In article , "Geoman" wrote:
What if the entire home is PVC or PEX, and the service is Plastic as well?
It seems this inspector wants it on both. Or did I read into the first post
something not there?

See below (and elsewhere in this thread, in posts by myself and Tom H, among
others) where the Code is quoted or cited. This requirement applies only to
*metal* water pipe. If the service lateral, and the entire home, are plumbed
in plastic, there is no possibility of the plumbing becoming energized, and
thus no need to ground it.


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article 1108176038.4abe9f130c32678261d87f4b7e2696cc@teran ews,
"William Deans" wrote:
Greetings,

The code section that John quoted did not appear to establish a
requirement
for me to ground to the water pipe within 5/6 feet unless I wanted to use
the water pipe as part of the grounding electrode system which I don't
think
I need to do. I already have a grounding rod and the service is 100 amps.
Is there a section within the NEC which requires this?

Yes, there is. Article 250-81(a) in the 1993 Code (which is all I have at
hand
at the moment) *requires* that metal water piping be bonded to the
grounding
electrode system. Whether or not you "want" to use the water pipe as part
of
the grounding electrode system is immaterial: the Code *requires* it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"toller" wrote in message
...
Presumably your water pipe comes in through the ground; why isn't it grounded
already?
I must be missing something; I don't even know why you would want it grounded.
Is this a plumbing or electrical issue?


This is Turtle.

Some supply water service coming to the houses can be PVC pipe and will not
ground the house piping system. So you ground it because of this reason.

TURTLE

John Grabowski wrote:



"HorneTD" wrote in message
ink.net...

toller wrote:

"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...


William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric panel
and someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your ground wire
and where the pipe enters the house, and there is a fault current, the
plumber can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but
that's the reason

That assumes
1) the electrical system is grounded to the water pipes, which appears

not

to be the case
2) the ground connection between the electrical system and the utility

and

the grounding rod are both open (as they are many times better path to
ground than a plumber could possibly be)

This is pretty silly, but then that doesn't mean you are wrong.



I'm a Firefighter / Rescuer (FF/EMT) for my community and I have
responded to four different electrical injuries caused by bad grounding.
Two of those were working codes and one of those didn't make it. I
am only one EMT out of the thousands that serve in the nation so I
cannot believe that such occurrences are as rare as some of you seem to
think.

The impedance of two eight foot ground rods driven only the requisite
six feet apart is often over fifty ohms. The impedance of the
underground metal water piping is usually less than ten ohms because it
is part of a network of underground piping that interconnects the
neutrals of all the electrical services in the area. There are still
many water utilities that do not permit plastic piping for service
laterals. It is your electrical inspectors job to know if yours is one
of them.

If you loose the low impedance underground metal water piping grounding
electrode a plumber or water meter mechanic kneeling on a concrete
basement floor may well have a low enough impedance to suffer an
injurious or fatal shock.

It only takes thirty volts to overcome the skin resistance of a healthy
adult and it only takes ten milliamperes to cause a fatal cardiac
dysrhythmia called ventricular fibrillation. If the neutral service
conductor does fail 120 volts is imposed upon the grounding electrode
system. The resultant current flow divides in proportion to the
impedance of the electrodes that make up the grounding electrode system.
If the plumbing pipe connection has been broken by alterations or
repair a human in contact with any part of the grounding system could
well find themselves in deadly danger.
--
Tom H


Hi Tom,

I just wanted you to know that I found out that you were correct concerning
the need for a ground rod in a separate building. I recently attended some
continuing ed. classes to maintain my license and both instructors brought
that issue up in class without prompting from me. It turns out that it is a
common misconception even among professionals that the equipment grounding
conductor alone will satisfy the code requirements.

As for William Deans; If he had spent half as much time installing that
grounding conductor on the water pipe where the inspector told him to
instead of wasting time trying to find an excuse not to, he would have a
nice, safe, code compliant grounding electrode system. I wonder if the
inspector told him to bond the gas pipe also?


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



John

Did you notice that we are now required to use the reinforcing steel
whenever it is present because the words "when available" have been
removed from the code language. Under the 2005 code we must connect to
the rebar so the GC had better get us out to the job before the concrete
is poured.

As to this thread all we can do is provide the best information
available to us. That is were our responsibility ends. I do understand
the frustration of a home owner who is told to do it that way because I
said so. Inspectors should be trained in communication as well as in
just the codes that they are to enforce. Taking the time to explain why
it should be done a particular way will educate the home owner and
improve over all electric safety.
--
Tom

"HorneTD" wrote in message
.net...
John Grabowski wrote:



"HorneTD" wrote in message
ink.net...

toller wrote:

"RBM" rmottola1(remove wrote in message
...


William, if you attach the wire to the pipe close to the electric
panel
and someone like a plumber,disconnects the pipe between your ground
wire
and where the pipe enters the house, and there is a fault current, the
plumber can get electrocuted. I know there are a lot of if's here, but
that's the reason

That assumes
1) the electrical system is grounded to the water pipes, which appears

not

to be the case
2) the ground connection between the electrical system and the utility

and

the grounding rod are both open (as they are many times better path to
ground than a plumber could possibly be)

This is pretty silly, but then that doesn't mean you are wrong.



I'm a Firefighter / Rescuer (FF/EMT) for my community and I have
responded to four different electrical injuries caused by bad grounding.
Two of those were working codes and one of those didn't make it. I
am only one EMT out of the thousands that serve in the nation so I
cannot believe that such occurrences are as rare as some of you seem to
think.

The impedance of two eight foot ground rods driven only the requisite
six feet apart is often over fifty ohms. The impedance of the
underground metal water piping is usually less than ten ohms because it
is part of a network of underground piping that interconnects the
neutrals of all the electrical services in the area. There are still
many water utilities that do not permit plastic piping for service
laterals. It is your electrical inspectors job to know if yours is one
of them.

If you loose the low impedance underground metal water piping grounding
electrode a plumber or water meter mechanic kneeling on a concrete
basement floor may well have a low enough impedance to suffer an
injurious or fatal shock.

It only takes thirty volts to overcome the skin resistance of a healthy
adult and it only takes ten milliamperes to cause a fatal cardiac
dysrhythmia called ventricular fibrillation. If the neutral service
conductor does fail 120 volts is imposed upon the grounding electrode
system. The resultant current flow divides in proportion to the
impedance of the electrodes that make up the grounding electrode system.
If the plumbing pipe connection has been broken by alterations or
repair a human in contact with any part of the grounding system could
well find themselves in deadly danger.
--
Tom H


Hi Tom,

I just wanted you to know that I found out that you were correct
concerning
the need for a ground rod in a separate building. I recently attended
some
continuing ed. classes to maintain my license and both instructors
brought
that issue up in class without prompting from me. It turns out that it
is a
common misconception even among professionals that the equipment
grounding
conductor alone will satisfy the code requirements.

As for William Deans; If he had spent half as much time installing that
grounding conductor on the water pipe where the inspector told him to
instead of wasting time trying to find an excuse not to, he would have a
nice, safe, code compliant grounding electrode system. I wonder if the
inspector told him to bond the gas pipe also?


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



John

Did you notice that we are now required to use the reinforcing steel
whenever it is present because the words "when available" have been
removed from the code language. Under the 2005 code we must connect to
the rebar so the GC had better get us out to the job before the concrete
is poured.

As to this thread all we can do is provide the best information
available to us. That is were our responsibility ends. I do understand
the frustration of a home owner who is told to do it that way because I
said so. Inspectors should be trained in communication as well as in
just the codes that they are to enforce. Taking the time to explain why
it should be done a particular way will educate the home owner and
improve over all electric safety.
--
Tom

Yeah the rebar connection came up in class. The instructor said that if we
are lucky to get there in time to bond to it that would be great. If not,
he said that they will probably start making it the responsibility of the
general contractor or the masonry contractor to install the bonding wire.
The plumbing contractors in this state are now required to install the
hot/cold bonding jumper when they replace a water heater.

I've talked to several inspectors about the homeowner do-it-yourself issue.
Basically they don't like it because it is more work for them and they
always find more problems or shortcomings then they do with an experienced
contractor. One inspector told me that he is not here to instruct
homeowners on how to do a good job. Here in NJ not all inspectors are
directly employed by the city or town. We have third party agencies that
have contracts with towns to inspect electrical jobs being done in their
jurisdiction. Those private agency guys just want to get in and inspect and
get out. If they fail the job, their only legal requirement is to cite the
code article that justifies the failure.

I personally believe that if someone is willing to take on project without
prior experience, he or she should spend a lot of time studying up on it
before the project begins. It seems as though some people don't ask
questions until they have begun the work.

John G.

John

Did you notice that we are now required to use the reinforcing steel
whenever it is present because the words "when available" have been
removed from the code language. Under the 2005 code we must connect to
the rebar so the GC had better get us out to the job before the concrete
is poured.

--
Tom


Yeah the rebar connection came up in class. The instructor said that if we
are lucky to get there in time to bond to it that would be great. If not,
he said that they will probably start making it the responsibility of the
general contractor or the masonry contractor to install the bonding wire.
The plumbing contractors in this state are now required to install the
hot/cold bonding jumper when they replace a water heater.


The remedy I favor is to have the concrete guys stub up a piece of
corrosion resistant coated rebar at the location of the planned service
equipment. I don't want the concrete guys or the reinforcement
assemblers making any connection that I will then become responsible for
so they can just stub up a piece of rod and leave it for me to do the
rest. A stubbed up piece of half inch or larger rebar is far more
resistant to physical damage during construction then a grounding
electrode conductor of any gage that would have to survive the
construction process for months until the electricians can get on the
job and make the connection.
--
Tom H

"HorneTD" wrote in message
.net...
John

Did you notice that we are now required to use the reinforcing steel
whenever it is present because the words "when available" have been
removed from the code language. Under the 2005 code we must connect
to
the rebar so the GC had better get us out to the job before the
concrete
is poured.

--
Tom


Yeah the rebar connection came up in class. The instructor said that if
we
are lucky to get there in time to bond to it that would be great. If
not,
he said that they will probably start making it the responsibility of
the
general contractor or the masonry contractor to install the bonding
wire.
The plumbing contractors in this state are now required to install the
hot/cold bonding jumper when they replace a water heater.


The remedy I favor is to have the concrete guys stub up a piece of
corrosion resistant coated rebar at the location of the planned service
equipment. I don't want the concrete guys or the reinforcement
assemblers making any connection that I will then become responsible for
so they can just stub up a piece of rod and leave it for me to do the
rest. A stubbed up piece of half inch or larger rebar is far more
resistant to physical damage during construction then a grounding
electrode conductor of any gage that would have to survive the
construction process for months until the electricians can get on the
job and make the connection.
--
Tom H

That is ideal, but in many cases an electrical contractor has not been hired
at that stage of construction. In residential construction here rebar is
not always used in the footings. Currently NJ has not yet adopted the 2005
NEC and if and when they do some requirements may get omitted. For
instance, arc fault circuit interrupters are not required here.

Yeah the rebar connection came up in class. The instructor said
that if we are lucky to get there in time to bond to it that
would be great. If not, he said that they will probably start
making it the responsibility of the general contractor or the
masonry contractor to install the bonding wire.

The plumbing contractors in this state are now required to
install the hot/cold bonding jumper when they replace a water
heater.

The remedy I favor is to have the concrete guys stub up a piece of
corrosion resistant coated rebar at the location of the planned
service equipment. I don't want the concrete guys or the
reinforcement assemblers making any connection that I will then
become responsible for so they can just stub up a piece of rod and
leave it for me to do the rest. A stubbed up piece of half inch or
larger rebar is far more resistant to physical damage during
construction then a grounding electrode conductor of any gage that
would have to survive the construction process for months until the
electricians can get on the job and make the connection. -- Tom H


That is ideal, but in many cases an electrical contractor has not
been hired at that stage of construction. In residential
construction here rebar is not always used in the footings.
Currently NJ has not yet adopted the 2005 NEC and if and when they do
some requirements may get omitted. For instance, arc fault circuit
interrupters are not required here.

Well if there is no steel in the footer we are off the hook anyway. If
the building inspectors require a stub up for those footers that have
reinforcing steel then the scheduling of the electrician will be a much
smaller problem.

I solute those jurisdictions who realized that the installation of AFCIs
in new homes is a solution in search of a problem. On the other hand I
do try to install them on every heavy up that involves older BX with no
bonding strip or knob and tube wiring.

toller wrote:

I put an addition on my house that removed one window from a bedroom.
The
remaining window provided only 90% of the required ventilation.
Since the
house had central AC that was pretty irrelevant, but I had to spend
$500 to
put in a window 2" wider. (Maybe a bribe would have been cheaper?)

There may be more to the issue than ventillation. When I was replacing
windows using Pella "replacement" windows, the inspector was interested
in the sizes of the replacements because windows are a means of egress
during emergency, like in a fire. I guess the idea is if the glass is
smashed out by throwing a chair through the window, there needs to be
enough of an opening through which to squeeze an American Fatt Butt
lest it become an insurance statistic.

%mod%

I've never known of someone to go the trouble and expense of putting an
addition on a property he didn't own while calling it "my house." Or is
your point that toller isn't in the US and inspectors are less lenient
where he lives?

%mod%

William Deans wrote:
Greetings,

It's too bad you don't own your own property in (at least some parts
of)
America and you couldn't instead use the $500 to take your family on
a nice
weekend vacation.

William

"toller" wrote in message
...

"William Deans" wrote in message
news:1108178866.32048c496692205852b8ada4e5768e80@t eranews...
I think I am going to replace the first 6 feet of water pipe with
plastic
and invite the inspector back over.

Sorry, I think you have a moron; but as someone pointed out, he's
the
inspector.
I put an addition on my house that removed one window from a
bedroom. The
remaining window provided only 90% of the required ventilation.
Since the
house had central AC that was pretty irrelevant, but I had to spend
$500
to
put in a window 2" wider. (Maybe a bribe would have been cheaper?)
In otherwords, while I would ask him to specify the code section
you are
in
violation of, you will probably have to put in a ground rod.

There may be more to the issue than ventillation. When I was replacing
windows using Pella "replacement" windows, the inspector was interested
in the sizes of the replacements because windows are a means of egress
during emergency, like in a fire. I guess the idea is if the glass is
smashed out by throwing a chair through the window, there needs to be
enough of an opening through which to squeeze an American Fatt Butt
lest it become an insurance statistic.

Nope, the window has to actually open to count as a means of egress.
Well, at least the lower sash does.

According to the 1997 Uniform Building Code (Sec. 310.4): "Escape or
rescue windows shall have a minimum net clear openable area of 5.7
square feet (0.53 square meter). The minimum net clear openable height
dimension shall be 24 inches (610mm). The minimum net clear openable
width dimension shall be 20 inches (508mm). When windows are provided
as a means of escape or rescue, they shall have a finished sill height
not more than 44 inches (1118mm) above the floor."

There may be more to the issue than ventillation. When I was
replacing
windows using Pella "replacement" windows, the inspector was
interested
in the sizes of the replacements because windows are a means of
egress
during emergency, like in a fire. I guess the idea is if the glass
is
smashed out by throwing a chair through the window, there needs to
be
enough of an opening through which to squeeze an American Fatt Butt
lest it become an insurance statistic.

Goedjn wrote:
Nope, the window has to actually open to count as a means of egress.
Well, at least the lower sash does.

According to the 1997 Uniform Building Code (Sec. 310.4): "Escape or
rescue windows shall have a minimum net clear openable area of 5.7
square feet (0.53 square meter). The minimum net clear openable
height
dimension shall be 24 inches (610mm). The minimum net clear openable
width dimension shall be 20 inches (508mm). When windows are provided
as a means of escape or rescue, they shall have a finished sill
height
not more than 44 inches (1118mm) above the floor."

OK, cool, thanks. So change that part about smashing the glass to
opening the lower sash. At any rate the point stands that it's not just
about ventillation. When a window is eliminated by a remodel, it
probably gives the inspector authority to require that other items in
the room be brought up to current codes.

%mod%