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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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1018 vs 12L14 when shaving on screw machines??
I was setting up our ancient Brown and Sharp to do some long screws.
The O.D. is .375 with 2in of 2.125 length shaved down to .162 to put an 8-32 thread on first in. They had always used 12L14 to do this and I had mentioned trying 1018 but wondered how it would do when shaving off all that material in one pass. My background is not production so I didnt know how hard it would be. I tried using the 1018 today and the finish was terrible. SO I switched to the 12l14 to see the difference with the same cutter and same setup. It was much better with the 12L14. We were in a real panic to get some screws finished and shipped so I had our operator rn the 12L14. I'm wondering if 1018 is suitable to use when your using shave tools and would I need a different angle on the cutter or what? I'm wasng to try the 1018 again Wens or Thurset time. |
#2
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1018 isn't as crack-prone as 12L14, welds more readily and costs
less, but beyond that it sure hasn't too many advantages. 12L14 is used as the benchmark for machinability (at 100%) with 1018 being at around 70 or 80%. If there's any way I could make 12L14 work, I'd use it. 1018 is gummier and doesn't cut nearly as nicely. You'd need to prove to the boss that 1018 would be a better material for this customer's screws. What are they using them in? Dan |
#3
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You will be able to produce more parts with a better finish with the 12l14.
That alloy has been designed for screw machine use. If your customer did not specify 1018 why would you want to use it. Your boss will be happy producing the largest amount of parts in the shortest time. BTW, it's called turning , not shaving. A woodworker shaves with a plane. Tony wrote in message ups.com... I was setting up our ancient Brown and Sharp to do some long screws. The O.D. is .375 with 2in of 2.125 length shaved down to .162 to put an 8-32 thread on first in. They had always used 12L14 to do this and I had mentioned trying 1018 but wondered how it would do when shaving off all that material in one pass. My background is not production so I didnt know how hard it would be. I tried using the 1018 today and the finish was terrible. SO I switched to the 12l14 to see the difference with the same cutter and same setup. It was much better with the 12L14. We were in a real panic to get some screws finished and shipped so I had our operator rn the 12L14. I'm wondering if 1018 is suitable to use when your using shave tools and would I need a different angle on the cutter or what? I'm wasng to try the 1018 again Wens or Thurset time. |
#4
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wrote in message ups.com... I was setting up our ancient Brown and Sharp to do some long screws. The O.D. is .375 with 2in of 2.125 length shaved down to .162 to put an 8-32 thread on first in. They had always used 12L14 to do this and I had mentioned trying 1018 but wondered how it would do when shaving off all that material in one pass. My background is not production so I didnt know how hard it would be. I tried using the 1018 today and the finish was terrible. SO I switched to the 12l14 to see the difference with the same cutter and same setup. It was much better with the 12L14. We were in a real panic to get some screws finished and shipped so I had our operator rn the 12L14. I'm wondering if 1018 is suitable to use when your using shave tools and would I need a different angle on the cutter or what? I'm wasng to try the 1018 again Wens or Thurset time. 1018 is a bitch to machine, full stop. I avoid it as much as possible. Screw machines are highly unlikely to enjoy running it. If you expect to take light cuts and get a decent finish, you'll struggle for ever, but you have options beyond 12L14, assuming your customer would approve the material. You can buy 1213 or 1215 cold finished bars that are formulated for screw machining, or 1117 and 11L17, each of which are very nice to machine. You're not limited to 12L14. Harold |
#6
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"Tony" wrote in news:J6Bbe.17692$V02.1738
@fe08.lga: BTW, it's called turning , not shaving. A woodworker shaves with a plane. Turning and shaving are two different things. Shaving is a very common way to hold size accurately on a Brown & Sharpe when removing metal fron the cross slide. When using a form tool the cross slide repeatability is not very good. Not a big plus when making screw threads. By shaving you take the cross slide repeatability out of the picture. The shaving tool has the form ground on top. The tool is set off of spindle centerline (that's right on a lathe your tool doesn't have to be on center) and is fed in from the outside of the bar toward and past centerline. The height of the tool above center determines the resulting diameter. Take a look here at a holder: http://www.championscrew.com/schiltter.htm Here is an article that does a better job than I can: http://www.production-machining.com/...s/0503tb1.html Here is a pic of an old Brownie: http://www.asset-auctions.com/40518/IMG_0173.JPG -- Dan |
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#8
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Anthony wrote in
: To switch from 12L14 to 1018, you will probably have to slow down on the feeds and speeds a bit. Good point. 280 SFM for 12L14, 150 SFM for 1018. You can run Brass at 400 SFM, faster cycle time = lower cost, maybe enough to offset the higher cost material. -- Dan |
#9
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mea culpa
Tony "D Murphy" wrote in message ... "Tony" wrote in news:J6Bbe.17692$V02.1738 @fe08.lga: BTW, it's called turning , not shaving. A woodworker shaves with a plane. Turning and shaving are two different things. Shaving is a very common way to hold size accurately on a Brown & Sharpe when removing metal fron the cross slide. When using a form tool the cross slide repeatability is not very good. Not a big plus when making screw threads. By shaving you take the cross slide repeatability out of the picture. The shaving tool has the form ground on top. The tool is set off of spindle centerline (that's right on a lathe your tool doesn't have to be on center) and is fed in from the outside of the bar toward and past centerline. The height of the tool above center determines the resulting diameter. Take a look here at a holder: http://www.championscrew.com/schiltter.htm Here is an article that does a better job than I can: http://www.production-machining.com/...s/0503tb1.html Here is a pic of an old Brownie: http://www.asset-auctions.com/40518/IMG_0173.JPG -- Dan |
#10
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"Tony" wrote in news:V5Ebe.17759$V02.17421
@fe08.lga: mea culpa Oh hey, no problem. How would you know if you never had the misfortune of working on a Brownie? I just figured it would make for some interesting on topic discussion. -- Dan |
#11
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In article , D Murphy says...
The shaving tool has the form ground on top. How is a shaving tool different than a roller box tool? Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#12
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I think I was using the wrong terms. We are using a tool mounted on
the turret. It has two carbide rollers and the carbide cutter. We are not using to cross slide for this. I've just been using the terms I had heard for doing this. I have almost no production experience and the owners of this place have no experience at manufacturing. They were doing everything the way the previous owners did. I We want to use something beside 12L14 because the cost of it 8xs 1018. This is just one of countless things I'm involved in changing around here. We are making screws for muzzleloaders trying to reproduce screws off of original guns. So they have to be steel |
#13
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jim rozen wrote in news:d4nurp026q2
@drn.newsguy.com: In article , D Murphy says... The shaving tool has the form ground on top. How is a shaving tool different than a roller box tool? A box tool is similar to a hollow mill in the way that it cuts. It would be mounted in the turret and would approach the work from the end face. The shave tool would be mounted on the cross slide (which is not a compound slide) and would plunge into the work from the side (perpendicular to the spindle). The box tool uses either a ground tool bit(s) or an insert. It turns the work in a similar way that a regular turning tool does. So it can only do a straight turn, the shave tool can put in steps, chamfers, radii, angles, and grooves. Whatever form you can grind on the tool it will put into the work. The box tool supports the work either with pads or rollers, so it's a good choice for long thin sections. Somma tool makes a variety of box tools, including one that retracts when you are pulling it off of the work. http://www.sommatool.com/catalog/qui...e/accuset1.asp Boyar-Schultz makes them as well. This pic of theirs is probably a little better. http://www.detroitautomatic.com/tooling.htm The OP is probably using a shave tool for speed. Since it will put in the entire profile of the part in one pass. But with a long thin part like he is doing chatter, deflection, and galling can be a problem, especially with a tougher material. -- Dan |
#14
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wrote in news:1114623076.356736.313220
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com: I think I was using the wrong terms. We are using a tool mounted on the turret. It has two carbide rollers and the carbide cutter. We are not using to cross slide for this. I've just been using the terms I had heard for doing this. I have almost no production experience and the owners of this place have no experience at manufacturing. They were doing everything the way the previous owners did. I We want to use something beside 12L14 because the cost of it 8xs 1018. This is just one of countless things I'm involved in changing around here. We are making screws for muzzleloaders trying to reproduce screws off of original guns. So they have to be steel 12L14 isn't very strong even though it's steel. If the screws are holding the gun together and are under load and or shock you should be using a medium carbon steel and heat treating. More info he http://www.americanfastener.com/tech...ings_steel.asp Where were you having trouble with the surface finish? Was it in the threads? I'm assuming that you are using a Landis or Geometric type die head for threading. If the trouble is in the surface finish of the threads then you could take a look at thread rolling on the machine. Landis and Fette both make rolling heads that will work in a Brown & Sharpe. Rolling heads cold form the thread rather than cut it. So you end up with a stronger thread and a better surface finish because the thread rolls will burnish the material as they are forming it. http://www.landisthreadingsystems.co...ng/default.htm http://www.lmtfette.com/threadfiles/thread.htm If the problem is the finish on the un-threaded portion turned by the box tool, you may be able to change the geometry of the tool and/or use a bigger radius on the tool. If the box tool is an old style one that uses bits instead of carbide inserts, the grind geometry is very important. If you are using an insert type you can try a different grade, a larger nose radius, and a different style chip breaker. With a box tool you probably need not worry about spindle speed as the Brownie probably doesn't have enough RPM to burn up the tool. What model machine is it, and what is your RPM and feed rate? -- Dan |
#15
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12L14 isn't very strong even though it's steel. If the screws are
holding the gun together and are under load and or shock you should be using a medium carbon steel and heat treating. I've used 1144 for such purposes. Where 12L14 is a little weak, the 1144 machines almost as nicely and has less cold-shortness. 110ksi is about right for strength, IIRC. No heat treatment required. Dan |
#16
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#17
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Hey all,
A bright young guy in my old trade died late last month in a fall down a hoistway. Anyway, with his tragic ending still on my mind, I just this morning found out that April 28th of every year is "Day of Mourning for Persons Killed or Injured in the Workplace" by Act of Parliament in Canada, since 1991. It is just a proclaimed "day", and not a holiday. So, seems a fitting day to remind everybody here to be careful, if not for yourself, then for, as I see now, preventing the unbelievable pain such incidents bring to those left behind. Take care. Really take care. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. |
#18
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Where were you having trouble with the surface finish? Was it in the threads? The trouble was with the urned Dia. Today I had some time to play with the machine. I changed the angel a bit, put a slight radius on it, tightened up the gibs, readjusted the rollers and prayed for a miricle(as usual) Its quit a bit better although not nearly as good as I'm used to with the 12L14. Its also making chips quit a bit different than 12l14. The 1018 are nearly flat and about 3/16 long and packing into the toolholder making me have to stop and back the tool out to get it to cut. Also the threads were tearing. I tried usinf Tapmagic and that was fine and then some thread cutting oil I just got saterday. THe threads were fine with either of these but with the soluble oil which we normally use they were as I said torn. I'm gong to look into getting a thread roller as you suggested. We are using an older style without inserts. We had the owner of th shop donw the road and his machinist wander in and I asked them since they have a similar machine and do the same parts. Their only suggestion was radiusing the tool. And thanks for all the advice. I'm having to learn all this on my own so thanks Ken |
#19
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#20
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Today one of my freshmen students was operating his lathe. Another idiot was bouncing a piede of 1/8 stock on the top of the chuck, it caught and flipped into the face of the student who was doing what he was supposed to be doing giving him a nasty cut on his face. Damn. Can't be every where watching everything but I think that the offending student got a good scare about shop safety and MAYBE the message sank in. Another story. The husband of a friend of ours had a shipping container drop on him in the port of Baltimore. Squished him flat as a pancake. They put over 100 pints of blood through him in an heroic effort to save him but to no avail. Live every day to the fullest. Life can be so precarious. Errol Groff On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:12:12 -0400, Brian Lawson wrote: Hey all, A bright young guy in my old trade died late last month in a fall down a hoistway. Anyway, with his tragic ending still on my mind, I just this morning found out that April 28th of every year is "Day of Mourning for Persons Killed or Injured in the Workplace" by Act of Parliament in Canada, since 1991. It is just a proclaimed "day", and not a holiday. So, seems a fitting day to remind everybody here to be careful, if not for yourself, then for, as I see now, preventing the unbelievable pain such incidents bring to those left behind. Take care. Really take care. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. |
#21
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#23
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On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:12:12 -0400, Brian Lawson
wrote: Hey all, A bright young guy in my old trade died late last month in a fall down a hoistway. Anyway, with his tragic ending still on my mind, I just this morning found out that April 28th of every year is Does that mean he fell down an elevator shaft? One of my personal wake up at 4am nightmares. The others are worse. Gunner "Day of Mourning for Persons Killed or Injured in the Workplace" by Act of Parliament in Canada, since 1991. It is just a proclaimed "day", and not a holiday. So, seems a fitting day to remind everybody here to be careful, if not for yourself, then for, as I see now, preventing the unbelievable pain such incidents bring to those left behind. Take care. Really take care. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli |
#24
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Too much time clearing chips. Thats why I stopped with the 1018. RIght now we are trying to get ready for the big Muzzleloader show in Friendship in a few weeks and I don't have time to experiment. I was going to try and make some sort of chip breaker and I really like the thread rolling idea except its way over our budget. I'll start looking on ebay. We were planning on making some new products that the boss wants a really good thread on so maybe we can find the money for one Ken |
#25
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We have a# 1.
I'll look into the oil situation. It did as I mentioned cut the threds very nicely when I used thred cutting oil |
#26
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At the risk of being accused of cynicism, I suspect that, here in
Australia, it is just another stick that the unions will use to beat employers. Eventually they will give up on manufacturing ANYTHING here, and move the last vestiges of business to China. You can imagine the attitude that the Chinese take toward any sort of safety improvement that costs anything. "Brian Lawson" wrote in message ... Hey all, A bright young guy in my old trade died late last month in a fall down a hoistway. Anyway, with his tragic ending still on my mind, I just this morning found out that April 28th of every year is "Day of Mourning for Persons Killed or Injured in the Workplace" by Act of Parliament in Canada, since 1991. It is just a proclaimed "day", and not a holiday. So, seems a fitting day to remind everybody here to be careful, if not for yourself, then for, as I see now, preventing the unbelievable pain such incidents bring to those left behind. Take care. Really take care. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. |
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