Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #171   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 04:45 PM
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:17:32 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 04:32:45 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:56:07 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:56:59 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.

The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.

Gary

Actually not. Just the ones whom bother to vote. Check out the last
Census.

The distribution figures *are* from the Census.

BTW, statistically, the people in "Fly Over" country are more likely
to vote than the teeming underclasses of the major metropolitan
areas on or near the coasts. It is only because there are so many
fewer people in "Fly Over" country that the popular vote tends to be
dominated by the metropolitan areas on both coasts.

Gary


Got some cites?


It depends on what you want "cites" of. Around 47% of the US population
lives in the states that border both oceans. But, in 2000, 80.3% of the US
population lived in metropolitan areas, defined the way the Census Bureau
defines them. There are a lot of metropolitan areas outside of the coastal
states. Is Detroit "flyover" to you, or not?

Thank you Ed. That means 53% of the folks live in Fly Over Country., and
yes, Detroit is in that area.
Its not part of the Beltway, or the Seatle/San Diego strip. In Here Be
Dragons land..and having spent much time in Detroit..Here Be Dragons is
about right...G


Voting percentages vary widely. Arizona is the lowest of the mainland
states, with 42.3% of the voting-age population (VAP) turning out for the
2000 Presidential election. Minnesota was the highest, at 68.8%. You can see
the state-by-state results at:

http://www.fec.gov/pages/2000turnout/reg&to00.htm

That's the Federal Election Commission. For the population figures I listed
above, see the Census Bureau site. There's enough statistics there to keep
you happily cross-posting for weeks. g


Ive been there many times before..which is why I asked Gary for cites
G. I respect him too much to tell him straight out he was wrong ...

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin

  #172   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 05:00 PM
Spehro Pefhany
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:00:19 GMT, the renowned "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

You should look at it from the other end of the telescope, Mark. All any of
us do is supply services, unless we're farmers. "Tangible goods" are just
services bundled into convenient packages. Your can opener provides the
service of opening cans, not of delighting your artistic sensibilities. g


Hmm.. what would you make of one like this one?
http://www.designstore.com/alcancanop.html

At $40.00, it's at least 85% delighting artistic sensibilities and
only 15% opening cans (compared to my choice, the classic SwingAway®)

;-)

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
  #173   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 06:23 PM
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:51:14 GMT, Lewis Hartswick
pixelated:

jim rozen wrote:

we're all going to be flipping burgers at McDs soon.


What bothers me (not realy since I'm retired) is if everyone is
"flipping burgers" who is left to buy them. Just us retired folks
who are on a low fat diet? :-)


No, not them. Retired folks are smart and know better than
to eat that crap.


--------------------------------------------
-- I'm in touch with my Inner Curmudgeon. --
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
================================================== ==========
  #174   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 07:03 PM
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , "Ed

says...

The second thing to consider is that manufactured goods are really

"packaged
services." You don't buy a car to display as sculpture in your library.

You
buy it to get you from place to place, to provide the service of
transportation.


OK, but thinking about this more, there is some
coninuum. For example on the one end there is
a car manufacturer who ships cars to end users.

Then there is also the OK Cab Company, who provides
the *exact* same end service (transportation), albeit
with a very different boundary conditions.

Cars: you own, you maintain, you fuel, you drive, available
whenever you want. Two-way by nature.

Taxis: they own, they maintain, they fuel, they drive,
restricted on availability. Can be two-way or one way.

But I would think that anyone would say that a taxi
company is near one extreme of the continuum, and
GM is at the far other end.


Yes, it's complicated in practice. But it's a useful way to clear your head
of the mistaken idea that only goods (and ag products, and mined products)
can create "wealth." Ask the president of Goldman Sachs. He probably never
built a thing, and he has lots of wealth. g

Goods tend to go to consumers for non-business purposes, in which case they
provide their service directly; or to businesses, as capital equipment or as
consumables, like pencils to an accountant. So they're almost always an
essential part of providing some service, and most services can't be
provided without some products to help the process.

But if you're a hamburger flipper, most of what you need is a spatula. If
you're an airline, you may need a bunch of 767s.

This subject usually comes up in the context of thinking about what the net
economic effect is of a negative balance of trade. And the answer is, the
trade balance itself doesn't give you the answer. It's complicated...


There *is* a difference there. Besides, thinking about
that aspect some more, some folks *do* buy vehicles
as sculptures!


Not in my neighborhood, except for the Ford "**** You" SUV parked across the
street. g

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)



  #175   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 07:05 PM
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:00:19 GMT, the renowned "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

You should look at it from the other end of the telescope, Mark. All any

of
us do is supply services, unless we're farmers. "Tangible goods" are just
services bundled into convenient packages. Your can opener provides the
service of opening cans, not of delighting your artistic sensibilities.

g

Hmm.. what would you make of one like this one?
http://www.designstore.com/alcancanop.html

At $40.00, it's at least 85% delighting artistic sensibilities and
only 15% opening cans (compared to my choice, the classic SwingAway®)


This is a good example of what a mature industrial economy does when it can
no longer think of anything useful to make, that people don't already have
in such quantities that they're selling their used ones to each other at
flea markets. g

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)





  #176   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 10:49 PM
John T. McCracken
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.net...

"Uncle_Phil" wrote in message
...
((Snip))


The health of any economy is primarily a function of the velocity
of money. The more rapidly it changes hands, and the more hands
through which it passes, the more robust the economy. It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary


Hmmmm.... The ghost of Carlo Ponzi is alive and well???


Gary's statement is essentially correct, or at least a lot more correct

than
the idea that an economy's health and wealth is based on extraction
(mining), agriculture, and manufacturing. Those are the things we often
hear, but they're the result of some misunderstandings.

Two things to consider he Since the time of Adam Smith (late 18th
century), the basis of modern economics has been the understanding that a
country's wealth is the sum of its outputs -- goods and services

combined --
in a given period of time. Thus, we see GDP and GNP as the most common
measures of wealth in the field of economics. GDP should be in approximate
balance with the product of the money supply and its turnover rate, which

is
also known as the velocity of money.


The great given, and I am an absolute expert here so pay attention, is that
the velocity of money is increased approx. tenfold when a teenage girl is
present in the household!

JTMcC.



The second thing to consider is that manufactured goods are really

"packaged
services." You don't buy a car to display as sculpture in your library.

You
buy it to get you from place to place, to provide the service of
transportation. Manufactured goods tend to be very efficient packages of
services, but the thing you're buying when you purchase them is the

services
they provide.

So the distinction between goods and services as measures of "wealth" is

an
artificial one, which has led to many misunderstandings. Most services
interact in some way with goods -- you need hamburgers to flip if you're
going to provide the service of flipping and cooking hamburgers. But, in
economic terms, it doesn't matter where those goods come from. And it
requires fewer goods to stimulate demand for more services all of the

time.

That's why the US economy continues to grow even as the portion of GDP
represented by manufactured goods continues to decline. It's now down to
just over 10% of our economy.

Ed Huntress




  #177   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 11:21 PM
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

In article , "John says...

also known as the velocity of money.


The great given, and I am an absolute expert here so pay attention, is that
the velocity of money is increased approx. tenfold when a teenage girl is
present in the household!


LOL. Also the velocity of the hot water through the
showerhead!

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
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  #179   Report Post  
Old July 25th 03, 04:04 AM
charles krin
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:17:15 GMT, Ted Edwards wrote:

The designed purpose of any gun ever made is to kill or maim in the
most efficient manner, clearly no other object comes into this
category!!


Rubish! What do you do with a sword?

Ted


or with the hypervelocity light gas gun that NASA developed to test
space shielding?

ck
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)
  #180   Report Post  
Old July 25th 03, 04:44 AM
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

In article , "Mark says...

Perhaps you are right, Ed. I'll be the first to admit I am not an expert on
this, and you have spent a lot of time and energy examining the situation.


Geeze, Mark. How can you hope to match the posts of Lennie if
you keep making remarks like that? Even worse yet, what if
one day you opened up a post from him, and found the same words
in there, but substitute 'gunner' for 'ed.'

I think they would have to scrape us both up off the floor with
a spatula.

This is I think what does amaze me, how all different kinds of
posters can co-exist on this ng - with you and your tolerance
and deference apparently at one end of the spectrum!

Jim

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