Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #151   Report Post  
Old July 23rd 03, 06:29 AM
Ken Davey
 
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Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree (what a moron)


"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:13:26 -0700, "Ken Davey"
wrote:


"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:18:00 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
??? If there is no God then *everything* is predetermined. There

is
no such thing as free will choice.

The condition was that God didn't exist. If He does exist then you
can't say all things are God's will since there is therefore free
choice, and the choices made may be against his will.

You must be assuming God gives us free will; thus without a God, there
is no free will and all is predetermined.

You are exactly right :^). If there is only material then you are
only what the atoms in your body make you. There is no free will
there, merely the illusion of it. Free will must be something beyond
the physical, in fact it must be infinite or omnipotent for free will
to be in it's fullest, purest form. So the idea is free will comes
from God within us, for those who have God in them. As the Apostle
Peter said, those who have not God are like unreasoning animals, by
which I believe he meant they do not possess free will but are guided
by animal instinct, not moral choice.

John

Good grief! Is this what 'believers' think is going on?
No wonder I detest them all.


Really now, please explain to me how free will can come out of the
material world alone? If all there is is the material then everything
that will ever be, including whatever you "choose" to have for lunch
tomorrow, was predetermined at the instant of the big bang. Since all
you are is the chemical makeup of your body. Your body and your
experience, which was also predetermined, decides what you will
decide. Cause and effect goes all the way back to the big band and is
completely predictable, if you could know the complete state of the
material universe at that instant.

It also goes back to the axiom that nothing can create something equal
to or greater than itself. Materialism cannot create anything greater
than a robot. Albeit a very fancy and complex one perhaps, but
nevertheless a robot (at best) :^).

John

I cannot buy that 'axiom' and, by extension, your entire argument.
An axiom by definition has a proof that can be tested.
This is nothing but a well crafted collection of words for the ignorant to
swallow.
Throughout history real progress in all things (good and bad) has been made
by ignoring the edicts of the 'holy men'.
The worst kind of 'progress', generally always bad, has been under their
control - and this continues to be true!
Lack of progress is observed when the holy men prevail - look to the middle
east for the most recent example. Africa also fits this criteria.
Therefor the 'axiom' should read "To create something equal to or greater
than what exists it is only necessary to assume it is possible."
Belief in a supreme being is not required and in fact such belief is
stiltifying.
I am under no illusion that my humble self can lead you to 'the light' but I
must thank you, in that your prounouncement that "there is no free will
without god" has utterly convinced me that the 'believers' are totally wrong
and my instincts (animal instincts by your definition) that rejected that
kind of thinking have served me well.

Regards.
Ken.



  #152   Report Post  
Old July 23rd 03, 08:39 AM
Lennie the Lurker
 
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Default An apology

"Mark Winlund" wrote in message ...

Gunner, isn't it nice to know that you are considered by Lennie the Luddite
to be presidential material?

Why the **** not, instead of having slime in the white house, we could
have something that God himself couldn't identify. Gunner would
probably get his jollies by sending young men off to fight a war that
is nothing more than an old south style feud. "He tried to kill my
daddy" Too goddam bad he didn't succeed. the only thing worth less
than a conservative is two of them. Suck my shorts.
  #153   Report Post  
Old July 23rd 03, 09:08 AM
Ken Davey
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology


"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
"Mark Winlund" wrote in message

...

Gunner, isn't it nice to know that you are considered by Lennie the

Luddite
to be presidential material?

Why the **** not, instead of having slime in the white house, we could
have something that God himself couldn't identify. Gunner would
probably get his jollies by sending young men off to fight a war that
is nothing more than an old south style feud. "He tried to kill my
daddy" Too goddam bad he didn't succeed. the only thing worth less
than a conservative is two of them. Suck my shorts.


A short while ago I had a crash and after this event my killfile (that
included you) didn't exist. When I ran into your drivel I thought "hell,; If
Gunner deems to spar with you there may be some value in listening in." Boy
was I wrong!
FLUSH.

Ken.


  #154   Report Post  
Old July 23rd 03, 03:52 PM
jim rozen
 
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Default An apology

In article , Gunner says...

Now Jim, would you care to indicate where that surplus went ?


Iraq.

:^)

Jim

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  #155   Report Post  
Old July 23rd 03, 04:06 PM
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

In article ,
says...

I suspect you are right about the economy being the BIG factor in
getting re-elected. Which is why Bush is not trying to run a budget
surplus. He wants to get the economy moving so he will be re-elected.
Maybe the better way is for the government to spend more, but tax
cuts let people spend more.


Time will tell. I think most folks are not spending any
money because they're pretty much afraid of loosing their
jobs. Because of the economy and all....

The big tax refund go to folks who make lots of money,
who already have enough so that won't change their
spending pattern. Another point is, I doubt that the
economy is really susceptible to control by presidents.
As a co-worker said, "don't you think, if he had a
button that magically made the economy turn around,
he wouldn't push it?"

I guess I just like whacking gunner over the head
once in a while, pointing out that his paradigm about
republicans being finanacially responsible, and the
democrats being tax-and-spend, does not fit *all*
the available data.

My opinion of why the economy is not responding is that companies have
increased productivity and can supply more goods without hiring more
workers.
Obviously not the only reason, but one of the bigger ones.


Not something I had thought of, but of course that does seem
to be the general consensus about manufacturing jobs whenever
*that* topic comes up here. That all those jobs (and
manufacturing jobs do indeed sparkplug the economy) are
departing to overseas, and not coming back.

At one level I sure hope you are wrong Dan, because that
takes the problem out of the realm of petty party politics
and puts it squarely into the 'oh ****' catagory! Not
because efficiency is bad, but because it implies that
we're all going to be flipping burgers at McDs soon.

BTW the recent message you sent me, asking about joist
reinforcement in Vincent's house, got trucated - could
you please send that over to me again?

Jim

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  #156   Report Post  
Old July 23rd 03, 05:23 PM
Gunner
 
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Default An apology

On 23 Jul 2003 07:52:38 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Now Jim, would you care to indicate where that surplus went ?


Iraq.

Nope..it was gone before we geared up. G Try again.

Gunner

:^)

Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =


"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin
  #157   Report Post  
Old July 23rd 03, 06:56 PM
Gary Coffman
 
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Default An apology

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.


The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.

Gary

  #158   Report Post  
Old July 23rd 03, 08:14 PM
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

In article , Gary says...

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.


The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.


Hmm. I think I'm beginning to see the reasons for
having a two-house legislature! Damn those guys were
smart.

Jim

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  #159   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 04:51 AM
Lewis Hartswick
 
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Default An apology

jim rozen wrote:

we're all going to be flipping burgers at McDs soon.


What bothers me (not realy since I'm retired) is if everyone is
"flipping burgers" who is left to buy them. Just us retired folks
who are on a low fat diet? :-)
...lew...
  #160   Report Post  
Old July 24th 03, 04:56 AM
Gunner
 
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Default An apology

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:56:59 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.


The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.

Gary


Actually not. Just the ones whom bother to vote. Check out the last
Census.

Gunner


"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin


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