bruised nude body was found locked in her office at the Department
of Commerce.

Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang
special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane
crash.

Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care
Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small
plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory
council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas, Death was no
accident.

Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Clinton in
the trunk of a car left in his repair shop. Died when his car hit a
utility pole.

Stanley Huggins - Suicide. Investigated Madison Guarantee. His report
was never released.

Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994
when his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case.
Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena arkansas airport
drug operation. Controversal case where initial report of death was
due to falling asleep on railroad track. Later reports claim the 2
boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to
the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.
see: The Train Deaths - plus some comments from a mother of one of the
boys about the connection to Bill Clinton..

THE FOLLOWING SEVEN PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES / HENRY CASE:
Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a
truck July, 1988

Keith McMaskle - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump
in April 1989.

James Milan - Found decapitated. Coroner ruled death due to natural
causes.

Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his
pickup truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters - Was a suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. Was killed
in a set-up robbery July 1989.

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD
Major William S. Barkley Jr.
Captain Scott J. Reynolds
Sgt. Brian Hanley
Sgt. Tim Sabel
Major General William Robertson
Col. William Densberger
Col. Robert Kelly
Spec. Gary Rhodes
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan
Source for above: "Steven Levine" ]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------


More deaths connected to Clinton and his Administration ...



Chinese journalists killed in the bombing on May 8, 1999 of the
Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia
(left to right): Shao Yunhuan, of Xinhua News Agency, Xu Xinghu and
his wife, Zhu Ying, reporters at Guangming Daily. [NATO bombed the
Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia]

76 deaths as a result of the government siege on the Branch Davidians
coumpound at Waco Texas. [Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum: Death]
April 19, 1995 - bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City
results in the death of 168 people

Yugoslav civilian death toll estimated at 500 to 2000 in 78 days of
Nato bombing of Yugoslavia [24 March and 10 June 1999] - Clinton said
he supported NATO bombing of Serb television stations, despite
criticism from some NATO allies who believe these are civilian
targets. "Serb television is an essential instrument of Mr.
Milosevic's command and control," Clinton said. Clinton Urges Patience
With NATO Bombing Campaign - Washington Post April 25, 1999




http://www.americanpolicy.org/more/clintonsdeath.htm
"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William
Burroughs

James Carville? Scariest guy I've ever seen on TV.

Gary H. Lucas

Gunner wrote in message . ..


Gunner's usual sources?

http://www.crank.net/conspiracy.html

Probably loads of "fresh" material left ....
--
Cliff Huprich

michael wrote in message ...


Oh, this ought to get real interesting. Alledged suicides must not count as dieing.
Political correctness....... you're basically right, just be sure to apply your thoughts "correctly" and
to all deserving.


Think you should crawl back to alt.conspiracy. There's a big
difference in men committing suicide and a coward in the white house
sending men off to die for his cowardice.

On 28 Jul 2003 22:08:07 -0700, (Lennie the
Lurker) wrote:

Gunner wrote in message . ..

Actually I think Leslie lives somewhere in your neck of the
woods.......

don't much give a **** where the loonies you hang with come from
gummer. Just wish you'd quit dragging RCM into your mental sewer.
Quit your goddam crossposting fairyface.

1. I notice you enter the thread quite voluntarily. Not here for the
metalworking content, are you boy?
2. You are crossposting G
3. For someone whom talks about fairys/queers so much, one is lead to
wonder what latent tendencies lurk in your closet.....


Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs