I have to install new garage doors, but I have no real information on this
subject. Can somebody tell me how I would install insulated garage doors to
minimize air leakage? As far as I can see, the installations are so bad
that there is no point in paying for insulation.

--
George Eberhardt
(732)224-8988

Insulation still helps and keeps the garage quieter. Check out Wayne Dalton
garage doors and their IDrive opener for something different though the
weatherstripping is typical. Their springs are fully enclosed and the
Idrive opener fits above the door instead of having a rail of its own.


"George Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
I have to install new garage doors, but I have no real information on this
subject. Can somebody tell me how I would install insulated garage doors
to
minimize air leakage? As far as I can see, the installations are so bad
that there is no point in paying for insulation.

--
George Eberhardt
(732)224-8988

George Eberhardt wrote:

I have to install new garage doors, but I have no real information on this
subject. Can somebody tell me how I would install insulated garage doors to
minimize air leakage? As far as I can see, the installations are so bad
that there is no point in paying for insulation.

Here in New England garages are considered "outside". There is
insulation around the house, but it does not include the garage. You
don't really want to pay for heat in a garage. Also, I've heard that
allowing snow to melt off your car releases the road salt in it and that
eats away your frame and body. It is probably good to allow a bit of
air circulation to carry out any moisture in the air, not to mention gas
fumes. Finally, minimizing air leakage is hard to do because you open
the garage doors regularly.

"George Eberhardt" wrote in message
...
I have to install new garage doors, but I have no real information on this
subject. Can somebody tell me how I would install insulated garage doors
to
minimize air leakage? As far as I can see, the installations are so bad
that there is no point in paying for insulation.

--
Just my opinion. No facts to back it up.

There is always going to be air leakage around the door. It is the nature
of the beast. You must have the gaps for the door to properly operate.

Insulation makes them much quieter to operate and in severe climates most
likely keeps the frost off the door and helps with the overall garage temp.
In 10 years in this house we have only had a few days where the frost formed
on the door and the room over the garage was uncomfortable. But this is a
pretty moderate climate in the winter (Central KY). If I were farther north
I would probably go insulated.


Colbyt

George Eberhardt wrote:
I have to install new garage doors, but I have no real information on
this subject. Can somebody tell me how I would install insulated
garage doors to minimize air leakage? As far as I can see, the
installations are so bad that there is no point in paying for
insulation.

In my experience the insulation helps, but don't expect miracles. With
a little care you can get a reasonable seal around the door.

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

George Eberhardt writes:

As far as I can see, the installations are so bad
that there is no point in paying for insulation.

Yours is a typical misunderstanding.

Garages are cost-effective because they control humidity, not temperature.
The real enemy to your car is a condensing atmosphere, which a garage
mostly eliminates, even if unheated and even if uninsulated. Ordinary jamb
seals and panel seals work fine to eliminate infiltration of damp outside
air.

The amortized cost of a garage is less than the amortized cost of corrosion
to your ungaraged-vs-garaged car, for typical cases of "garage" and "car".

So it typically *costs* you money *not* to have a garage.

Richard J Kinch wrote:
George Eberhardt writes:

As far as I can see, the installations are so bad
that there is no point in paying for insulation.

Yours is a typical misunderstanding.

Garages are cost-effective because they control humidity, not
temperature. The real enemy to your car is a condensing atmosphere,
which a garage mostly eliminates, even if unheated and even if
uninsulated. Ordinary jamb seals and panel seals work fine to
eliminate infiltration of damp outside air.

The amortized cost of a garage is less than the amortized cost of
corrosion to your ungaraged-vs-garaged car, for typical cases of
"garage" and "car".


While you generally will save on insurance and maybe increase resale
value and may protect the paint from sun damage with a garage; in the snow
belt, you will generally cause more corrosion damage with a garage. Keeping
the car below the freeze point will keep the salt and water inactive.
Putting it in a garage, which will generally be warmer, will warm it above
the freeze point and corrosion will start.

So it typically *costs* you money *not* to have a garage.

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Joseph Meehan writes:

Putting it in a garage, which will generally be warmer, will warm it
above the freeze point and corrosion will start.

An unheated garage will not be thawed with outside freezing more than a few
days per year, for one season. The differential is a few degrees and the
outside ambient must be within that narrow range. Depends on the local
climate how often this is the case.

But a garage *will* avoid a condensing atmosphere, for many, many days per
year, all year long.

The "freezing avoids corrosion" thesis also is questionable. Condensing vs
non-condensing has to be many times more effective than freezing vs thawed,
as regards not promoting corrosion.

Richard J Kinch wrote:
Joseph Meehan writes:

Putting it in a garage, which will generally be warmer, will warm it
above the freeze point and corrosion will start.

An unheated garage will not be thawed with outside freezing more than
a few days per year, for one season. The differential is a few
degrees and the outside ambient must be within that narrow range.
Depends on the local climate how often this is the case.

This really depends on a number of factors. However you need to
consider that the car when put back into the garage is going to contain a
lot of heat that will warm the garage. In my experience that very often
brings it above freezing.


But a garage *will* avoid a condensing atmosphere, for many, many
days per year, all year long.

The "freezing avoids corrosion" thesis also is questionable.
Condensing vs non-condensing has to be many times more effective than
freezing vs thawed, as regards not promoting corrosion.

I disagree here as well, although again that may be dependent on the
local conditions. When a car is driven into a garage wet, the garage tends
to hold in the moisture for an extended period so often even on a nice warm
dry day the inside of a garage is still damp as the dry air can not remove
the moisture.

Again however I would caution anyone from reading too much into this
part of the issue. I don't believe the difference between garage or not
garage is a major corrosion issue with cars. When it is a noticeable
factor, I believe it may go either way. There are just too many individual
differences to draw any certain conclusions.

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Joseph Meehan writes:

When a car is driven into a garage wet, the garage tends
to hold in the moisture for an extended period so often even on a nice
warm dry day the inside of a garage is still damp as the dry air can
not remove the moisture.

Come on. We're talking about outdoors, soggy wet with dew nearly every
night, vs a garage, perhaps more or less humid, but rarely condensing.

Again however I would caution anyone from reading too much into
this
part of the issue. I don't believe the difference between garage or
not garage is a major corrosion issue with cars. When it is a
noticeable factor, I believe it may go either way. There are just too
many individual differences to draw any certain conclusions.

Park your car outside, it gets wet through-and-through by condensing
vapor intrusion nearly every night. That's murder for corrosion.

I've lived with and without garages for a while. No doubt in my mind of
the value of garaging.

In New England, garages speed corrosion.

I always wanted to believe that, before I could afford a garage. It
comforts you when you're out on the street scraping off snow and ice,
despite the fact that as corrosion goes, drier (garage) beats cooler
(outdoors).

I realize science doesn't agree with you.

Correct, if by "science" you mean credulous endorsement of popular
falsehoods. Rain falls in teardrop shapes, electrons orbit in circles,
centrifugal forces keep your bicycle balanced, humidity is relative, and
leaving your car outdoors is good for it. Or so sez the guy who got his
"science" from a public school.

If by "science" you mean critical thinking applied to actual observations
with mathematical analysis, I haven't seen any from you, so I can't say
whether I agree with it or not.

True or false: chemical reactions are faster at higher temperatures
and slower at lower temperatures.

Salt corrosion is largely an aqueous phenomenon. It's plenty hot and salty
in the deserts of the southwest US, but that is exactly where the airline
industry wisely parks its mothballed aircraft, to minimize corrosion.
Because it is warm and DRY.

"Thermodynamics proposes, kinetics disposes." [Uncle Al]

Subject: Garage Doors
Newsgroup: alt.home.repair
= = wrote:

True or false: chemical reactions are faster at higher temperatures and slower
at lower temperatures.

What kind of question is that? That makes no sense.


--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

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wrote:
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:53:10 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

I realize science doesn't agree with you.

Correct, if by "science" you mean credulous endorsement of popular
falsehoods. Rain falls in teardrop shapes, electrons orbit in
circles, centrifugal forces keep your bicycle balanced, humidity is
relative, and leaving your car outdoors is good for it. Or so sez
the guy who got his "science" from a public school.

If by "science" you mean critical thinking applied to actual
observations with mathematical analysis, I haven't seen any from
you, so I can't say whether I agree with it or not.

True or false: chemical reactions are faster at higher temperatures
and slower at lower temperatures.


Most chemical reactions are faster at higher temperatures, assuming all
other factors are the same.


--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

The anonymous coward writes:

True or false: chemical reactions are faster at higher temperatures
and slower at lower temperatures.

Salt corrosion is largely an aqueous phenomenon. It's plenty hot and
salty in the deserts of the southwest US, but that is exactly where
the airline industry wisely parks its mothballed aircraft, to minimize
corrosion. Because it is warm and DRY.

True or false: chemical reactions are faster at higher temperatures
and slower at lower temperatures.

Which reactions? Some are, some aren't.

How much higher or lower in temp? One percent warmer in an unheated
garage? You think that matters?

Aqueous kinetics have more to do with corrosion rates than temperature, and
the differential exposure is overwhelming.

Joe M is right as he usualy is , but it depends on the area, location,
sun exposure etc and the Garage, mine had no vents and held moisture,
now I put them in and it is great.

Overall a dry garage reduces rubber rot, sun exposure and moisture
damage- we must include good garages, built for cars in this equasion ,
many are crap-many are good. A car in a good garage will last longer,
in a crap garage less. Few are equal

m Ransley wrote:

Joe M is right as he usualy is , but it depends on the area, location,
sun exposure etc and the Garage, mine had no vents and held moisture,
now I put them in and it is great.

Overall a dry garage reduces rubber rot, sun exposure and moisture
damage- we must include good garages, built for cars in this equasion ,
many are crap-many are good. A car in a good garage will last longer,
in a crap garage less. Few are equal

Yes. But the question is what defines a good garage. You didn't say
whether the temp should be above or below freezing.

The car rarely gets the chance to dry out completely.

You claimed this before, and I won't repeat my rebuttal.

As I said, asked and answered.