Hi folks,

I'm having problems with my Amana 80 gas furnace. Every few minutes,
the flame will shut off, and immediately, the igniter powers up,
gas valve opens, and the flame lights again. A couple of minutes
later, the flame shuts off and the cycle repeats. It's real cold
(-24C/-11F) if that makes any difference.

What I've done so far:

1) sanded the flame sensor, which wasn't really dirty - no change
2) shielded the backflow sensor from heat - no change
3) checked the trouble code LED - no codes
4) both fans work
5) chimney relay did not trip

Any ideas or experiences to share would be much appreciated.

--
rudy
at
cae
dot com is my real email address, but please reply to group

You have a decision:

A) Continue playing with something you have no clue about.
B) Call someone who can fix it.
Follow any advice but B at your own peril.

"Rudy Taraschi" wrote in message
...
Hi folks,

I'm having problems with my Amana 80 gas furnace. Every few minutes,
the flame will shut off, and immediately, the igniter powers up,
gas valve opens, and the flame lights again. A couple of minutes
later, the flame shuts off and the cycle repeats. It's real cold
(-24C/-11F) if that makes any difference.

What I've done so far:

1) sanded the flame sensor, which wasn't really dirty - no change
2) shielded the backflow sensor from heat - no change
3) checked the trouble code LED - no codes
4) both fans work
5) chimney relay did not trip

Any ideas or experiences to share would be much appreciated.

--
rudy
at
cae
dot com is my real email address, but please reply to group

Un-shield the so called 'back flow sensor'!

Next if your design temp is close to the actual temps you are experiencing,
maybe the stat is calling for heat before the fan shuts down. If not there
is a definite problem.

I suggest you call an HVAC company to clean and inspect the unit. When was
the last time it was done?

~kjpro~

Hi ~KJPRO~,

Thanks for the quick reply! In alt.home.repair, you wrote:

2) shielded the backflow sensor from heat - no change

Un-shield the so called 'back flow sensor'!

Sorry I wasn't clear in my original post. I shielded the sensor for
just long enough to see that the problem still occurred (a couple of
minutes with me watching like a hawk). I did not bypass it
permanently.

Next if your design temp is close to the actual temps you are
experiencing, maybe the stat is calling for heat before the fan
shuts down. If not there is a definite problem.

The fan is set up to run constantly. On my thermostat, this is
called "Emergency heat" mode; the furnace is set up to use this
switch to shut off the heatpump during deep freeze temperatures
(basically January and February).

You're the second person to suggest the thermostat (I got another
answer by private email because the person did not feel like getting
flamed publicly if he said something wrong). My symptoms are
exactly like someone sitting at the thermostat (old mercury style)
and moving the setpoint above and below ambient every few minutes.

I suggest you call an HVAC company to clean and inspect the
unit. When was the last time it was done?

I had an HVAC guy do a cursory check about a year ago (furnace is
less than 10 years old). I've called for a full service checkup
(inspect, clean, etc) and am waiting for an appointmnet. They're
pretty busy when it's this cold outside.

Thanks again!

--
rudy
at
cae
dot com is my real email address, but please reply to group

Matt,

You have passed the first set of criteria for considering a career
as a quintessential HVAC professional - smug, critical and offering
no useful advice.

Gideon

(My apologies to the HVAC experts who aren't jerks.)

======================

Matt wrote in message . com...
You have a decision:

A) Continue playing with something you have no clue about.
B) Call someone who can fix it.
Follow any advice but B at your own peril.

**** YOU, Gideon.

Sounds like you've had your ass handed to you a few times already.

If you don't consider advising someone to not take steps that could
kill them, or their family 'useful' - then I would suggest your
priorities are as ****ed up as your tiny brain.

Furnaces KILL when people WHO DONT KNOW WHAT THE **** THEY ARE DOING
play with them.

On 27 Jan 2005 18:20:27 GMT, Rudy Taraschi
wrote:

Hi ~KJPRO~,

Thanks for the quick reply! In alt.home.repair, you wrote:

2) shielded the backflow sensor from heat - no change

Un-shield the so called 'back flow sensor'!

Sorry I wasn't clear in my original post. I shielded the sensor for
just long enough to see that the problem still occurred (a couple of
minutes with me watching like a hawk). I did not bypass it
permanently.

Next if your design temp is close to the actual temps you are
experiencing, maybe the stat is calling for heat before the fan
shuts down. If not there is a definite problem.

The fan is set up to run constantly. On my thermostat, this is
called "Emergency heat" mode; the furnace is set up to use this
switch to shut off the heatpump during deep freeze temperatures
(basically January and February).

You're the second person to suggest the thermostat (I got another
answer by private email because the person did not feel like getting
flamed publicly if he said something wrong). My symptoms are
exactly like someone sitting at the thermostat (old mercury style)
and moving the setpoint above and below ambient every few minutes.

I suggest you call an HVAC company to clean and inspect the
unit. When was the last time it was done?

I had an HVAC guy do a cursory check about a year ago (furnace is
less than 10 years old). I've called for a full service checkup
(inspect, clean, etc) and am waiting for an appointmnet. They're
pretty busy when it's this cold outside.

Thanks again!

Just too damn funny. First its an 80% gas furnace and all of a sudden
the heat pump pops into the picture.
Best advice you'll ever get:
1) Leave the damn thing alone
2) Call your service company back again (or another company) and tell
them your furnace is NOT working properly. This is NOT a freaking
tune-up or a clean and check call. You are trying to get off cheap.
You need a service call to correct the problem and THEN you can
consider getting it cleaned and checked.
"Oh my, my furnace is broke but I'll just call for a clean and check
so it wont cost so much." You arent fooling anyone and especially you
wont fool the tech that comes out.
Bubba

Bubba wrote:

Just too damn funny. First its an 80% gas furnace and all of a
sudden the heat pump pops into the picture.

Unless I'm missing something, the heatpump is *not* in the picture
- it's switched out. I've been switching out the heatpump when it
gets cold for 10+ years. This setup is pretty standard up here in
Montreal.

Best advice you'll ever get:
1) Leave the damn thing alone

I'm not trying to fix the thing, I'm trying to do my homework and
figure out what's wrong so that (a) I don't get fleeced, and (b)
if I get a brain donor for a tech, I won't be left with a broken
furnace two weeks after he "fixes" it.

2) Call your service company back again (or another company) and
tell them your furnace is NOT working properly. This is NOT a
freaking tune-up or a clean and check call. You are trying to get
off cheap.

The previous two times I had someone over, they were techs from
local HVAC service companies. This time, I actually went directly
to the Gaz company for their expen$ive techs. I'm not trying to
save money, I'm trying to get my furnace fixed, and have time to
kill before the tech arrives Saturday morning.

You need a service call to correct the problem and THEN you can
consider getting it cleaned and checked. "Oh my, my furnace is
broke but I'll just call for a clean and check so it wont cost so
much." You arent fooling anyone and especially you wont fool the
tech that comes out.

Err ... not really. What I told the phone operator was exactly
what I said in my original email. My furnace isn't working right.
It does this blah blah blah. Please send someone to check what's
wrong, FIX IT, and do a routine service on it while he's here. I
logged the call as a "problem" and not a "routine service call".

On 27 Jan 2005 12:31:32 -0800, "Matt" wrote:

**** YOU, Gideon.

Sounds like you've had your ass handed to you a few times already.

If you don't consider advising someone to not take steps that could
kill them, or their family 'useful' - then I would suggest your
priorities are as ****ed up as your tiny brain.

Furnaces KILL when people WHO DONT KNOW WHAT THE **** THEY ARE DOING
play with them.
And you are going to save the ****in world you moron?

If you offer nothing constructive other than your ****in dim wit then
SHUT THE **** UP!!

"Rudy Taraschi" wrote in message
...
You're the second person to suggest the thermostat (I got another
answer by private email because the person did not feel like getting
flamed publicly if he said something wrong).


Then he is a pussy, or a clueless Hack like Stormin.

If he was a real pro, he'd have nothing to worry about!
People make mistakes, but not to post on the web is just crazy.

Most likely he is afraid to say something wrong cause he/she is a new
tech...so be it...they'll never learn if they don't post to find out the
correct answers.

If they say something wrong and they get corrected...oh well...they learned
something. That's part of it!


My symptoms are
exactly like someone sitting at the thermostat (old mercury style)
and moving the setpoint above and below ambient every few minutes.


No, I didn't say it could be the stat, I said that if you are experiancing
around design ambient temps that the stat could be calling for heat soon
after the stat is satified.

Which means, your home is loosing heat very rapidly...when the furnace runs
amd heats the home to temp...then it doesn't take long for the home to cool
and call for heat once again.


kjpro


I suggest you call an HVAC company to clean and inspect the
unit. When was the last time it was done?

I had an HVAC guy do a cursory check about a year ago (furnace is
less than 10 years old). I've called for a full service checkup
(inspect, clean, etc) and am waiting for an appointmnet. They're
pretty busy when it's this cold outside.

Thanks again!

--
rudy
at
cae
dot com is my real email address, but please reply to group

You have no evidence that the poster is a moron. And even if you
do, there is no need to be caustic and fail to offer useful advice.

The language that you use and the tone of your "advice" speaks
volumes. I don't know what you occupation is, but you display
the attitude which creates hatred for people in various trades
and professions - HVAC, auto repair, appliance repair, computer
repair, medicine, lawyers, etc.

And I've never "had my ass handed to me a few times", whatever
that is supposed to mean. I'm very good at doing my own repairs,
I know when I'm in over my head and/or too busy to mess with a
repair on my own, I often know more about the chemistry, physics
and engineering involved then the "expert" I hire for repairs, I have
no complaint about hiring a good/competent/friendly tradesperson
to do my work, etc. Over the past several decades I've saved my
neighbors THOUSANDS of dollars on HVAC repairs. Likewise for
auto repairs, appliance repairs, computer problems and a variety
of other repairs.

The honest and ethical professional should NEVER feel threatened
by competent amateurs.

Several times I've saved a neighbor the cost of an entire new AC
system mandated by some HVAC "expert." Typical cost - a half
hour or so of my time and a few cents worth of parts and materials.
I've also caught HVAC guys installing used part and wrong parts
and charging over-inflated costs for new parts. (Once again, I know
some extremely honest HVAC people and several members of my
family are in HVAC, but it is a field which has many hacks. The
freon bans and licensing have exacerbated the problem.)

For example: I've had 4 or 5 neighbors whose old AC units had a
"horrible noise coming from that outside unit". The HVAC guy
comes out and says, "Wow, you fan outside is shot. The bearings
are crap from neglect, you idiot. We're honest guys and we could
install a new fan, but that's a lot of money and you'd be stupid to
spend so much money when we could install a whole new compressor
unit outside for just a bit more. Of course, if we do that, it would be
stupid not to just toss in a whole new AC unit - economy of scale
and all that. Plus you'd be getting a much better system. The
new systems are much more efficient and that old unit of yours
probably only has a SEER rating of 1 or 2 or less. You'd be wasting
money not to put in a new system. You'll be getting this $4,000
system free just in the energy savings from one season in reduced
electricity cost. Would I lie to you?"

As one example, I drilled holes in the sealed bearing housings on
the outside fan for one neighbor (among MANY). I dropped in 20
cents worth of ten-weight oil plus 10 cents worth of hot-melt glue
to seal the new oil hole that I had just created. Will this rejuvinate
worn bears?

Absolutely not. But it will make an old fan function reasonably well.
The homeowner in this particular situation got very adequate service
for 5 years until he moved. And the new owner got 4 more years
service before replacing the entire AC system. That's nine years
service for 30 CENTS and a half hour's effort. (Ok, I'll be honest.
I also spent a half hour testing the system and I added a dollar
or two of R-22 to the system. And I checked the system every
year and topped off a bit of R-22 as needed. I'll also admit that
a new unit would have been more efficient, but this particular pair
of homeowners used their AC in our Northern climate very little
and the savings from a newer unit would have been small).

That is NOT an isolated story.

Many, but not all, HVAC people (along with many other professionals),
in conjunction with amateurs who think that they are HVAC experts,
love to scare the crap out of people. Do furnaces blow up or do they
kill people from CO build-up? Yeah. Does it happen often? Hell no.
A total moron can kill his family by venturing into areas that he doesn't
belong, but I saw no evidence that the original poster was a moron
or that he was likely to make any fatal mistakes.

An amateur has an older furnace and the pilot won't stay lit. He checks
the pilot plus the gas valve and determines that the coil on the gas
valve is weak and he replaces it himself. He's sloppy and he gets a
less-than-perfect fitting on one of the gas fittings. If he is a total moron,
then his nose (or another family member's nose) is quickly going to
tell him that he fouled up. But in most cases, the family is going to
hear a little "pop" when the furnace kicks in. He'll fix it, he'll get a
friend to help him fix it, he'll break down and call in an HVAC "pro",
or he'll wait until he wakes up at 3 AM to a very loud (but relatively
safe) pop/boom from the furnace. Trust me, I've seen some relative
morons work on their own furnaces and nobody died.

I am NOT encouraging the many repair-challenged morons of America
to do their own brake repairs or furnace repairs. But there is nothing
wrong with a reasonably intelligent person doing some of the more
basic repairs, especially if he seeks advice from those who appear
to be knowledgeable . And he MUST be willing to admit when he
is in over his head and call in a "pro" - bracing himself to possibly
get raped in the process.

Also, I am not disparaging the many honest HVAC people in
America. They have a specialized skill and a right to a living wage.
Just resist the urge to become smug, arrogrant, or greedy. You
can make an honest living and still be an honest, ethical and
helpful person.

And if somebody asks for advice on Usenet, offer some friendly,
helpful advice or shut your mouth.

Gideon


Matt wrote in message
.com...
**** YOU, Gideon.

Sounds like you've had your ass handed to you a few times already.

If you don't consider advising someone to not take steps that could
kill them, or their family 'useful' - then I would suggest your
priorities are as ****ed up as your tiny brain.

Furnaces KILL when people WHO DONT KNOW WHAT THE **** THEY ARE DOING
play with them.

"Rudy Taraschi" wrote in message
...
Hi folks,

I'm having problems with my Amana 80 gas furnace. Every few minutes,
the flame will shut off, and immediately, the igniter powers up,
gas valve opens, and the flame lights again. A couple of minutes
later, the flame shuts off and the cycle repeats. It's real cold
(-24C/-11F) if that makes any difference.

What I've done so far:

1) sanded the flame sensor, which wasn't really dirty - no change
2) shielded the backflow sensor from heat - no change
3) checked the trouble code LED - no codes
4) both fans work
5) chimney relay did not trip

Any ideas or experiences to share would be much appreciated.

--
rudy
at
cae
dot com is my real email address, but please reply to group

This is Turtle.

After all is said and done it just sounds like the Heat Antisipator is set wrong
, not on the thermostat, or burnt. As I have read your using the gas heat as
back up to a heat pump but you probley have a heat pump type thermostat on it
and some heat pump thermostats don't have antisipators on them to be used in
this application. If this is the case your short cycling on having no Heat
antisipator on the heat pump thermostat.

TURTLE

Gidget,

I'm happy that you have convinced yourself that you are qualified to
work on something you have no business touching.

So convinced, in fact, that you have decided you are also now qualified
to help others by spreading your lack knowledge of things you know
nothing about to others who are even more clueless than yourself.
I'll be looking for your obituary. Or not.