Hi,

I need to fit piston rings to an old Wolseley single cylinder engine.
I've removed the piston and have the new rings ready, but want to make
sure I don't scratch the piston or damage the rings in the process. Can
anyone offer some advice about what is the best method for
removing/installing piston rings? I remember someone telling me a long
time ago that new rings could be easily installled by wrapping a sheet
of thin copper around the piston and sliding the rings down over it.
What do people recommend? Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Best wishes,

Chris Tidy

Actually that sounds like good advice, the "official" tool for compressing
the piston rings and installing them looks a lot like a thin sheet of metal
wrapped around the piston and then tightened "Strap / handle". and then the
piston is pushed down. I did see something on TV the other day about setting
the gap on piston rings, does anyone have any experience doing this???

Rings are easy to work down over a piston into their respective
positons without any tools if your only doing a piston or two on
occassion. If I was in the business of overhauling engines I would
invest in a ring expandcer for installing rings as well as a ring
com[ressor for compressing them around the piston so you can slip them
in their cylinders.......As to ring gap, each and evey spec engine has
its own ring gap. Ring gapa is the space between the rings whrn the
ring is in the cylinder. Its necessary to have the correct gap for
retaings sufficient sealing area for compression and sufficient space
to keep them from expanding when hot and possibly scrubbing and
breaking...so check your manual for what the ring gap is. Install or
place a ring in the cylinder without it being installe don a piston,
and measure gap between rings ends......to small a gap, just file it a
b it to get the proper gap measurement..If its too large check to make
sure you have proper rings, or perhaps your cylinder is worn so it
needs reboring and fitting of next size piston and rings.........

On Mon, 2 May 2005 18:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

===Hi,
===
===I need to fit piston rings to an old Wolseley single cylinder engine.
===I've removed the piston and have the new rings ready, but want to make
===sure I don't scratch the piston or damage the rings in the process. Can
===anyone offer some advice about what is the best method for
===removing/installing piston rings? I remember someone telling me a long
===time ago that new rings could be easily installled by wrapping a sheet
===of thin copper around the piston and sliding the rings down over it.
===What do people recommend? Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
===
===Best wishes,
===
===Chris Tidy


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

do not align the ring ends, stagger them around the piston
follow any alignment instructions you got with the rings.

use a ring compressor
coat the piston and rings and bore with gear oil like 80W
put the compressor on the piston,
tighten up the strap fairly tight
line up the rod in the bore and have the piston facing the right
direction
tap it down carfully using the end of a wooden hammer

the ring end gap is fairly important, but if your just using std rings
in a std bore, you have no problems.
The ring end gap should be measured with the ring in the bore at the
top of its travel and the bottom.

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I need to fit piston rings to an old Wolseley single cylinder engine. I've
removed the piston and have the new rings ready, but want to make sure I
don't scratch the piston or damage the rings in the process. Can anyone
offer some advice about what is the best method for removing/installing
piston rings? I remember someone telling me a long time ago that new rings
could be easily installled by wrapping a sheet of thin copper around the
piston and sliding the rings down over it. What do people recommend? Any
suggestions would be much appreciated.

Fitting piston rings by hand is the easiest way. Just gently hook one end
down onto the piston, and work your way around to get the complete ring onto
the top off the piston. Then gently work it down the piston. Obivously
you'll have to get the first ring past at least one groove, and the easiest
way to do that, is to get the ring just above the groove, then hook one end
down and over the groove, and work around the piston just the same as
getting the ring onto the piston.

Ooops, should off put removing them first.
Removing them can be done by using a couple small screwdrivers. Just hook
the end off the ring out with one, then with the other just work you're way
around the ring with the other, gradually moving the end up the piston and
out off the groove.

Unless you're extremely harsh, you won't do any damage to the piston. To get
an idea off how strong the rings are, once you get one off the old ones off,
break it. Personally I think handling piston rings is just like handling a
sheet off glass. You've got to be firm but gentle.

Also, one of the important tests during a ring job is to measure the ring
gap at the top and bottom of the cylinder (slip a ring into the cylinder,
and then measure the gap clearance with a feeler gauge set. Most engines
will develop some taper over time (wider at the top where less oil gets),
and this should be honed out during the ring job. If there is too much
taper, the rings will "pump" oil, even if the cylinder walls have been
cleaned up and new rings installed.

The last engine I did (79 Honda Civic CVCC) had over 0.040 taper (!) but I
was just interested in getting it to pass inspection so that I could sell it
as a car, rather than scrap. I just broke the glaze on the cylinders and
put the new rings in without touching the taper. Worked fine, passed
inspection, didn't smoke. I told the guy that bought it that it was an old
engine, and would probably need a rebuild soon. I figure the $300 in parts
enabled me to get $800 for the car instead of $50 for scrap, so I was money
ahead. Boring out the cylinders would have cost more than the car was
worth. I wonder how many miles the buyer got before the "ring job" died.
My guess is he got well over $800 worth of driving out of the car.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"~Roy~" wrote in message
...
Rings are easy to work down over a piston into their respective
positons without any tools if your only doing a piston or two on
occassion. If I was in the business of overhauling engines I would
invest in a ring expandcer for installing rings as well as a ring
com[ressor for compressing them around the piston so you can slip them
in their cylinders.......As to ring gap, each and evey spec engine has
its own ring gap. Ring gapa is the space between the rings whrn the
ring is in the cylinder. Its necessary to have the correct gap for
retaings sufficient sealing area for compression and sufficient space
to keep them from expanding when hot and possibly scrubbing and
breaking...so check your manual for what the ring gap is. Install or
place a ring in the cylinder without it being installe don a piston,
and measure gap between rings ends......to small a gap, just file it a
b it to get the proper gap measurement..If its too large check to make
sure you have proper rings, or perhaps your cylinder is worn so it
needs reboring and fitting of next size piston and rings.........

On Mon, 2 May 2005 18:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

===Hi,
===
===I need to fit piston rings to an old Wolseley single cylinder
engine.
===I've removed the piston and have the new rings ready, but want to
make
===sure I don't scratch the piston or damage the rings in the process.
Can
===anyone offer some advice about what is the best method for
===removing/installing piston rings? I remember someone telling me a
long
===time ago that new rings could be easily installled by wrapping a
sheet
===of thin copper around the piston and sliding the rings down over it.
===What do people recommend? Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
===
===Best wishes,
===
===Chris Tidy


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

Fitting piston rings by hand is the easiest way. Just gently hook one end
down onto the piston, and work your way around to get the complete ring onto
the top off the piston. Then gently work it down the piston. Obivously

I highly recommend a ring expander to install the rings on the piston
and a ring compressor to install the piston in the cylinder.

I tried to install rings on a small piston by hand and I promptly broke
the ring. That was on a model engine with CI rings. Obviouly steel rings
are tougher. On model engines I wrapped some thin brass around the
piston and used a cable tie to compress the rings enough to slide them
into the cylinder.

use a ring compressor

These are quite inexpensive for a good brand.
You can also use a big hose clamp, but that adds some friction.

the ring end gap is fairly important, but if your just using std rings
in a std bore, you have no problems.

Maybe. Some rings REQUIRE fitting and are purposely made oversize

The old rule of thumb for automotive engines was .002" per inch of bore.
Might not be valid for an air-cooled engine.
If no specs are available from the Mfg or the ring maker, look for
similar engines with similar bore and ring size, from the same era, and
see what their end-gap was.

"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in message
...
SNIP
| The last engine I did (79 Honda Civic CVCC) had over 0.040 taper (!) but I
| was just interested in getting it to pass inspection so that I could sell
it
| as a car, rather than scrap. I just broke the glaze on the cylinders and
| put the new rings in without touching the taper. Worked fine, passed
| inspection, didn't smoke. I told the guy that bought it that it was an
old
| engine, and would probably need a rebuild soon. I figure the $300 in
parts
| enabled me to get $800 for the car instead of $50 for scrap, so I was
money
| ahead. Boring out the cylinders would have cost more than the car was
| worth. I wonder how many miles the buyer got before the "ring job" died.
| My guess is he got well over $800 worth of driving out of the car.
|
| --
| Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

There is a new bit of thinking when it comes to refitting rings onto
your car. That is, since the ring eventually makes the cylinder walls
glaze/polish within a few hundred miles, why have the rings grind away at
the rough cylinder walls and introduce the metal into your oiling system?
Dust polish them as fine as you can and call it good. If it's clean and
round, the rings will seal up just fine, with lots less "break in" time.
New engines aren't made with crosshatch anymore for similar reasons. One of
the engines I did that way just went into service and its runs just fine,
even though I haven't done a compression test to it since it drove away.
I came across it on the web while looking for the right oil to cleanup
the bores in a couple engines I was working on. Very interesting, and the
reasoning was sound.

"Chuck Sherwood" wrote in message
...
Fitting piston rings by hand is the easiest way. Just gently hook one end
down onto the piston, and work your way around to get the complete ring
onto
the top off the piston. Then gently work it down the piston. Obivously

I highly recommend a ring expander to install the rings on the piston
and a ring compressor to install the piston in the cylinder.

I tried to install rings on a small piston by hand and I promptly broke
the ring. That was on a model engine with CI rings. Obviouly steel rings
are tougher. On model engines I wrapped some thin brass around the
piston and used a cable tie to compress the rings enough to slide them
into the cylinder.

You definatley need a piston ring compressor to get the piston back in the
cylinder.

I have never broke a piston ring, when removing or installing them on the
piston.
Only time (other when I've wanted to break an old ring to clean the grooves)
i've broken a ring, is when I was rebuilding an engine that used the
multi-part oil control rings with the two thin rings and a wavy ring
inbetween (there is a proper name for them but I can't remember just now).
The piston ring compressor slipped up from the top off the engine block, and
one off the thin rings popped out. First I knew about it was when I seen the
bit piston ring fall out onto the bench. Which just so happened to be the
engine that I knocked the piston cooling oil jet off, when trying to get
another piston in. I still shudder thinking about rebuilding that damn
engine.

Moray Cuthill wrote:
"Chuck Sherwood" wrote in message
...

Fitting piston rings by hand is the easiest way. Just gently hook one end
down onto the piston, and work your way around to get the complete ring
onto
the top off the piston. Then gently work it down the piston. Obivously

I highly recommend a ring expander to install the rings on the piston
and a ring compressor to install the piston in the cylinder.

I tried to install rings on a small piston by hand and I promptly broke
the ring. That was on a model engine with CI rings. Obviouly steel rings
are tougher. On model engines I wrapped some thin brass around the
piston and used a cable tie to compress the rings enough to slide them
into the cylinder.


You definatley need a piston ring compressor to get the piston back in the
cylinder.

I have never broke a piston ring, when removing or installing them on the
piston.
Only time (other when I've wanted to break an old ring to clean the grooves)
i've broken a ring, is when I was rebuilding an engine that used the
multi-part oil control rings with the two thin rings and a wavy ring
inbetween (there is a proper name for them but I can't remember just now).
The piston ring compressor slipped up from the top off the engine block, and
one off the thin rings popped out. First I knew about it was when I seen the
bit piston ring fall out onto the bench. Which just so happened to be the
engine that I knocked the piston cooling oil jet off, when trying to get
another piston in. I still shudder thinking about rebuilding that damn
engine.

Thanks for all the advice so far. I just took another look at the piston
rings tonight. My engine's got one of those oil control rings (it isn't
the wavy type; it has slots cut in it) and all four rings are cast iron,
so it looks like I need to be careful. I'll look for stores that sell
ring compressors and expanders.

Best wishes,

Chris

Autozone will rent you the tools. You have to buy it, and then you
simply bring it back for a full credit.

I always lightly honed the cylinders with a fine stone. Are you saying
not to do this?
The worry here is the rings wont seat properly and then the engine will
use too much oil.
What I have also found is engines that are well maintained on oil
today, never seem to have a ridge.
And I have also noticed the cylinders look very good. I resealed the
heads on my 1993 350 with 170000 miles and there was no ridge, the
cross marks were still there.
I also like to use synthetic oil, but I think the oils today are really
much better.

"~Roy~" wrote in message
...
Rings are easy to work down over a piston into their respective
positons without any tools if your only doing a piston or two on
occassion. If I was in the business of overhauling engines I would
invest in a ring expandcer for installing rings as well as a ring
com[ressor for compressing them around the piston so you can slip them
in their cylinders.......As to ring gap, each and evey spec engine has
its own ring gap. Ring gapa is the space between the rings whrn the
ring is in the cylinder. Its necessary to have the correct gap for
retaings sufficient sealing area for compression and sufficient space
to keep them from expanding when hot and possibly scrubbing and
breaking...so check your manual for what the ring gap is. Install or
place a ring in the cylinder without it being installe don a piston,
and measure gap between rings ends......to small a gap, just file it a
b it to get the proper gap measurement..If its too large check to make
sure you have proper rings, or perhaps your cylinder is worn so it
needs reboring and fitting of next size piston and rings.........

On Mon, 2 May 2005 18:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

===Hi,
===
===I need to fit piston rings to an old Wolseley single cylinder
engine.
===I've removed the piston and have the new rings ready, but want to
make
===sure I don't scratch the piston or damage the rings in the process.
Can
===anyone offer some advice about what is the best method for
===removing/installing piston rings? I remember someone telling me a
long
===time ago that new rings could be easily installled by wrapping a
sheet
===of thin copper around the piston and sliding the rings down over it.
===What do people recommend? Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
===
===Best wishes,
===
===Chris Tidy


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

One other little trick nobody's mentioned.

When you check the gap, you need to have the ring in the cylinder absolutely
square. The easy way to do it is to put the ring into the cylinder and then
push it down a little using a piston (sans rings) as a tool. That way, your
measurement of the gap (with a feeler guage) will be accurate.

Jerry

On Mon, 2 May 2005 15:02:43 -0400, "HotRod"
wrote:

Actually that sounds like good advice, the "official" tool for compressing
the piston rings and installing them looks a lot like a thin sheet of metal
wrapped around the piston and then tightened "Strap / handle". and then the
piston is pushed down. I did see something on TV the other day about setting
the gap on piston rings, does anyone have any experience doing this???

Two tools, two jobs.

You need a ring speader to put the ring on the piston, then you need a
compressor to stuff them into the hole. Shim stock HAS been used for
both jobs, but the right tool is available from KD (among others) for
a very reasonable price - and you can usually borrow or rent them from
most of the DIY autoparts suppliers (like AutoZone etc)
Nothing beats having the right tool, and knowing how to use it.

On Mon, 02 May 2005 20:29:59 GMT, "carl mciver"
wrote:

"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in message
...
SNIP
| The last engine I did (79 Honda Civic CVCC) had over 0.040 taper (!) but I
| was just interested in getting it to pass inspection so that I could sell
it
| as a car, rather than scrap. I just broke the glaze on the cylinders and
| put the new rings in without touching the taper. Worked fine, passed
| inspection, didn't smoke. I told the guy that bought it that it was an
old
| engine, and would probably need a rebuild soon. I figure the $300 in
parts
| enabled me to get $800 for the car instead of $50 for scrap, so I was
money
| ahead. Boring out the cylinders would have cost more than the car was
| worth. I wonder how many miles the buyer got before the "ring job" died.
| My guess is he got well over $800 worth of driving out of the car.
|
| --
| Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

There is a new bit of thinking when it comes to refitting rings onto
your car. That is, since the ring eventually makes the cylinder walls
glaze/polish within a few hundred miles, why have the rings grind away at
the rough cylinder walls and introduce the metal into your oiling system?
Dust polish them as fine as you can and call it good. If it's clean and
round, the rings will seal up just fine, with lots less "break in" time.
New engines aren't made with crosshatch anymore for similar reasons. One of
the engines I did that way just went into service and its runs just fine,
even though I haven't done a compression test to it since it drove away.
I came across it on the web while looking for the right oil to cleanup
the bores in a couple engines I was working on. Very interesting, and the
reasoning was sound.


Risky.
They need to be DEAD ROUND and DEAD STRAIGHT - and then they cannot be
too smooth.
Todays engines are built with a high precision micro-inch finish on
both the rings and the bores - and they still have to wear in - but
only a tiny fraction of what was common only a few years ago.
If the bore is too smoth, the rings will never seat, and you will have
an engine that produces high HCs, uses oil, and is not as "good" as it
should be.

On 2 May 2005 14:48:38 -0700, "
wrote:

I always lightly honed the cylinders with a fine stone. Are you saying
not to do this?
The worry here is the rings wont seat properly and then the engine will
use too much oil.
What I have also found is engines that are well maintained on oil
today, never seem to have a ridge.
And I have also noticed the cylinders look very good. I resealed the
heads on my 1993 350 with 170000 miles and there was no ridge, the
cross marks were still there.
I also like to use synthetic oil, but I think the oils today are really
much better.

When I pulled the engine from my TransSport just over 2 years ago at
275,000KM there was no cyl ridge, and the crosshatch could still be
seen - but it had been massively overheated and the cyls were VERY
glazed. Not a chance it would pass the Sniffer test.
It had been so hot it tightened right up and quit - and started just
fine after it cooled off - yet no scoring on the cyl walls. A bit of
aluminum transferred to the cyl walls below the ring travel, but no
gouging at all.

wrote in message
ups.com...
| I always lightly honed the cylinders with a fine stone. Are you saying
| not to do this?
| The worry here is the rings wont seat properly and then the engine will
| use too much oil.
| What I have also found is engines that are well maintained on oil
| today, never seem to have a ridge.
| And I have also noticed the cylinders look very good. I resealed the
| heads on my 1993 350 with 170000 miles and there was no ridge, the
| cross marks were still there.
| I also like to use synthetic oil, but I think the oils today are really
| much better.

I tore down an engine that I rebuilt myself over 160,000 miles prior.
NO ridge. Bearings looked awesome as well. Kendall 20W-50 changed
regularly and cleaned by Wix filters. Not my point, though.

I looked for this article again and couldn't find it. The points made
were is that if the bore isn't square when the old pistons come out, the
rings will show it when you shove them in and check for gaps. Unless sludge
trapped the rings in place, not allowing them to rotate, the bores where the
rings will be will most likely already round enough for the rings to do
their jobs again. You can hone them round if needed, but don't leave
crosshatch behind. That crosshatch will get ground off by the rings. That
crosshatch you just took off is now grit in your engine, and very fine grit
indeed. All that effort to get the engine spotless before assembly and you
just went and tossed in a pinch of iron dust, where it will be circulated
among softer bearings, wearing everything else out along the way. Guess
what? 500 miles later, after the rings are "seated," the cylinders are
polished nice and shiny, just like you wanted to avoid! Skip the whole
mess. Seen a 500 mile oil change on a new car lately? Don't need to,
because the finish on the walls is very specific and extremely fine. Rings
don't need to seat anymore because they're made a whole lot better than they
used to be as well.

I reread it a few times because I was naturally skeptical. It all made
perfect sense, though, in a much better manner than I tried.

I think it was not mentioned because honing is a 'given'.
By all means, hone the cylinders so the new rings will break in.
- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

wrote:
I always lightly honed the cylinders with a fine stone. Are you saying
not to do this?

wrote:

I always lightly honed the cylinders with a fine stone. Are you
saying not to do this?

Rex B wrote:
I think it was not mentioned because honing is a 'given'.
By all means, hone the cylinders so the new rings will break in.
- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

Thanks for the suggestions. I just took another look another look at my
engine in the daylight. There is a small ridge at the top of the
cylinder and a minor amount of corrosion on one side of the cylinder.
Should I buy a honing tool to fit an electric drill and polish these out?

Best wishes,

Chris

Moray Cuthill wrote:

Only time (other when I've wanted to break an old ring to clean the grooves)
i've broken a ring, is when I was rebuilding an engine that used the
multi-part oil control rings with the two thin rings and a wavy ring
inbetween (there is a proper name for them but I can't remember just now).
(three-piece oil ring)

My local Snap-On truck sells ring expanders for about $7. Well worth
the price.

On Mon, 2 May 2005 20:41:34 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Moray Cuthill wrote:

Thanks for all the advice so far. I just took another look at the piston
rings tonight. My engine's got one of those oil control rings (it isn't
the wavy type; it has slots cut in it) and all four rings are cast iron,
so it looks like I need to be careful. I'll look for stores that sell
ring compressors and expanders.

Best wishes,

Chris

It's not really necessary to stagger the end gaps. They are going to
move anyways. It's not a bad idea to have them unaligned, but dont' do
it in the misbelief that they will stay that way. Unless you have
pinned rings, but that is typical only on 2-stroke engines to keep the
end of the ring from snagging in the ports.

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
wrote:

I always lightly honed the cylinders with a fine stone. Are you
saying not to do this?

Rex B wrote:
I think it was not mentioned because honing is a 'given'.
By all means, hone the cylinders so the new rings will break in.
- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

Thanks for the suggestions. I just took another look another look at my
engine in the daylight. There is a small ridge at the top of the
cylinder and a minor amount of corrosion on one side of the cylinder.
Should I buy a honing tool to fit an electric drill and polish these out?

Best wishes,

Chris


You need to rent a ridge reamer to get rid of the ridge. A hone wont do it.
At this point you would probly be better off getting the block machined. A
ridge that you can catch a finger nail is likely ~5thou so both sides gives
you a 10thou over size.
That is just fro the ridge, you might have an out of round cylinder ( the
pistons pushes down and to the side on the power stroke)
Pat

On 3 May 2005 10:54:12 -0700, jw wrote:
It's not really necessary to stagger the end gaps. They are going to
move anyways.

I'm not sure about that. I tore down a Saab engine recently with
250,000 miles on it (bulletproof inline-4 2 liter engine), and all four
pistons showed the gaps in the piston rings where the manual specified
to put them. not sure why/how, but they were. I don't know the history
of the engine, but it wasn't recently rebuilt unless they left the
sludge inside when they did it...plenty of carbon and so on.

It's not a bad idea to have them unaligned, but dont' do
it in the misbelief that they will stay that way. Unless you have
pinned rings, but that is typical only on 2-stroke engines to keep the
end of the ring from snagging in the ports.

Nope, these aren't the pinned 2-stroke Saab pistons, this was for a
4-cyl.

Always check the ring gap before installing the rings. To small a gap
will destroy the engine when the rings heat up and the ends touch.
Performance ring sets often need to be trimmed to the proper
gap..usually 0.003- 0.004 per inch of bore diameter for the top ring,
slightly less for the second ring. Oil rings don't usually need
trimming...but check anyway. Overhaul sets often times don't need
trimming, but check anyway. Unless the engine has been rebored, check
the gap on the least worn section of cylinder wall..probably the bottom
of the bore. Trim with a ring gapper or a very thin abrasive wheel like
that used on a 3" air powered cut off tool. Hand turn the disc on an
arbor with the ring ends on sides of the wheel while supporting the
ring just in from the ends. Turning by hand goes slow enough to keep an
eye on the process. If available, check the factory spec. for end gap.

HotRod wrote:
Actually that sounds like good advice, the "official" tool for
compressing
the piston rings and installing them looks a lot like a thin sheet of
metal
wrapped around the piston and then tightened "Strap / handle". and
then the
piston is pushed down. I did see something on TV the other day about
setting
the gap on piston rings, does anyone have any experience doing
this???