Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #161   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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Default An apology

On 23 Jul 2003 12:14:30 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gary says...

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.


The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.


Hmm. I think I'm beginning to see the reasons for
having a two-house legislature! Damn those guys were
smart.

Jim

Ayup, and its still works just fine, after all these years, for the
most part.

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin
  #162   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:51:14 GMT, Lewis Hartswick wrote:
jim rozen wrote:

we're all going to be flipping burgers at McDs soon.


What bothers me (not realy since I'm retired) is if everyone is
"flipping burgers" who is left to buy them. Just us retired folks
who are on a low fat diet? :-)
...lew...


Well, obviously, not everyone will be flipping burgers. Some
will be in charge of the deep fryer, others will be manning the
registers, etc. :-)

In a service economy, lots of different services are required.
Everything from doctors and nurses to landscapers, barbers,
and mechanics, from cash rental agents (bankers) to salesmen
of all sorts, movie stars, and movie ticket takers, etc, etc, etc.
Each depends on the others for certain services. That makes
the cash go round and round, and that's what an economy is
all about.

The health of any economy is primarily a function of the velocity
of money. The more rapidly it changes hands, and the more hands
through which it passes, the more robust the economy. It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary

  #163   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:56:07 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:56:59 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.


The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.

Gary


Actually not. Just the ones whom bother to vote. Check out the last
Census.


The distribution figures *are* from the Census.

BTW, statistically, the people in "Fly Over" country are more likely
to vote than the teeming underclasses of the major metropolitan
areas on or near the coasts. It is only because there are so many
fewer people in "Fly Over" country that the popular vote tends to be
dominated by the metropolitan areas on both coasts.

Gary

  #164   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 04:32:45 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:56:07 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:56:59 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.

The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.

Gary


Actually not. Just the ones whom bother to vote. Check out the last
Census.


The distribution figures *are* from the Census.

BTW, statistically, the people in "Fly Over" country are more likely
to vote than the teeming underclasses of the major metropolitan
areas on or near the coasts. It is only because there are so many
fewer people in "Fly Over" country that the popular vote tends to be
dominated by the metropolitan areas on both coasts.

Gary


Got some cites?

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin
  #165   Report Post  
Uncle_Phil
 
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Default An apology

((Snip))


The health of any economy is primarily a function of the velocity
of money. The more rapidly it changes hands, and the more hands
through which it passes, the more robust the economy. It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary


Hmmmm.... The ghost of Carlo Ponzi is alive and well???





  #166   Report Post  
Mark Winlund
 
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Default An apology


"Gary Coffman" wrote

It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary


I suppose we can all sit around in the dirt picking fleas off of each
other..... no tangible goods required, such as clothes, housing,
transportation.... not to mention machine tools.

Tangible goods ARE the economy....the service end of it is a byproduct of
the manufacturing process. Subtract tangible goods and you will really have
a "primitive economy". The outlook for this country is not good at all.

Mark


  #167   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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Default An apology


"Uncle_Phil" wrote in message
...
((Snip))


The health of any economy is primarily a function of the velocity
of money. The more rapidly it changes hands, and the more hands
through which it passes, the more robust the economy. It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary


Hmmmm.... The ghost of Carlo Ponzi is alive and well???


Gary's statement is essentially correct, or at least a lot more correct than
the idea that an economy's health and wealth is based on extraction
(mining), agriculture, and manufacturing. Those are the things we often
hear, but they're the result of some misunderstandings.

Two things to consider he Since the time of Adam Smith (late 18th
century), the basis of modern economics has been the understanding that a
country's wealth is the sum of its outputs -- goods and services combined --
in a given period of time. Thus, we see GDP and GNP as the most common
measures of wealth in the field of economics. GDP should be in approximate
balance with the product of the money supply and its turnover rate, which is
also known as the velocity of money.

The second thing to consider is that manufactured goods are really "packaged
services." You don't buy a car to display as sculpture in your library. You
buy it to get you from place to place, to provide the service of
transportation. Manufactured goods tend to be very efficient packages of
services, but the thing you're buying when you purchase them is the services
they provide.

So the distinction between goods and services as measures of "wealth" is an
artificial one, which has led to many misunderstandings. Most services
interact in some way with goods -- you need hamburgers to flip if you're
going to provide the service of flipping and cooking hamburgers. But, in
economic terms, it doesn't matter where those goods come from. And it
requires fewer goods to stimulate demand for more services all of the time.

That's why the US economy continues to grow even as the portion of GDP
represented by manufactured goods continues to decline. It's now down to
just over 10% of our economy.

Ed Huntress


  #168   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , "Ed says...

The second thing to consider is that manufactured goods are really "packaged
services." You don't buy a car to display as sculpture in your library. You
buy it to get you from place to place, to provide the service of
transportation. Manufactured goods tend to be very efficient packages of
services, but the thing you're buying when you purchase them is the services
they provide.


There's a lot of meat (hamburger?) in that paragraph, and
I've never seen it put that way before. But from personal
experience, working where I do, this has a definite resonance.

So the distinction between goods and services as measures of "wealth" is an
artificial one, ...


Very interesting.

Jim

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  #169   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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Default An apology

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 04:32:45 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:56:07 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:56:59 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.

The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.

Gary

Actually not. Just the ones whom bother to vote. Check out the last
Census.


The distribution figures *are* from the Census.

BTW, statistically, the people in "Fly Over" country are more likely
to vote than the teeming underclasses of the major metropolitan
areas on or near the coasts. It is only because there are so many
fewer people in "Fly Over" country that the popular vote tends to be
dominated by the metropolitan areas on both coasts.

Gary


Got some cites?


It depends on what you want "cites" of. Around 47% of the US population
lives in the states that border both oceans. But, in 2000, 80.3% of the US
population lived in metropolitan areas, defined the way the Census Bureau
defines them. There are a lot of metropolitan areas outside of the coastal
states. Is Detroit "flyover" to you, or not?

Voting percentages vary widely. Arizona is the lowest of the mainland
states, with 42.3% of the voting-age population (VAP) turning out for the
2000 Presidential election. Minnesota was the highest, at 68.8%. You can see
the state-by-state results at:

http://www.fec.gov/pages/2000turnout/reg&to00.htm

That's the Federal Election Commission. For the population figures I listed
above, see the Census Bureau site. There's enough statistics there to keep
you happily cross-posting for weeks. g

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)



  #170   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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"Gunner" wrote in message
...

Got some cites?


Oh, I forgot to finish that thought.

"Throughout most of American political history, small metropolitan and rural
areas have tended to have higher voter turnout rates than metropolitan
areas." -- Economic Development Digest

You can see the rest of that discussion, and some related links, at:

http://www.nado.org/pubs/oct1.html

Ed Huntress




  #171   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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Default An apology

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:17:32 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 04:32:45 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:56:07 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:56:59 -0400, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:16:40 GMT, Gunner wrote:
This is the biggest problem East Coast and West Coast Liberals have
to deal with. They forget that the vast majority of the people
between, in Fly Over country, simply think those liberals, are
nutcases.

The problem with that idea is that the majority of the US population
is clustered within 200 miles of the East and West coasts. The people
in "Fly Over" country actually *are* the minority.

Gary

Actually not. Just the ones whom bother to vote. Check out the last
Census.

The distribution figures *are* from the Census.

BTW, statistically, the people in "Fly Over" country are more likely
to vote than the teeming underclasses of the major metropolitan
areas on or near the coasts. It is only because there are so many
fewer people in "Fly Over" country that the popular vote tends to be
dominated by the metropolitan areas on both coasts.

Gary


Got some cites?


It depends on what you want "cites" of. Around 47% of the US population
lives in the states that border both oceans. But, in 2000, 80.3% of the US
population lived in metropolitan areas, defined the way the Census Bureau
defines them. There are a lot of metropolitan areas outside of the coastal
states. Is Detroit "flyover" to you, or not?

Thank you Ed. That means 53% of the folks live in Fly Over Country., and
yes, Detroit is in that area.
Its not part of the Beltway, or the Seatle/San Diego strip. In Here Be
Dragons land..and having spent much time in Detroit..Here Be Dragons is
about right...G


Voting percentages vary widely. Arizona is the lowest of the mainland
states, with 42.3% of the voting-age population (VAP) turning out for the
2000 Presidential election. Minnesota was the highest, at 68.8%. You can see
the state-by-state results at:

http://www.fec.gov/pages/2000turnout/reg&to00.htm

That's the Federal Election Commission. For the population figures I listed
above, see the Census Bureau site. There's enough statistics there to keep
you happily cross-posting for weeks. g


Ive been there many times before..which is why I asked Gary for cites
G. I respect him too much to tell him straight out he was wrong ...

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin
  #172   Report Post  
Spehro Pefhany
 
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Default An apology

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:00:19 GMT, the renowned "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

You should look at it from the other end of the telescope, Mark. All any of
us do is supply services, unless we're farmers. "Tangible goods" are just
services bundled into convenient packages. Your can opener provides the
service of opening cans, not of delighting your artistic sensibilities. g


Hmm.. what would you make of one like this one?
http://www.designstore.com/alcancanop.html

At $40.00, it's at least 85% delighting artistic sensibilities and
only 15% opening cans (compared to my choice, the classic SwingAway®)

;-)

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
  #173   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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Default An apology

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:51:14 GMT, Lewis Hartswick
pixelated:

jim rozen wrote:

we're all going to be flipping burgers at McDs soon.


What bothers me (not realy since I'm retired) is if everyone is
"flipping burgers" who is left to buy them. Just us retired folks
who are on a low fat diet? :-)


No, not them. Retired folks are smart and know better than
to eat that crap.


--------------------------------------------
-- I'm in touch with my Inner Curmudgeon. --
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
================================================== ==========
  #174   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
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Default An apology

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , "Ed

says...

The second thing to consider is that manufactured goods are really

"packaged
services." You don't buy a car to display as sculpture in your library.

You
buy it to get you from place to place, to provide the service of
transportation.


OK, but thinking about this more, there is some
coninuum. For example on the one end there is
a car manufacturer who ships cars to end users.

Then there is also the OK Cab Company, who provides
the *exact* same end service (transportation), albeit
with a very different boundary conditions.

Cars: you own, you maintain, you fuel, you drive, available
whenever you want. Two-way by nature.

Taxis: they own, they maintain, they fuel, they drive,
restricted on availability. Can be two-way or one way.

But I would think that anyone would say that a taxi
company is near one extreme of the continuum, and
GM is at the far other end.


Yes, it's complicated in practice. But it's a useful way to clear your head
of the mistaken idea that only goods (and ag products, and mined products)
can create "wealth." Ask the president of Goldman Sachs. He probably never
built a thing, and he has lots of wealth. g

Goods tend to go to consumers for non-business purposes, in which case they
provide their service directly; or to businesses, as capital equipment or as
consumables, like pencils to an accountant. So they're almost always an
essential part of providing some service, and most services can't be
provided without some products to help the process.

But if you're a hamburger flipper, most of what you need is a spatula. If
you're an airline, you may need a bunch of 767s.

This subject usually comes up in the context of thinking about what the net
economic effect is of a negative balance of trade. And the answer is, the
trade balance itself doesn't give you the answer. It's complicated...


There *is* a difference there. Besides, thinking about
that aspect some more, some folks *do* buy vehicles
as sculptures!


Not in my neighborhood, except for the Ford "**** You" SUV parked across the
street. g

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)



  #175   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:00:19 GMT, the renowned "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

You should look at it from the other end of the telescope, Mark. All any

of
us do is supply services, unless we're farmers. "Tangible goods" are just
services bundled into convenient packages. Your can opener provides the
service of opening cans, not of delighting your artistic sensibilities.

g

Hmm.. what would you make of one like this one?
http://www.designstore.com/alcancanop.html

At $40.00, it's at least 85% delighting artistic sensibilities and
only 15% opening cans (compared to my choice, the classic SwingAway®)


This is a good example of what a mature industrial economy does when it can
no longer think of anything useful to make, that people don't already have
in such quantities that they're selling their used ones to each other at
flea markets. g

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)





  #176   Report Post  
John T. McCracken
 
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Default An apology


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.net...

"Uncle_Phil" wrote in message
...
((Snip))


The health of any economy is primarily a function of the velocity
of money. The more rapidly it changes hands, and the more hands
through which it passes, the more robust the economy. It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary


Hmmmm.... The ghost of Carlo Ponzi is alive and well???


Gary's statement is essentially correct, or at least a lot more correct

than
the idea that an economy's health and wealth is based on extraction
(mining), agriculture, and manufacturing. Those are the things we often
hear, but they're the result of some misunderstandings.

Two things to consider he Since the time of Adam Smith (late 18th
century), the basis of modern economics has been the understanding that a
country's wealth is the sum of its outputs -- goods and services

combined --
in a given period of time. Thus, we see GDP and GNP as the most common
measures of wealth in the field of economics. GDP should be in approximate
balance with the product of the money supply and its turnover rate, which

is
also known as the velocity of money.


The great given, and I am an absolute expert here so pay attention, is that
the velocity of money is increased approx. tenfold when a teenage girl is
present in the household!

JTMcC.



The second thing to consider is that manufactured goods are really

"packaged
services." You don't buy a car to display as sculpture in your library.

You
buy it to get you from place to place, to provide the service of
transportation. Manufactured goods tend to be very efficient packages of
services, but the thing you're buying when you purchase them is the

services
they provide.

So the distinction between goods and services as measures of "wealth" is

an
artificial one, which has led to many misunderstandings. Most services
interact in some way with goods -- you need hamburgers to flip if you're
going to provide the service of flipping and cooking hamburgers. But, in
economic terms, it doesn't matter where those goods come from. And it
requires fewer goods to stimulate demand for more services all of the

time.

That's why the US economy continues to grow even as the portion of GDP
represented by manufactured goods continues to decline. It's now down to
just over 10% of our economy.

Ed Huntress




  #177   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default An apology

In article , "John says...

also known as the velocity of money.


The great given, and I am an absolute expert here so pay attention, is that
the velocity of money is increased approx. tenfold when a teenage girl is
present in the household!


LOL. Also the velocity of the hot water through the
showerhead!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #179   Report Post  
charles krin
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:17:15 GMT, Ted Edwards wrote:

The designed purpose of any gun ever made is to kill or maim in the
most efficient manner, clearly no other object comes into this
category!!


Rubish! What do you do with a sword?

Ted


or with the hypervelocity light gas gun that NASA developed to test
space shielding?

ck
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)
  #180   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default An apology

In article , "Mark says...

Perhaps you are right, Ed. I'll be the first to admit I am not an expert on
this, and you have spent a lot of time and energy examining the situation.


Geeze, Mark. How can you hope to match the posts of Lennie if
you keep making remarks like that? Even worse yet, what if
one day you opened up a post from him, and found the same words
in there, but substitute 'gunner' for 'ed.'

I think they would have to scrape us both up off the floor with
a spatula.

This is I think what does amaze me, how all different kinds of
posters can co-exist on this ng - with you and your tolerance
and deference apparently at one end of the spectrum!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================



  #181   Report Post  
John T. McCracken
 
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"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
jim rozen wrote:

In article , "John says...


also known as the velocity of money.

The great given, and I am an absolute expert here so pay attention, is

that
the velocity of money is increased approx. tenfold when a teenage girl

is
present in the household!



LOL. Also the velocity of the hot water through the
showerhead!


And the bandwidth over the phone and DSL line.


Yup, those too!

JTMcC.






  #182   Report Post  
Mark Winlund
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology


"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , "Mark says...

Perhaps you are right, Ed. I'll be the first to admit I am not an expert

on
this, and you have spent a lot of time and energy examining the

situation.

Geeze, Mark. How can you hope to match the posts of Lennie if
you keep making remarks like that? Even worse yet, what if
one day you opened up a post from him, and found the same words
in there, but substitute 'gunner' for 'ed.'

I think they would have to scrape us both up off the floor with
a spatula.

This is I think what does amaze me, how all different kinds of
posters can co-exist on this ng - with you and your tolerance
and deference apparently at one end of the spectrum!

Jim



LOL! Sorry, I'll try to do better! Perhap Lennie can give me some
lessons.....

Seriously, I wish I understood it better. There is so much mis-information
floating around, especially in economics. Most of it is similar to Alice in
Wonderland as far as common sense goes. While Ed and I disagree on a number
of subjects, I suspect we are not very far apart on this one, especially
regarding the serious consequences for our nation.

Thanks for the kind words.

Regards,

Mark


  #183   Report Post  
Ken Davey
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology


"Mark Winlund" wrote in message
...

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , "Mark says...

Perhaps you are right, Ed. I'll be the first to admit I am not an

expert
on
this, and you have spent a lot of time and energy examining the

situation.

Geeze, Mark. How can you hope to match the posts of Lennie if
you keep making remarks like that? Even worse yet, what if
one day you opened up a post from him, and found the same words
in there, but substitute 'gunner' for 'ed.'

I think they would have to scrape us both up off the floor with
a spatula.

This is I think what does amaze me, how all different kinds of
posters can co-exist on this ng - with you and your tolerance
and deference apparently at one end of the spectrum!

Jim



LOL! Sorry, I'll try to do better! Perhap Lennie can give me some
lessons.....

Seriously, I wish I understood it better. There is so much

mis-information
floating around, especially in economics. Most of it is similar to Alice

in
Wonderland as far as common sense goes. While Ed and I disagree on a

number
of subjects, I suspect we are not very far apart on this one, especially
regarding the serious consequences for our nation.

Thanks for the kind words.

Regards,

Mark

Check out this url
http://www.unescap.org/pdd/publicati...in2002/ch2.pdf

Unfortunately it is in pdf format which I do find annoying. It is one
examination of the economics being discussed in this thread.

Regards.
Ken.


  #184   Report Post  
Tim Williams
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

"charles krin" wrote in message
...
hmmm...knives, axes, hammers....


Knives cut (anything you want.. doens't have to be meat).
Axes chop wood.
Hammers drive nails.
Try again.

Tim

--
In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!"
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms


  #185   Report Post  
Eddy Wells
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

Gary Coffman wrote in message
The health of any economy is primarily a function of the velocity
of money. The more rapidly it changes hands, and the more hands
through which it passes, the more robust the economy. It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary


You hit the nail on the head, Gary

The Republicans want to sit on all the money and let it trickle
down to the rest of the people...

Big business is squeezing little businesses and raping them by
taking all the profit, then spinning of whats left. Laying off
people to improve their profit on paper...

The Gunslinger destroyed Iraq for Exxon and Haliburton.
Tricky Dick is in the backseat at Haliburton...

If they would pass some of the money around, people like
Gunner would be alot better off.

Eddy Wells
Conroe,Texas


  #186   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:44:34 -0700, "Mark Winlund" wrote:
Perhaps you are right, Ed. I'll be the first to admit I am not an expert on
this, and you have spent a lot of time and energy examining the situation.
That being said, I do know that there is an awful lot of misery out there
due to our losing manufacturing jobs to places like China. I fear for my
kid's (and his kid's) future. He's no dummy, and the employment situation
looks very bleak with very little improvement in sight.


It looks bleak if he aspires to an assembly line job. Those jobs, the
one's not being automated out of existence, are being exported to
other countries. There are a number of reasons for that, not the least
of which was the union demands of the last half century which drove
up the costs of semi-skilled labor far beyond its economic value.

But if he aspires to a skilled service job, there are plenty to be found.
The medical field is so short handed that underqualified third worlders
are being imported to fill positions. If he trains to be a medical technician,
pharmacist, or nurse, he'll never want for a job.

Even the small field of broadcasting is desperate for skilled technicians,
and the pay is quite good. I could get him a firm job offer tomorrow if he
has the right skills and aptitude for the work.

For less skilled work, agriculture is begging for workers, even the
importation of large numbers of illegals hasn't filled the need. Of
course the pay isn't great, and the work is hard, but that's the way
it is with low skill labor.

Gary

  #187   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

On 24 Jul 2003 22:58:32 -0700, (Eddy Wells)
wrote:

Gary Coffman wrote in message
The health of any economy is primarily a function of the velocity
of money. The more rapidly it changes hands, and the more hands
through which it passes, the more robust the economy. It doesn't
really matter what jobs people do to make the velocity of money
high. The notion that wealth is only measured in tangible goods
output is primitive, and a fundamentally flawed way of measuring
the health of a modern economy.

Gary


You hit the nail on the head, Gary

The Republicans want to sit on all the money and let it trickle
down to the rest of the people...

Cites?

Big business is squeezing little businesses and raping them by
taking all the profit, then spinning of whats left. Laying off
people to improve their profit on paper...

Seems to me, thats a bipartisan tactic. Need the cites?

The Gunslinger destroyed Iraq for Exxon and Haliburton.
Tricky Dick is in the backseat at Haliburton...


Hint, at any time, the US could have eased the restrictions on Oil for
Food, etc etc and gotten the oil for Exxon and Haliburton (whom doesnt
sell oil btw..they are producers and service company) for a hell of a
lot cheaper than tis gonna cost them now, with much bigger profits and
better press.
Where do you clods come up with this trash?

If they would pass some of the money around, people like
Gunner would be alot better off.

Eddy Wells
Conroe,Texas


Eddy, you should know better than this, you being oil field trash just
like me. You been listening to too much lefty propaganda and not
thinking enough.

Gunner

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty
is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
-- Ben Franklin
  #188   Report Post  
Ed Huntress
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

"Mark Winlund" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote

You should look at it from the other end of the telescope, Mark. All any

of
us do is supply services, unless we're farmers. "Tangible goods" are

just
services bundled into convenient packages. Your can opener provides the
service of opening cans, not of delighting your artistic sensibilities.

g

Ed Huntress



Perhaps you are right, Ed. I'll be the first to admit I am not an expert

on
this, and you have spent a lot of time and energy examining the situation.
That being said, I do know that there is an awful lot of misery out there
due to our losing manufacturing jobs to places like China. I fear for my
kid's (and his kid's) future. He's no dummy, and the employment situation
looks very bleak with very little improvement in sight.

I have closely followed your articles on the subject.

Regards,

Mark



I'm sure you realize that I'm not pointing this out in order to support the
idea that manufacturing doesn't matter, Mark. The point is that the
relationship between goods and services is a complex one, and that economic
arguments have to be thought through before they'll hold any water.

Many of the arguments in favor of manufacturing are poorly thought through
and, thus, they are poorly argued. When you're arguing with free-trade
ideologues, like the President's Council of Economic Advisors, it's no fun
to get shot down before you utter your second sentence. The arguments in
favor of encouraging a strong manufacturing base in the US are powerful
ones -- if they're based on an understanding of such things as this complex
relationship.

It isn't easy and, when you get involved in it, you quickly reach a point
where theories are being tossed around with little thought being given to
the practical realities behind them. I don't try to argue economic theories
with the economists but I, like you and the other readers of our magazine,
can teach them a few things about the realities.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)



  #189   Report Post  
Charles A. Sherwood
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology


the velocity of money is increased approx. tenfold when a teenage girl

is
present in the household!


Dont forget the velocity of the cars on the street. (boyfriends)

  #191   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

In article , Gunner says...

Hint, at any time, the US could have eased the restrictions on Oil for
Food, etc etc and gotten the oil for Exxon and Haliburton (whom doesnt
sell oil btw..they are producers and service company) for a hell of a
lot cheaper than tis gonna cost them now, with much bigger profits and
better press.


It's not just about getting profits for those companies (and the
expenses of the war are not charged to them, btw) but just as
importantly, to secure control over the flow of resources that
go to the rest of the world.

We now have some semblance of control over appx. 1/3 of the oil
that china imports, for example. France, Germany, Russia, all
rely on Iraq oil to some degree.

Exxon-Mobil *does* sell oil, and I think Ed's comments about the
thin distinction between goods and services could be appropriately
applied here.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #192   Report Post  
Kevin Carney
 
Posts: n/a
Default An apology

Shooting trophies in the living room make good deterents !!
So do the deer and turkey trophies come to think of it !

If I ever see any of those things idling outside my house,
it will be time to use those tetrahedral tire tread perforaters!

Jim




  #193   Report Post  
John Flanagan
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:47:51 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"charles krin" wrote in message
.. .
hmmm...knives, axes, hammers....


Knives cut (anything you want.. doens't have to be meat).
Axes chop wood.
Hammers drive nails.
Try again.


Guns protect innocent people from criminals. Like any tool, they can
be used for good or evil. When Tony says "The designed purpose of any
gun ever made is to kill or maim in the most efficient manner" he's
clearly revealing his bias as if killing people was always a bad thing
:^).

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.
  #194   Report Post  
Tim Williams
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
Guns protect innocent people from criminals. Like any tool, they can
be used for good or evil. When Tony says "The designed purpose of any
gun ever made is to kill or maim in the most efficient manner" he's
clearly revealing his bias as if killing people was always a bad thing
:^).


And besides, just shoot 'em in the arm or leg, medical technology is
good enough these days that the perp will survive... though wether or
not you'll get your ass sued somehow is now the question. :^)

Tim

--
In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!"
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms


  #197   Report Post  
erniegalts
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:14:11 GMT, "Mysterion"
wrote:


"erniegalts" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:37:54 GMT, "Mysterion"
wrote:


"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
. com...
Gunner is the ****ing joke, a subhuman in every respect.

In general I agree.


I wouldn't go this far. Other than his present tendency to tell
defamatory lies about others he has shown himself to be a fairly
decent human being. Or at least he was prior to Y2K. Perhaps he
isn't in full control of himself these days?


You must understand that I mean "subhuman" only in the ethical and moral
context.
He is bankrupt in both.


Oh, o.k. in that sense would agree.

I like to think its a conditioned response, like Pavlov's dogs, and so, he
is no worse that a lot of the sheeple.


He used to be smart enough to not depend on unthinking conditioned
reflex responses. Of course, perhaps he doesn't really believe what
he says these days and is just seeking approval of his extremist
mates.

(snip)

Quit your
goddam crossposting from drivel and wacko groups. This is
rec.crafts.metalworking, not alt.sicko.

So survivalism is "drivel" and wacko"?
I'm sure the Federal Government and the Red Cross would be interested to
discover that their recommendations are "drivel" and "wacko".


Does either organization recommend "misc.survivalism" as a usenet
group?


Not to my knowledge.
But the basics of survivalism (store some food, water, alternative cooking,
light and heat arangements, have a plan to get the hell out of Dodge if
neccessary) have been echoed by both agencies.

Perhaps they could or even should have prior to Y2K. However it now
seems to have mainly become an extremist political group.


I've noted that, but have difficulty in restraining myself when it comes to
opposing evil/stupidity.


Likewise

At one time, members actually offered support to one another rather
than trying to lie and defame one another.

...But, of course, an "_ubermenschen_" such as "gunner" would never
be so weak and human, would he?


Goofer has a lot of problems.


Obviously, but at least some are self-inflicted. He doesn't _have_ to
tell defamatory lies about others. This would seem to be free choice
on his part. Unless, of course, he is acting under orders.

Then too, there is always the possibility that he doesn't consider
accusing someone of being a self confessed criminal pedophile as a
serious accusation. Perhaps pedophiles are welcomed or encouraged in
California?

They certainly aren't in Australia. Here known pedophiles are
sometimes murdered. Possibly the only thing that could get one
lynched these days.










"_Magna est veritas et praevalebit"_
(Truth is mighty and will prevail).

erniegalts
[Australia]
[misc.survivalism]
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