It also means those smokers are costing me more in health insurance to

This is a false assertion.

Didn't this start out as a request for information on air cleaners?

Can we all say "polarization"?

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:42:30 -0700, Bob Landry
wrote:

Didn't this start out as a request for information on air cleaners?

Can we all say "polarization"?

Yep. That's what our country has come to. There has to be a law for
everything. One side gets to dictate to the other side. If the other
side doesn't like it, tough ****. Forget about talking things over and
working things out. Or agreeing to disagree and going our separate
ways. Those days are gone. We have become a house divided.

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software
http://www.techmethod.com

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 05:37:03 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Gary you are one inbread uneducated low IQ moron if you believe the
Dutch study


Being the study was conducted by socialists, you may have a point.


_______________________________

Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike
conservatives who are dictators and thieves.

On 19 Nov 2004 11:33:51 -0800, (rotation slim)
wrote:

Let me get this straight, your smoke eventually finding the way into
my nostrils is your right?

Can I stop by your desk and Fart?

Can I bring in a super soaker and squirt you. Shouldnt it be my right
to point that thing and pull the trigger? Why would water, a harmless
substance for the most part be any less protected then cigarette
smoke? In your twisted world it should not be.

I should also be able to play my rap music as loud as I want, if you
hear it at your desk, that is tough luck, it isn't harming you, it is
a minor annoyance, no less annoying than the smell of smoke.

Also since you are zeroing in on rights... isn't the right to have air
that is not polluted by someone else pricipal above any other rights?
I can think of nothing that gives you the right to pollute my air
with foul smell.

So should a factory have the right to put out any noxious gasses that
it wishes, it aint a whole lot different than what you are doing.

All that is accepting your fairy-tale theory that second hand smoke
doesn't actually harm folk, which it does.

Look brother, I am there for you in the personal rights area, but the
fact of the matter, no matter what amount of sophistry you can conjure
up, is that nothing in any rational mind gives someone the right to
pollute my air before I breath it. Not smokers, not factories
belching out pollution, not the guy on the desk next to me farting..
it should be just common sense.

As for taxes, I don't disagree, If I am supporting the cig tax I need
to as well support a tax on my twinkies, which make me fat. I am
with you there brother.

Back when the non-smokers rights movement started, what I fully
expected to see was a restaurant with a no smoking sign, next to a
restaurant with a smokers welcome sign, next to a restaurant with
smoking and non-smoking areas available. That's how a free market
solves these sort of problems. Everybody gets what they want, and they
vote with their dollars. No laws needed.

That's not how dictators solve problems. Dictators divide everyone
into us and them on every issue, and pass laws forcing one side's
values upon the other side. The other side is supposed to just smile
and take it. And then comes the taxes.

Roughly 1/4 of the population uses tobacco. ****ing off one out of
four people can't be good for the country.

_______________________________

Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike
conservatives who are dictators and thieves.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:26:31 -0600, Bill Seurer
wrote:

Gary R. Lloyd wrote:

Does anyone see a trend throughout this thread? The vast majority of
non-smokers don't give a damn about anyone's rights but their own, and
they blindly defend outrageous taxes that are clearly nothing short of
theft. Not unlike the politicians they elect, they are thieves and
dictators.

Since when is smoking a RIGHT?
--

You have an inherent right to put whatever you want in your body. Why?
Because you own yourself. It's your body.

My brother and I worked out the smoking thing quite easily:

Smokers are welcome in my house. If you don't like it, do not enter.
It's my house.

My brother doesn't allow smoking in his house. If you don't like it,
do not enter. It's his house.

_______________________________

Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike
conservatives who are dictators and thieves.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:19:59 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

Gary R. Lloyd wrote:
Does anyone see a trend throughout this thread? The vast majority of
non-smokers don't give a damn about anyone's rights but their own, and



And how exactly are you any different?


I care about your inherent unalienable rights, even though I consider
you to be a waste of skin.

_______________________________

Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike
conservatives who are dictators and thieves.

"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:26:31 -0600, Bill Seurer
wrote:

Gary R. Lloyd wrote:

Does anyone see a trend throughout this thread? The vast majority of
non-smokers don't give a damn about anyone's rights but their own, and
they blindly defend outrageous taxes that are clearly nothing short of
theft. Not unlike the politicians they elect, they are thieves and
dictators.

Since when is smoking a RIGHT?
--

You have an inherent right to put whatever you want in your body. Why?
Because you own yourself. It's your body.

My brother and I worked out the smoking thing quite easily:

Smokers are welcome in my house. If you don't like it, do not enter.
It's my house.

My brother doesn't allow smoking in his house. If you don't like it,
do not enter. It's his house.

_______________________________

Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike
conservatives who are dictators and thieves.

You also then have the inherent right to PAY for ALL the costs of
treating any diseases you get from smoking.

LB

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:10:18 GMT, wrote:

"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:26:31 -0600, Bill Seurer
wrote:

Gary R. Lloyd wrote:

Does anyone see a trend throughout this thread? The vast majority of
non-smokers don't give a damn about anyone's rights but their own, and
they blindly defend outrageous taxes that are clearly nothing short of
theft. Not unlike the politicians they elect, they are thieves and
dictators.

Since when is smoking a RIGHT?
--

You have an inherent right to put whatever you want in your body. Why?
Because you own yourself. It's your body.

My brother and I worked out the smoking thing quite easily:

Smokers are welcome in my house. If you don't like it, do not enter.
It's my house.

My brother doesn't allow smoking in his house. If you don't like it,
do not enter. It's his house.

_______________________________

Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike
conservatives who are dictators and thieves.

You also then have the inherent right to PAY for ALL the costs of
treating any diseases you get from smoking.

.... or from eating, or from drinking, or just from living.

No problem, just reimburse me for all the money I have paid into your
welfare system, and I will refrain from claiming any of its benefits.
In the meantime, I paid for it and it better damned well be there when
I need it.

________________________________

The least charitable people on Earth are the Robin Hood types.
They institute wonderful sounding social programs and force
others to pay for them (minus a sizeable cut for themselves).
They are not humanitarians, they are thieves.

wrote in message ...
"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:26:31 -0600, Bill Seurer
wrote:

Gary R. Lloyd wrote:

Does anyone see a trend throughout this thread? The vast majority of
non-smokers don't give a damn about anyone's rights but their own,
and
they blindly defend outrageous taxes that are clearly nothing short
of
theft. Not unlike the politicians they elect, they are thieves and
dictators.

Since when is smoking a RIGHT?
--

You have an inherent right to put whatever you want in your body. Why?
Because you own yourself. It's your body.

My brother and I worked out the smoking thing quite easily:

Smokers are welcome in my house. If you don't like it, do not enter.
It's my house.

My brother doesn't allow smoking in his house. If you don't like it,
do not enter. It's his house.

_______________________________

Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike
conservatives who are dictators and thieves.

You also then have the inherent right to PAY for ALL the costs of
treating any diseases you get from smoking.

How about you go ahead and send a check to the family of a good friend of
mine that just died from lung cancer....never smoked a day in his life, no
one in his family smokes, and he was well enough off that he lived well, and
took good care of himself..
I figure it cost him close to a million the last couple of years to prolong
his life....

I mean....after all...(cough) smokers killed him according to you...



LB

Steve@carolinabreezehvac wrote:
How about you go ahead and send a check to the family of a good friend of
mine that just died from lung cancer....never smoked a day in his life, no
one in his family smokes, and he was well enough off that he lived well, and
took good care of himself..
I figure it cost him close to a million the last couple of years to prolong
his life....


Yeah, everybody knows a story. Cancer generally requires two things to exist
for it to occur: a genetic predisposition (cancer does run in families) and an
environmental trigger. That trigger could be cigarette smoke, though it could
be other things as well. This is how some folks smoke and don't get cancer and
others don't smoke and do get cancer. Both factors need to exist.

That being said, cigarettes cause more cardiac deaths than lung cancer. If a
person has a 70% blockage of his coronary arteries, he may well be free of
symptoms. Then he fires one up: the nicotine causes vasoconstriction. He may
then have a heart attack. (My percentages are off the top of my head but I
attended enough seminars to know the general idea is correct).

So your friend spent close to a million dollars, did he? After our good friend
Gary claimed smokers cost less because they don't live as long, he now wants
access to that same kind of money to extend his smoke ridden life. This is
cheaper?

As I see it, he has the right to do what he wants right up to the point it
affects me. He's free to smoke; I just don't want anyone to smoke around me.
Nobody smokes in my house. If you come to visit, you'll leave your cigarettes
in the car.

I have a friend who smokes. He abides by my rules in my house. I don't visit
him because that's *his* house, and I don't make the rules there. Nor do I have
to suffer from his smoke (my sinuses close almost immediately).

You want to smoke? Do it elsewhere. Smoke free sections in a restaurant work
as well as pee free sections of a swimming pool. Have you ever noticed how
smokers smoke in a restaurant? They smoke up until their food arrives, put the
cigarettes out, and then fire up again after they've eaten. Never mind that 3/4
of the restaurant hasn't finished *their* food.

Do it elsewhere....




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
om...
Steve@carolinabreezehvac wrote:
How about you go ahead and send a check to the family of a good friend
of
mine that just died from lung cancer....never smoked a day in his life,
no
one in his family smokes, and he was well enough off that he lived well,
and
took good care of himself..
I figure it cost him close to a million the last couple of years to
prolong
his life....


Yeah, everybody knows a story. Cancer generally requires two things to
exist
for it to occur: a genetic predisposition (cancer does run in families)
and an
environmental trigger. That trigger could be cigarette smoke, though it
could
be other things as well. This is how some folks smoke and don't get
cancer and
others don't smoke and do get cancer. Both factors need to exist.

That being said, cigarettes cause more cardiac deaths than lung cancer.
If a
person has a 70% blockage of his coronary arteries, he may well be free of
symptoms. Then he fires one up: the nicotine causes vasoconstriction.
He may
then have a heart attack. (My percentages are off the top of my head but
I
attended enough seminars to know the general idea is correct).

So your friend spent close to a million dollars, did he? After our good
friend
Gary claimed smokers cost less because they don't live as long, he now
wants
access to that same kind of money to extend his smoke ridden life. This
is
cheaper?

He had the money...so what? It was to make a point you failed to see.


As I see it, he has the right to do what he wants right up to the point it
affects me. He's free to smoke; I just don't want anyone to smoke around
me.
Nobody smokes in my house. If you come to visit, you'll leave your
cigarettes
in the car.

Nah...see...if THAT was the case, you need to get everyone to stop driving,
shut down EVERY oil and coal furnace in the country, and for sure need to
make sure that no one EVER fires up a BBQ in the summer.
You home has more carcenigens in it than a truckload of smokes....but you
knew that as a RN right?
Hope its not brick....or you own a TV, or anything like a computer
monitor...no fiberglass insulation in it either..all that contributes to
cancers...but you knew that right?




I have a friend who smokes. He abides by my rules in my house. I don't
visit
him because that's *his* house, and I don't make the rules there. Nor do
I have
to suffer from his smoke (my sinuses close almost immediately).


So I assume you have the same problem with you enter your home...since its a
proven fact that most homes indoor air is up to 10X more dirty than the air
outside...or are you allergic to tobacco?


You want to smoke? Do it elsewhere. Smoke free sections in a restaurant
work
as well as pee free sections of a swimming pool. Have you ever noticed
how
smokers smoke in a restaurant? They smoke up until their food arrives,
put the
cigarettes out, and then fire up again after they've eaten. Never mind
that 3/4
of the restaurant hasn't finished *their* food.

Funny....as a smoker, thats not how I smoke, but I will consider it from now
on.
I also tend to try to accept other peoples point of view, but I figure if
you are going to enter a place that you know that they allow smoking, and
then complain about it, then thats YOUR problem, not mine.
Also, as someone that designs, and repairs HVAC systems in these places that
you talk about, you DO know that no matter where you go in such an
establishment, you are subjected to the same smoke that you probably claim
you cant tell is there.
We have designed several systems just for folks like you and it adds
normally 5 to 10 THOUSAND dollars to the typical commercial
installation....dont blame the smoker for the air inthe place not being to
your liking, blame it on the owner that didnt really care to cater to you.

But yet, in your home, where the air will be up to 10X more dirty than in
that same establishment, you dont have anything but a fiberglass filter, no
heat recovery units, UV lamps like are used in almost EVERY hospitals HVAC
system, or anything resembling a decent air filtration system...and if you
DO consider it, you gripe over the cost...yet if you walk into my home, you
wont even know a smoker lives there....but then I knew that I was gonna put
in the ERVs HRVs and UVCs when I bought the home....I am more worried about
the fiberglass, asbestos and chemicals I work with than the 10 or so
Marlboros I smoke daily.


If you enter a restaurant that allows smoking, then you get to allow the
smokers to smoke as they wish...and if you complain in one that I am in, and
complain about MY smoke, that is your right, but its also my right to tell
you to leave, deal with it, or stop interupting my meal.
I also have the right to reach over and bitchslap you, knowing that you have
the right to press charges, but remember, its my right to defend my rights
as well...

Rights my ass...where is it written that you have the right to tell me how
to control what I do, in a place that allows it? Hint : You dont.

I will tell you this, as someone that works on such equipment, including the
refrigeration end of restaurants, the air quality is the least of my
worries...bet you havent seen the inside of most coolers, or
freezers.....yet you eat that food....
There is only one place that I service, that I will eat at. I have yet to
find any restaurant that has a clean cooler area, and what I love is when
you get the call to come fix the cooler, to find that its been down for 3
days, and the ONLY reason you are getting called out to repair it, is that
an inspection is due...

Bigger things to worry about than cig smoke....especially when you figure,
(and being in Carolina as am I you should know this) that the medical
profession profits hugely off this, and if you shut down the industry
tomorrow, in 20 years you wont have a job.
Well...you might...I am sure that the doctors will find something else to
profit from....and they will need RNs that know what they are doing...





Do it elsewhere....







--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Gary-

I'm with you on "smoking saves the govt money over the long haul".

Before everyone jumps all over me.......I don't smoke, don't really like second
hand smoke but I dislike the govt bossing everyone around.

Let small groups decide, millions of individual decisions have got to be
better than the folks in DC or the statehouses.

Vote with you feet & your $'s; go (or don't) to smoking or non-smoking
restuarant or place of work.



On the "smoking saves the govt money over the long haul" thing........

Everyone eventually dies, some large % of ones total lifetime health care
expenditure is expended very near the end of ones life.

So if one is on Medicare & Social Security after he stops working then is it
not economically beneficial to the govt to minimize the time spent on these
programs?

Is this not why the govt is raising the retirement age?

I think the anti-smoking crowd should at least be open to the concept that
perhaps smoking is a net postive cash flow for the govt.

As long s it kils the smoker after he has stopped working & paying taxes

Also as big believer in the power of tech, why not just control the smoke at
the source, air cleaning ash trays as well as HEPA filters.


BTW indoor air quality is pretty bad even without smoking.........blue staters
maybe we need some federal indoor air quality standards?

cheers


Bob

this is for Gary, have you considered growing your own? I looked into it &
smokes can be grown for a small fraction of the current retail cost

"Betsy" -0 wrote in message
...
I work in an environment where there is second-hand smoke. I am
considering
buying a portable air-cleaner to take with me to that job. Does anyone
have
any recommendations?


Quit.

"Steve@carolinabreezehvac"
wrote in message
news:B4Jnd.130 I have a friend who smokes. He abides by my
rules in my house. I don't
visit
him because that's *his* house, and I don't make the rules
there. Nor do
I have
to suffer from his smoke (my sinuses close almost
immediately).


So I assume you have the same problem with you enter your
home...since its a
proven fact that most homes indoor air is up to 10X more dirty
than the air
outside...or are you allergic to tobacco?


You want to smoke? Do it elsewhere. Smoke free sections in
a restaurant
work
as well as pee free sections of a swimming pool. Have you
ever noticed
how
smokers smoke in a restaurant? They smoke up until their
food arrives,
put the
cigarettes out, and then fire up again after they've eaten.
Never mind
that 3/4
of the restaurant hasn't finished *their* food.

Funny....as a smoker, thats not how I smoke, but I will
consider it from now
on.
I also tend to try to accept other peoples point of view, but I
figure if
you are going to enter a place that you know that they allow
smoking, and
then complain about it, then thats YOUR problem, not mine.
Also, as someone that designs, and repairs HVAC systems in
these places that
you talk about, you DO know that no matter where you go in such
an
establishment, you are subjected to the same smoke that you
probably claim
you cant tell is there.
We have designed several systems just for folks like you and it
adds
normally 5 to 10 THOUSAND dollars to the typical commercial
installation....dont blame the smoker for the air inthe place
not being to
your liking, blame it on the owner that didnt really care to
cater to you.

But yet, in your home, where the air will be up to 10X more
dirty than in
that same establishment, you dont have anything but a
fiberglass filter, no
heat recovery units, UV lamps like are used in almost EVERY
hospitals HVAC
system, or anything resembling a decent air filtration
system...and if you
DO consider it, you gripe over the cost...yet if you walk into
my home, you
wont even know a smoker lives there....but then I knew that I
was gonna put
in the ERVs HRVs and UVCs when I bought the home....I am more
worried about
the fiberglass, asbestos and chemicals I work with than the 10
or so
Marlboros I smoke daily.


If you enter a restaurant that allows smoking, then you get to
allow the
smokers to smoke as they wish...and if you complain in one that
I am in, and
complain about MY smoke, that is your right, but its also my
right to tell
you to leave, deal with it, or stop interupting my meal.
I also have the right to reach over and bitchslap you, knowing
that you have
the right to press charges, but remember, its my right to
defend my rights
as well...

Rights my ass...where is it written that you have the right to
tell me how
to control what I do, in a place that allows it? Hint : You
dont.

I will tell you this, as someone that works on such equipment,
including the
refrigeration end of restaurants, the air quality is the least
of my
worries...bet you havent seen the inside of most coolers, or
freezers.....yet you eat that food....
There is only one place that I service, that I will eat at. I
have yet to
find any restaurant that has a clean cooler area, and what I
love is when
you get the call to come fix the cooler, to find that its been
down for 3
days, and the ONLY reason you are getting called out to repair
it, is that
an inspection is due...

You obviously have no idea how BAD cigarette smoke smells. You
probably can't even smell the smoker that just came in from his
fix. It's enough to gag many of us.

Bob

"Steve@carolinabreezehvac"
wrote in message
...

"Betsy" -0 wrote in message
...
I work in an environment where there is second-hand smoke. I
am
considering
buying a portable air-cleaner to take with me to that job.
Does anyone
have
any recommendations?


Quit.

I've done that. If everyone that felt the same had done the same,
companies would have change their smoking rules way earlier.

The last company I quit because of smokers finally went
non-smoking. It happened after one of the worst smokers got
deathly sick. She quit smoking in the hospital, went home and got
well - came back and got sick. After a couple of cycles of this,
the company finally figured out how bad smoke was for people.

OP - personally, I would try to find an "electronic" air cleaner.
The electrostatic principle on which they operate is resonable
effective for removing smoke.

Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
news:rKqod.446531$D%.96239@attbi_s51...

You obviously have no idea how BAD cigarette smoke smells. You
probably can't even smell the smoker that just came in from his
fix. It's enough to gag many of us.

Bob



It smells bad to some....I understand that.
So do the coils that we get to clean in most non smokers
homes....really...the nicotine must kill the hell out of bacteria on
them...

Oh, yes I can! I can smell a cigarette at 100 yards on a calm day outdoors.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Bob" wrote in message
news:rKqod.446531$D%.96239@attbi_s51...

You obviously have no idea how BAD cigarette smoke smells. You
probably can't even smell the smoker that just came in from his
fix. It's enough to gag many of us.

Bob

I'm not taking sides, but we need to get terms straight. There are no
"rights" when it comes to smoking. Smoking, like driving (and sometimes
fishing) is a privilege, not a right. It is something that a person is
allowed to do under a certain set of circumstances. This may be a license or
it may be permission from another party or just a lack of objection. Rights
and privileges are not interchangeable terms.

"99windstar" wrote ...
You do have rights but your right to smoke inside...

Therefore its okay to push me outdoors regardless of weather, and to
force me to pay outrageous taxes?

Um...well, yes it is.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:28:17 -0400, "JoKing"
wrote:

I'm not taking sides, but we need to get terms straight. There are no
"rights" when it comes to smoking. Smoking, like driving (and sometimes
fishing) is a privilege, not a right. It is something that a person is
allowed to do under a certain set of circumstances. This may be a license or
it may be permission from another party or just a lack of objection. Rights
and privileges are not interchangeable terms.

"99windstar" wrote ...
You do have rights but your right to smoke inside...


On the contrary, you have a right to put whatever you want in your
body, because you own yourself. Because you own yourself, you have
certain unalienable rights (rights from which you cannot be separated)
to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This is the basis of a
free society.

If you do not own yourself, then there is no such thing as rights.
Everything is a privelege. This is the basis of a totalitarian
society.

We have long been headed in the direction of totalitarianism. For our
own good, of course.

_______________________________

Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike
conservatives who are dictators and thieves.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:32:09 -0400, "JoKing"
wrote:


Therefore its okay to push me outdoors regardless of weather, and to
force me to pay outrageous taxes?

Um...well, yes it is.


Um... well, no it isn't.

_______________________________

Liberals are thieves and dictators, unlike
conservatives who are dictators and thieves.