Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
 
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Default 1018 vs 12L14 when shaving on screw machines??

I was setting up our ancient Brown and Sharp to do some long screws.
The O.D. is .375 with 2in of 2.125 length shaved down to .162 to put an
8-32 thread on first in. They had always used 12L14 to do this and I
had mentioned trying 1018 but wondered how it would do when shaving off
all that material in one pass. My background is not production so I
didnt know how hard it would be.
I tried using the 1018 today and the finish was terrible. SO I
switched to the 12l14 to see the difference with the same cutter and
same setup. It was much better with the 12L14. We were in a real panic
to get some screws finished and shipped so I had our operator rn the
12L14. I'm wondering if 1018 is suitable to use when your using shave
tools and would I need a different angle on the cutter or what? I'm
wasng to try the 1018 again Wens or Thurset time.

  #2   Report Post  
 
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1018 isn't as crack-prone as 12L14, welds more readily and costs
less, but beyond that it sure hasn't too many advantages. 12L14 is used
as the benchmark for machinability (at 100%) with 1018 being at around
70 or 80%. If there's any way I could make 12L14 work, I'd use it. 1018
is gummier and doesn't cut nearly as nicely.
You'd need to prove to the boss that 1018 would be a better
material for this customer's screws. What are they using them in?

Dan

  #3   Report Post  
Tony
 
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You will be able to produce more parts with a better finish with the 12l14.
That alloy has been designed for screw machine use. If your customer did not
specify 1018 why would you want to use it. Your boss will be happy producing
the largest amount of parts in the shortest time.

BTW, it's called turning , not shaving. A woodworker shaves with a plane.

Tony
wrote in message
ups.com...
I was setting up our ancient Brown and Sharp to do some long screws.
The O.D. is .375 with 2in of 2.125 length shaved down to .162 to put an
8-32 thread on first in. They had always used 12L14 to do this and I
had mentioned trying 1018 but wondered how it would do when shaving off
all that material in one pass. My background is not production so I
didnt know how hard it would be.
I tried using the 1018 today and the finish was terrible. SO I
switched to the 12l14 to see the difference with the same cutter and
same setup. It was much better with the 12L14. We were in a real panic
to get some screws finished and shipped so I had our operator rn the
12L14. I'm wondering if 1018 is suitable to use when your using shave
tools and would I need a different angle on the cutter or what? I'm
wasng to try the 1018 again Wens or Thurset time.



  #4   Report Post  
Harold and Susan Vordos
 
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Default


wrote in message
ups.com...
I was setting up our ancient Brown and Sharp to do some long screws.
The O.D. is .375 with 2in of 2.125 length shaved down to .162 to put an
8-32 thread on first in. They had always used 12L14 to do this and I
had mentioned trying 1018 but wondered how it would do when shaving off
all that material in one pass. My background is not production so I
didnt know how hard it would be.
I tried using the 1018 today and the finish was terrible. SO I
switched to the 12l14 to see the difference with the same cutter and
same setup. It was much better with the 12L14. We were in a real panic
to get some screws finished and shipped so I had our operator rn the
12L14. I'm wondering if 1018 is suitable to use when your using shave
tools and would I need a different angle on the cutter or what? I'm
wasng to try the 1018 again Wens or Thurset time.


1018 is a bitch to machine, full stop. I avoid it as much as possible.
Screw machines are highly unlikely to enjoy running it. If you expect to
take light cuts and get a decent finish, you'll struggle for ever, but you
have options beyond 12L14, assuming your customer would approve the
material. You can buy 1213 or 1215 cold finished bars that are formulated
for screw machining, or 1117 and 11L17, each of which are very nice to
machine. You're not limited to 12L14.

Harold


  #6   Report Post  
D Murphy
 
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"Tony" wrote in news:J6Bbe.17692$V02.1738
@fe08.lga:

BTW, it's called turning , not shaving. A woodworker shaves with a plane.


Turning and shaving are two different things. Shaving is a very common way
to hold size accurately on a Brown & Sharpe when removing metal fron the
cross slide. When using a form tool the cross slide repeatability is not
very good. Not a big plus when making screw threads. By shaving you take
the cross slide repeatability out of the picture. The shaving tool has the
form ground on top. The tool is set off of spindle centerline (that's right
on a lathe your tool doesn't have to be on center) and is fed in from the
outside of the bar toward and past centerline. The height of the tool above
center determines the resulting diameter. Take a look here at a holder:
http://www.championscrew.com/schiltter.htm
Here is an article that does a better job than I can:
http://www.production-machining.com/...s/0503tb1.html
Here is a pic of an old Brownie:
http://www.asset-auctions.com/40518/IMG_0173.JPG


--

Dan

  #7   Report Post  
D Murphy
 
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wrote in news:1114551639.121155.28550
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

I was setting up our ancient Brown and Sharp to do some long screws.
The O.D. is .375 with 2in of 2.125 length shaved down to .162 to put an
8-32 thread on first in. They had always used 12L14 to do this and I
had mentioned trying 1018 but wondered how it would do when shaving off
all that material in one pass. My background is not production so I
didnt know how hard it would be.
I tried using the 1018 today and the finish was terrible. SO I
switched to the 12l14 to see the difference with the same cutter and
same setup. It was much better with the 12L14. We were in a real panic
to get some screws finished and shipped so I had our operator rn the
12L14. I'm wondering if 1018 is suitable to use when your using shave
tools and would I need a different angle on the cutter or what? I'm
wasng to try the 1018 again Wens or Thurset time.



If you are hell bent on 1018 then you should consider getting rid of the
shave tool and going with an inserted roller box tool mounted on the
turret. Or you could stick with the shaver and go with a thread rolling
attachment as the thread roller will spiff up the surface finish on the
threads. But if 12L14 is acceptable why change? If you want shinier parts
then get a bar of 303EZ Stainless and do a little test cutting with it. I'm
guessing that the strength of this fastener is not a big issue. Brass is
always good and can run unattended in a Brownie. Sometimes the labor
savings can offset the material cost.

--

Dan

  #8   Report Post  
D Murphy
 
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Anthony wrote in
:

To switch from 12L14 to 1018, you will probably
have to slow down on the feeds and speeds a bit.


Good point. 280 SFM for 12L14, 150 SFM for 1018. You can run Brass at 400
SFM, faster cycle time = lower cost, maybe enough to offset the higher cost
material.

--

Dan

  #9   Report Post  
Tony
 
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mea culpa

Tony

"D Murphy" wrote in message
...
"Tony" wrote in news:J6Bbe.17692$V02.1738
@fe08.lga:

BTW, it's called turning , not shaving. A woodworker shaves with a

plane.

Turning and shaving are two different things. Shaving is a very common way
to hold size accurately on a Brown & Sharpe when removing metal fron the
cross slide. When using a form tool the cross slide repeatability is not
very good. Not a big plus when making screw threads. By shaving you take
the cross slide repeatability out of the picture. The shaving tool has the
form ground on top. The tool is set off of spindle centerline (that's

right
on a lathe your tool doesn't have to be on center) and is fed in from the
outside of the bar toward and past centerline. The height of the tool

above
center determines the resulting diameter. Take a look here at a holder:
http://www.championscrew.com/schiltter.htm
Here is an article that does a better job than I can:
http://www.production-machining.com/...s/0503tb1.html
Here is a pic of an old Brownie:
http://www.asset-auctions.com/40518/IMG_0173.JPG


--

Dan



  #10   Report Post  
D Murphy
 
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Default

"Tony" wrote in news:V5Ebe.17759$V02.17421
@fe08.lga:

mea culpa


Oh hey, no problem. How would you know if you never had the misfortune of
working on a Brownie? I just figured it would make for some interesting on
topic discussion.

--

Dan



  #11   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default

In article , D Murphy says...

The shaving tool has the
form ground on top.


How is a shaving tool different than a roller box tool?

Jim


--
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please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
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  #12   Report Post  
 
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I think I was using the wrong terms. We are using a tool mounted on
the turret. It has two carbide rollers and the carbide cutter. We are
not using to cross slide for this. I've just been using the terms I had
heard for doing this.
I have almost no production experience and the owners of this place
have no experience at manufacturing. They were doing everything the way
the previous owners did. I We want to use something beside 12L14
because the cost of it 8xs 1018. This is just one of countless things
I'm involved in changing around here.
We are making screws for muzzleloaders trying to reproduce screws off
of original guns. So they have to be steel

  #13   Report Post  
D Murphy
 
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jim rozen wrote in news:d4nurp026q2
@drn.newsguy.com:

In article , D Murphy says...

The shaving tool has the
form ground on top.


How is a shaving tool different than a roller box tool?


A box tool is similar to a hollow mill in the way that it cuts. It would be
mounted in the turret and would approach the work from the end face. The
shave tool would be mounted on the cross slide (which is not a compound
slide) and would plunge into the work from the side (perpendicular to the
spindle). The box tool uses either a ground tool bit(s) or an insert. It
turns the work in a similar way that a regular turning tool does. So it can
only do a straight turn, the shave tool can put in steps, chamfers, radii,
angles, and grooves. Whatever form you can grind on the tool it will put
into the work. The box tool supports the work either with pads or rollers,
so it's a good choice for long thin sections. Somma tool makes a variety of
box tools, including one that retracts when you are pulling it off of the
work.
http://www.sommatool.com/catalog/qui...e/accuset1.asp
Boyar-Schultz makes them as well. This pic of theirs is probably a little
better. http://www.detroitautomatic.com/tooling.htm
The OP is probably using a shave tool for speed. Since it will put in the
entire profile of the part in one pass. But with a long thin part like he
is doing chatter, deflection, and galling can be a problem, especially with
a tougher material.


--

Dan

  #14   Report Post  
D Murphy
 
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wrote in news:1114623076.356736.313220
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

I think I was using the wrong terms. We are using a tool mounted on
the turret. It has two carbide rollers and the carbide cutter. We are
not using to cross slide for this. I've just been using the terms I had
heard for doing this.
I have almost no production experience and the owners of this place
have no experience at manufacturing. They were doing everything the way
the previous owners did. I We want to use something beside 12L14
because the cost of it 8xs 1018. This is just one of countless things
I'm involved in changing around here.
We are making screws for muzzleloaders trying to reproduce screws off
of original guns. So they have to be steel


12L14 isn't very strong even though it's steel. If the screws are holding
the gun together and are under load and or shock you should be using a
medium carbon steel and heat treating. More info he
http://www.americanfastener.com/tech...ings_steel.asp

Where were you having trouble with the surface finish? Was it in the
threads? I'm assuming that you are using a Landis or Geometric type die
head for threading. If the trouble is in the surface finish of the
threads then you could take a look at thread rolling on the machine.
Landis and Fette both make rolling heads that will work in a Brown &
Sharpe. Rolling heads cold form the thread rather than cut it. So you end
up with a stronger thread and a better surface finish because the thread
rolls will burnish the material as they are forming it.
http://www.landisthreadingsystems.co...ng/default.htm
http://www.lmtfette.com/threadfiles/thread.htm

If the problem is the finish on the un-threaded portion turned by the
box tool, you may be able to change the geometry of the tool and/or use a
bigger radius on the tool. If the box tool is an old style one that uses
bits instead of carbide inserts, the grind geometry is very important. If
you are using an insert type you can try a different grade, a larger nose
radius, and a different style chip breaker. With a box tool you probably
need not worry about spindle speed as the Brownie probably doesn't have
enough RPM to burn up the tool. What model machine is it, and what is
your RPM and feed rate?

--

Dan

  #15   Report Post  
 
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12L14 isn't very strong even though it's steel. If the screws are
holding
the gun together and are under load and or shock you should be using

a
medium carbon steel and heat treating.


I've used 1144 for such purposes. Where 12L14 is a little weak,
the 1144 machines almost as nicely and has less cold-shortness. 110ksi
is about right for strength, IIRC. No heat treatment required.

Dan



  #17   Report Post  
Brian Lawson
 
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Hey all,

A bright young guy in my old trade died late last month in a fall down
a hoistway. Anyway, with his tragic ending still on my mind, I just
this morning found out that April 28th of every year is

"Day of Mourning for Persons Killed or Injured in the Workplace"

by Act of Parliament in Canada, since 1991.

It is just a proclaimed "day", and not a holiday.

So, seems a fitting day to remind everybody here to be careful, if not
for yourself, then for, as I see now, preventing the unbelievable
pain such incidents bring to those left behind.

Take care. Really take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
  #18   Report Post  
 
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Default


Where were you having trouble with the surface finish? Was it in the
threads?
The trouble was with the urned Dia. Today I had some time to play
with the machine. I changed the
angel a bit, put a slight radius on it, tightened up the gibs,
readjusted the rollers
and prayed for a miricle(as usual) Its quit a bit better although not
nearly as good as I'm used to
with the 12L14. Its also making chips quit a bit different than 12l14.
The 1018 are nearly flat and about 3/16 long and
packing into the toolholder making me have to stop and back the tool
out to get it to cut.
Also the threads were tearing. I tried usinf Tapmagic and that was
fine and then some thread cutting oil
I just got saterday. THe threads were fine with either of these but
with the soluble oil
which we normally use they were as I said torn.
I'm gong to look into getting a thread roller as you suggested.
We are using an older style without inserts.
We had the owner of th shop donw the road and his machinist wander in
and I asked them since they
have a similar machine and do the same parts. Their only suggestion was
radiusing the tool.
And thanks for all the advice. I'm having to learn all this on my own
so thanks
Ken

  #19   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
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Default

On 28 Apr 2005 10:27:51 -0700, wrote:


Where were you having trouble with the surface finish? Was it in the
threads?
The trouble was with the urned Dia. Today I had some time to play
with the machine. I changed the
angel a bit, put a slight radius on it, tightened up the gibs,
readjusted the rollers
and prayed for a miricle(as usual) Its quit a bit better although not
nearly as good as I'm used to
with the 12L14. Its also making chips quit a bit different than 12l14.
The 1018 are nearly flat and about 3/16 long and
packing into the toolholder making me have to stop and back the tool
out to get it to cut.
Also the threads were tearing. I tried usinf Tapmagic and that was
fine and then some thread cutting oil
I just got saterday. THe threads were fine with either of these but
with the soluble oil
which we normally use they were as I said torn.
I'm gong to look into getting a thread roller as you suggested.
We are using an older style without inserts.
We had the owner of th shop donw the road and his machinist wander in
and I asked them since they
have a similar machine and do the same parts. Their only suggestion was
radiusing the tool.
And thanks for all the advice. I'm having to learn all this on my own
so thanks
Ken

Ken, I don't know about your setup but for me the extra cost for 12L14
is more than offset by the savings in labor and the quality of the
finish. I see that the chips are packing up. How much time is being
lost clearing chips? If you can, rolling the threads will give you a
much better finish and stronger threads with the added advantage of no
chips to deal with during the threading operation. The drawbacks are
the tighter tolerance to which the threaded portion must be turned to
before threading and the high cost of the thread rolls and the thread
rolling head. If I need to thread parts which are too long compared to
the diameter to get good threads, and of a sufficient quantity, I send
them to J. D. Ott company in Seattle. They require a certain diameter
on the parts and then centerless grind them before threading to
guarantee good threads. Is there any way to grind your tool to
re-direct the chips such that they don't pack up?
Eric
  #20   Report Post  
Errol Groff
 
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Default


Today one of my freshmen students was operating his lathe. Another
idiot was bouncing a piede of 1/8 stock on the top of the chuck, it
caught and flipped into the face of the student who was doing what he
was supposed to be doing giving him a nasty cut on his face. Damn.
Can't be every where watching everything but I think that the
offending student got a good scare about shop safety and MAYBE the
message sank in.

Another story. The husband of a friend of ours had a shipping
container drop on him in the port of Baltimore. Squished him flat as
a pancake. They put over 100 pints of blood through him in an heroic
effort to save him but to no avail.

Live every day to the fullest. Life can be so precarious.

Errol Groff


On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:12:12 -0400, Brian Lawson
wrote:

Hey all,

A bright young guy in my old trade died late last month in a fall down
a hoistway. Anyway, with his tragic ending still on my mind, I just
this morning found out that April 28th of every year is

"Day of Mourning for Persons Killed or Injured in the Workplace"

by Act of Parliament in Canada, since 1991.

It is just a proclaimed "day", and not a holiday.

So, seems a fitting day to remind everybody here to be careful, if not
for yourself, then for, as I see now, preventing the unbelievable
pain such incidents bring to those left behind.

Take care. Really take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.




  #21   Report Post  
D Murphy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote in news:1114709271.763705.296440
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Where were you having trouble with the surface finish? Was it in the
threads?
The trouble was with the urned Dia. Today I had some time to play
with the machine. I changed the
angel a bit, put a slight radius on it, tightened up the gibs,
readjusted the rollers
and prayed for a miricle(as usual) Its quit a bit better although not
nearly as good as I'm used to
with the 12L14. Its also making chips quit a bit different than 12l14.
The 1018 are nearly flat and about 3/16 long and
packing into the toolholder making me have to stop and back the tool
out to get it to cut.
Also the threads were tearing. I tried usinf Tapmagic and that was
fine and then some thread cutting oil
I just got saterday. THe threads were fine with either of these but
with the soluble oil
which we normally use they were as I said torn.
I'm gong to look into getting a thread roller as you suggested.
We are using an older style without inserts.
We had the owner of th shop donw the road and his machinist wander in
and I asked them since they
have a similar machine and do the same parts. Their only suggestion was
radiusing the tool.
And thanks for all the advice. I'm having to learn all this on my own
so thanks


I would get rid of the soluble oil. The old Brownies weren't really
designed to run with water. A good cutting oil formulated for screw
machines with sulpher and chlorinated parrifin additives will help with
finish and even with chip control to some extent. I'm starting to get the
impression that this is a hand screw machine rather than a cam operated
automatic. Is that right? Maybe a 00? Anyway your more than welcome for
the advise. Feel free to keep us updated and post any other questions you
might have.

--

Dan

  #23   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:12:12 -0400, Brian Lawson
wrote:

Hey all,

A bright young guy in my old trade died late last month in a fall down
a hoistway. Anyway, with his tragic ending still on my mind, I just
this morning found out that April 28th of every year is


Does that mean he fell down an elevator shaft?

One of my personal wake up at 4am nightmares.

The others are worse.

Gunner


"Day of Mourning for Persons Killed or Injured in the Workplace"

by Act of Parliament in Canada, since 1991.

It is just a proclaimed "day", and not a holiday.

So, seems a fitting day to remind everybody here to be careful, if not
for yourself, then for, as I see now, preventing the unbelievable
pain such incidents bring to those left behind.

Take care. Really take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.


Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli
  #24   Report Post  
 
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Default


Too much time clearing chips. Thats why I stopped with the 1018. RIght
now we are trying to get ready for the big Muzzleloader show in
Friendship in a few weeks and I don't have time to experiment.
I was going to try and make some sort of chip breaker and I really
like the thread rolling idea except its way over our budget. I'll
start looking on ebay.
We were planning on making some new products that the boss wants a
really good thread on so maybe we can find the money for one
Ken

  #25   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

We have a# 1.
I'll look into the oil situation. It did as I mentioned cut the
threds very nicely when I used thred cutting oil



  #26   Report Post  
Tom Miller
 
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Default

At the risk of being accused of cynicism, I suspect that, here in
Australia, it is just another stick that the unions will use to beat
employers. Eventually they will give up on manufacturing ANYTHING here, and
move the last vestiges of business to China.
You can imagine the attitude that the Chinese take toward any sort of safety
improvement that costs anything.



"Brian Lawson" wrote in message
...
Hey all,

A bright young guy in my old trade died late last month in a fall down
a hoistway. Anyway, with his tragic ending still on my mind, I just
this morning found out that April 28th of every year is

"Day of Mourning for Persons Killed or Injured in the Workplace"

by Act of Parliament in Canada, since 1991.

It is just a proclaimed "day", and not a holiday.

So, seems a fitting day to remind everybody here to be careful, if not
for yourself, then for, as I see now, preventing the unbelievable
pain such incidents bring to those left behind.

Take care. Really take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.



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