Ignoramus13229 wrote:

As some of you might remember, I own a well working Onan DJE
generator, 7kW continuous.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

I will soon start working on setting up a proper transfer switch. I am
now deciding which one.

SOME BACKGROUND:

3400 sq ft house plus finished full basement, 200A service, almost all
slots in the panel taken. A lot of little circuits. (which has its
advantages). Many of these circuits power very small equipment like
lights, phones etc.

The generator will be installed behind the house, very close to the
panel. It will still be on its carriage.

My objective is to do work that can be UNdone if I want to sell the
house. Hence, I would prefer to not do any service entrance type work.

I have, logically, two alternatives.

1. Buy a prewired transfer switch.

2. Add a large subpanel, move all breakers that I want to be on a
generator, there, and insert a transfer switch between subpanel and
main panel.

Note that this would involve also making wire connections in the main
box, since the circuits are terminated in the main box, obviously, but
the breakers will be in the subpanel box. Because of this, I am not
sure if choice 2 is even legal.

Assuming it is, I see some advantages of 2) over 1).

1. Being able to add more circuits due to having an extra subpanel.

2. Being able to power more circuits in case of an outage, and being
able to choose which ones to turn on and off, with breakers.

Any thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i


You might consider hiring an electrician to install a 200A DPDT switch
between your electric meter and your service entrance panel. Hardwire
the generator to the switch with appropriately big service entrance
cable. When you move, you can disconnect the generator (to take it with
you) and leave the switch -- it will function as a disconnect for the
house, and the new owners can use it to hook up their generator.

I don't know if this will require any modifications at your service
panel (installing a ground bus and seperating the grounds and neutrals,
etc.)

You don't want to do this yourself. I *might* try it myself if I got
permission from the utility company to pull the meter and reinstall it
when I was done.

This is one of those jobs where you really should get a permit.

Best regards,
Bob

Ignoramus13229 wrote:
On 2005-01-10, zxcvbob wrote:

Ignoramus13229 wrote:


As some of you might remember, I own a well working Onan DJE
generator, 7kW continuous.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

I will soon start working on setting up a proper transfer switch. I am
now deciding which one.

SOME BACKGROUND:

3400 sq ft house plus finished full basement, 200A service, almost all
slots in the panel taken. A lot of little circuits. (which has its
advantages). Many of these circuits power very small equipment like
lights, phones etc.

The generator will be installed behind the house, very close to the
panel. It will still be on its carriage.

My objective is to do work that can be UNdone if I want to sell the
house. Hence, I would prefer to not do any service entrance type work.

I have, logically, two alternatives.

1. Buy a prewired transfer switch.

2. Add a large subpanel, move all breakers that I want to be on a
generator, there, and insert a transfer switch between subpanel and
main panel.

Note that this would involve also making wire connections in the main
box, since the circuits are terminated in the main box, obviously, but
the breakers will be in the subpanel box. Because of this, I am not
sure if choice 2 is even legal.

Assuming it is, I see some advantages of 2) over 1).

1. Being able to add more circuits due to having an extra subpanel.

2. Being able to power more circuits in case of an outage, and being
able to choose which ones to turn on and off, with breakers.

Any thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i


You might consider hiring an electrician to install a 200A DPDT switch
between your electric meter and your service entrance panel. Hardwire
the generator to the switch with appropriately big service entrance
cable. When you move, you can disconnect the generator (to take it with
you) and leave the switch -- it will function as a disconnect for the
house, and the new owners can use it to hook up their generator.

I don't know if this will require any modifications at your service
panel (installing a ground bus and seperating the grounds and neutrals,
etc.)

You don't want to do this yourself. I *might* try it myself if I got
permission from the utility company to pull the meter and reinstall it
when I was done.

This is one of those jobs where you really should get a permit.


Bob, do you have an idea how much it could cost (beside the cost of
the switch). I have no clue.

i


No idea. Probably a couple of hundred dollars just for the enclosed
switch. I'm not an electrician, and I've never had occasion to wire a
transfer switch. There are a lot of subtleties to a job like this --
whether the switch should be fused or not, solid neutral vs. switched
neutral, etc. -- the whole thing needs to be planned out before you
start, otherwise you will cause a lot of complications later, mostly
dealing with proper grounding of the panels and the generator.

You need to get your garage subpanel fixed before you start worrying
about a generator transfer switch.

Bob

We put a 30amp (per leg) auto transfer switch feeding our main panel.
Two inputs, generator, or inverter. Got the switch from
www.backwoodssolar.com for $126.

Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

zxcvbob wrote:
Ignoramus13229 wrote:

On 2005-01-10, zxcvbob wrote:

Ignoramus13229 wrote:


As some of you might remember, I own a well working Onan DJE
generator, 7kW continuous.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

I will soon start working on setting up a proper transfer switch. I am
now deciding which one.
SOME BACKGROUND:

3400 sq ft house plus finished full basement, 200A service, almost all
slots in the panel taken. A lot of little circuits. (which has its
advantages). Many of these circuits power very small equipment like
lights, phones etc.

The generator will be installed behind the house, very close to the
panel. It will still be on its carriage.

My objective is to do work that can be UNdone if I want to sell the
house. Hence, I would prefer to not do any service entrance type work.

I have, logically, two alternatives.

1. Buy a prewired transfer switch.

2. Add a large subpanel, move all breakers that I want to be on a
generator, there, and insert a transfer switch between subpanel and
main panel.

Note that this would involve also making wire connections in the main
box, since the circuits are terminated in the main box, obviously, but
the breakers will be in the subpanel box. Because of this, I am not
sure if choice 2 is even legal.

Assuming it is, I see some advantages of 2) over 1).

1. Being able to add more circuits due to having an extra subpanel.

2. Being able to power more circuits in case of an outage, and being
able to choose which ones to turn on and off, with breakers.

Any thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i



You might consider hiring an electrician to install a 200A DPDT
switch between your electric meter and your service entrance panel.
Hardwire the generator to the switch with appropriately big service
entrance cable. When you move, you can disconnect the generator (to
take it with you) and leave the switch -- it will function as a
disconnect for the house, and the new owners can use it to hook up
their generator.

I don't know if this will require any modifications at your service
panel (installing a ground bus and seperating the grounds and
neutrals, etc.)

You don't want to do this yourself. I *might* try it myself if I got
permission from the utility company to pull the meter and reinstall
it when I was done.

This is one of those jobs where you really should get a permit.



Bob, do you have an idea how much it could cost (beside the cost of
the switch). I have no clue.

i



No idea. Probably a couple of hundred dollars just for the enclosed
switch. I'm not an electrician, and I've never had occasion to wire a
transfer switch. There are a lot of subtleties to a job like this --
whether the switch should be fused or not, solid neutral vs. switched
neutral, etc. -- the whole thing needs to be planned out before you
start, otherwise you will cause a lot of complications later, mostly
dealing with proper grounding of the panels and the generator.

You need to get your garage subpanel fixed before you start worrying
about a generator transfer switch.

Bob

30 amps per leg, 3 legs.

Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

Ignoramus13229 wrote:
On 2005-01-10, Steve Spence wrote:

We put a 30amp (per leg) auto transfer switch feeding our main panel.
Two inputs, generator, or inverter. Got the switch from
www.backwoodssolar.com for $126.


Thank you Steve. In my case, I need a lot more on the utility side.

Also, I am a little surprised as I thought that your unit was rated
12.5 kW, which comes to 50+ amps per leg, not 30 as you noted.

i


Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust
http://www.green-trust.org

zxcvbob wrote:

Ignoramus13229 wrote:


On 2005-01-10, zxcvbob wrote:


Ignoramus13229 wrote:



As some of you might remember, I own a well working Onan DJE
generator, 7kW continuous.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

I will soon start working on setting up a proper transfer switch. I am
now deciding which one.
SOME BACKGROUND:

3400 sq ft house plus finished full basement, 200A service, almost all
slots in the panel taken. A lot of little circuits. (which has its
advantages). Many of these circuits power very small equipment like
lights, phones etc.

The generator will be installed behind the house, very close to the
panel. It will still be on its carriage.

My objective is to do work that can be UNdone if I want to sell the
house. Hence, I would prefer to not do any service entrance type work.

I have, logically, two alternatives.

1. Buy a prewired transfer switch.

2. Add a large subpanel, move all breakers that I want to be on a
generator, there, and insert a transfer switch between subpanel and
main panel.

Note that this would involve also making wire connections in the main
box, since the circuits are terminated in the main box, obviously, but
the breakers will be in the subpanel box. Because of this, I am not
sure if choice 2 is even legal.

Assuming it is, I see some advantages of 2) over 1).

1. Being able to add more circuits due to having an extra subpanel.

2. Being able to power more circuits in case of an outage, and being
able to choose which ones to turn on and off, with breakers.

Any thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i



You might consider hiring an electrician to install a 200A DPDT
switch between your electric meter and your service entrance panel.
Hardwire the generator to the switch with appropriately big service
entrance cable. When you move, you can disconnect the generator (to
take it with you) and leave the switch -- it will function as a
disconnect for the house, and the new owners can use it to hook up
their generator.

I don't know if this will require any modifications at your service
panel (installing a ground bus and seperating the grounds and
neutrals, etc.)

You don't want to do this yourself. I *might* try it myself if I got
permission from the utility company to pull the meter and reinstall
it when I was done.

This is one of those jobs where you really should get a permit.



Bob, do you have an idea how much it could cost (beside the cost of
the switch). I have no clue.

i



No idea. Probably a couple of hundred dollars just for the enclosed
switch. I'm not an electrician, and I've never had occasion to wire a
transfer switch. There are a lot of subtleties to a job like this --
whether the switch should be fused or not, solid neutral vs. switched
neutral, etc. -- the whole thing needs to be planned out before you
start, otherwise you will cause a lot of complications later, mostly
dealing with proper grounding of the panels and the generator.

You need to get your garage subpanel fixed before you start worrying
about a generator transfer switch.

Bob

Ignoramus13229 wrote:
On 2005-01-10, zxcvbob wrote:

Ignoramus13229 wrote:


As some of you might remember, I own a well working Onan DJE
generator, 7kW continuous.

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

I will soon start working on setting up a proper transfer switch. I am
now deciding which one.

SOME BACKGROUND:

3400 sq ft house plus finished full basement, 200A service, almost all
slots in the panel taken. A lot of little circuits. (which has its
advantages). Many of these circuits power very small equipment like
lights, phones etc.

The generator will be installed behind the house, very close to the
panel. It will still be on its carriage.

My objective is to do work that can be UNdone if I want to sell the
house. Hence, I would prefer to not do any service entrance type work.

I have, logically, two alternatives.

1. Buy a prewired transfer switch.

2. Add a large subpanel, move all breakers that I want to be on a
generator, there, and insert a transfer switch between subpanel and
main panel.

Note that this would involve also making wire connections in the main
box, since the circuits are terminated in the main box, obviously, but
the breakers will be in the subpanel box. Because of this, I am not
sure if choice 2 is even legal.

Assuming it is, I see some advantages of 2) over 1).

1. Being able to add more circuits due to having an extra subpanel.

2. Being able to power more circuits in case of an outage, and being
able to choose which ones to turn on and off, with breakers.

Any thoughts on this will be appreciated.

i


You might consider hiring an electrician to install a 200A DPDT switch
between your electric meter and your service entrance panel. Hardwire
the generator to the switch with appropriately big service entrance
cable. When you move, you can disconnect the generator (to take it with
you) and leave the switch -- it will function as a disconnect for the
house, and the new owners can use it to hook up their generator.

I don't know if this will require any modifications at your service
panel (installing a ground bus and seperating the grounds and neutrals,
etc.)

You don't want to do this yourself. I *might* try it myself if I got
permission from the utility company to pull the meter and reinstall it
when I was done.

This is one of those jobs where you really should get a permit.


Bob, do you have an idea how much it could cost (beside the cost of
the switch). I have no clue.

i

Iggy I am in process of putting in a whole house auto transfer switch.
I brought in a licensed electrician Friday to mount the switch under my
main disconnect. Took six hours, my man got $70.00 per hour (Az.a right
to work state YVMV). You might go to the ASCO transfer switch sight and
download all the pdf files on the 165 series switches.
Those files will answer most of your questions. If you want to go manual
switch there are a lot of used ones on Ebay.
Dave

On 10 Jan 2005 18:49:48 GMT, Ignoramus13229
wrote:

I have, logically, two alternatives.

In a situation where I wanted power backup when I was living on the grid in
another home, I installed a whole house manual transfer switch. This did
involve work at the service entrance and the cost of having it done,
including the switch and running cable to the generator location, was about
$1500. All code compliant.

Knowing a bit more, if your generator is capable of autostart, I would
suggest an automatic whole house transfer switch. These units can
automatically start the generator when grid power goes out; and also
exercise the generator at preset intervals.


-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

On 11 Jan 2005 01:58:58 GMT, Ignoramus5713
wrote:

Here it is, my little pride.

Oh, yes. I recall looking at it now when you first posted about some
problems with it. Glad you got it working. The newer Onan home units can
be autostarted, but I sure don't know about the one you have.


-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

On 11 Jan 2005 04:07:58 GMT, Ignoramus5713
wrote:

It works beautifully, starts every time. Load tests very good also. I
am very happy, thanks not the least to members of these newsgroups. I
know that I can buy a starting relay for it from FW Murphy (with
preheat and all), but, to me, it is all not worth it. I would have to
spend $1,500 on an autostarting transfer switch, plus extra for relay,
etc. All for what? For not taking my ass out of the house in the rare
event of loss of power? Nah. I can walk out for 3 minutes, preheat the
engine and start it.

One advantage of an automatic transfer switch is that you don't have to be
home to start the generator when the power goes out. Since we take winter
vacations, and live where it's cold, that would be an issue for us.

But they are expensive, and not for all situations.

One advantage of a whole house transfer switch (manual DPDT like I had
installed at my previous home) is that you don't have to decide in advance
which circuits are critical during the blackout. For example, in our last
home, we could have run one burner on the electric stove, whereas with the
smaller, then available sub units, we would not have had that option.

You just need to take care to not overload your generator.

Again, even the whole house manual transfer switch may be more expensive
than what you want to pay, but it would be something to check on, as I
believe prices have come down.


-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Ignoramus5713 wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:16:24 -0700, Dave Morrison wrote:

Iggy I am in process of putting in a whole house auto transfer switch.
I brought in a licensed electrician Friday to mount the switch under my
main disconnect. Took six hours, my man got $70.00 per hour (Az.a right
to work state YVMV). You might go to the ASCO transfer switch sight and
download all the pdf files on the 165 series switches.
Those files will answer most of your questions. If you want to go manual
switch there are a lot of used ones on Ebay.


Thanks. An ATS does not fit my needs (see my response to Ron
Rosenfeld), and also would be too expensive. My genset is not
autostartable, unless I add a starting relay. See its picture at

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/onan/Diesel/

I want to store batteries in the garage, have fuel valves shut when
not in use, etc. I do not mind spending 5 minutes outside if power
goes out.

i

Check those Asco files anyway, the 165 series is available in auto or
manual start. They have a series of installations illustrated. Price
wise you can due better on a used manual transfer switch on Ebay.
Dave

On 11 Jan 2005 11:51:59 GMT, Ignoramus22481
wrote:

Check out that Harbor Freight transfer switch, made by Cutler Hammer.

It sure looks like a good price. Add to that the wire from the switch to
your generator, and electrician charges, and I'd guess you're looking at
under $1000 for everything installed.

That's less than I had to pay 7 or 8 years ago and, if I were wanting a
manual solution, I'd go for that before a limited panel solution.


-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)