On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:43:46 +0000 (UTC), wrote:
I have to try that tonight. The potassium, I suppose?

K40? shrug

Lange's Handbook of Chemistry 1967:
Abundance % .0119
1.3x10^9 years beta-1.33;K;gamma1.46

Report back, please.

Will do.

"Todd Rich" wrote in message
...
DU is a very mild alpha emitter. Alpha particles are stopped by a sheet
of paper or your skin.

Nasty inside though. It's also a heavy metal like mercury and lead.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:04:24 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

Actually, it is! As I recall, removed granite waste is a low-level
radiation "hazard".

I don't believe that for a moment.

Granite has sod-all radioactivity. Get a lump, try counting it - not
easy, even with good tools. The risk from granite is because it's found
in large underground masses and the daughter product is a gas. This can
travel, so if you have a house with a suitable basement and no
ventilation then you can be concentrating the radon from a huge quantity
of rock. If you live in a stone-built house on pillars though, no
hazard at all.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:38:04 -0500, Rex B wrote:

So where does one buy a geiger counter, if one were so inclined?

You start out by thinking what on earth you want it for. Then you buy
the right sort. You also need to read up on radiation, its monitoring,
its hazards and its devices. This is _not_ a simple subject (although
reading military training pamphlets is often a good simple start - the
relevant FM is probably on-line)

If you buy a mil-surplus G-M then you have three problems; it's
insensitive, because it was designed for measuring fairly high rates.
Secondly it's _really_ insensitive, because it's 30 years old and the
tube has gone soft - GM tubes age badly, especially those sensitive to
beta. Thirdly it's likely to run on valves and require some weird 90V
battery that's no longer available.

So if you want to play science, buy a brand new (or still-boxed surplus)
tube and build yourself a transistor power supply and counter circuit
for it.

Here in the UK, the military didn't use that many G-M devices. The
standard battlefield meter was an ionisation chamber device, because
this is more appropriate for military levels. For training there was a
very similar meter, except it was a different case colour (black and
silver). This did use a G-M tube and was sensitive enough to sniff out
small training sources, pinned to a squaddie's battledress.

For civil defence use, the standard device was a G-M tube mounted above
one of the ROC's bunkers.
http://www.scottishroc.org.uk/theroc/monitoring.html
There were also hand-held variants (cream metal cases)

In later years these were all replaced by variants of the ubiquitous
Plessey PDRM82
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mccamley/pdrm82a.htm
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mccamley/pdrm82.htm
These are still around on eBay ($50 street price) and the surplus market
(Bull electrical) as good NOS. They're robust, they use common
batteries, they;re just the ticket for environmental monitoring and best
of all they're PDRM82's. It's a problem with low-level env radiation
monitoring that calibration is a Black art and the only way to get
decent results is for everyone to be using the same meter.

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q4099.html


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

"bw" wrote in message
...

"Al Dykes" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Wescott wrote:
John Sefton wrote:

"Ignoramus20427" wrote in
message
...

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 01:27:17 GMT, Bruce W.1

wrote:

I've read that depleted uranium is six times as dense as lead. It
would
be nifty to have a chunk of it, that is if it's not radioactive.

only 1.5 times heavier.



30 years ago the Toronto Science Museum had a brick-sized chunk of DU
on display under a plexiglass dome. The dome had a hole for your hand
and you could lift the brick. impressive heft.

A standard brick has a volume of about 1 liter, so your DU brick weighed
19
kilograms.

Interesting. DU must have about the same specific gravity as gold. (Slightly
higher, I'd guess)

"John Sefton" wrote in message news:d49i7m$on9
Interesting. DU must have about the same specific gravity as gold.
(Slightly
higher, I'd guess)


Gold = 19.32
Depleted Uranium = 18.7

"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in message
...

"John Sefton" wrote in message
news:d49i7m$on9
Interesting. DU must have about the same specific gravity as gold.
(Slightly
higher, I'd guess)


Gold = 19.32
Depleted Uranium = 18.7

Well... slightly lower, then! :^)

That "d" word obviously makes all the difference...

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:03:47 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:04:24 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

Actually, it is! As I recall, removed granite waste is a low-level
radiation "hazard".

I don't believe that for a moment.

Granite has sod-all radioactivity. Get a lump, try counting it - not
easy, even with good tools.

Hm. That's interesting, because I played with the Geiger counter last
night (technically a "Scintillation Meter"), and found the following:

Radiation survey of everyday objects:

Background radiation, 4 sites inside house: 1.5 Counts per Second (CPS)
Background radiation, 4 sites outside house: 1.5 CPS
4 over-ripe bananas, sensor in contact with skin: 3 CPS
Clean diapers: 1.5 CPS (no detectable radiation; same as background)
Dirty diapers, measured at top of diaper pail: 2 CPS
6 month old kid: 1.5 CPS plus drool and two giggles
"First Alert" smoke detector, with Americium goodness: 50 CPS on surface
10 year old Trijicon (Tritium) gunsights on Glock 19: 1.5 CPS
Granite boulder, roughly 1 meter in diameter. Pink: 4 CPS
Black: 3 CPS
Blue/black boulder of unknown ignious type: 1.5 CPS
Garden soil: 1.5 CPS

Obviously this is only a slightly scientific survey, but shows some
interesting non-background results.

The risk from granite is because it's found
in large underground masses and the daughter product is a gas. This can
travel, so if you have a house with a suitable basement and no
ventilation then you can be concentrating the radon from a huge quantity
of rock. If you live in a stone-built house on pillars though, no
hazard at all.

Right. Measurable doesn't mean dangerous. Well, except in the case of
the diaper pail above (trust me on this one). For the record, the kid just
started on bananas. I should check his other foods, just out of curiousity.

Dave Hinz

Dave, thanks for quatifying the radioactivity with your experimentation.
You have proved that granite and banananas are indeed radioactive. The
level is indeed low but it is there for those that are hypersensitive to the
idea of radioactivity.
For fun with hypersensitivty to radiation, carve yourself a key fob out of
granite and when you meet one of those idiots, show it to him and then tell
him that it is radioactive. Then watch him freak.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

Thanks for the report Dave! -Alvin

Hm. That's interesting, because I played with the Geiger counter
last night (technically a "Scintillation Meter"), and found the
following:

Radiation survey of everyday objects:

Background radiation, 4 sites inside house: 1.5 Counts per Second
Background radiation, 4 sites outside house: 1.5 CPS
4 over-ripe bananas, sensor in contact with skin: 3 CPS
Clean diapers: 1.5 CPS (no detectable radiation; same as background)
Dirty diapers, measured at top of diaper pail: 2 CPS
6 month old kid: 1.5 CPS plus drool and two giggles
"First Alert" smoke detector, with Americium goodness: 50 CPS
10 year old Trijicon (Tritium) gunsights on Glock 19: 1.5 CPS
Granite boulder, roughly 1 meter in diameter. Pink: 4 CPS
Black: 3 CPS
Blue/black boulder of unknown ignious type: 1.5 CPS
Garden soil: 1.5 CPS

Obviously this is only a slightly scientific survey, but shows some
interesting non-background results.

Measurable doesn't mean dangerous. Well, except in the case of
the diaper pail above (trust me on this one). For the record, the
kid just started on bananas. I should check his other foods, just
out of curiousity.

Dave Hinz

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:03:59 -0700, Bob May wrote:
Dave, thanks for quatifying the radioactivity with your experimentation.
You have proved that granite and banananas are indeed radioactive. The
level is indeed low but it is there for those that are hypersensitive to the
idea of radioactivity.

For those who over-react to non-issues, I hope you mean?

For fun with hypersensitivty to radiation, carve yourself a key fob out of
granite and when you meet one of those idiots, show it to him and then tell
him that it is radioactive. Then watch him freak.

Heh. I think the fact that baby poop is measurably radioactive is
fun enough.

william_b_noble wrote:

there was a mod to the L-1011 airplane that involved putting depleted
uranium weights as counterbalances on a couple of control arms - I wonder
what happens to those weights when the planes are decomissioned.

and, if you go to iraq, near the kuwait border, you will find a fair amount
of it from the desert storm campaign - of course it's a bit of a trip.



Some of the aircraft I have worked on over the years have had DU in
them as mass balance weights for flight controls.

It is relatively benign. We were under strict guidance to not drill,
grind, or otherwise alter the weights. There were procedures in place
that dealt with crash salvage and recovering the weights for disposal,
if it was required.

I am under the impression that the OP is suffering from a bad case of
ignorant, and perhaps should do his own homework to see if he really
wants to deal with the stuff. If he wants heavy, lead is probably his
best bet for safe and easy. Maybe solid tungsten, if he has the budget.

I expect that if the OP were in a position to actually require DU, he
would already know the risks vs. the benefits, as well as the sources.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

"Bob May" wrote in message
...
For fun with hypersensitivty to radiation, carve yourself a key fob
out of granite and when you meet one of those idiots, show it to him
and then tell him that it is radioactive. Then watch him freak.

Hmmmm, if these dupes carry around counters, you could have some good fun..
like drill out a few smoke alarms and encase the bits in a plastic fob like
you said. Radiation ought to be negligible enough (with the alphas
contained in the plastic and protected by skin and pocket lining), yet still
detectable.

Or if you've broken a bright orange ceramic dish, it might be a uranium
colored glaze - those set off a counter too.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:03:38 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"Bob May" wrote in message
...
For fun with hypersensitivty to radiation, carve yourself a key fob
out of granite and when you meet one of those idiots, show it to him
and then tell him that it is radioactive. Then watch him freak.

Hmmmm, if these dupes carry around counters, you could have some good fun..
like drill out a few smoke alarms and encase the bits in a plastic fob like
you said. Radiation ought to be negligible enough (with the alphas
contained in the plastic and protected by skin and pocket lining), yet still
detectable.

Or if you've broken a bright orange ceramic dish, it might be a uranium
colored glaze - those set off a counter too.

Tim

Hmmm... orange. I've always suspected that's what the nacho cheese
sauce was at little league parks, nuclear waste.

Pete Keillor

In rec.crafts.metalworking Tim Williams wrote:
"Bob May" wrote in message
...
For fun with hypersensitivty to radiation, carve yourself a key fob
out of granite and when you meet one of those idiots, show it to him
and then tell him that it is radioactive. Then watch him freak.

Hmmmm, if these dupes carry around counters, you could have some good fun..
like drill out a few smoke alarms and encase the bits in a plastic fob like
you said. Radiation ought to be negligible enough (with the alphas
contained in the plastic and protected by skin and pocket lining), yet still
detectable.

Or if you've broken a bright orange ceramic dish, it might be a uranium
colored glaze - those set off a counter too.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Naw...go for the cheap and easy route. Coleman lantern mantles.

For those who over-react to non-issues, I hope you mean?

That's probably a better way to put it.
--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

In sci.engr.metallurgy Todd Rich wrote:
Naw...go for the cheap and easy route. Coleman lantern mantles.
[Todd Rich]

I guess that's Be10?
Half life = 2.7x10^6 years, beta-0.56; no gamma
Abundance is listed as zero in my book tho. :/

The problem with those was ordinary Be in the lungs.
Do they have another metal I'm missing?

Alvin in AZ (panix here too

In article ,
says...
In sci.engr.metallurgy Todd Rich wrote:
Naw...go for the cheap and easy route. Coleman lantern mantles.
[Todd Rich]

I guess that's Be10?
Half life = 2.7x10^6 years, beta-0.56; no gamma
Abundance is listed as zero in my book tho. :/

The problem with those was ordinary Be in the lungs.
Do they have another metal I'm missing?


Cerium

Ned Simmons

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
I guess that's Be10?
Half life = 2.7x10^6 years, beta-0.56; no gamma
Abundance is listed as zero in my book tho. :/

The problem with those was ordinary Be in the lungs.
Do they have another metal I'm missing?


Cerium

Nah, actually thorium has the highest melting point of any oxide. I forget
what it is offhand, something like 3000 or 3200°C?

Ceria may've replaced it nowadays...that wouldn't be suprising. I'd think
something like zirconia or magnesia would be cheaper while still retaining
the high melting point, though. Must be the emission spectrum of the rare
earths that they need.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Check this out:
Tale of the Radioactive Boy Scout

http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 23:45:18 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
I guess that's Be10?
Half life = 2.7x10^6 years, beta-0.56; no gamma
Abundance is listed as zero in my book tho. :/

The problem with those was ordinary Be in the lungs.
Do they have another metal I'm missing?


Cerium

Nah, actually thorium has the highest melting point of any oxide. I forget
what it is offhand, something like 3000 or 3200°C?

Ceria may've replaced it nowadays...that wouldn't be suprising. I'd think
something like zirconia or magnesia would be cheaper while still retaining
the high melting point, though. Must be the emission spectrum of the rare
earths that they need.

Tim

In article ,
says...
"Ned Simmons" wrote in message
...
I guess that's Be10?
Half life = 2.7x10^6 years, beta-0.56; no gamma
Abundance is listed as zero in my book tho. :/

The problem with those was ordinary Be in the lungs.
Do they have another metal I'm missing?


Cerium

Nah, actually thorium has the highest melting point of any oxide. I forget
what it is offhand, something like 3000 or 3200°C?

Ceria may've replaced it nowadays...that wouldn't be suprising. I'd think
something like zirconia or magnesia would be cheaper while still retaining
the high melting point, though. Must be the emission spectrum of the rare
earths that they need.


Apparently a mixture of thorium and cerium oxides.

Ned Simmons

In rec.crafts.metalworking wrote:
In sci.engr.metallurgy Todd Rich wrote:
Naw...go for the cheap and easy route. Coleman lantern mantles.
[Todd Rich]

I guess that's Be10?
Half life = 2.7x10^6 years, beta-0.56; no gamma
Abundance is listed as zero in my book tho. :/

The problem with those was ordinary Be in the lungs.
Do they have another metal I'm missing?

Alvin in AZ (panix here too

Admittedly, this is from my memories of the radiation lab durring high
school chemistry class, but I believe we were told it was from an isotope
of cesium.
Todd
(Yeah, I noticed over in a.c.b that you were on panix a day or two ago)

In rec.crafts.metalworking Ned Simmons wrote:
(snip)
Apparently a mixture of thorium and cerium oxides.

Ned Simmons

Shows how much my memory has degraded since high school. At least it was
one that sounded similar.
Todd

Cerium

None of the naturally occurring Ce's are shown to have radiation.
Ce136 0.19%
Ce138 0.26%
Ce140 88.47%
Ce142 11.08%

Th232 100% shows a half-life of 1.39x10^10 years, alpha and gamma

Nah, actually thorium has the highest melting point of any oxide.
I forget what it is offhand, something like 3000 or 3200?C?

ThO2 3050-C
CeO2 2600-C
ZrO2 2700-C
MgO 2800-C
BeO 2585-C --this one I heard about back in the 70's

The caution was not to "first light" them any where but outside.

Ceria may've replaced it nowadays...that wouldn't be suprising.
I'd think something like zirconia or magnesia would be cheaper
while still retaining the high melting point, though. Must be
the emission spectrum of the rare earths that they need.
Tim

Alvin in AZ (libertarian and librarian

Depleted uranium is radioactive and anyone uncovering a shell made from it
gets radioactive poisoning, bad stuff...

"Tim Shoppa" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've read that depleted uranium is six times as
dense as lead.

Not true, although it is denser.

If not then does anyone know where I can get a small piece?

Get in a war with the US or NATO and the military will deliver it, no
charge even!

Tim.

"Digby Millikan" wrote in message
...
Depleted uranium is radioactive and anyone uncovering a shell made from it
gets radioactive poisoning, bad stuff...

False nonsense.

Vaughn

In rec.crafts.metalworking Digby Millikan wrote:
Depleted uranium is radioactive and anyone uncovering a shell made from it
gets radioactive poisoning, bad stuff...

Depleted uranium is a mild alpha emitter. Your skin will stop the alpha
particles. Breathing in particles of DU is a different matter, but just
picking one up is not likely to cause a problem.

Depleted uranium is used as counterweights in the control system of many
aircraft. It is usually re-cycled when aircraft are junked. I also saw a
pair of DU penatraters from some tank rounds at an Army Surplus store, but
they wanted a young fortune for them. Far more than the metal content was
worth.

What in the world do you want to do with it any way? Its difficult to
machine, very hard, also its pyrophoric. Meaning the hot metal shavings have
a tendence to burn when exposed to the O2 in the air. Breathing the fumes
from this can be deadly, as others have mentioned DU gives off alpha
radiation, which is relatively safe, until it gets inside your lungs.