Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #161   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 04:56 AM
Gunner
 
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Default An apology

On 23 Jul 2003 12:14:30 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gary says...

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.


The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.


Hmm. I think I'm beginning to see the reasons for
having a two-house legislature! Damn those guys were
smart.

Jim

Ayup, and its still works just fine, after all these years, for the
most part.

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin

  #162   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 09:24 AM
Gary Coffman
 
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Default An apology

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:51:14 GMT, Lewis Hartswick wrote:
jim rozen wrote:

we're all going to be flipping burgers at McDs soon.


What bothers me (not realy since I'm retired) is if everyone is
"flipping burgers" who is left to buy them. Just us retired folks
who are on a low fat diet? :-)
...lew...


Well, obviously, not everyone will be flipping burgers. Some
will be in charge of the deep fryer, others will be manning the
registers, etc. :-)

In a service economy, lots of different services are required.
Everything from doctors and nurses to landscapers, barbers,
and mechanics, from cash rental agents (bankers) to salesmen
of all sorts, movie stars, and movie ticket takers, etc, etc, etc.
Each depends on the others for certain services. That makes
the cash go round and round, and that's what an economy is
all about.

The health of any economy is primarily a function of the velocity
of money. The more rapidly it changes hands, and the more hands
through which it passes, the more robust the economy. It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary

  #163   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 09:32 AM
Gary Coffman
 
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Default An apology

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:56:07 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:56:59 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.


The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.

Gary


Actually not. Just the ones whom bother to vote. Check out the last
Census.


The distribution figures *are* from the Census.

BTW, statistically, the people in "Fly Over" country are more likely
to vote than the teeming underclasses of the major metropolitan
areas on or near the coasts. It is only because there are so many
fewer people in "Fly Over" country that the popular vote tends to be
dominated by the metropolitan areas on both coasts.

Gary

  #164   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 10:43 AM
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 04:32:45 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:56:07 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:56:59 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.

The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.

Gary


Actually not. Just the ones whom bother to vote. Check out the last
Census.


The distribution figures *are* from the Census.

BTW, statistically, the people in "Fly Over" country are more likely
to vote than the teeming underclasses of the major metropolitan
areas on or near the coasts. It is only because there are so many
fewer people in "Fly Over" country that the popular vote tends to be
dominated by the metropolitan areas on both coasts.

Gary


Got some cites?

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin
  #165   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 11:15 AM
Uncle_Phil
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

((Snip))


The health of any economy is primarily a function of the velocity
of money. The more rapidly it changes hands, and the more hands
through which it passes, the more robust the economy. It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary


Hmmmm.... The ghost of Carlo Ponzi is alive and well???





  #166   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 01:18 PM
Mark Winlund
 
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Default An apology


"Gary Coffman" wrote

It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary


I suppose we can all sit around in the dirt picking fleas off of each
other..... no tangible goods required, such as clothes, housing,
transportation.... not to mention machine tools.

Tangible goods ARE the economy....the service end of it is a byproduct of
the manufacturing process. Subtract tangible goods and you will really have
a "primitive economy". The outlook for this country is not good at all.

Mark


  #167   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 03:48 PM
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology


"Uncle_Phil" wrote in message
...
((Snip))


The health of any economy is primarily a function of the velocity
of money. The more rapidly it changes hands, and the more hands
through which it passes, the more robust the economy. It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary


Hmmmm.... The ghost of Carlo Ponzi is alive and well???


Gary's statement is essentially correct, or at least a lot more correct than
the idea that an economy's health and wealth is based on extraction
(mining), agriculture, and manufacturing. Those are the things we often
hear, but they're the result of some misunderstandings.

Two things to consider he Since the time of Adam Smith (late 18th
century), the basis of modern economics has been the understanding that a
country's wealth is the sum of its outputs -- goods and services combined --
in a given period of time. Thus, we see GDP and GNP as the most common
measures of wealth in the field of economics. GDP should be in approximate
balance with the product of the money supply and its turnover rate, which is
also known as the velocity of money.

The second thing to consider is that manufactured goods are really "packaged
services." You don't buy a car to display as sculpture in your library. You
buy it to get you from place to place, to provide the service of
transportation. Manufactured goods tend to be very efficient packages of
services, but the thing you're buying when you purchase them is the services
they provide.

So the distinction between goods and services as measures of "wealth" is an
artificial one, which has led to many misunderstandings. Most services
interact in some way with goods -- you need hamburgers to flip if you're
going to provide the service of flipping and cooking hamburgers. But, in
economic terms, it doesn't matter where those goods come from. And it
requires fewer goods to stimulate demand for more services all of the time.

That's why the US economy continues to grow even as the portion of GDP
represented by manufactured goods continues to decline. It's now down to
just over 10% of our economy.

Ed Huntress


  #168   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 04:07 PM
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

In article , "Ed says...

The second thing to consider is that manufactured goods are really "packaged
services." You don't buy a car to display as sculpture in your library. You
buy it to get you from place to place, to provide the service of
transportation. Manufactured goods tend to be very efficient packages of
services, but the thing you're buying when you purchase them is the services
they provide.


There's a lot of meat (hamburger?) in that paragraph, and
I've never seen it put that way before. But from personal
experience, working where I do, this has a definite resonance.

So the distinction between goods and services as measures of "wealth" is an
artificial one, ...


Very interesting.

Jim

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  #169   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 04:17 PM
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 04:32:45 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:56:07 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:56:59 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.

The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.

Gary

Actually not. Just the ones whom bother to vote. Check out the last
Census.


The distribution figures *are* from the Census.

BTW, statistically, the people in "Fly Over" country are more likely
to vote than the teeming underclasses of the major metropolitan
areas on or near the coasts. It is only because there are so many
fewer people in "Fly Over" country that the popular vote tends to be
dominated by the metropolitan areas on both coasts.

Gary


Got some cites?


It depends on what you want "cites" of. Around 47% of the US population
lives in the states that border both oceans. But, in 2000, 80.3% of the US
population lived in metropolitan areas, defined the way the Census Bureau
defines them. There are a lot of metropolitan areas outside of the coastal
states. Is Detroit "flyover" to you, or not?

Voting percentages vary widely. Arizona is the lowest of the mainland
states, with 42.3% of the voting-age population (VAP) turning out for the
2000 Presidential election. Minnesota was the highest, at 68.8%. You can see
the state-by-state results at:

http://www.fec.gov/pages/2000turnout/reg&to00.htm

That's the Federal Election Commission. For the population figures I listed
above, see the Census Bureau site. There's enough statistics there to keep
you happily cross-posting for weeks. g

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)



  #170   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 04:25 PM
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

Got some cites?


Oh, I forgot to finish that thought.

"Throughout most of American political history, small metropolitan and rural
areas have tended to have higher voter turnout rates than metropolitan
areas." -- Economic Development Digest

You can see the rest of that discussion, and some related links, at:

http://www.nado.org/pubs/oct1.html

Ed Huntress




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