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Cold Climate heat pump
Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is
a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Reading the blurb, it looks like it's just a two stage compressor system. So I'd guess in their example, that what they're selling as a 3-ton unit is something more like a 6-ton two stage which runs at 3+-tons until some critical temperature (around 30F?) then kicks in the second stage for extra output. Nothing revolutionary. But it does seem to get around the standard complaint of normal heat pumps not being able to keep up with load requirements at low temps. The reason this caught my eye is that I'm looking at replacing a heat pump in one of my rental properties and I'd like to put in something "eco friendly". Geothermal is not an option, and I was planning on putting in a high efficiency Carrier or Lennox HP or maybe a York Stealth. This Nyle unit showed up as an added option but I'm a little loathe to get a unit that nobody's ever heard of. Any thoughts? |
"Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Maybe it's just me, but methinks it's a crock. I don't care if you have a system with 6 compressors. You still only extract 'X' amount of heat from 0 degree air. Plus I don't see how they can claim that it is "270% effiecient at 17 degrees"....... |
Astro wrote:
Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Reading the blurb, it looks like it's just a two stage compressor system. So I'd guess in their example, that what they're selling as a 3-ton unit is something more like a 6-ton two stage which runs at 3+-tons until some critical temperature (around 30F?) then kicks in the second stage for extra output. Nothing revolutionary. But it does seem to get around the standard complaint of normal heat pumps not being able to keep up with load requirements at low temps. The real design problem is not being able to keep up, but rather the expense. The lower the design temperature the more expensive the unit and not matter what unit you have, the greater the difference in temperature the less efficient it will run. The standard units available with electric resistance heating supplement are going to be the best and cheapest (which means eco friendly) over all cost almost all the time. The reason this caught my eye is that I'm looking at replacing a heat pump in one of my rental properties and I'd like to put in something "eco friendly". Geothermal is not an option, and I was planning on putting in a high efficiency Carrier or Lennox HP or maybe a York Stealth. This Nyle unit showed up as an added option but I'm a little loathe to get a unit that nobody's ever heard of. Any thoughts? -- Joseph E. Meehan 26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math |
"Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Reading the blurb, it looks like it's just a two stage compressor system. So I'd guess in their example, that what they're selling as a 3-ton unit is something more like a 6-ton two stage which runs at 3+-tons until some critical temperature (around 30F?) then kicks in the second stage for extra output. Nothing revolutionary. But it does seem to get around the standard complaint of normal heat pumps not being able to keep up with load requirements at low temps. The reason this caught my eye is that I'm looking at replacing a heat pump in one of my rental properties and I'd like to put in something "eco friendly". Geothermal is not an option, and I was planning on putting in a high efficiency Carrier or Lennox HP or maybe a York Stealth. This Nyle unit showed up as an added option but I'm a little loathe to get a unit that nobody's ever heard of. Any thoughts? Its BS...and its not a 6 ton with a dual stage comp....its a dual stage comp alright, but the capacity is not even close to 4 tons. You can only get a COP of so much...once that is passed, you WILL have a form of secondary heat needed....period. If you are looking at the Stealth, (soon to be discontinued) You might want to spend the extra $200 and get an Affinity by York. Lennox parts are impossible to get and Carrier designs are not static. |
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:01:15 -0500, "Steve@carolinabreezehvac"
wrote: "Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Reading the blurb, it looks like it's just a two stage compressor system. So I'd guess in their example, that what they're selling as a 3-ton unit is something more like a 6-ton two stage which runs at 3+-tons until some critical temperature (around 30F?) then kicks in the second stage for extra output. Nothing revolutionary. But it does seem to get around the standard complaint of normal heat pumps not being able to keep up with load requirements at low temps. The reason this caught my eye is that I'm looking at replacing a heat pump in one of my rental properties and I'd like to put in something "eco friendly". Geothermal is not an option, and I was planning on putting in a high efficiency Carrier or Lennox HP or maybe a York Stealth. This Nyle unit showed up as an added option but I'm a little loathe to get a unit that nobody's ever heard of. Any thoughts? Its BS...and its not a 6 ton with a dual stage comp....its a dual stage comp alright, but the capacity is not even close to 4 tons. You can only get a COP of so much...once that is passed, you WILL have a form of secondary heat needed....period. If you are looking at the Stealth, (soon to be discontinued) You might want to spend the extra $200 and get an Affinity by York. Lennox parts are impossible to get and Carrier designs are not static. Seems I recall some years back reading about a heat pump with a small gas burner in the outdoor unit which added just enough heat to prevent the coil from freezing in subzero temps. I wonder whatever happened to those? _______________________________ Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike conservatives who are dictators and thieves. |
"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:01:15 -0500, "Steve@carolinabreezehvac" wrote: "Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Reading the blurb, it looks like it's just a two stage compressor system. So I'd guess in their example, that what they're selling as a 3-ton unit is something more like a 6-ton two stage which runs at 3+-tons until some critical temperature (around 30F?) then kicks in the second stage for extra output. Nothing revolutionary. But it does seem to get around the standard complaint of normal heat pumps not being able to keep up with load requirements at low temps. The reason this caught my eye is that I'm looking at replacing a heat pump in one of my rental properties and I'd like to put in something "eco friendly". Geothermal is not an option, and I was planning on putting in a high efficiency Carrier or Lennox HP or maybe a York Stealth. This Nyle unit showed up as an added option but I'm a little loathe to get a unit that nobody's ever heard of. Any thoughts? Its BS...and its not a 6 ton with a dual stage comp....its a dual stage comp alright, but the capacity is not even close to 4 tons. You can only get a COP of so much...once that is passed, you WILL have a form of secondary heat needed....period. If you are looking at the Stealth, (soon to be discontinued) You might want to spend the extra $200 and get an Affinity by York. Lennox parts are impossible to get and Carrier designs are not static. Seems I recall some years back reading about a heat pump with a small gas burner in the outdoor unit which added just enough heat to prevent the coil from freezing in subzero temps. I wonder whatever happened to those? _______________________________ Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike conservatives who are dictators and thieves. York used to have a nat gas powered heat pump...it had a Briggs and Stratton engine that powered the compressor and the heat generated by the engine was removed by the refrigerant and sent back into the system.. Called the Triathlon...it was a failure due to several reasons...lack of trained installers...lack of service by owners....it just didnt fly. It would have been great had it been marketed right.... You can get ammonia units still, Arkel, that use a gas burner for AC and heating....but unless you want a huge fuel bill, its best to simply go with a gas furnace. |
"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:01:15 -0500, "Steve@carolinabreezehvac" Seems I recall some years back reading about a heat pump with a small gas burner in the outdoor unit which added just enough heat to prevent the coil from freezing in subzero temps. I wonder whatever happened to those? _______________________________ Sanyo still makes a HP with a gas burner in it. Greg |
"Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm I know of a couple in this area, the electric utility was pushing them at one time. I do not know how dependable they are. We also have a cusomer that has been trying to get one. It has been ordered for many months, but it seems like it is lost in limbo some where. I have a sneaking suspicion Nyles is having trouble with them and not shipping till it gets figured out! Myself, I would shy away for now, give them a couple more years and they may getit figured out! Greg |
"Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... The reason this caught my eye is that I'm looking at replacing a heat pump in one of my rental properties and I'd like to put in something "eco friendly". Geothermal is not an option, and I was planning on putting in a high efficiency Carrier or Lennox HP or maybe a York Stealth. This Nyle unit showed up as an added option but I'm a little loathe to get a unit that nobody's ever heard of. Any thoughts? What kind of slum lord are you?? Most rental property owners want the cheapest piece of crap they can find, screw the operating costs, let the renters pay the fuel bill! Greg |
:-)
I'm one of the good guys, I like to think. my first thought was "get a cheap, 10-seer heat pump", but I realized that would make me a complete hypocrite. I've been preaching to my friends and family about reduced energy load, cutting out fossile fuel use and using various solar and geothermal designs. So for me to put in a cheapo system in my rentals would not cut it. What's a couple months of rent in the big picture? thanks to all for your feedback. I think I'll go with one of the high efficiency units suggested in a previous post. Best, On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:00:07 -0600, Greg O wrote: "Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... The reason this caught my eye is that I'm looking at replacing a heat pump in one of my rental properties and I'd like to put in something "eco friendly". Geothermal is not an option, and I was planning on putting in a high efficiency Carrier or Lennox HP or maybe a York Stealth. This Nyle unit showed up as an added option but I'm a little loathe to get a unit that nobody's ever heard of. Any thoughts? What kind of slum lord are you?? Most rental property owners want the cheapest piece of crap they can find, screw the operating costs, let the renters pay the fuel bill! Greg |
Seems like if you had natural gas available, you'd get a furnace?
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com "Gary R. Lloyd" wrote in message Seems I recall some years back reading about a heat pump with a small gas burner in the outdoor unit which added just enough heat to prevent the coil from freezing in subzero temps. I wonder whatever happened to those? _______________________________ Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike conservatives who are dictators and thieves. |
"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote in message ... On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:01:15 -0500, "Steve@carolinabreezehvac" wrote: "Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Reading the blurb, it looks like it's just a two stage compressor system. So I'd guess in their example, that what they're selling as a 3-ton unit is something more like a 6-ton two stage which runs at 3+-tons until some critical temperature (around 30F?) then kicks in the second stage for extra output. Nothing revolutionary. But it does seem to get around the standard complaint of normal heat pumps not being able to keep up with load requirements at low temps. The reason this caught my eye is that I'm looking at replacing a heat pump in one of my rental properties and I'd like to put in something "eco friendly". Geothermal is not an option, and I was planning on putting in a high efficiency Carrier or Lennox HP or maybe a York Stealth. This Nyle unit showed up as an added option but I'm a little loathe to get a unit that nobody's ever heard of. Any thoughts? Its BS...and its not a 6 ton with a dual stage comp....its a dual stage comp alright, but the capacity is not even close to 4 tons. You can only get a COP of so much...once that is passed, you WILL have a form of secondary heat needed....period. If you are looking at the Stealth, (soon to be discontinued) You might want to spend the extra $200 and get an Affinity by York. Lennox parts are impossible to get and Carrier designs are not static. Seems I recall some years back reading about a heat pump with a small gas burner in the outdoor unit which added just enough heat to prevent the coil from freezing in subzero temps. I wonder whatever happened to those? _______________________________ Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike conservatives who are dictators and thieves. This is Turtle. They brought the gas burner inside and called it a gas furnace. TURTLE |
Red Neckerson posted for all of us....
"Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Maybe it's just me, but methinks it's a crock. I don't care if you have a system with 6 compressors. You still only extract 'X' amount of heat from 0 degree air. Plus I don't see how they can claim that it is "270% effiecient at 17 degrees"....... How does one get more than 100% efficiency out of anything? BZZZZZZZ next perpetual motion claim. -- Tekkie |
Tekkie wrote in
: How does one get more than 100% efficiency out of anything? Heat pumps are measured several ways, but for heating, an interesting number if the COP, or Coefficient of Performance. Heat pumps can provide 2 to 4 BTUs of heat for every BTU of electrical energy used: http://tva.apogee.net/res/rehpeff.asp BZZZZZZZ next perpetual motion claim. It's not a perpetual motion claim, nor does it break any laws of thermodynamics. A heat pump isn't creating heat from the electrical energy, it is merely pumping it from one place to another. |
"Tekkie" wrote in message ... Red Neckerson posted for all of us.... "Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Maybe it's just me, but methinks it's a crock. I don't care if you have a system with 6 compressors. You still only extract 'X' amount of heat from 0 degree air. Plus I don't see how they can claim that it is "270% effiecient at 17 degrees"....... How does one get more than 100% efficiency out of anything? Heat pumps, ANY heat pumps made in the last few years, can be more than 100% ....how much heat can you get for the same buck? Higher the outdoor temps, the higher the percentage. How well the outdoor coil can gather heat, and how well the indoor coil can release it...the higher the percentage. \ BZZZZZZZ next perpetual motion claim. -- Tekkie |
Steve@carolinabreezehvac posted for all of us....
"Tekkie" wrote in message ... Red Neckerson posted for all of us.... "Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Maybe it's just me, but methinks it's a crock. I don't care if you have a system with 6 compressors. You still only extract 'X' amount of heat from 0 degree air. Plus I don't see how they can claim that it is "270% effiecient at 17 degrees"....... How does one get more than 100% efficiency out of anything? Heat pumps, ANY heat pumps made in the last few years, can be more than 100% ...how much heat can you get for the same buck? Higher the outdoor temps, the higher the percentage. How well the outdoor coil can gather heat, and how well the indoor coil can release it...the higher the percentage. Ok, I'll accept what you say, but I don't understand it. -- Tekkie |
"Tekkie" wrote in message t... Steve@carolinabreezehvac posted for all of us.... "Tekkie" wrote in message ... Red Neckerson posted for all of us.... "Astro" wrote in message news:opshte04v1v1dc2q@athlon2600... Anybody had any experience with the Nyle "cold climate heat pump"? This is a standard, air-source heat pump that claims effective heating down to 0F. http://www.nyletherm.com/spaceheating.htm Maybe it's just me, but methinks it's a crock. I don't care if you have a system with 6 compressors. You still only extract 'X' amount of heat from 0 degree air. Plus I don't see how they can claim that it is "270% effiecient at 17 degrees"....... How does one get more than 100% efficiency out of anything? Heat pumps, ANY heat pumps made in the last few years, can be more than 100% ...how much heat can you get for the same buck? Higher the outdoor temps, the higher the percentage. How well the outdoor coil can gather heat, and how well the indoor coil can release it...the higher the percentage. Ok, I'll accept what you say, but I don't understand it. Ok...then you are familiar with why heat pumps require a 2nd stage of heat form right? You are also familiar with the use of an outdoor stat to keep the strips, or whatever 2nd stage is from coming on if the temps outside are high enough...I know you have seen us talk about it in the other group. You might also recall some conversations about an outdoor stat that will keep the heat pump OFF if the temps drop low enough, and only run the strips... the lower the temps, the lower the output of the unit....higher the temps, the higher the output of the unit.. Look up, Coefficient of performance HSPF ratings. -- Tekkie |
Steve@carolinabreezehvac posted for all of us....
Ok, I'll accept what you say, but I don't understand it. Ok...then you are familiar with why heat pumps require a 2nd stage of heat form right? You are also familiar with the use of an outdoor stat to keep the strips, or whatever 2nd stage is from coming on if the temps outside are high enough...I know you have seen us talk about it in the other group. You might also recall some conversations about an outdoor stat that will keep the heat pump OFF if the temps drop low enough, and only run the strips... the lower the temps, the lower the output of the unit....higher the temps, the higher the output of the unit.. Look up, Coefficient of performance HSPF ratings. Thanks, Steve, Ok, I understand what the function is of the outside stats. I will look up your references, just having major brain block. I can't get it through my thick skull how running a heat pump at say 50 deg & extracting the heat out of it can be more than 100% efficient. Let me do a little more research and thinking so I get back on track. Am I confusing efficiency with COP? -- Tekkie |
"Tekkie" wrote in message t... Steve@carolinabreezehvac posted for all of us.... Thanks, Steve, Ok, I understand what the function is of the outside stats. I will look up your references, just having major brain block. I can't get it through my thick skull how running a heat pump at say 50 deg & extracting the heat out of it can be more than 100% efficient. Let me do a little more research and thinking so I get back on track. Am I confusing efficiency with COP? -- Tekkie How can you cool the home with 90 degree outside air? Same thing, only backwards. It is confusing! But as long as the money spent to get heat through a heat pump is less per BTU than any other energy source what differance does it make? A heat pump will produce heat into very low temps, most will still see some heat even as low as 50F. The problem arises when the cost to get this heat costs more than electric resistance heat, of fossil fuel. Also it is much harder, more costly, to recover this heat as the outdoor air temps fall. Greg |
"Greg O" wrote in message ... "Tekkie" wrote in message t... Steve@carolinabreezehvac posted for all of us.... Thanks, Steve, Ok, I understand what the function is of the outside stats. I will look up your references, just having major brain block. I can't get it through my thick skull how running a heat pump at say 50 deg & extracting the heat out of it can be more than 100% efficient. Let me do a little more research and thinking so I get back on track. Am I confusing efficiency with COP? -- Tekkie How can you cool the home with 90 degree outside air? Same thing, only backwards. It is confusing! But as long as the money spent to get heat through a heat pump is less per BTU than any other energy source what differance does it make? A heat pump will produce heat into very low temps, most will still see some heat even as low as 50F. The problem arises when the cost to get this heat costs more than electric resistance heat, of fossil fuel. Also it is much harder, more costly, to recover this heat as the outdoor air temps fall. Greg Its in the 40s here right now, and the electric strips havent been on yet...and wont for a while...:) |
"Steve@carolinabreezehvac" wrote in message ... "Greg O" wrote in message ... "Tekkie" wrote in message t... Steve@carolinabreezehvac posted for all of us.... Thanks, Steve, Ok, I understand what the function is of the outside stats. I will look up your references, just having major brain block. I can't get it through my thick skull how running a heat pump at say 50 deg & extracting the heat out of it can be more than 100% efficient. Let me do a little more research and thinking so I get back on track. Am I confusing efficiency with COP? -- Tekkie How can you cool the home with 90 degree outside air? Same thing, only backwards. It is confusing! But as long as the money spent to get heat through a heat pump is less per BTU than any other energy source what differance does it make? A heat pump will produce heat into very low temps, most will still see some heat even as low as 50F. The problem arises when the cost to get this heat costs more than electric resistance heat, of fossil fuel. Also it is much harder, more costly, to recover this heat as the outdoor air temps fall. Greg Its in the 40s here right now, and the electric strips havent been on yet...and wont for a while...:) I meant to type 0F, 50F slipped in there from Tekkie's post somehow! ;-) Greg |
Tekkie writes:
Ok, I understand what the function is of the outside stats. I will look up your references, just having major brain block. I can't get it through my thick skull how running a heat pump at say 50 deg & extracting the heat out of it can be more than 100% efficient. Let me do a little more research and thinking so I get back on track. Am I confusing efficiency with COP? -- Tekkie You call yourself an HVAC expert but don't even have the foggiest clue how a heat pump works even after it has been explained to you???? Kind of like an electrician thinking that a circuit breaker resetting is magic or a plumber scratching his head at how water moves uphill in a siphon. I remember learning how a heat pump works back in Freshman physics... no rocket science, just an air conditioner in reverse! Maybe instead of filling the newsgroup with so much useless drivel and venom, you should just slink away and learn something before talking and posting. You are not only a 1st degree troll, but a quack as well . God help the poor soul who pays you to do their HVAC work. Maybe in Louisiana you just need a pulse to get an HVAC license... (and even then you probably had to cheat on the exam) |
Tekkies never claimed to be a tech...matter of fact far from it.
Hes been adopted by the hvac group, and hes learning. "TEKKIE=TROLL" wrote in message ... Tekkie writes: Ok, I understand what the function is of the outside stats. I will look up your references, just having major brain block. I can't get it through my thick skull how running a heat pump at say 50 deg & extracting the heat out of it can be more than 100% efficient. Let me do a little more research and thinking so I get back on track. Am I confusing efficiency with COP? -- Tekkie You call yourself an HVAC expert but don't even have the foggiest clue how a heat pump works even after it has been explained to you???? Kind of like an electrician thinking that a circuit breaker resetting is magic or a plumber scratching his head at how water moves uphill in a siphon. I remember learning how a heat pump works back in Freshman physics... no rocket science, just an air conditioner in reverse! Maybe instead of filling the newsgroup with so much useless drivel and venom, you should just slink away and learn something before talking and posting. You are not only a 1st degree troll, but a quack as well . God help the poor soul who pays you to do their HVAC work. Maybe in Louisiana you just need a pulse to get an HVAC license... (and even then you probably had to cheat on the exam) |
jeffy cowski posted for all of us....
Tekkie writes: Ok, I understand what the function is of the outside stats. I will look up your references, just having major brain block. I can't get it through my thick skull how running a heat pump at say 50 deg & extracting the heat out of it can be more than 100% efficient. Let me do a little more research and thinking so I get back on track. Am I confusing efficiency with COP? -- Tekkie You call yourself an HVAC expert but don't even have the foggiest clue how a heat pump works even after it has been explained to you???? Never called myself an HVAC expert. Maybe that is a large part of problem there jessy your reading comprehension is about third grade while logic and cognetive ability are K-. Yes jerky, I understand how a heat pump works. Do you understand how a search engine works-no evidence of that. Kind of like an electrician thinking that a circuit breaker resetting is magic or a plumber scratching his head at how water moves uphill in a siphon. Water is being siphoned because your lips are wrapped a tube... I remember learning how a heat pump works back in Freshman physics... no rocket science, just an air conditioner in reverse! Wow a freakin genius. Guess you answered all your OWN HVAC questions you posted. I get the impression you take the window shakers out in the winter and turn them around, put them back in on a couple stolen milk crates; jiffys idea of a heat pump. Maybe instead of filling the newsgroup with so much useless drivel and venom, you should just slink away and learn something before talking and posting. He he he look in ther mirror there jizzy: you fill this newsgroup with drivel, you learn nothing, you research nothing, you are nothing. You are not only a 1st degree troll, but a quack as well . God help the poor soul who pays you to do their HVAC work. Maybe in Louisiana you just need a pulse to get an HVAC license... (and even then you probably had to cheat on the exam) I say again for the fifth time** I don't work in HVAC. If you knew ANYTHING about me you would know I don't live in Louisiana. Shows how little you know there jazzy. Now juzzy did you read my post to you concerning your need for mental health assistance? Was the diagnosis bipolar? Not that we care... Tekkie |
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(o o) ,----ooO--(_)-------. | Please | | don't feed the | | TROLL's ! | '--------------Ooo--' |__|__| || || ooO Ooo |
blueman posted for all of us....
\|||/ (o o) ,----ooO--(_)-------. | Please | | don't feed the | | TROLL's ! | '--------------Ooo--' |__|__| || || ooO Ooo Hey, good one! -- Tekkie |
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