New gas furnace time
 

1,900 sq ft split level CBS ranch, circa 1964, with a flaky natural gas
furnace, in the temperate Portland (OR) Metro Area.

Time to replace it. Currently, have a Lennox Conservator III G16,
Model: G1603/4-100-3, Input: 100,000 BTU/Hr, Air rise: 35-65 F, and
ducting to match. Only have 5,000 sq ft of lot, and drilling is not
practical, so practicality of a ground source heat pump doesn't seem to
be there.

If you have recently replaced your furnace, would appreciate hearing
how you did it and what you learned.

Thank you kindly in advance for your on-topic remarks. Sales droids
will be spaced, out the airlock, ga-WOOSH!

Think natural gas ...not electric/heat pump.

wrote in message
oups.com...
1,900 sq ft split level CBS ranch, circa 1964, with a flaky natural gas
furnace, in the temperate Portland (OR) Metro Area.

Time to replace it. Currently, have a Lennox Conservator III G16,
Model: G1603/4-100-3, Input: 100,000 BTU/Hr, Air rise: 35-65 F, and
ducting to match. Only have 5,000 sq ft of lot, and drilling is not
practical, so practicality of a ground source heat pump doesn't seem to
be there.

If you have recently replaced your furnace, would appreciate hearing
how you did it and what you learned.

Thank you kindly in advance for your on-topic remarks. Sales droids
will be spaced, out the airlock, ga-WOOSH!


This is Turtle

Hey try you a new one but maybe in a Condensing 93% AFUE rating gas furnace this
time. The 93% AFUE now days will burn about 30+% less gas than your old one.

TURTLE

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
Think natural gas ...not electric/heat pump.


This is Turtle.

Hey Dave, you need to read better and see he said the ground source heat pump
was out of the picture because of area of yard.

TURTLE

wrote in message
oups.com...
1,900 sq ft split level CBS ranch, circa 1964, with a flaky natural gas
furnace, in the temperate Portland (OR) Metro Area.




Easiest would be to stuff in a 90+ furnace, but I wonder if a DX heat pump
would not be a better choice, depending on your electric rates compared to
the price of gas.
Greg

wrote in message
oups.com...
1,900 sq ft split level CBS ranch, circa 1964, with a flaky natural gas
furnace, in the temperate Portland (OR) Metro Area.

Time to replace it. Currently, have a Lennox Conservator III G16,
Model: G1603/4-100-3, Input: 100,000 BTU/Hr, Air rise: 35-65 F, and
ducting to match. Only have 5,000 sq ft of lot, and drilling is not
practical, so practicality of a ground source heat pump doesn't seem to
be there.

If you have recently replaced your furnace, would appreciate hearing
how you did it and what you learned.

Thank you kindly in advance for your on-topic remarks. Sales droids
will be spaced, out the airlock, ga-WOOSH!


Payback on a 90+ will be much longer in your area. Upgrade your insulation,
windows and air seal FIRST. You will then need a much smaller furnace or
none at all!

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:14:46 -0600, "TURTLE"
wrote:

This is Turtle

Hey try you a new one but maybe in a Condensing 93% AFUE
rating gas furnace this time. The 93% AFUE now days will burn
about 30+% less gas than your old one.

Yes, but the available cost data right now from the first dealer's bid
shows recovery of the higher furnace cost won't be possible within
fifteen years, by which time we will likely be out of this house.

The optimum solution seems to be a 90% furmace, as over ten years it
looks less expensive than the 80% also proposed. Here is the data,
transposed from an Excel spreadsheet:

Dealer estimate
Gross price
state rebate
net up front cost
finance cost
total furnace cost
est yearly fuel cost
5 year cost
10 year cost
15 year cost
(All figures in current dollars)

Dealer estimate for REPAIR
Gross price = $1,560
state rebate = $0
net up front cost = $1,560
finance cost = $0
total furnace cost = $1,560
est yearly fuel cost = $840
5 year cost = $7,320 (assumes re-repair every 5 yr., same cost)
10 year cost = $13,080
15 year cost = $18,840

Dealer estimate for REPLACE W/ 80% EFFICIENT FURNACE
Gross price = $ 2,600
state rebate = $0
net up front cost = $2,600
finance cost = $7 on balance we can't pay for immediately
total furnace cost = $2,607
est yearly fuel cost = $735
5 year cost = $6,282
10 year cost = $9,950
15 year cost = $13,625

Dealer estimate for REPLACE W/ 90% EFFICIENT FURNACE
Gross price = $3,400
state rebate = $200
net up front cost = $3,200
finance cost = $49
total furnace cost = $3,249
est yearly fuel cost = $653
5 year cost = $6,516
10 year cost = $9,733
15 year cost = $13,000

Dealer estimate for REPLACE W/ 94% EFFICIENT FURNACE
Gross price = $4,700
state rebate = $550
net up front cost = $4,150
finance cost = $116
total furnace cost = $4,266
est yearly fuel cost = $626
5 year cost = $7,393
10 year cost = $10,405
15 year cost = $13,533

But, Mr Turtle, perhaps you have had yours replaced
recently, and had a different experience? I would prefer
to discuss this only with folks who have actually been
through this themselves.

Thank you kindly for your on-topic remarks.


--
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation
without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
K7AAY John Bartley PDX, OR, USA http://kiloseven.blogspot.com
Opionions mine, all mine.

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:36:44 -0600, "Greg O" wrote:

Easiest would be to stuff in a 90+ furnace, but I wonder if a DX heat pump
would not be a better choice, depending on your electric rates compared to
the price of gas.
Greg

The DX heat pump requires, as per the designer who did such an install for
the local food co-op, 800-900 linear feet of tubing, and we just don't have
the open yard for that with our present house, even in a slinky layout.
Drilling for vertical tubing installs would drive the cost waaay out of
bounds.

Natural gas is $1.15 per marginal 'therm'.

Electricity is going up real soon IIRC from 8.5 cents / Kw-Hr to at least
10.2 cents /Kw-Hr, and likely will increase again when the FY06 federal
budget mandates BPA raise its rates to 'market'.

I have also posted one dealer's bids on repair plus installs of three
different levels of efficiency, in a response to Mr Turtle's post. You may
find that data beneficial.

Thank you kindly.


--
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation
without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
K7AAY John Bartley PDX, OR, USA http://kiloseven.blogspot.com
Opionions mine, all mine.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:14:46 -0600, "TURTLE"
wrote:

This is Turtle

Hey try you a new one but maybe in a Condensing 93% AFUE
rating gas furnace this time. The 93% AFUE now days will burn
about 30+% less gas than your old one.

Yes, but the available cost data right now from the first dealer's bid
shows recovery of the higher furnace cost won't be possible within
fifteen years, by which time we will likely be out of this house.

The optimum solution seems to be a 90% furmace, as over ten years it
looks less expensive than the 80% also proposed. Here is the data,
transposed from an Excel spreadsheet:

Dealer estimate
Gross price
state rebate
net up front cost
finance cost
total furnace cost
est yearly fuel cost
5 year cost
10 year cost
15 year cost
(All figures in current dollars)

Dealer estimate for REPAIR
Gross price = $1,560
state rebate = $0
net up front cost = $1,560
finance cost = $0
total furnace cost = $1,560
est yearly fuel cost = $840
5 year cost = $7,320 (assumes re-repair every 5 yr., same cost)
10 year cost = $13,080
15 year cost = $18,840

Dealer estimate for REPLACE W/ 80% EFFICIENT FURNACE
Gross price = $ 2,600
state rebate = $0
net up front cost = $2,600
finance cost = $7 on balance we can't pay for immediately
total furnace cost = $2,607
est yearly fuel cost = $735
5 year cost = $6,282
10 year cost = $9,950
15 year cost = $13,625

Dealer estimate for REPLACE W/ 90% EFFICIENT FURNACE
Gross price = $3,400
state rebate = $200
net up front cost = $3,200
finance cost = $49
total furnace cost = $3,249
est yearly fuel cost = $653
5 year cost = $6,516
10 year cost = $9,733
15 year cost = $13,000

Dealer estimate for REPLACE W/ 94% EFFICIENT FURNACE
Gross price = $4,700
state rebate = $550
net up front cost = $4,150
finance cost = $116
total furnace cost = $4,266
est yearly fuel cost = $626
5 year cost = $7,393
10 year cost = $10,405
15 year cost = $13,533

But, Mr Turtle, perhaps you have had yours replaced
recently, and had a different experience? I would prefer
to discuss this only with folks who have actually been
through this themselves.

Thank you kindly for your on-topic remarks.

This is Turtle.

Your talking to a HVAC or Furnace installer and service company owner. i install
and service the furnaces your speaking about. I have been doing this type work
for the last 40+ years.

I really don't know too much about going through it but I install them for a
living.

The Data You give here just seems out of line in the cost savings verses the 80%
AFUE to the 94% AFUE. Now I have learned to not argue with a computor set
program if it was true in it data output. I will go back tomorrow morning and
read it again to see a second look at it.

TURTLE

I don't know about "none at all" but a Air to Air Heat Pump with a C.O.P. of
3.2 would cost a little less than natural gas to operate, [in most areas
except the extreme Norhtern part of the US] but, may not be as 'comfortable'
as a "natural gas / propane" fired heater. Are you sure your local utility
is not offering any rebates on the +90% furances?

Zyp

"Martik" wrote in message
news:2UVQd.1190$iz2.1034@edtnps91...

wrote in message
oups.com...
1,900 sq ft split level CBS ranch, circa 1964, with a flaky natural gas
furnace, in the temperate Portland (OR) Metro Area.

Time to replace it. Currently, have a Lennox Conservator III G16,
Model: G1603/4-100-3, Input: 100,000 BTU/Hr, Air rise: 35-65 F, and
ducting to match. Only have 5,000 sq ft of lot, and drilling is not
practical, so practicality of a ground source heat pump doesn't seem to
be there.

If you have recently replaced your furnace, would appreciate hearing
how you did it and what you learned.

Thank you kindly in advance for your on-topic remarks. Sales droids
will be spaced, out the airlock, ga-WOOSH!


Payback on a 90+ will be much longer in your area. Upgrade your
insulation, windows and air seal FIRST. You will then need a much smaller
furnace or none at all!

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:36:44 -0600, "Greg O" wrote:

Easiest would be to stuff in a 90+ furnace, but I wonder if a DX heat pump
would not be a better choice, depending on your electric rates compared to
the price of gas.
Greg

The DX heat pump requires, as per the designer who did such an install for
the local food co-op, 800-900 linear feet of tubing, and we just don't
have
the open yard for that with our present house, even in a slinky layout.
Drilling for vertical tubing installs would drive the cost waaay out of
bounds.



I said DX, air to air, not geothermal.
Greg

Dave you can't think so why even try?

Sorry: When I googled 'DX Heat Pump", the first link I got was to a
geothermal install with 14 30-degree diagonal, 50' looks of copper
pipe. I'll look again at DX heat pumps, but I must admit it would be
easier of folks could cite URLs.

Sorry. First link to a DX heat pump was to a diagonal ground-source
using copper tubing at 30 degree off-axis from vertical in 50'
excavations. Will look further.

However, our ducting is sized for the higher heat form a gas furnace.
The first tech advised a heat pump puts out cooler air and therefore
larger ducts are needed, which drives the cost of a heat pump up. Is
this not true?

Rebates are as shown elsewher ein this thread, and the $350 extra
rebate of a 94% over a 90% sure won't pay the difference in cost.

I live in a trailer, so it may not convert to your experience. But, I've got
three years experience as a HVAC installer, so maybe some of that would be
relevant.

How I did it. Well, I was at a seminar on split system AC, and asked if they
had any downflow furnaces. The company had a couple left over, a brand they
don't sell any more. So they gave me a good price. I took the van and
trailer there, we loaded it all up and off I went.

In my case, the furnace was an old Miller downflow. The duct between the
furnace and the floor run was nearly useles, and I'm sure I was heating the
space under the trailer quite a bit. Of course, I framed that in nicely, and
it's very efficient, now.

As for reccomendations, I'd suggest call half a dozen heating companies. See
who makes sense, and sounds like he (or she) knows what she's doing. Look
for good manners, no swearing, and no pressure on you to make a quick
decision.

While installing a furnace, now is the time to consider central AC. Though,
it is possible to install the AC coil now, and come back for the outdoor
unit later.

The new 90% plus furnaces seem to be the rage. They take a different flue
pipe (white PVC) and also require a condensate drain for the water.

As to brands, I don't have a lot of experience. I installed Heil, Rheem,
Rudd, and my own unit is a Luxaire. Which I'm told is a York.

Some companies can calculate the heat load of your house, 100K may be too
much or too little.

If you have a generator, might be time also to wire in a transfer switch for
the furnace, so you can run it off your generator.

I learned that if you want to get flamed, post on alt.hvac.
--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


wrote in message
oups.com...
1,900 sq ft split level CBS ranch, circa 1964, with a flaky natural gas
furnace, in the temperate Portland (OR) Metro Area.

Time to replace it. Currently, have a Lennox Conservator III G16,
Model: G1603/4-100-3, Input: 100,000 BTU/Hr, Air rise: 35-65 F, and
ducting to match. Only have 5,000 sq ft of lot, and drilling is not
practical, so practicality of a ground source heat pump doesn't seem to
be there.

If you have recently replaced your furnace, would appreciate hearing
how you did it and what you learned.

Thank you kindly in advance for your on-topic remarks. Sales droids
will be spaced, out the airlock, ga-WOOSH!

Would be pleased if someone can authoritatively answer an unresolved
question: Can a heat pump work well in a ca. 1964 house whose ducting is
sized for a 100,000 BTU gas furnace?

Thank you kindly.

wrote in message
...
Would be pleased if someone can authoritatively answer an unresolved
question: Can a heat pump work well in a ca. 1964 house whose ducting is
sized for a 100,000 BTU gas furnace?

Thank you kindly.



How cold does it get outside in winter?

wrote in message
...
Would be pleased if someone can authoritatively answer an unresolved
question: Can a heat pump work well in a ca. 1964 house whose ducting is
sized for a 100,000 BTU gas furnace?

Thank you kindly.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, "Kathy" wrote:
How cold does it get outside in winter?

It freezes over hard maybe 3 days a year, is frosty for a dozen, and is
mostly cold and rainy.

Marginal electricity rate is 6.89 cents/KwH, BTW, corrected from my earlier
posting.


--
John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net
This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA.
"We're not living in a simulation. We're living in a collaborative SF novel... and now, of course, it's Philip K. Dick's turn. In a back room somewhere, Vernor Vinge and George Orwell are currently arguing about who gets to take over in 2025." (Ross Smith)

wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
Would be pleased if someone can authoritatively answer an unresolved
question: Can a heat pump work well in a ca. 1964 house whose ducting
is
sized for a 100,000 BTU gas furnace?

Thank you kindly.

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, "Kathy" wrote:
How cold does it get outside in winter?

It freezes over hard maybe 3 days a year, is frosty for a dozen, and is
mostly cold and rainy.

Marginal electricity rate is 6.89 cents/KwH, BTW, corrected from my
earlier
posting.


Then my best guess would be that a heat pump will work just fine as long as
it is sized properly and you have the right ductwork, including adequate
returns.

also, the 100,000 btu heater that you are replacing doesn't tell us anything
about your ductwork. To make sure your ductwork is adequate and the heatpump
is the correct size, you should really get a pro to do a heatload
calculation and another thing they call a manual D(I'm pretty sure that's
what it is). This involves measuring your house, including windows, doors
and ceiling height and taking note of the N/S/E/W orientation of your house
as well as the building materials. Then they enter all that info into some
magic software program and that tells them how big of a heater and ductwork
you need. Just because your old heater was 100,000 BUT's doesn't mean your
new one has to be. New ones are more efficient.

wrote in message
...
Would be pleased if someone can authoritatively answer an unresolved
question: Can a heat pump work well in a ca. 1964 house whose ducting is
sized for a 100,000 BTU gas furnace?

Thank you kindly.



Nobody can answer that without actually being there.
If the duct is sized for a 100,000 BTU furnace a similar sized heat pump
should work to, but we don't know if the duct work is proper to begin with!
Greg

obtain manuals D & J from local tech school. Be aware that doing
them by hand is a big pain in ass. Properly done each duct should be
followed and length and type of fittings, elbows, boots etc noted as
air resistance in elbows etc can dramaticly change length rating of
duct and thus air flow resistance.
stan